Intelligence, species and spirtuality.

[Shanti]

Do you think spirituality is limited to those of higher intelligence such as humans? What about deity, limited for higher intelligent beings?
Do you think lower intelligent beings are aware of any spirituality and/or deity?

If you believe in life on other planets what do you think the role of spirituality may play there compared to here on earth and us humans? Would gods be different and why? Would spirit be different to another being on a different planet than here?

And energy. Many of us are familiar with many different aspects of energy. Some of us work with energy for many reasons. How does that energy we are familiar with relate to other species of lower intelligence than us? Are those creatures aware of the energies we are aware of?
What about other planetary lives in other worlds? Would they have access to the same energy we have on earth?

Please share any of your thoughts! :)

[Tanya]

I think all things and all life has a spiritual content to it...and are part of the spirituality of the universe. If there is life on other planets, (which I think is statisically likely) then of course they too are part of it all.

[Tiberias]

Do you think spirituality is limited to those of higher intelligence such as humans? What about deity, limited for higher intelligent beings?
Do you think lower intelligent beings are aware of any spirituality and/or deity?

If you believe in life on other planets what do you think the role of spirituality may play there compared to here on earth and us humans? Would gods be different and why? Would spirit be different to another being on a different planet than here?

And energy. Many of us are familiar with many different aspects of energy. Some of us work with energy for many reasons. How does that energy we are familiar with relate to other species of lower intelligence than us? Are those creatures aware of the energies we are aware of?
What about other planetary lives in other worlds? Would they have access to the same energy we have on earth?

Please share any of your thoughts! :)

There is as of yet no evidence (despite rather vigorous searching) that any other species has the capacity for complicated symbolic thought. Given that, I'm extremely dubious of the notion that any other species on Earth has notions of spirituality and the divine. They're simply biologically incapable.

[Tobias]

As humans, I imagine, we have the unique ability in the animal kingdom of being able to deny the existence of the spiritual realm. :thumbsup:


I remember some time ago watching my cat as she was getting ready to give birth. I could sense a spiritual moment when the information necessary was downloaded into her, of what she needed to do to prepare for the immediate arrival of her kittens. It was almost like that which we call instinct is really the voices of spirits guiding the living in how they should behave! Within minutes she made her way into the safe nesting spot we had helped her prepare, and the kittens were born.

I think the animals are connected with the spirit world in ways that we can barely comprehend. If my theory that spirit and physical matter are somehow interconnected, then inorganic materials also have a spiritual content to them as well. It's rather difficult to discuss the spiritual life of a rock, though! I think to pretty much every other chunk of matter besides ourselves, spirituality just is. We as humans over think pretty much everything, and have found a way to separate spirituality from the rest of our existence.

[Shanti]

r
There is as of yet no evidence (despite rather vigorous searching) that any other species has the capacity for complicated symbolic thought. Given that, I'm extremely dubious of the notion that any other species on Earth has notions of spirituality and the divine. They're simply biologically incapable.
Let me share a true story.
My dog Toad was born in my home. So he was with us from birth.
We had a campsite we leased yearly on an island on Lake Sinissippi, Wi.
We drove there, to our boat on the mainland, every weekend from the time Toad was born. Toad and his mom and sister always went with us.
Toad loved car, van actually, and boat rides.
One day when Toad was 4 we packed up from the island, took our boat and headed to the mainland to go home.
Toad always jumped from the boat right to the van and hopped in there. This day was different. He wouldnt leave the boat! He shook and cowardice down and wouldnt move. Never did Toad ever behave this way.
After a short while we couldn't wait for Toad to get over himself so i had to pick him up and carry him to the van. The darn dog turned and jumped right back out of the van and into the boat!!! Ok really wrong for this dog!!
I didnt know what to do other than lock him in the van so we could get the boat covered up and leave. So I did just that.
We left. Several miles down the road a driver of a truck pulling a cabin cruiser ran a stop and crashed into us. No serious injuries but Toad never again behaved that way! Never. I know he knew that accident was coming. He acted that way only once and that was the day of that accident. Everything for Toad was normal again after that.
There was no way he knew something was going to happen several miles down the road with his biological senses. He didnt smell an accident coming. Its wasnt an earth quake animals can sense.
So if you ask me, science and biology, which is my thing too, can not explain everything and thus are flawed in that aspect.
I know there are plenty of unexplained animal stories out there too.

How do you know spirit can not commune with an animal on a level us intellectuals just dont grasp? How do you know that maybe our intellect and brain development may actually impede some spiritual connections we are not aware of?

Spirit, energy, deity, doesn't even have a biological brain and they do very well. :)
Why does one even need a biological brain to be intune to those things?
I am a spirit inside flesh. My brain is only one aspect of the I.

[Tiberias]

r
Let me share a true story.
My dog Toad was born in my home. So he was with us from birth.
We had a campsite we leased yearly on an island on Lake Sinissippi, Wi.
We drove there, to our boat on the mainland, every weekend from the time Toad was born. Toad and his mom and sister always went with us.
Toad loved car, van actually, and boat rides.
One day when Toad was 4 we packed up from the island, took our boat and headed to the mainland to go home.
Toad always jumped from the boat right to the van and hopped in there. This day was different. He wouldnt leave the boat! He shook and cowardice down and wouldnt move. Never did Toad ever behave this way.
After a short while we couldn't wait for Toad to get over himself so i had to pick him up and carry him to the van. The darn dog turned and jumped right back out of the van and into the boat!!! Ok really wrong for this dog!!
I didnt know what to do other than lock him in the van so we could get the boat covered up and leave. So I did just that.
We left. Several miles down the road a driver of a truck pulling a cabin cruiser ran a stop and crashed into us. No serious injuries but Toad never again behaved that way! Never. I know he knew that accident was coming. He acted that way only once and that was the day of that accident. Everything for Toad was normal again after that.
There was no way he knew something was going to happen several miles down the road with his biological senses. He didnt smell an accident coming. Its wasnt an earth quake animals can sense.
So if you ask me, science and biology, which is my thing too, can not explain everything and thus are flawed in that aspect.
I know there are plenty of unexplained animal stories out there too.


Our brains have an amazing capacity for finding patterns and drawing connections. Even when none exist.


How do you know spirit can not commune with an animal on a level us intellectuals just dont grasp? How do you know that maybe our intellect and brain development may actually impede some spiritual connections we are not aware of?

I don't. But neither does anyone else here. Under those conditions, a positive attribution of non-human spirituality is intellectually irresponsible.:) Besides which, while a cat or a frog or a fern may, in fact, be privy to some sort of spiritual communication, the fact that none of those organisms has the ability to understand symbols or project full agency equivalent with their own to other organisms strongly suggests that not only would those organisms be unable to recognize the communication as anything other than an input of data, but they would be totally incapable of understanding a notion like "deity".


Spirit, energy, deity, doesn't even have a biological brain and they do very well. :)
Why does one even need a biological brain to be intune to those things?
I am a spirit inside flesh. My brain is only one aspect of the I.

In your opinion, sure. Of course, we don't all have the same conception of "spirit". And I'd suggest that the existence of a spirit and its nature don't affect fundamental neurology in any event.:)

[Tobias]

I don't. But neither does anyone else here. Under those conditions, a positive attribution of non-human spirituality is intellectually irresponsible.:) Besides which, while a cat or a frog or a fern may, in fact, be privy to some sort of spiritual communication, the fact that none of those organisms has the ability to understand symbols or project full agency equivalent with their own to other organisms strongly suggests that not only would those organisms be unable to recognize the communication as anything other than an input of data, but they would be totally incapable of understanding a notion like "deity".



But they would conceivably be able to experience deity; something which we humans typically use our intellects to rationalize and twist the details of the encounter, to the point of completely misunderstanding it's entire purpose.

If encounters with deities and other overseeing spirits is a regular occurrence for those of us living on this planet, then they are nothing remarkable. They become a regular part of our lives. Animals would take each of these encounters for just what they are. Those who adjust their actions according to the message received would find real life advantages (like continued survival), while those who ignore them would fail to benefit from the knowledge offered.

Or for those guided by malevolent spirits, not listening may be the key to happiness and survival.

[Circe3]

I think we are all of the same essence/energy of the universe and everything in the universe shares in that essence therefore yes the animals and any other lifeforms on other planets do too. I do not know if animals are aware of it, they haven't shown it in any way we can see but who knows.

[~Runa~]

I think there is a universal energy, and a life force that connects every living being. Some of that energy might not all be the same.

[Eyeris]

The cat story is interesting. To offer the opposition my friends dog had puppies and defiantly did *not* know what was going on. Her mommy instincts kicked in afterwards, however.

I don't discount the possibility that plants or animals have higher sentience than we do. Science is finding that trees network with each other, and animal behavior is often unexplainable by humans (i.e. Shanti's dog). It's hard for us to tell because we don't speak their language/they don't speak ours. Gorillas are learning sign language and taking I.Q. tests, octopi pass intelligence tests that monkey's can't, dolphins are intelligent... however, this is all humans can do to test intelligent by our own standards. We look for human-like qualities and behaviors in other species. There is also the possibility that they don't *care* if we think they are smart or not. Or like in the Hitchhikers guide... the mice are experimenting on *us*!

[RubyFire]

that have died, I think that it's possible that more animals are aware of death than current science tells us; I've read someplace that when an animal is sick and dying the pack turns against them, that could be a way to lessen the sadness of losing a packmate. Wolves have been documented mourning the loss of the lowest ranking wolf, the scapegoat.
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf063/sf063b11.htm "If you chop into a tree, you can see that adjacent trees put out an electrical pulse," said Wagner. "This indicates that they communicated directly."

[Umbress]

Our brains have an amazing capacity for finding patterns and drawing connections. Even when none exist.

They also use that same capacity to dismiss connections that do actually exist.




I don't. But neither does anyone else here. Under those conditions, a positive attribution of non-human spirituality is intellectually irresponsible.:)

It can't possible be any more "intellectually irresponsible" than arguing some one else's reality and base it on science. Can't help but love the irony of it all




Besides which, while a cat or a frog or a fern may, in fact, be privy to some sort of spiritual communication, the fact that none of those organisms has the ability to understand symbols or project full agency equivalent with their own to other organisms strongly suggests that not only would those organisms be unable to recognize the communication as anything other than an input of data, but they would be totally incapable of understanding a notion like "deity".

This is one of my favorite parts


Conceptualization of above and below relationships by an insect (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/11/03/rspb.2010.1891.short)

The honeybee is thus capable of conceptual learning despite having a miniature brain, showing that such elaborated learning form is not a prerogative of vertebrates.


Bigger Brains Not Always Smarter (http://www.livescience.com/animals/091124-big-brains-not-better.html)

n fact, these models suggest that counting could be achieved with only a few hundred nerve cells and only a few thousand could be enough to generate consciousness.

Native intelligence (http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/43/native_intelligence/)

Some leaders of the scientific establishment acknowledge that new thinking is urgently needed as the gap between humans and other forms of life continues to shrink. "As we learn more and more about the behavioural capacities of animals, I think the zone of what we think of as uniquely human is gradually shrinking," observed Donald Kennedy, editor-in-chief of Science, at a neuroethics conference in 2002. "And as we learn more about how their brains work, it may well change our attitudes about how different we are from them, thus reducing our sense of being all that special. There's this awkward growth of knowledge. It might in the long run change our view of our place in the living world."






In your opinion, sure. Of course, we don't all have the same conception of "spirit". And I'd suggest that the existence of a spirit and its nature don't affect fundamental neurology in any event.:)

All that we as a species can perceive is not all there is to perceive.



This should serve as not only answers to assumptions regarding some one else's life experiences and the connected meanings my response should double as my answer to the initial post as well. I believe all of life in all the universe are one - we only think we are different due to the space time effect upon our perceptions.

Moral of the story {should one actually exist} Not all animist are uneducated morons!

[Tiberias]

They also use that same capacity to dismiss connections that do actually exist.

Ooookay...


It can't possible be any more "intellectually irresponsible" than arguing some one else's reality and base it on science. Can't help but love the irony of it all

Reality is reality. I don't have a reality that differs from yours. Only our perception of that reality differs. Science is a tool that lets us get at the reality behind those perceptions and assumptions.


This is one of my favorite parts


Conceptualization of above and below relationships by an insect (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/11/03/rspb.2010.1891.short)

The honeybee is thus capable of conceptual learning despite having a miniature brain, showing that such elaborated learning form is not a prerogative of vertebrates.


Bigger Brains Not Always Smarter (http://www.livescience.com/animals/091124-big-brains-not-better.html)

n fact, these models suggest that counting could be achieved with only a few hundred nerve cells and only a few thousand could be enough to generate consciousness.

Native intelligence (http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/43/native_intelligence/)

Some leaders of the scientific establishment acknowledge that new thinking is urgently needed as the gap between humans and other forms of life continues to shrink. "As we learn more and more about the behavioural capacities of animals, I think the zone of what we think of as uniquely human is gradually shrinking," observed Donald Kennedy, editor-in-chief of Science, at a neuroethics conference in 2002. "And as we learn more about how their brains work, it may well change our attitudes about how different we are from them, thus reducing our sense of being all that special. There's this awkward growth of knowledge. It might in the long run change our view of our place in the living world."




None of those articles demonstrates, or in fact even suggests, that non-human animals have either the capacity for symbolic thought or the ability to extend agency beyond themselves. So...what's your point?


All that we as a species can perceive is not all there is to perceive.

And speculating about what is around that we can't perceive is, by definition, pointless navel-gazing.


This should serve as not only answers to assumptions regarding some one else's life experiences and the connected meanings my response should double as my answer to the initial post as well. I believe all of life in all the universe are one - we only think we are different due to the space time effect upon our perceptions.

And there's the core issue here. Outcome bias.

[Gladeflower]

Interesting question.
And I dont think animals can have a spiritual life
Maybe they have a constant spiritual life. But its the relativity in not being in the present and being in the present which triggers so weird experiences.
I dont know what spirituality actually mean, but I dont think animals are so divided in the psyche as we are. And for me its the splitting and emerging of these sides in ourself which makes the cookie crumble.

[Twinkle]

The simple truth of the matter is that animals cannot intellectualize. They don't contemplate the universe, and so on. They don't have the ability to translate "signs" from the Universe and so on.

The exceptions could be the dolphin and the bonobo....The bonobo actually exhibits culture, which could be argued to also enhance some sort of spirituality.

But....neurological function in animals is what it is. Humans like to project our emotions on to them...but that's all it is...projection.