Question for Pagans that don't worship a deity

[Eowyn513]

Hello~

I have been wondering about this for quite some time: I am Pagan, (Eclectic but heavily leaning towards Wicca and Druidism) but I do not believe in or worship a specific deity. I guess I'm more of a Pantheist or Animist. What I'm wondering is, If I want to do any spells, chants, rituals, prayers or whatever.... what should I be 'talking' to? Wiccans may call upon the Goddess and God, other Pagans call upon or talk to their deity of choice, but If I don't have one, can I still do rituals? Can I still do things like spells asking for guidance if I'm not asking anyone in particular? If so, how should I go about this?

Sorry if this question doesn't make sense or is worded strangely... I hope someone can help me here. I really want to do rituals and prayers but not worshiping a deity is making things really confusing >.<

[Quantum Witch]

I'm a similar eclectic pagan. I'm sort of a soft-poly-pantheist (ie: I see all gods as archetypes, which are part of a whole energy which is the universe). I speak to the universe as a whole most of the time. I see that there is a universal consciousness, an aware thread of energy, which knows when I'm attempting to invoke/draw energy down from it.

If you're looking for a personification to speak to, I'd suggest you take a look at soft-polytheism. I tend to view deities, and use them occasionally, as conduits for specific energy in the Universe. But you do not need a deity to do rituals or magick. Guidance is harder, I'll admit, but I meditate in an attempt to reach pranayama, to get away from the breathe and the mundane and find the link to the collective unconsciousness. Inevitably, after reaching sa ham breathing, and coming back down, I almost always feel better.

But I think Universe can guide you too. I also believe in, what I call, universal constructs. It's hard to describe, but I personally see it as any noun you feel the urge to capitalize. Things like Justice, Karma, Cosmic Irony, Love, things you feel the impact from as you live your life. Perhaps you can define constructs of your own with, I use them very similarly to how I use the archetypes and deities. Although there's less personification involved, it's about asking for a specific kind of energy instead of whatever is available.

I would ultimately suggest looking into Carl Jung's work. As a non-theist pagan, I find it immensely helpful. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a psychologist by trade! I read Jung long before I even took a psychology class, and he's probably influenced my path about as much as Cunningham.

[herbal_legends]

I'm a pantheist Witch/Wiccan (that follows the philosophies of the Tao) and I pretty much speak to the entire Universe as a whole instead of specifically to a deity. If I'm looking for guidance I look towards my ancestors or the spirits inhabiting my area.

I do acknowledge the ebb and flow, ying and yang, etc. energies of the Universe but that's as far as it goes for me. It's hard for me to imagine those energies personified so I don't even bother going there.

[Benvarry]

Lately I've taken to talking to "the spirits of X" (X being my city). If you're more of an animist/pantheist, it makes more sense to me to relate to the local divine forces rather than some god/dess from a distant place and time. I'm a committed atheist, though, so you probably shouldn't listen to me. :mmm:

[Umbress]

Hello~

I have been wondering about this for quite some time: I am Pagan, (Eclectic but heavily leaning towards Wicca and Druidism) but I do not believe in or worship a specific deity. I guess I'm more of a Pantheist or Animist. What I'm wondering is, If I want to do any spells, chants, rituals, prayers or whatever.... what should I be 'talking' to? Wiccans may call upon the Goddess and God, other Pagans call upon or talk to their deity of choice, but If I don't have one, can I still do rituals? Can I still do things like spells asking for guidance if I'm not asking anyone in particular? If so, how should I go about this?

Sorry if this question doesn't make sense or is worded strangely... I hope someone can help me here. I really want to do rituals and prayers but not worshiping a deity is making things really confusing >.<

You have already received some excellent responses but I when I read your post the first thing I wondered is what do you personally believe??

Do you believe deities exist - Do you see them as existing outside of yourself??

Do you believe in the spiritual realm??? - It may sound like I am asking you the same question but spiritual beings are not necessarily gods/goddesses. I am what is called a spiritual atheist - I believe in the spiritual realm and I believe there are specific individual spirits but I do not believe in a deity as most define the term I have a hermetic view of a universal creator. All is a basic reference to a creator of every thing but is undefinable, indescribable, unknowable yet exist in all things.

I use a daemonic hierarchy but that is a personal preference - Angelic ancestor references along with already mentions local energies and elemental forces will also work as reference points.

If you prefer a god/goddess figure the pantheons are plentifully however if you take more of an agnostic stance you may relate best to the term "ALL" If you are an atheist they see deity in terms of archetypes as already described


What will work best for you depends upon what you as a person believe, so the first step in my opinion is to ask yourself what do you truly believe - the beauty and the struggle in eclectic paganism is the freedom to pick and choose from a multitude of choices.

I felt like I was in a spiritual free fall for a long time but I don't know that is a common feeling or not. I figured I probably felt this way because the only previous spiritual references I had been exposed to were those of organized religions where I was given predefined beliefs in out line form.

[Sundragon]

Though I have a couple of deities I have an affinity for and have had experiences with I don't worship any small "g" god. I respect and love them, but I see no need to worship them.

However I do have a devotional practice to the God, Goddess and, for lack of a better term, Great Spirit as the overarching Deity at the heart of all things. The three are actually One. I do direct worship to this Ultimate Reality in the realization that I, along with everything else, is It.

My time spent studying Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist thought has strongly influenced my perception of deity...along with my own experiences of course.

However, one could, if one chooses see a goddess like, for example, Isis as the Absolute with excellent effect. It is common in Hindu practice to choose a god and see that God as an icon of the Absolute so one can develop a deeper relationship with It. It's just much easier to have love for something one can relate to than it is to love some amorphus...Reality, Divine Mind, Consciousness, Awareness, or what have you.


)o( Blessed Be,

Sundragon

[electricpeppers]

I have been wondering about this for quite some time: I am Pagan, (Eclectic but heavily leaning towards Wicca and Druidism) but I do not believe in or worship a specific deity. I guess I'm more of a Pantheist or Animist. What I'm wondering is, If I want to do any spells, chants, rituals, prayers or whatever.... what should I be 'talking' to? Wiccans may call upon the Goddess and God, other Pagans call upon or talk to their deity of choice, but If I don't have one, can I still do rituals? Can I still do things like spells asking for guidance if I'm not asking anyone in particular? If so, how should I go about this?

I'm a commited Polytheist and animist so I have no idea who or what a panetheist would pray to. Nature? Is the divine pantheistic force in the world concious? Does it even need prayers? Is it worthy of your worship? Is it even reachable? Does this matter to you? Things to consider.

What do you mean by 'rituals?' Wiccan rituals involve the God and Goddess of that Wiccan or Coven or the generic 'God and Goddess' of neo-Wicca. If you're not interested in deity you obviously can't perform one in that context. There are 'rituals', for example, in reconstructionist religions that involve worship of Gods and sacrifice. Obviously again, not the sort you'll be doing. You can certainly do 'rituals', but I'm not sure what these would encompass. If you consider yourself Pagan I'm sure you can send out a prayer that calls for guidance from nature -- in ancient times the reading of omens and auguries in nature were widely practiced. What to 'you' is ritual?

Animism is the belief in many spirits inhabiting the world around you. Therefore it would be worth your time to seek out your personal spirit, or even those of the land you inhabit. Nothing need aid you in spellcraft (you can perform magic totally by yourself) but once you develop a personal relationship with your ancestors, land spirirts or personal spirit one of these beings may well help you.

It does sounds to me a little like you want to do these things because you feel like you should be doing them? I don't know but your post seems a little unsure... I would advise some examination of your beliefs and just stop worrying about technical practice! Developing your worldview will help and things will come together more :). Perhaps write down what you believe in on a sheet of paper. I did the same a while back -- its amazing how disorganised our minds can be. I wrote down what I believed and defined all the main facets of my beliefs and worldview. The OCD nut in me found it very satisfying.

[Eowyn513]

Thanks so much everyone for your help... I guess you guys are right.. I do need to take some time to figure out exactly what it is I believe. I like the idea that someone posted above, of actually trying to write it all down. I'll give that a shot and get back to you guys. In the meantime, more replies are always welcome~ :hahugh:

[Windsmith]

When I do spells, they are directed to and at one being and one being only: me. I believe that spells are a form of poetic psychology, in which I engage my body and all of my senses to bring change in myself. I might on rare occasions call in a deity or other spirit, but that is merely to invoke the part of myself that I feel they represent. So, if I need to rejuice my art, I might call to Brigid, but I will usually call specifically on "Brigid-within", the part of me that tends the well of my creative energy and the forge of my creative process.

For me, rituals are much more about observance and acknowledging. I'm not "talking to" anyone, not asking anyone for anything, not lauding the work of some unseen (and unbelieved-in) deity. I'm just being, and reveling in that being. There's a novel by Robin Hobb called Fool's Fate, in which one of the characters talks about there only being "one true prayer", and that prayer is "Yes." That is the ultimate prayer, a simple and whole-beinged acknowledgement of life and acceptance of all it offers. That's what rituals are to me: slightly more elaborate versions of that prayer.

[Shanti]

My own true self! Our spirit energy is strong enough to manifest us. If it can manifest reality in physical from it sure can do more.
For me, I cant see why people go outside of themselves as much as they do when they themselves are the same stuff the universe is made of with the same energies included. You are the universal energy.
Your body, your identity, is only a temporary bio shelter. Your true self is the universal energy that is temporarily residing in the region of your body. Use your own energy, your own spirit. Your spirit is here for you, what else better to call on in your workings?
We are not separate from the universal energies/spirits. We all are the universal energy spirit.
Just as we are all one in nature, made from the same pond scum and star dust, we are also one in spirit energy.
You are the tree, the wind, the sun. You are everything, not separate. (you in a general sense of the word as in mankind)

Thats my perspective. Not meant to belittle or change another. Just my personal view of matters from my mind. :weirdsmil
Its is one perspective in a world of many.
Think about and choose only those things you agree with and toss out the rest. :)

[herbal_legends]

My own true self! Our spirit energy is strong enough to manifest us. If it can manifest reality in physical from it sure can do more.
For me, I cant see why people go outside of themselves as much as they do when they themselves are the same stuff the universe is made of with the same energies included. You are the universal energy.
Your body, your identity, is only a temporary bio shelter. Your true self is the universal energy that is temporarily residing in the region of your body. Use your own energy, your own spirit. Your spirit is here for you, what else better to call on in your workings?
We are not separate from the universal energies/spirits. We all are the universal energy spirit.
Just as we are all one in nature, made from the same pond scum and star dust, we are also one in spirit energy.
You are the tree, the wind, the sun. You are everything, not separate. (you in a general sense of the word as in mankind)

Thats my perspective. Not meant to belittle or change another. Just my personal view of matters from my mind. :weirdsmil
Its is one perspective in a world of many.
Think about and choose only those things you agree with and toss out the rest. :)

:thumbsup:

[Cool Music Guy]

First of all, what an excellent question for discussion and...

Secondly, what awesome replies...:thumbsup:


I must say that I am a little bit intimidated by the quality of responses given in this post, but I'll go ahead and post my humble response anyway, even though it may not be quite as good as many of the others given in this thread.

Okay...

I define the god and goddess forces as the metaphysical or spiritual energies that permeate the cosmos that are manipulated by intelligent forces that drive them. These energies can be percieved as personified anthropomorphic entities, as daemonic (not evil or good - merely spirit-based) entities that can be perceived in a number of ways, or as genuine energy waves that can be legitimately measured by scientific means (radio waves, gamma rays, etc.) Also remember that there are probably a plethora of more subtle energy manifestations that will be detectable in the future as our science progresses. These manifestations, although undetectable scientifically at our current point in history are very real and affect our very lives even though we haven't been able to detect them yet.

I'm not saying that these raw energies that emanate from the heavenly bodies and our humanly bodies are all there is...

What I'm saying is that real intelligence that we can only speculate about could be using these scientifically measurable energies in their day to day activities.

So when casting spells, saying prayers, or attempting to manipulate any type of astral or ethereal energy, one would seem to have three choices...

A. Try to manipulate these actual energies themselves with one's own intelligence or...

B. Ask for assistance from external intelligence sources (either corporeal or non-corporeal)

C. A combination of these two approaches.


In my paradigm, there are no atheists or agnostics. Everybody is a spiritual entity whether wish to admit it or not. Science and religion are not opposed at all and exist together in perfect harmony. Animists, Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, and Agnostics are all exactly the same in my belief paradigm.

There is no separation in my world.

[cheddarsox]

As usual, stumbling late into a discussion...

I am a long practicing pantheist. I enjoy and benefit from the rituals that are a part of my path.

As a pantheist, I understand the Universe to be the Dynamic Process, and myself and everything else to be functions of that Dynamic Process. My human nature is a function of the Dynamic Process, and it is part of human nature to find comfort and inspiration through ritual.

The Universe doesn't need nor does it care if I do or do not do ritual. I do them for my own benefit. Many rituals are psychological short cuts. I create a situation that be past experience I believe will put me into state of mind that I find condusive to spirituality. Humans create rituals that shortcut them to certain mental and emotional states. A very common one, and useful example is the birthday cake/candles/wish ritual.
No deity is necessary, but it is a simple, powerful ritual.

Similarly my pantheist rituals are not focused on a deity. They are shortcuts into my own subconscious, my own spiritual state of mind. My decorated and lit altar helps me tune out certain aspects of life and focus on others so I can get real honest and real grateful, and real hopeful.

I do not have a deity, but I will tell you I worship the Sun. I did not one day decide to worship the Sun, I just came to the realization that I do. I don't consider it a god, or to have a personality. I worship it exactly as it presents itself, and for the role it plays. I did not choose to worship it. worship is the response it draws out of me. I think worship is a human response to certain stimuli. It's like crying when hurt, or laughing when tickled. When I am in awe, I worship. It's something that I feel rushing up inside me, all by itself. I don't have to call it forth, I don't need ritual to call it forth. It just happens.

So, the Sun, due to my total awe and gratitude for it, has become a focus. Much of my art involves the Sun. I have a great deal of Sun jewelry. I write prayers about the Sun...and prayers of praise TO the Sun, because I feel good when I don't squelch my feelings about it. The Sun doesn't care that I worship it, but worshiping it brings me delight and frees my spirit. So I do it.

I do find meditations about the Sun to inspire me.

If you take a look at patterns, etc, in your life, behavior, feelings and beliefs, you may find that you have some aspect that speaks more deeply to you than others. That calls forth a deep awe inside you. And that can be a key or focal point in ritual.

I don't ask the Sun to do things for me, because seriously, what more could I ask from it? That alone is a huge spiritual truth for me. When I really start to think about things...my only prayer ever is to myself, to allow myself to see and experience the awesomeness of reality. My prayer is for me to stop missing the bounty that is already mine.

In the past few years I have truly begun to understand worship. I used to wonder what was going on when I saw people moved to tears at the thought of their deity. Or see people live with incredible strength and purpose that they said came from their faith. When I was trying to force a faith in something I didn't truly believe in, I never had that experience. But now that I have identified what truly moves and inspires me, I understand what I saw those others feel and what they mean when they say their faith is what gets them through. I have that in my life now.

Those religious aspects of human nature are not silly, they are a natural function of the Dynamic Process. People are programmed to have those interests, needs and responses to things. For many years I felt conflicted because many pantheists poo poo such things, preferring a scientific logical approach and saying that we don't NEED all that. Well, I find I DO need all that. I'm human, it's my birth right, it helps me find strength and joy in my life. I don't apologize for it.

[Eowyn513]

Wow... These responses have all been incredibly beautiful and inspirational. A few of them have answered questions that have been troubling me that I didn't even know were there! I finally get it now... for me, the best thing would be to do a ritual to bring out the best in myself, and only myself. To be able to look within the physical barrier between my soul and the rest of the universe and realize the beauty and magic within myself, to help me with everything from having strength to connecting with the Moon, which is for me almost as strong as the Sun is for Cheddarsox :) I still have a lot of learning and practicing to do... but Yule coming up is a perfect time to get started~

Thanks everyone~~~ :thumbsup:

[miromanyth]

Always start with yourself. I don't mean see yourself as Deity - I mean start changing yourself into someone who could cope with the given situation better. Almost 9 times out of 10, I find the problem starts with myself and my own perceptions of things. It helps to remember that NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, feels the same way about Deity.
I fully support the notion that all things are part of a greater whole. We are all a mechanism in a great and fantastic universal machine. I doubt Gods, and favor a oneness that transcends Humanity's baseness. In the end we will find that whatever is the most simple reasoning will be the most true and fruitful.
Call the God what you will, ultimately it is personal responsibility. You'll find that all the Gods in mythology favor those who choose a personal path of personal responsibility.
Be yourself. Be true to yourself. Love yourself and everything you come into contact with. Distrust fear and trust an open mind and open heart.

[Æon Flux]

A lot of Atheist witches will talk to themselves, their "inner" self or "higher" self, depending on the circumstance of their level of spirituality.

Starting with yourself is always a good advice, in all areas of life for people of all believes or disbelieves. Learning about yourself and learning how to celebrate yourself and who you actually are is something most people ought to do more of. I think that really adds to ones "inner power". Be it on a spiritual or psychological level.

[TheGreatGarfield]

This is a very helpful topic, and it has answered questions that I had needed answered and artucuulating ideas and concepts that I couldn't articulate so well, as well as enlightened me.

[Eowyn513]

This is a very helpful topic, and it has answered questions that I had needed answered and artucuulating ideas and concepts that I couldn't articulate so well, as well as enlightened me.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one with this question... and I'm very glad it helped you! You're right, the answers given here have been incredibly helpful and enlightening.

-Blessings~

[adrasteashadow]

We are not separate from the universal energies/spirits. We all are the universal energy spirit.
Just as we are all one in nature, made from the same pond scum and star dust, we are also one in spirit energy.


I agree!

Eowyn, I was also very confused and intimated trying first trying to somehow find/define my Path. In the late 90's, as a teen, I got into Wicca but it just didn't feel right to me. I gave up and just called myself agnostic while still occasionally dabbiling in magick. Eventually, I lost interest I thought I needed some "higher being/s" to assist me in be a successful witch.


Anyway, now I'm 30 and I feel confortable and yet challenged by where I am at on my Path. I believe everything in the universe contains some sort of spirit energy or soul, and I also believe that we are all part of a Divine whole and I have reverence for the Universe rather than for any creator being or personal God. Also, I acknowledge my ancestoral gods NOT as mindful Beings (power to punish, make decisons or answer prayers) but as personifications of natural forces or psychological archetypes.




I would ultimately suggest looking into Carl Jung's work. As a non-theist pagan, I find it immensely helpful..... he's probably influenced my path about as much as Cunningham.

huge 2nd!

[~*Sacred*~]

Before I had any deities (I didn't want any either, but they came to me nonetheless) I looked to the Divine (Universal Energy). When doing spells and rituals I focused on the energy in me, and the good energy in mankind and the energy from the Divine. I work w/ emotions and colors when doing spellwork or rituals. I do the same now, however it's more specific since I have deities, but it's still the same concept :)

[omar]

I agree wiyh the Cool Music Guy. God is a life force of pure raw" thinking enegy". It has both male & female, positive & negative & is light & aethyr. Everything is conected so there is no seperation. I refere to God as the "infinet bieng,Great Spirit, self creator or White Light"

[tigress42]

i'm in a similar situation - i feel basically like a non-thiest/animist, that the divine is in everything - all plants and animals are important/special. so if i pray or meditate for guidence... usually i say goddess - for me, meaning mother nature. because even though i dont really have a specific diety in mind, i think there some sort of force in the universe that connects everything - or minds, animals... (oy, i kind of sound like a jedi now)...
i'm really just starting on my path tho so i havnt gotten everything figured out - keeping a journal on what you figured while meditation would be good, i need to start that as well

good luck
blessed be

[Cindlady2]

Call upon who/what ever represents the attributes you need or are looking for at the time. I don't believe in deities per say either. However, I do believe in energies. I also feel that we are creatures that need to label and classify everything, and we need to "put faces" (be it human or animal) on things. Deities help us relate to certain types of energy. Magic is learning to manipulate specific energies. If it helps to put a label or "face" on that energy... go for it!

[Sylver]

I don't have much to add that hasn't been answered already (very, very well), but. This is kind of a comforting thread to come across. I didn't really know there were so many people even here who looked at the universe/god/whatever as not specific deities, but... something else. I love the idea of soft poly-pantheism, and. That just makes sense. I needed to see that tonight.