Is it really that wrong?

[U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya]

I know this girl who was my friend for a little while but then I found out that she was a lying,manipulative.Self centered,Egotistic,sl*ty B*tch who barely remembered my name...*Coughs*sorry about that,Back to the topic....Her and I hadn't spoken for a while now and it wasn't only because we(Thankfuly)go to different schools,It's also because she claims to be Christo-Pagan and even her claiming to be so is an insult to me even though I'm not a Christo-Pagan(Not that I have anything against them)she know nothing about anything other than at one point Pagans of all beliefs were hunted down and burned as 'Witches'.

Anyways,She came over for some reason and she happend to come in just as I was setting my altar back up(I recently had a bigger shelf/stand put in for it)and she took one look at what I was doing(Spreading these little diamonds on the 4 shelves w/ my candles on them) and gave me a horrified look.I ask her "Whats the matter?' she says "What are you doing?"I say"Setting my Altar up,Why?" she goes "No No,Thats not right.Why are you doing that?"

Me:"Doing what?"

Her:"Putting all those little Diamonds on it!"

Me:"Because I want to,It personalizes my Altar"

Her:"You can't personalize an Alter"

Me:"Why Not?'

Her:"Because the Altar is not for you,Its for you Deities!"

Me:"That may be true,But it is still MY Altar to them"

Her:"Doesn't matter,The altar should be completely about them,not about them w/ little bits and peices of you in it"

Me:"I thought you are supposed to build you Altar based on instinct"

Her:"You are,and your instinct should tell you that it's wrong to 'Personalize' the altar"

Me:"Well,Mine aren't"

Her:"Then you're going to suffer in Hell because you have made your worship tainted w/ selfishness,Unlike me."

Me:"*Cough*Yea Right*Cough* Just an FYI,Buttercup,I don't beleive in Heaven or Hell and do us all a favour by Droping the 'I'm so Wise and all knowing'Act,it's so annoying and gets you no where"

Her:"*Gasp*

Me:"And another thing,If you think you're actually a 'Pagan' of anysort,your lying to yourself,If you think that for one min. that you can just talk about some probably non-exsistent spells,wrong uses and properties of herbs and call yourself a 'Pagan' you're sadly mistaken.No,You are a temporary insult to my spiritual family(Meaning all You Wonderful people here at MW:hugz:)and I say 'Temporary' because it's currently 'Cool' to be Wicca or Pagan,which by the way if your Wicca then your Pagan,But the moment it's no longer a social status booster you'll drop these acts like your last 4 boyfriends,All at the same time,and without a second glance."

She left all in a huff and I'm trying not to laugh 'till she's out the door.

my question here being,Is it really wrong to add some personal touches to your altar?I felt nothing telling me not to...But still.

[Shanti]

You can do what ever you want to your alter but:

This...

Me:"And another thing,If you think you're actually a 'Pagan' of anysort,your lying to yourself,If you think that for one min. that you can just talk about some probably non-exsistent spells,wrong uses and properties of herbs and call yourself a 'Pagan' you're sadly mistaken.No,You are a temporary insult to my spiritual family(Meaning all You Wonderful people here at MW:hugz:)and I say 'Temporary' because it's currently 'Cool' to be Wicca or Pagan,which by the way if your Wicca then your Pagan,But the moment it's no longer a social status booster you'll drop these acts like your last 4 boyfriends,All at the same time,and without a second glance."
was IMO way out of line, over the top, past what was needed and is making you look like a hypocrit. You cant tell her her ways are wrong anymore than she can tell you your alter is wrong.

[U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya]

You can do what ever you want to your alter but:

This...
was IMO way out of line, over the top, past what was needed and is making you look like a hypocrit. You cant tell her her ways are wrong anymore than she can tell you your alter is wrong.

Yea,I see that,I hate doing that,But she just...Irks me soo much with the way she treats it all,I can't stand it.I lost my temper and my reason with that...I apologize to all of you,I'm increadibley Embarrased about it.

[Greenwolf]

Sweetie I can't speak for anyone else but I think personally that the only one you really need to apologise to is the other girl you ripped into. Shanti is right, you cannot tell her her way is wrong any more than she can you.

I understand where you are coming from and in previous communities that I have been in that girl would have been called a "play-gan" insinuating that she is just a fluffy bunny with no substance and no idea of what it really is about. However, we all start somewhere and we all learn and grow differently and relate differently.

I'm not saying she didn't have it coming to some extent I'm just saying that stooping to her level of antagonism although short term satisfying is really beneath you. Not that we all either a) haven't done it at one time or another or b) been awfully damn tempted. Some people still do. People who are too narrow to accept different blends of theology or accept the idea that modern writing can be used as a type of mythology to connect with their idea of divinity.

Don't sweat it too hard you are not a bad person and I certainly don't think any less of you and I'm sure none of your other friends here do either. Making mistakes is part of learning and growing. Apologise to the other girl for ripping into her ( when you can be calm and sincere about it -- sometimes that may take a little while) and remember that it is no up to you to judge her path anymore than it is hers to judge you.

And if she is that much of a b* then after you apologise merry meet, merry part. Don't associate with her if you dislike her or if she brings you down. Don't hate her (it does you way more harm than her) just let go of her with blessings.

That is my best advice and re: your altar have at er! It is your expression and your connection to your divinity. Decorate it any way you like. There is nothing wrong with that at all. My kids are always giving me things for my altar and I find I have to put some out and change it over now and then. It is all good. :thumbsup:

[U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya]

Thanks Greenwolf,I will Apologize to her for it,It really wasn't necissary to that degree.It may be a while though.It takes a certian amount of calm that I don't have right now,to be around her.I still feel terrible because it was a really stupid thing for me to say and because once again I let my decessions be ruled by my emotions and didnt think twice about what I was saying...In essence I was just as bad as her.

[Greenwolf]

Of course you did. You're human aren't you? The point is you know you've done wrong, you will correct your mistake and you have and will continue to learn from it. Just keep your chin up and remember something that I wish someone had told me when I was young ( hopefully I would have listened! :toofless:) when you stoop to someone elses level it is hard to get back up. The more you do it the harder it is to retain your own level. Sooner or later you will become like the very person(s) you despise by acting like them. It is always better to take the higher ground it is however seldom easy. I still struggle with it myself. :thumbsup:

[~*Sacred*~]

We all speak in heat of the moment. If most of us were in the heat of the moment at that time, we all would have done it that way, most of our sensitive conversations would go that way in general. I'm sure at that time you had that "penny feeling" in your gut, which is your signal to not say what you feel, but to explain in a better way. You're handling this thread in a great way, and I respect that :) *hugs* I've done this so many times and had to go back to re-explain myself and apologize, you're not alone!!!

With that being said, you cannot connect (for this situation, not for all Pagans) with Deities if you do not do it in a personalized way, which is... YOUR altar ;) I agree with you.

[petrus4]

a} As long as it is not criminal, you do not have any right to criticise her about any element of her worship, as far as I am concerned.

b} This is the reason why I do not call myself Pagan, or any other label. Any time you give yourself any particular label, you immediately invite someone else who also self-identifies with such, to tell you that you are doing it incorrectly, to condemn you, and to tell that you are not.

[Aruinn]

I have a fiery temper; I've actually been shocked at some of the things I've said to people in the past. I'm sure she'll understand ... and if she doesn't, oh well. We all say things we don't mean sometimes and if someone can't accept an apology then they're not your friend.

As to your altar, go for it. Who cares what other people think? Decorate it in bubblewrap and clingfilm if you want.

[Terra Mater]

Myself, I do not think you owe her or anyone else an apology. If we believe in deities then we have to accept that maybe, just maybe, when we are motivated beyond our control to verbally rip someone like that, possibly it was the will of one or more gods that it haappen. Sure they have other ways of getting their point across, but if one is to work smarter rather than harder, motivating one of us to lose control of our moths is a very effective tool.

Just watch those "more Pagan than thou" judgements in the future. Make a habit of them and people might mistake you for me.:thumbsup:

[LadyDamiana]

Myself, I do not think you owe her or anyone else an apology. If we believe in deities then we have to accept that maybe, just maybe, when we are motivated beyond our control to verbally rip someone like that, possibly it was the will of one or more gods that it haappen. Sure they have other ways of getting their point across, but if one is to work smarter rather than harder, motivating one of us to lose control of our moths is a very effective tool.


I dunno.....I don't think "The Goddess/God/[insert your deity's name here] made me do it" is any more legitimate---or believable---than "The Debbil made me do it."

Then again, I also don't think asking others "Should I apologize?" is a good idea.

First of all, it absolves the offender from taking responsibility for his/her actions (odd, in the face of the facts: "I'll shoot off my mouth as I please, but the folks of MW will decide if I apologize or not"...WTF?).

Second, it keeps the offender from having to examine himself/herself to see if there is any real regret and contrition to express. Maybe, maybe not...but that's a matter for self to decide. A legislated apology (online virtual strangers think you should) is no better than a coerced one (Mommy makes you say it).

Just my $0.02.

[Cloaked Raven]

First of all, :hugz:.

I'm a Christian Witch and I personalize my altar. There is nothing wrong with adding your own personal touches to an altar at all in my opinion. I use various stones of various colors to represent the elements for example.

In fact, the author of the one book I have specifically for Christo Pagans encourages everyone on that path to personalize their altars.

No one is going to "hell" for making their altar personalized or not. I think it's really up to the person who has the altar just how personalized they want it. ;)

:hugz:

[Garm]

I .But still.

IMHO and with caveat that I have a bad habit of pushing everything I can in to metaphysical categories

The problem isn't her

It's you

I doubt she is as bad as you describe. I doubt she is even that interesting, she sounds like a silly, dull person who just wishes she was

Granted some people can put their message across with enough self assurance that your reaction is to take their nonsense seriously

That is something you have to watch out for

From my POV the issue is why are priviledging this limited entity with such disruptive power?

I think many people reach a point in the progression on their path where they start meeting obstructions that are meant to impede them

These scenarios are often marked by being able to draw a reaction way out of proportion to their actual value

Many traditions describe this as testing

But in the duality of spirit to matter and mind to body it's usually the physical that benefits the most from the relation ship. From the perspective of the nonmaterial it amounts to little more than jail time in a meat cage

If humanity could reach it's spiritual potential there would be little or nothing to keep us tethered to the on going drudgery that is life on this tiny plane of exsistence

So safegaurds are put in to place, the Buddhist concept of Mara being the bast classical description of them

The first line of defense of these safeguards is throwing tremendous amounts of stupid shit to slow you down

You are simply going to have to control more effectively what you react to to get to the next level up

At least the safeguards there get to be more interesting...

[TuathaSidhe]

Heh, I guess I am the odd ball out. Myself personally, I would not say I'm sorry to her. I also think you know her better than ANYONE on here. You know her personally, the rest of us do not. If people can't take being criticized sometimes then they should keep everything to themselves. Criticism can be a good thing or it can be over done. If she is going off about things she really doesn't know about then some criticism might be needed. You mentioned herbs..if she is saying the wrong thing about them, then it could likely kill someone. Then something being said is def. needed.

There are times when some people need to be knocked down a peg or two. If you don't personally feel bad for what you said, then don't say I'm sorry. Just because you don't feel sorry for it with this person, doesn't mean you are going to go around saying it to everyone.

ETA: Fix your alter how you see fit, don't let anyone tell you differently. Its your energy being put into it.

[Terra Mater]

I dunno.....I don't think "The Goddess/God/[insert your deity's name here] made me do it" is any more legitimate---or believable---than "The Debbil made me do it."

Then again, I also don't think asking others "Should I apologize?" is a good idea.

First of all, it absolves the offender from taking responsibility for his/her actions (odd, in the face of the facts: "I'll shoot off my mouth as I please, but the folks of MW will decide if I apologize or not"...WTF?).

Second, it keeps the offender from having to examine himself/herself to see if there is any real regret and contrition to express. Maybe, maybe not...but that's a matter for self to decide. A legislated apology (online virtual strangers think you should) is no better than a coerced one (Mommy makes you say it).

Just my $0.02.


Understandable, but my point was not whether it was legitimate or believable, only that it was possible.

I agree with your points on asking if one should apologize, which is something I never ask. I personally think that the words "I'm sorry" are pretty pointless to begin with since one obviously was not sorry enough to hold their tongue in the first place. Why pretend to be sorry after the fact?

I just do not automatically think that just because the other person gets butthurt by a comment means I should automatically apologize. If I call someone a nitwit and they are in fact a nitwit, why should I apologize for them being a nitwit when it is their responsibility to stop being one or at least stop hanging out with me if they do not like my opinion of their nitwittery? :hahugh:

[U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya]

I dunno.....I don't think "The Goddess/God/[insert your deity's name here] made me do it" is any more legitimate---or believable---than "The Debbil made me do it."

Then again, I also don't think asking others "Should I apologize?" is a good idea.

First of all, it absolves the offender from taking responsibility for his/her actions (odd, in the face of the facts: "I'll shoot off my mouth as I please, but the folks of MW will decide if I apologize or not"...WTF?).

Second, it keeps the offender from having to examine himself/herself to see if there is any real regret and contrition to express. Maybe, maybe not...but that's a matter for self to decide. A legislated apology (online virtual strangers think you should) is no better than a coerced one (Mommy makes you say it).

Just my $0.02.


Oh,I can assure you I wasn't asking weather or not I should apologize,I already knew that I was,in the end no matter how mad I am with both me and her right now,going to apologize.Honestly I just need to calm myself to,get my mind atleast a little off who I wanted to kill first,me or her.I hate doing what I did,I really do,And generaly I can hold it in,But she just pushed me over the highest cliff that time and I just lost it.As my mother puts it,'She pushed my buttons and I reacted'.I went to apologize today only to find out that she didnt even remember what happend.So in a way I sorta feel like I wasted my breath on that,But then again I dont feel as guilty about it now.And yes I do still feel abit bad about it,That was me Running my Brain and my Mouth at different paces.

[Aruinn]

There's a way to tell someone off without being hurtful or a hypocrite, and adults take responsibility for their actions. Saying something in the heat of the moment that you'll later regret because someone's attacked you and made you defensive (which this situation clearly entailed) is not the same thing as telling someone something that is considered and justified.

The point is to apologise for the way things were said, not to back down and say the other person was right. If U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya thinks they went about this the wrong way, there's nothing wrong with apologising for it. If not, then that's fine too.

Just my opinion.

EDIT:

U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya, you posted the same time as me. At least you tried!

[TuathaSidhe]

There's a way to tell someone off without being hurtful or a hypocrite, and adults take responsibility for their actions. Saying something in the heat of the moment that you'll later regret because someone's attacked you and made you defensive (which this situation clearly entailed) is not the same thing as telling someone something that is considered and justified.

The point is to apologise for the way things were said, not to back down and say the other person was right. If U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya thinks they went about this the wrong way, there's nothing wrong with apologising for it. If not, then that's fine too.

Just my opinion.

EDIT:

U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya, you posted the same time as me. At least you tried!

I agree and disagree. Some people do not get the hint until you are blunt with them,and often times bluntness is considered rude by some people. Brutally honest can not be handles by some people..but if I am in a situation where its needed, I will not say I am sorry. There are times and places for how to say certain things. Sometimes one *needs* to be blunt and brutally honest for anything to happen.

The other adult needs to take responsibility for their own feelings also. The world aint all love and light and other people are not responsible for them.

[Aruinn]

I agree and disagree. Some people do not get the hint until you are blunt with them,and often times bluntness is considered rude by some people. Brutally honest can not be handles by some people..but if I am in a situation where its needed, I will not say I am sorry. There are times and places for how to say certain things. Sometimes one *needs* to be blunt and brutally honest for anything to happen.

The other adult needs to take responsibility for their own feelings also. The world aint all love and light and other people are not responsible for them.

Oh, I agree. I have no qualms with telling people how it is, I'm well versed in it. :) I just think there's just a way to do it, when you're speaking with your head and not your gut reaction, that's all.

[U-we-tsi-a-ge-ya]

Not sure if this really matters,But I told her that would happen if she pushed me too much on not just this but on anything really.I told that I would probably end up tearing her throat out over it without heasitation.I said to her that it might take a while but if it goes on too long it will happen.So She had a warning.

I'm just throwing is out there because one of my friends said that he thought that I didnt do anything wrong.He said "You gave her warning,you told her what would happen if she did that but she still went ahead and did it.You reacted and gave her hell,I don't blame you for it.Maybey this was a good lesson on 'If you can't take the Heat,stay out of the Kitchen' for her".