Circumcision yes or no?

[Yvonne Belisle]

Many people differ on this topic and we have a member that was interested in it. She has provided the following resource for information. So what are your opinions on the topic and why do you feel that way?


www.nocirc.com
Dedicated to making a safer world, NOCIRC is a non-profit educational organization committed to securing the birthright of male and female children and babies to keep their sexual organs intact.

On March 15, 1986, a group of healthcare professionals in the San Francisco Bay Area announced the founding of the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers (NOCIRC); the first national clearinghouse in the United States for information about circumcision. In its first decade, NOCIRC grew into an international network and now has more than 110 centers worldwide.

NOCIRC:

*Maintains offices open to the public and answers requests for information by phone and mail.
*Offers a referral service that provides the names of doctors, lawyers and advocates who are educated about the functions of the foreskin and the medical, ethical and legal reasons that the sexual organs of children should be left intact.
*Disseminates educational material, provides instruction, and shares research findings with parents, health-care professionals, lawyers, legislators and other concerned individuals.
*Owns one of the largest collections of information about circumcision in the world.
*Endorses and upholds the Declaration of the First International Symposium on Circumcision

[AstraSkye]

Living in a country where circumcisions are extremely rare - and living with an intact man, seeing the benefits of having a foreskin - I'm completely against the circumcision of infants. I find it completely absurd that anyone would like to do such a thing to their own child, considering the risks and consequences coming with it.

[Blueowl]

The risks and consequencces are worse if they don't get circumcised and the parents don't teach their children how to wash that area right...which a few men don't...I like my man circumcised, and if I ever have a son, he will be too...its more sanitary that way and less of a risk of infection of some kind when he finally becomes sexually active...there are many pros and cons to this issue..and everyone feels differently which is fine...but this is simply how I feel...and I am not forcing my opinion on anyone! BB

[Theres]

my feeling is that we are born with NO extra parts!

ancient nomads wandering through the desert with little water for bathing is one thing, but in the modern world there is no excuse for this kind of mutilation to be performed as routine.

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/

http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/mgm/hampton1.html

[Night_Goddess]

Whew, this is a hot topic, and I sense there's going to be some lively discussion here.
***There are no 'increased risks of infection' with circumcised men!!! *** That is a myth!!!!*** There is no scientific evidence that indicates any connection between an increased risk of STDs, penile or cervical cancer, or bladder infection with the intact penis.
(I love Greenman's comment about nobody being born with extra parts!!!)
***One of the facts about circumcision that gets no press is the negative effect on sexual sensation for the man. Yes, friends, intact men enjoy sex more-- they have more nerve endings, right where nature intended!
As a mother and concerned woman, I'd like to think that leaving our sons intact is one extremely important way we show support for our men. My son's father was circumcised, and was horrified to know what (and how) the procedure was done. I loved the fact that he recognized the importance of leaving our son as he was born...perfect....without insisting that they 'look the same'. No, he hasn't had any trouble in the 'locker room' for looking different. Yes, he and his sisters will leave their sons intact. It's been 25 years since I first encountered the myths and false rumors about circumcision, and I thought the old modes of thought, and the science-fiction about it were dying off in the US.
The positive reasons for leaving boys intact are so numerous that the websites mentioned above can handle that one....complete with statistics, etc.
Having witnessed many circumcisions, I am convinced it is no less than genital mutilation!! Imagine the long-term effects of the fact that a baby boy's first shared sexual experience is one of intense pain, anguish and trauma. 25 years ago, parents were not allowed in the newborn nursery to observe a circumcision before making up their minds, as it was thought to be 'too upsetting'. It's no surprise we see sex and violence linked in cinema. We don't circumcise women (thank God!)--at least not HERE in the USA. We consider such a practice barbaric. Why should our thinking be any different for men in this case?
***If cleanliness were the issue, ladies, wouldn't we be at a higher risk? ...Besides, we don't amputate parts on the basis of 'future risk'. Care of the intact penis does not require that parents 'do' anything other than make darn sure that your pediatrician keep his hands off the child's penis so they don't retract the foreskin. That's by far the biggest cause of problems.
***Speaking of risk, there continue to be infant deaths associated with circumcision. Surgical 'mishaps' occur that require what is called sexual reassignment. A huge price to pay for no....and I mean no....gain whatsoever.
The American Academy of Pediatrics no longer recommends routine circumcision. A non-circumcising Briss is becoming more common, too as Jewish parents recognize the non-necessity/harm of the procedure.
If you're absolutely convinced you must do this to your boys, please read as much as possible about it before consenting, so you may be well informed. :)
***I'd like to hear opinions from more men out there: Guys, did anyone read the Men's Journal article about circumcision? What do you think, fellas?

[Willow_Raindancer]

My husband is not circumcised and I would not want it any other way. If we were to have a son, I would not have him tortured! If a son of mine decided to have it done as an adult, that would be fine with me, it'd be his penis!
By the way, I also feel the same way about babies getting their ears pierced. ;)

[Ravens_Tears]

Well, my oldest son needed to be circumcised or he would have had chronic infections and scarring under the forskin, the doctor even changed the consent forms because I had decided against it( being guilted) and the pediatrician came to me, hat in hand and sheepishly told me that in his case it was required. And they apologized to me. My second son was also circumcised as a precautionary measure.

[Sequoia]

Okay. . . I havn't got a son, but when I do, I am definately going to say no cercomsicion. I think it's horrible. That would be like removing the inner ear because many young children get inner ear infections, it's almost inevitable. But why remove it?? I mean, honestly. . . it's so unnescisary! And those poor babies.

And in all honesty, as a woman who has made love to a man who was cercomsised, versus one who wasn't. . . I find that the one who wasn't is a much more enjoyable partner- for both of us!

I cannot imagine mutilating a baby like that! Especially there!

[Lady Eryn]

Hey All I have to say is to have all the men in your life match. Because if the sons are diffrent then the father that could cause problems with the son, as he is growing up. If you teach your son how to clean it properly then I don't see a problem. And I youget it done then that's good to . I just think that both father's and sons should look alike. I also have two sons, they both match their father. who is circumcised

[Autumn]

Three years ago, after seeing a couple of circs at work I showed my Dh anti-circ lit, and he agreed. As he put it, it wasn't his penis, he had no right to have something done to his son that couldn't be undone. It never became an issue, we have 2 little girls :)

[Theres]

having them match?
not passing on sexual hangups or the shame of being 'different' falls under the realm of teaching, NOT surgery!
circumcision isn't a procedure that should be done for the convenience of the parents!

and let's not forget the standard AMA practice of performing (or encouraging) unnecessary surgery. not to open another can of worms, but we now know that upwards of 50% (i don't know the exact statistics, but it is probably much higher) of all hysterectomies done from the 50's through the 90's were unnecessary. i have little doubt that circumcision will be seen in that same light in years to come.

[AstraSkye]

Thank you, GreenMan...

[VroomBroom]

Night Goddess, my husband was the recipiant of an emergency circumcision when he was, I believe 6, because of a doctor doing that very thing. The foreskin got stuck and was cutting off the blood supply to the penis. He had a first hand experience with a 'pushy' doctor.

Both of our boys are intact, and I have no intentions of ever having them 'done'! I dont see any reason for it, they came with it and they'll leave with it! And they have no problems keeping their parts clean.

[Faery-Wings]

This is one of those things where if I knew then what I know now, I might have done things differently. My son is circumcised, as is my husband. At the time of his birth, we had discussed it and opted to have it done, partly based on the cleanliness issue, partly of having them "match." Looking back it might have been coincidence, but I had a friend who's husband was not circumcised, and she had a lot of infections and issues supposedly because of it and swore she wouldn't have any future sons *not* done. And all of my family and friends sons are circ'd so there was "peer pressure" there.

After it was done, I spent a lot of time in the nursery (son was under bili lights for a few days) and I saw the trays they do the procedure on. That broke my heart. If I has seen that first, I might not have gone through with it. Today, knowing a bit more on it, mostly likely I would not have it done.

However, I respect each individuals beliefs and choices.

Edited for leaving words out!

[Autumn]

Some of these "emergency circs proformed on boys and men are the direct results of misdiagnosis and lack of proper care. Here are links to two articles that cover the case against circumcision and the proper care of the intact male. http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10...ircson103.shtml http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10...mcision85.shtml

I hope these are helpful for those folks trying to make the decision for their children. They can also be helpful in dealing with the "peer pressure" to circ routenely.

[shnen]

the female in me that says damn him for never having to have one period says yes... DO IT!

but the side of me that says its just a baby, and there are no benefits to do it... why bother?

[Night_Goddess]

I strongly recommend the link posted by Greenman. I checked it out yesterday, and it is well done, compassionate, and has both sides of the issue presented.
***C'mon, Shnen, just because women bleed monthly....for part of our lives....you're kidding, right? That doesn't justify subjecting any baby to an atrociously unecessary, risky, mutilating procedure that would 'guard' against 'possible' infections?
!!!!Ai Yi Yi!!!
***And talk about the screaming!!! Those infants are strapped, spread-eagled to a device called a Circumstraint, and the doc just cuts/crushes the tissue away. Those babies yell at the top of their lungs until they literally pass out from the agony. It's like seeing someone leave their body/check out/shut down...at a time when we want to cuddle and welcome this new little spirit in the warmest possible way :) Studies indicate documentable behavior changes, bonding disruption and sleep problems with babies for at least 22 hours after the surgery. Not to mention the pain of having a raw wound exposed to urine and fecal material....the risk of infection with the exposure of an open wound to diaper debris is much, much higher than with an intact boy.
*** Isn't that like saying 'you might get an infection under your fingernails, and so let's rip them off' ?
***...my son and his dad don't match. When our son asked his dad why they look different, his father said, 'long ago, it was believed that cutting off part of a boy's penis was necessary. Now we know better.' Our child, who must have been about 4 or 5, was wide-eyed at the thought of what was done. He quietly came to his dad and hugged him, sayng, 'I'm sorry you were hurt, daddy.'
***Should any parent have the right to amputate a body part because his dad's is missing?
***My heart goes out to those who were not well-informed about the truths regarding circumcision, who were told 'it doesn't hurt your child, babies feel no pain, it's no big deal, everyone does it, it's better, it's cleaner'.....all of those statements are untrue. How about the parents who lose a child due to complications from a totally unnecessary surgery! Not to mention those whose boy endures a 'surgical mishap'....little Joey is reassigned to being raised as Josephine because his penis was amputated. Check the ww.nocirc.com website: it has happened!
***BTW,There is treatment for retracted (stuck) foreskin...poor 6 year-old who innocently allowed the Dr. to 'examine' his penis! It's a miracle he ever let anyone touch his penis again!!!
80% of all men are uncircumcised...so where's the mis-match?
This procedure violates the first rule of medicine: First, do no harm.
Chryssi, I know what you mean by social pressure. When my son was born, he was the only boy in the nursery who wasn't circumcised: in fact, I had to specifically sign special papers stating I did NOT want him circumcised. The unspoken idea was the hospital's way of saying 'well, if he has problems it's not our fault!' Of course I signed the papers.
The following morning, the nursing staff approached me and said they wanted to have me speak to a mom whose baby was born while the dad was out of town. The mom couldn't decide, and did not know what the father's preferences were. (Clearly before the advent of cell phones!) ---The nursing staff said they were not ALLOWED to talk to parents about the pros and cons of the surgery because they are hospital employees. So I chatted to the mom, and told her to take her time and give it some thought, as there is NO RUSH to hurry up and do something. Especially make a decision to have an irreversable (well, not really, but difficult to do) procedure done before giving it very careful thought. The priority here is Protecting the Rights of the Child to have control of his body. While he's a baby, there is nobody who is acting as an advocate for him saying to all parents...look, this is risky and why not let him decide when he's old enough to make the choice? We don't tatoo or pierce anyone's body without permission...what about the owner of the body? It's his penis, fer crissakes! :)
***As for all those well-wishing friends who are so eager to tell anyone to have their son 'cut'.....I encountered them, too: I said let's ask this boy when he's older if he's happy or not with his penis :) --And yes, my son has said 'Thanks, mom, for not letting them cut me!'
***I'll end this rant by reflecting on Eriksons model for emotional development. The first task we accomplish (or not) is the issue of Trust vs Mistrust. If an infant finds his world safe, his mom responsive to his cries, and his needs for cuddling, feeding, and comfort met, he learns to Trust. On that one simple issue our whole emotional groundwork is based. After reading many of the posts about this, and other family issues, I know this group wants to do the best possible job of parenting. It is wonderful to see the support of so many for one of the most important jobs on the planet :) Blessed Be!

[D Witch]

Absolutely not. When I was pg, I was positive we were having a boy. We had a lot of ultrasounds (high risk pg for the first 6 months), and never asked if it was a boy. I was so sure he would be a boy, I looked at a lot of circ info, & talked to dh about it.

Bottom line, I couldn't see why I'd allow this to happen to my son. Dh is circ'ed, he's the only one in his family who was, & his dad didn't want it to happen. His mom actually took him to be circ'ed when his dad wasn't around!

I just couldn't see any benefits that outweighed the negatives-- strap my brand new son down? Nope. Cause him unnecessary pain? Nope. My job is to protect him, & to keep him from being hurt. My job is to snuggle him close and foster the bond that we have. After doing a lot of reading, both pro and anti circ, I flat out told dh that if he really wanted to circ our son, he would be with him during surgery, and he would be the only one changing diapers while he healed... I think he laughed, because I came off so strongly, and he didn't have any preference! Here I was geared up for a debate, & he agreed without needing any information. It was such a minor topic for him, and I was so glad...

And Night Goddess, I so totally agree with you regarding parenting... Ds has never been left to cry, never been expected to be anything but himself, and he is an absolutely wonderful (almost) 4-year-old. He has his moments, but we recognize that what we want to see as disobediance is mostly him learning about the world... ;-)

[Ravens_Tears]

Originally posted by Greenman
having them match?
not passing on sexual hangups or the shame of being 'different' falls under the realm of teaching, NOT surgery!
circumcision isn't a procedure that should be done for the convenience of the parents!

and let's not forget the standard AMA practice of performing (or encouraging) unnecessary surgery. not to open another can of worms, but we now know that upwards of 50% (i don't know the exact statistics, but it is probably much higher) of all hysterectomies done from the 50's through the 90's were unnecessary. i have little doubt that circumcision will be seen in that same light in years to come.

In Manitoba, right within the hospital, the doctors have advocated against circumcision for years... my oldest is now 13. Circumcision is not always an "unnecessary" procedure and it sure as H E double hockey sticks is not always for conveinience. Try caring for a little one who has just had it done... It's far from conveinient.

[Tiana_Ecarias]

My son is not circumsized, and my husband is halfway circumsized, they screwed up with him.... *rolls eyes*

Anyways, I don't agree with teh procedures, and having worked with kids who had just had it done, I didn't want MY kids going through that.

My husband was the same way, until a few of his buddies on ship said it was probably better for him TO be circumsized, the same things as cleaning and so on.

So, him and I talked, and we agreed to talk to the doctor, if there were any benifets to it. When we spoke to the doctor, he told us"it's only a religious thing, there are no real benifets to it. "

So, we didn't circumsize him, and have had no problems since.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Twilight Garden]

I am supporting my husband whichever way he decides to go on the issue. That's right. I am fully giving him the decision on this. I talked to him about it last night after looking through this thread. Right now, he wants to do it. If/When we finally conceive, I will help him in looking through the options. If he changes his mind, great! If he doesn't, that's fine by me too. ::shrugs:: Not much of an opinion here. :ugh:

[Night_Goddess]

LunarMist, I'm curious: Why does your hubby want his boys circumcised? I think it's great you are having a dialogue about this topic....but I'm just curious about his reasons. Did he read the link mentioned by Greenman.... www.mothersagainscirc.org?

[Night_Goddess]

This just in from www.mothering.com....under the 'discussions' site:

DO NOT CIRC AGAIN!!!

This is a TRUE story from my own experience:

I was previously married to the biggest jerk in the world. His penis was only 2 inches long, flaccid AND erect!! It had a zig-zag scar on it, with suture holes.... From what little that he and his mother revealed to me, i was able to piece the story together of what happened to him as a boy...

Born in 1978, his parents had him circ'd shortly after birth. he was taken home and parents were given NO instructions whatsoever for his care....just change the gauze once daily. That was it.

Adhesions formed and his penis curved. His mom said there was too much on one side, and not enough on the other. the side with "too much" was adhereing to the glans. His parents took him to the dr. "oh, we'll have to circ again!" so they did. I am not sure how old he was, (guessing 3yo-4yo), but he remembered the 2nd circ...NO anesthesia was used. NONE!! They told his mom they did use it and they charged her for it, but none was used. They weren't in the room to witness any application of anasthesia. And XH remembered that they didn't rub or inject anything on or into his penis...not even betadine!!! Needless to say, he did not want to talk about it anymore. Neither did his mom. This 2nd circ left him with a tiny penis for the rest of his life.

From my research, and based on the scar and suture holes, I can only guess that they also did a z-plasty, but i am still not sure. My XH and i are not friends and don't speak to each other.

THIS IS THE TRUTH!!! he had painful erections, he was self-conscious about his penis, he was unable to satisfy me as a sexual partner, he was a premature ejaculator, he resented his parents for the trauma he suffered, he was distrustful of all dr's and hospitals, he was pain sensative, (ie, shots, cuts, scrapes), he was violent and had anger-management issues, and on top of all that, if he has a son, he STILL wants to circ him!!! That was an issue for us, as i am vehemently opposed to circ, and he is very pro-circ. One of many issues! He said, "if it happened to me, it happened for a reason. so of course i am going to do that to my son(s). I wouldn't have it any other way."

PLEASE Don't turn your little boy into my XH!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! I am begging you not to do this again!!!!!!!! You/your dh/your son will regret it for the rest of your lives!!!!!!
****************************************************
--I think this post says it all!!!! --Night Goddess :)

[Tiana_Ecarias]

That is a terrible story, Night_goddess, and that would only underline your reasons for NOT circumsizing you sons.

Lunarmist: I think it's good your letting you husband decide, and that you 2 are talking about it. My husband was the same way when it came to circumsision, till he talked to his mom about his. Then he wanted to talk about it some more, and then ask a doctor.

In the end, it worked out.

Tiana_Ecarias

[Margie]

I think alot of our opinions have to do with what we are familiar with. Those of us who are more familiar with the circumsized penis seem to lean that way and those of us more familiar with the uncircumsized penis seem to lean that way. I have only been with a man who was circumsized. That's just the way it happened. I would feel more comfortable if I were to ever have a son if he were circumsized. I say that now, maybe when I was actually holding the baby in my arms I would change my mind, maybe not. I can't say for sure.

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by Margie
I think alot of our opinions have to do with what we are familiar with. Those of us who are more familiar with the circumsized penis seem to lean that way and those of us more familiar with the uncircumsized penis seem to lean that way. I have only been with a man who was circumsized. That's just the way it happened. I would feel more comfortable if I were to ever have a son if he were circumsized. I say that now, maybe when I was actually holding the baby in my arms I would change my mind, maybe not. I can't say for sure.

I understand where your comming from but from where I stand I feel I have no right to make a life-altering choice for another human EVEN MY OWN CHILD. If it were a life threatening condition and I had to make a choice, that'd be one thing. BUT this is NOT a life threatening condition. It's a natural one;)
I don't want anyone else making decisions about my body.
I'll give any future sons the same right, the right to choose what gets done to their bodies:cool:

[MoonRaven]

Just thought I'd add.

My BF is circumcized, and he says he's perfectly happy with it that way, and it's no big deal to him. He doesn't remember having it done, and he doesn't see the big deal in it - he doesn't feel violated or anything like that. I don't know if he wants to do the same to his (our) sons, but it makes no difference to me, really. Personally *I* prefer it (on him anyway), but then again it doesn't really have an impact on me.

One of my exes wasn't circumcized. Of course he said he wouldn't have it done now (mostly because he's a wuss), but he complains about it as well. He says it's a hassle, because there's more to clean (and apparently soap gets caught in it and that stings).

I guess there's two sides to everything - even either side of a two-sided debate.

[AstraSkye]

Originally posted by Willow_Raindancer
I feel I have no right to make a life-altering choice for another human EVEN MY OWN CHILD. If it were a life threatening condition and I had to make a choice, that'd be one thing. BUT this is NOT a life threatening condition. It's a natural one;)

I get happy when I see people with that attitude :)

[D Witch]

Originally posted by Willow_Raindancer
I understand where your comming from but from where I stand I feel I have no right to make a life-altering choice for another human EVEN MY OWN CHILD.

That's funny, after signing off yesterday, I kept thinking the same thing-- why do we believe we have the right to make this decision?

But then, I don't parent like the mainstream. ;)

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have been staying out of this one but I am just going to tuck my two cents in. I have three boys tow are cut one is not. I have been with both men who have and have not been done. I talked to my husband about it last night and it is an issue that has come up with two other men in my life. The ones who have had it done all were glad they did. The one who didn't couldn't have cared either way but requested that the son I bore him remain uncut and I honored that. It is more of a hassle to tend to the cut child cleaning wise when it is done but later there is not a difference cleaning it. I am sure I will have more to explain when the one who is intact retracts for the first time but that is ok. I did the older two in part for religious reasons I am half Jewish by decent and felt that if my boys chose to go down that path I didn't want them to need that done as an adult. I know that I would do the same thing again for the same reasons. That is my personal choice. That doesn't make it right or wrong but I have talked about this to my boys and they have no problem with what I did and as a matter of fact are glad they look like most the other boys in school. It may not be nessisary but with all the other issues kids face I am glad that for my two boys that are more sensitive to stress that I did it.

[Night_Goddess]

Actually, ladies... care of the intact penis is no big deal. www.mothering.com has a resource for that.
As far as the retraction issue....boys are usually older when the glans and foreskin separate. They 'discover' the fact while checking themselves out....Yvonne...your son may need a simple explanation about making sure he rinses off with water when he showers. Maybe papa can say something when the time is right:)(yes, soap is painful...just like washing your eye out with soap!)
The site www.BoysToo.com has an interesting article submitted at a NOCIRC Symposium about the history of circumcision. It's well researched, and the author gives his personal history, which is compelling. If someone suggested to me that we circumcise little girls, I'd be horrified.
I'm glad to hear this has opened up some dialogue between prospective parents :)
Blessed Be!

[Twilight Garden]

To answer your question Night Goddess, I think his reasons right now are simply because he is cut & because it seems to be the mainstream way to go. He hasn't yet looked through the sites. I have them bookmarked for when he's ready. We have been trying to conceive for almost a year now, with no luck yet. I will make sure he's making an informed decision... when the time comes. ;)

[Night_Goddess]

Thanks for the reply, LunarMist :) and good luck!
---and by the way, everyone, I don't mean to sound like a firebrand-waving zealot. I respect the choices we all make. I am learning by reading the new threads as well.....especially the www.BoysToo.com The history article is amazing, as is the info about waiting until breastfeeding is established before doing the surgery (at least 8 days) ....I didn't think twice about the circ. issue until I witnessed one during my nursing school training. As an aunt (and prospective mom---at that time) I was horrified that both my sisters, (wonderful, educated, compassionate people), were NOT completely informed about what was done to their boys!!!
----All grist for the mill, right?
--I love the Mothering Magazine link as well! What a great resource!
Have a great day!

[shnen]

***C'mon, Shnen, just because women bleed monthly....for part of our lives....you're kidding, right? That doesn't justify subjecting any baby to an atrociously unecessary, risky, mutilating procedure that would 'guard' against 'possible' infections?

I was kidding...