Cross Circle Symbol

[Eyeris]

Hello, I am trying to do research on a symbol. It is something like this;

http://singinghorse.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=73

I believe it is Native American in origin. Can anyone help me expound on this symbol? What it's proper name is? What nation does it come from? Are there any other color-combination's or variations of this symbol? Where can I find relevant information?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

It looks like a Medicine Wheel closed in. Ther four colors are pretty much the same as it applies to the four races of man, ie red, yellow, black and white. Sun Bear's version seem's the closet to what you are indicating but the Medicine Wheel is a common feature in many of the Nations lore.

http://www.ewebtribe.com/StarSpiderDancing/wheel.html

[Phoenix_Falls]

It looks like a Medicine Wheel closed in. Ther four colors are pretty much the same as it applies to the four races of man, ie red, yellow, black and white. Sun Bear's version seem's the closet to what you are indicating but the Medicine Wheel is a common feature in many of the Nations lore.

http://www.ewebtribe.com/StarSpiderDancing/wheel.html

Just a note, "Sun Bear" aka Vincent LaDuke is what's known as a "plastic shaman." He's a fraud and has been called out numerous times. He's listed on this site:
http://newagefraud.org/ Which is a *VERY* reputable source for checking on people's claims to Native teachings/ancestry/whathaveyou and anyone making claims as a Medicine Person should be checked against the forum which is comprised of Natives and non-Natives alike who are committed to preserving *real* indigenous beliefs around the world. Although, most pretendians appropriate Native North American tribes, they document those spreading falsities about Central/South American tribes, Greenland, Russia, and dubious claims about other places as well.


Here's a link to the specific thread about "Sun Bear's Medicine Wheel"
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2727.0

Here's a link about Vincent LaDuke/"Sun Bear" specifically and the lies he has told, the claims he has made, not to mention the crimes he's committed:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2420.0

LaDuke has made up a lot of things about Native culture to appeal to the masses. He's actually one of the forerunners of the whole New Age Shmanistic movement. The problem with that being, he makes a lot of stuff up as he goes, including the meaning of the medicine wheel.

It's important to note that the medicine wheel doesn't always represent the "four colors of man"

It can, but this isn't its core meaning. Some tribes don't even have black as a fourth color, they have blue or even substitute blue for white. Some use green instead of black or red. Even tribes in South America have medicine wheels.

What the medicine wheel represents is also going to be different for different tribes. There are some basic beliefs about it that are more or less universal (at least in North America) which are:

-Harmony. The medicine wheel is generally made of four basic colors in a circle, reminding us that everything is connected and everything Creator does is circular.

-Seasons. There are four seasons, four colors. In my tribe, white is winter, red is fall, black is summer and yellow is spring. This doesn't mean that it represents those seasons for every tribe.

-Directions/Four stages of life.
oEast. The yellow sun rises in the east, it's a new day. It would represent yellow and young people/children as they are "new people"
oWest. Black is the color of warpaint, the Rocky Mountains, the Black Hills. It's representative of warriors and adult men
oNorth. White. Years turn hair white, the winter is a time for wisdom, it's also white, this is representative of our grandparents (elders)
oSouth. Red. Red is one of the most sacred colors. It's the color of earth-clay used to make the paint (Mother Earth's blood). It's representative of our adult mothers and sisters
oCircular. The medicine wheel is in a circle because even though these four directions go different places, they're all still connected (although some tribes see the circle as representing "up" and "down" as well)

The colors are kept basic so that they can "harmonize" with each other. White opposite of black and red opposite of yellow.

The traditional meaning of the medicine wheel didn't include "skin color" or "race" until the recently. That's not to say that the medicine wheel CAN'T represent it, just that saying it ONLY represents that is a gross simplification that many Natives feel is racist.

Sorry for the longwinded post, but I'm HUGE into Native rights and misinformation and appropriation is really important to me. I hope this information helped!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Just a note, "Sun Bear" aka Vincent LaDuke is what's known as a "plastic shaman." He's a fraud and has been called out numerous times. He's listed on this site..

That's what i've heard as well. One of the reasons I said it reminded me of Sun Bears wheel.

Thanks for the links, the ones I had have pretty much all gone off line now.

[Phoenix_Falls]

That's what i've heard as well. One of the reasons I said it reminded me of Sun Bears wheel.

Thanks for the links, the ones I had have pretty much all gone off line now.

No problem! The NAFPS has been around a loooooong time and they're legit enough not to quit running. It's an excellent site for anyone on a Shamanistic path and everyone on the forums is pretty friendly.

[wyrd_dottir]

Among Northern European traditions, the symbol is known as a sunwheel, specifically called a solar cross.

You can learn more about it here:

http://www.patheos.com/community/paganportal/2010/05/20/wyrd-designs-understanding-the-symbols-part-4-sunwheels-solar-crosses-swastikas/

It's found represented in a Norse Bronze Age depiction of the Sun.

But like many of the more basic type of symbols, it's not uncommon to find similar symbols in other cultures as well, that can be continents away.

[Eyeris]

Thank you everyone for all the information and resources!

:boing:thankyouthankyouthankyou!:boing:

[Sequoia]

I always thought that symbol simply was a common, multicultural representation of the sun. That's what first came to mind for me. :)

It's also a very basic and easy-to-independently-develop "symbol"... I mean, a circle, cut into quarters. Very, very basic. It's probably visible in native cultures around the world.

[Gaudior]

Just a note, "Sun Bear" aka Vincent LaDuke is what's known as a "plastic shaman."


Not to mention a dirty man and a rapist. It's too bad, because I was interested in his medicine wheel system at first.

My thought was that it also looks like a solar cross too :)

[Eyeris]

Not to mention a dirty man and a rapist. It's too bad, because I was interested in his medicine wheel system at first.

Agreed, no bueno. I read the links posted about him, that's horrible! I have seen plastic shamans and all that bs, but using it to take advantage of people in such a way? Unspeakable. :( His webpage is still up and running, do people NOT know this?!?!


My thought was that it also looks like a solar cross too :)

The symbol was part of a dream I had. Before the dream I have seen the equal sided encircled cross used as a solar cross in Europe, native wheels, cardinal directions, the 'Celtic cross' ect. In my dream the symbol had four colors (I don't remember what all the colors were...) arranged sort of like in the picture I posted. Which makes me feel like it might be from a tribe... if it was a cultural symbol in the dream at all. I find that the native information is the most hard to sort through and figure out what is authentic (Apparently, because of people like Sun Bear). But, more knowledge = better in my book. :hahugh:

I also found this (after all of your vocabulary help :)) http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/291.html pretty informative, but it doesn't say anything about it's tribal origins. Harder to find :(.

According to this maybe in my dream it meant... "visibility is worsened by fog or dust" :shift:

[Phoenix_Falls]

Not to mention a dirty man and a rapist. It's too bad, because I was interested in his medicine wheel system at first.

My thought was that it also looks like a solar cross too :)

It's deplorable, but this happens with A LOT of plastic shaman. They rope in people genuinely seeking the Red Road and give them a McSpirituality, fast tracking them with convoluted mushes of various tribal beliefs, European beliefs and made up stuff.

A lot of these weirdos will then go on to insisting on some kind of sexual rite. I've even heard of a guy who passed himself off as a "Lakota wisdom keeper" (whatever the eff that is) not only running co-ed Sweats (this is NEVER done in ANY tribe) and allowing menstruating women to Sweat (also NEVER done), but encouraging these people to masturbate in Sweat Lodge! It's disgusting.

Then, when real Natives (and non-Natives with some basic knowledge) come along and challenge these people, their followers have been so brainwashed that all of a sudden WE'RE the bad guys.

These people are dangerous. Not only for the misinformation and bad medicine they're doling out for $500+ a session or whatever, but because they prey on innocent people and running certain ceremonies incorrectly can and has resulted in death. Just a few years ago, there was a white guy claiming unverifiable ties to the Navajo who said that he was taught by nameless (always nameless) elders from the Navajo, Lakota, Ojibwe and Cherokee to spread his "knowledge" and prosthelytize to the masses. Three people died in his Sweats.

Real N.American Medicine People
-Don't charge for services and if they do, it's only to cover the cost of the materials for the ceremony they're performing for you and it usually amounts to pocket change.

-Will never ask you to perform any sexual act for spiritual purposes

-Will never be under the age of 45. Even then, they may still be apprenticing. There is no "I'm so spiritually powerful that I fast tracked" in Native societies. There are certain ceremonies and medicines that are age specific.

-Will be able to give you first and last (verifiable) names of the elders that taught them or gave them authority to conduct certain ceremonies. If they can't, or say their elders "wish to remain nameless," they're lying.

-Will not prosthelytize or encourage it. This is not a Native way of thinking or doing things.

-Will be able to verify claims of being from a certain tribe. Ask them for their enrollment number, it's not like a social security number so it's safe to give out.

-Will NEVER mix various Native and non-Native practices into a miasma of New Age Whatsit, Hollywood Native practices and stuff pulled out of the clear blue sky.

It's sad that people are so easily mislead these days. There are so many people that romanticize the hell out of Natives and Native culture that when presented with the real thing, they prefer the romanticization which is dangerous spiritually and physically.

lol sorry about the rant! Like I said, I'm passionate about this =P

[Phoenix_Falls]

Agreed, no bueno. I read the links posted about him, that's horrible! I have seen plastic shamans and all that bs, but using it to take advantage of people in such a way? Unspeakable. :( His webpage is still up and running, do people NOT know this?!?!



The symbol was part of a dream I had. Before the dream I have seen the equal sided encircled cross used as a solar cross in Europe, native wheels, cardinal directions, the 'Celtic cross' ect. In my dream the symbol had four colors (I don't remember what all the colors were...) arranged sort of like in the picture I posted. Which makes me feel like it might be from a tribe... if it was a cultural symbol in the dream at all. I find that the native information is the most hard to sort through and figure out what is authentic (Apparently, because of people like Sun Bear). But, more knowledge = better in my book. :hahugh:

I also found this (after all of your vocabulary help :)) http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/291.html pretty informative, but it doesn't say anything about it's tribal origins. Harder to find :(.

According to this maybe in my dream it meant... "visibility is worsened by fog or dust" :shift:
It would be really difficult to find exactly what tribe it may have come from without knowing what the colors were or how the colors were oriented on the wheel. Even so, that would only give you a particular region for the most part. Blackfoot medicine wheels come in red, yellow, black, white; red, yellow, blue, white (adopted from the Lakota, I think) and rarely, green, yellow, black, white. You can honestly make a medicine wheel in any four colors (and people do, just check out the medicine wheels on a men's fancy dancer during powwow season. I've seen neon green, purple, white and neon blue wheels lol).

Like I said before, since the wheel can mean various things to various tribes, it's a little myopic to ascribe one meaning to it. While the meaning you found may be correct in terms of your dream, that's not the only think that it represents.

Do you remember anything else about the dream? Environment? Any other people? A language spoken? If there were any other people, how were they dressed? What specific details about their clothing can you remember? What made you think that the wheel was Native in origin rather than European or someplace else?

If you really and truly can't remember any of that, try meditating on it before you go to sleep and maybe you'll have the dream again. Keep a pen and paper next to your bed and the moment you wake up, write down everything you remember. Your handwriting may be a little garbled, but you remember the most about your dream the first thirty seconds upon waking. The more you write down your dreams, the more your brain thinks it's important to record dream information and you'll remember your dreams more.

[omar]

Hello, I am trying to do research on a symbol. It is something like this;

http://singinghorse.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=73

I believe it is Native American in origin. Can anyone help me expound on this symbol? What it's proper name is? What nation does it come from? Are there any other color-combination's or variations of this symbol? Where can I find relevant information? Not Nat. Amer. but Egyptian Gnostic Pagan, sun on a cross a referance to the Zodiac. The Gnostics are not Christian but the Chrisatians think they are because they believe in one God. A Christian believes in the resurection of Jesus, the Gnostics was around 600 years before Jesus was born.

[Daecon]

It's a simple graphic, so it shouldn't be surprising that it has multiple origins and meanings. That same cross in a circle can mean the Earth, the Sun, the planet Venus, a king, a wheel, the four compass points, the four elements, the metal copper (in alchemy) the halo of a saint or angel, or even "dense fog may reduce visibility" to a meteorologist.