Man Shot to Death While Beating Dog

[CloakofStars9]

Richmond TimesDispatch.com (VA)
1-26-3

WINCHESTER (AP) -- A man was shot fatally while trying to beat his dog to death with a gun, police said.

Raymond Poore Jr., 43, called his wife at work Thursday and told her that their dog had bitten him and he intended to kill the animal, said Winchester police Capt. David Sobonya.

The wife came home about 6 p.m. and found her husband unconscious, with a number of dog bites and scratches. She called an ambulance, and emergency medical personnel discovered that Poole had been shot in the abdomen. He was pronounced dead at Winchester Medical Center.

Sobonya said the gun was an over-and-under rifle/shotgun combination, with a .22-caliber top barrel and a .410 bottom barrel. An autopsy performed Friday showed that Poole died of a gunshot wound from the .410 barrel.

Sobonya said Poore must have beaten the 30-pound shar-pei with the gun that went off. He said the stock of the weapon was broken and there appeared to be blood and dog hair on it.

The dog was in the custody of a Winchester animal control officer. There was no word on how badly it was injured.

Sobonya said the case was a first for him in his 20-year career.

"Normally we work major felonies, but I got paged on this. A dog bite isn't a major felony. But when I called, I was enlightened."

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/localupdates/MGBVJW3KCBD.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

my opinon that bastard got what he diserved

[Blueowl]

:mad: :mad: :meanface:

It is one thing to discipline your dog, but when your beating him with a gun...it really is funny the angels that surround our beloved pets isn't it?

[Ahautenites]

**nods** I agree. If there was such a discipline problem with the dog, he should have just brought it to a shelter or else had it euthanized. He got his just desserts.

[Matt]

:eek:
how stupid do you have to get i mean really first off why beat anything with a loaded gun? and second why beat anything at all? even if it did bite him he was probly doing something he deserved it for!

[~ Monk ~]

Score one for the animals..:thumbsup:

[Darkrose360]

Justice was served...for a change!

[Drisel]

Sometimes irony seems to work out for the best doesn't it?

[CloakofStars9]

my point exactly!!!!! ^^^^^

[WitchJezebel]

I hope that guy comes back as a dog....

:mad: People who abuse animals make me so angry. :mad:

[Saphra]

Okay, I'm the one sitting here thinking, poor dog first, then poor man. Alright, the dog didn't deserve to be beaten, I agree with that. But the guy probably didn't deserve to die either. I'm outraged that the guy beat the dog, that is uncalled for and inhumane, and with a loaded gun of all things to beat it with. But did the guy really deserve to die because of it?
I can understand the guy getting bitten and scratched, he really did deserve that, but death?
THe guy was really really really really stupid.
If he beat the dog to death, then yes, he would deserve to die.


Edited cuz I left something out.

[Psyche Ague]

Haha! Justice prevails! No animal deserves to be treated like that. NEVER.

Enter this one in the Darwin Awards. ^_^

And I don't think the man should have ever experienced happiness again if he hadn't died. I'm very radical in my views and I'm very aware of this, but I hold animals in higher regard than I do humans. No one who ever hurts an animal deserves happiness. It's my own system of justice and I understand that not everyone feels the same way I do. Animals are just so beautiful.

[Lacykitten]

Psyche - I'm so with you. I feel that animal life is just as important, if not moreso, than most human life.

I try not to be of the "eye for an eye" grouping and try to be a good vegan, harm none, yada yada.. but honestly.. when things like this happen - or the guy who was gored by his fighting rooster - I just can't help but think, they got what they earned.

If you're a bad person, you'll eventually get what's coming to you.. but so often karma takes way too long.

I know that I love my animal family as much as my human family and friends, and if someone ever, EVER hurt ANY of my friends or family, they would have to run very far, very fast to get away from me. Scorpio in Dog, I've been told, are incredibly protective and viscious when protecting those they love - and I certainly live up to that. People who abuse animals deserve to have loveless, unhappy lives - or not live at all. It's not fair to cause pain to other living creatures and take up space that someone else could use, who would not cause pain and suffering. May sound harsh but.. if you can cause that much negativity then you're causing way too much and that should not be allowed under any circumstances.

.... hmm.. headaches make me sound uncoordinated. @_@

[Eudaimonia]

I just found it darn amusing, but I've got morbid humor. Runs in the family.

Anyone ever heard of (or read) 'News of the Weird: Proof that real life is stranger than fiction." This is the kind of stuff that makes it in there.

[Theres]

Originally posted by Shpongle
Score one for the animals..:thumbsup:

score one for Darwin too!

[Danustouch]

This would be a case, that I like to label "Rapid Fire Karma".

Nope..I don't say "Poor Man". The same way I don't say "Poor Man" when a guy get's shot by the police when he pulls a gun on an officer. The same way I don't say "Poor Man" to a drunk driver who just killed two people in one car, and put himself in a coma. Our actions, bring about consequences. This wasn't only a case of "Oops..I made a mistake, and something bad happened because I made a mistake." This was a case of willfull, purposeful, malicious animal abuse.

Think about it. If this were your CHILD and you showed up at school, one day, and saw it being beaten with a gun..what would YOU do? Take the time to go and run and call the police? That would probably be ideal, if you could manage to stop him from beating your kid while you did that...but..the more HUMAN response, the more common, instinctual response, would be to grab the gun, and beat the SOB over the head with it, until you were sure he would never, ever beat another child again.

Well....WE are Children of the Devine. And so are animals. Animals are probably even CLOSER to the devine, than we are. They don't have that stupid thing called "Pride" standing in their way, for one. So.... in my opinion, this was one of those cases, where the devine reached down their mighty hand and said.."Hey..NOBODY does this to my child". And I for one, am whistling a happy tune tonight, after hearing that this dog will be okay, and that this MONSTER who beat him, is dead.

[Marchosias]

That man is an idiot. Hitting a dog is despicable...if he was THAT pissed, he could have shot it...now the fool's dead. Hope they put the mutt to "sleep".

[SerenityMoon]

Saphra: yes, he deserved to die. Not only for his mistreatment of one of nature's creatures, but for his sheer stupidity. Hitting something with a loaded weapon. Riiiight. That was smoooth. I don't pity the stupid. People choose to be that way.
Justice WAS served. You dno't shoot a dog just for biting you. If it had lunged at him, attacked him, then I can see defending yourself. But my Gods..*shakes head* Idiot. Gotta love irony.

[WynterWynd]

He got what he deserved and I don not feel sorry for him in the least! Stupid ignorant SoB!!!:rolleyes:

[Rubi Waters]

people can be so inhumane......now that's a sad concept!!!!!

[Old Witch]

Justice was served.........quickly.

[Drisel]

I'm not going to side with the dog and I'm not going to side with the man. This whole situation just proves how the theory of survival of the fitest has evolved to survival of the smartest. :eyebrow:

[Psyche Ague]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Think about it. If this were your CHILD and you showed up at school, one day, and saw it being beaten with a gun..what would YOU do? Take the time to go and run and call the police? That would probably be ideal, if you could manage to stop him from beating your kid while you did that...but..the more HUMAN response, the more common, instinctual response, would be to grab the gun, and beat the SOB over the head with it, until you were sure he would never, ever beat another child again.

Well....WE are Children of the Devine. And so are animals. Animals are probably even CLOSER to the devine, than we are. They don't have that stupid thing called "Pride" standing in their way, for one. So.... in my opinion, this was one of those cases, where the devine reached down their mighty hand and said.."Hey..NOBODY does this to my child". And I for one, am whistling a happy tune tonight, after hearing that this dog will be okay, and that this MONSTER who beat him, is dead.
I couldn't agree with you more. You could have taken the words right out of my mouth. :) Animals ARE the only children I will ever have. I feel it's a personal "divine" mission to protect and love them as best I can, as they are my children. There is nothing more homicidal than a mother whose children are being threatened. :meanface:

[shnen]

i hope he suffered the way that poor dog did for who knows how long!

[TornadoAli]

heh what an idiot!! It's always good when people like that remove themselves from the gene pool!!

[shnen]

Darwinism at its finest ;)

[Valnorran]

I have to go with Saphra on this one. I agree the man probably deserved some sort of punishment, maybe to get smacked around himself, but I don't think he deserved to lose his life for it. You will all be gratified to hear that gunshot wounds to the abdomen are exceptionally painful ways to die.

Speaking of the Darwin Awards, I read of a case very similar to this on their newsletter a few years ago. An abusive boyfriend was trying to get to his girlfriend, who had locked herself in a car. He used the butt of his loaded shotgun to smash the windshield and BLAM! Now that guy deserved what he got.

[CloakofStars9]

Originally posted by Danustouch

Well....WE are Children of the Devine. And so are animals. Animals are probably even CLOSER to the devine, than we are. They don't have that stupid thing called "Pride" standing in their way, for one. So.... in my opinion, this was one of those cases, where the devine reached down their mighty hand and said.."Hey..NOBODY does this to my child". And I for one, am whistling a happy tune tonight, after hearing that this dog will be okay, and that this MONSTER who beat him, is dead.


couldnt have said it better myself ;)

[Semele]

I am reading this thread in utter shock...no, not about the man and the dog, but rather how so many of you can rejoice at the tragedy. yes, it is sad that an animal was abused, but it is equally sad that a man has died.

Never did I think I would see a threa with the words man shot to death coupled with so many thumbs up signs. What is going through your minds to rejoice over the loss of life?

Incidentally, the dog will likely be put to sleep regardless so who really wins in this situation? Darwin?

[Semele]

Originally posted by Danustouch


Nope..I don't say "Poor Man". The same way I don't say "Poor Man" when a guy get's shot by the police when he pulls a gun on an officer. The same way I don't say "Poor Man" to a drunk driver who just killed two people in one car, and put himself in a coma. Our actions, bring about consequences. This wasn't only a case of "Oops..I made a mistake, and something bad happened because I made a mistake."

Wow! This comment, above all, astounds me coming from one who is so quick to defend the choices we can legally make regarding ending a life that only exists because of our mistake. Indeed our actions do bring about consequences..all of our actions, not just the ones where we are harming an animal.


Originally posted by Danustouch

And I for one, am whistling a happy tune tonight, after hearing that this dog will be okay, and that this MONSTER who beat him, is dead.

Whistling a happy tune??? Are you really that calloused? My God that is so scary.

[Phoenix Blue]

I guess I'm calloused, then. . . because in my opinion, the man got exactly what he deserved. I only wish the dog hadn't had to suffer as well.

This man was a waste of human tissue. I'm glad he'll no longer consume oxygen that will now be available for more productive members of human society.

Edit: I mean, think about it. If the man had the brains God gave an ant, why did he try to beat a dog to death with a loaded shotgun? Why didn't he just shoot it?

[Semele]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

Edit: I mean, think about it. If the man had the brains God gave an ant, why did he try to beat a dog to death with a loaded shotgun? Why didn't he just shoot it?

Exactly the point Phoenix..thank you! Perhaps this man didn't have the "brains god gave an ant"..maybe he was impaired in some way. You know, some people consider psychological probelms a handicap that deserve compassion and intervention rather than condemnation. Or maybe we should just shoot them all so that other, more deserving humans can consume the oxygen they are wasting.

Come on ..up on the bandwagon to murdering all the lower life-forms and non-deserving humans. Quick get on before you are judged the enemy and wiped out.

[Dellit Tandannon]

hehe, instant karma at work.

[CloakofStars9]

who's to say that had he lived he would have stopped at just beating animals, most people that turn out to be abusive towards kids and other human beings started out hurting and killing animals and usually don't stop there

[IsisErin]

I have to say I agree with Semele, when I read the story I was sad for the man first and then the dog. Sure, it's awful what people can do to animals, but I'm not of the 'eye for an eye and tooth for tooth' persuasion, even when it comes to defenceless animals.

Just my 2 pence...

[~ Monk ~]

Originally posted by Semele
Exactly the point Phoenix..thank you! Perhaps this man didn't have the "brains god gave an ant"..maybe he was impaired in some way. You know, some people consider psychological probelms a handicap that deserve compassion and intervention rather than condemnation.

But when you read this:


Raymond Poore Jr., 43, called his wife at work Thursday and told her that their dog had bitten him and he intended to kill the animal, said Winchester police Capt. David Sobonya.

The wife came home about 6 p.m. and found her husband unconscious, with a number of dog bites and scratches.

...do you really get the impression that this guy was impaired? He called his wife to tell her what he was going to do. And if he was impaired, unless his wife is a complete idiot, after receiving that kind of a phone call wouldn't she have rushed home immediately knowing he wasn't thinking straight?

I will say that maybe the guy didn't *deserve* to lose his life over it - but the fact that he did by doing something so ignorant and stupid generates no sympathy from me. Who knows, maybe his wife would have been the next one on the end of the gun. Would it be more acceptable for him to have lost his life if it had been her instead of the dog?

[Old Witch]

Originally posted by Semele
I am reading this thread in utter shock...no, not about the man and the dog, but rather how so many of you can rejoice at the tragedy. yes, it is sad that an animal was abused, but it is equally sad that a man has died.

Never did I think I would see a threa with the words man shot to death coupled with so many thumbs up signs. What is going through your minds to rejoice over the loss of life?

Incidentally, the dog will likely be put to sleep regardless so who really wins in this situation? Darwin?

Sorry, I will not feel sorry for anyone or anything that behaves like that........I save all my sympathy for the victims of creatures like that .........

[WitchJezebel]

Well said, Shpongle!!

[Danustouch]

Yep Semele, I guess I am Callous. I think that wifebeaters, and animal abusers , and Child Abusers do NOT deserve sympathy when they are accidentally killed during the process of abusing their victims. I wonder how many people would be so sympathetic to the abuser if it WAS a woman, or a child, or even a PREGNANT woman, had this same thing happened.

And you may think me hypocritical...except, you'll have to notice what I said....

" A Purposeful, Malicious, intentional attack.".

I know what you are comparing this to, and I've already stated my opinion about that in other threads. The two situations are far differen't. This man was not beating the dog in self defense. He wasn't in fear of his life, or he would have merely SHOT the dog WHILE the dog was being aggressive. He waited. He waited until AFTER the dog had attacked him, And AFTER he made sure he himself was okay. Took the time to phone his wife, and tell her (which means it was premeditated, not something that happened in the heat of the moment), and then, commenced not only to quickly KILL the animal..but to BEAT him. There is a HUGE difference between this, and the other subject you are addressing. He could have called the Dog Warden. And had the dog taken away. He could have had the dog euthenized. He could have shot the dog in the head. Instead, his motivation was rage. Not self defense. He wanted to cause the dog PAIN, purposefully. Not just end the dogs aggression.

It's not as if the dog was rabid, and had him pinned against a wall , and he was just fighting the dog off. And we STILL don't know WHY this dog bit the man. Perhaps the man had just kicked him. Perhaps the man was taunting him, throwing rocks at him. And in the DOGS eyes, he was biting out of self defense. How can I have sympathy for a man who beats the dog half to death with a GUN and then get's hurt in the process? Nope. No sympathy here. If that makes me callous, so be it. People who are abusive, are CHRONICHALLY abusive. They are intensely difficult to "reform", and many of them, never do. I may feel sorry that he wound up abusive in the firstplace, but I will NOT feel sorry that once he had, fate decided to keep him from being abusive anymore.

[Valnorran]

Well, I know my opinion is in the minority here, but...

I see a world of difference between victimizing an animal and victimizing a human being. Now, I'm not defending this guy. What evidence we have points to malicious behavior on his part, but I don't see how hitting a dog justifies a dead human. Seems to me folks will call for a man's head when he's cruel to an animal but when he's cruel to another person and placed on death row, these same people call for abolishing the death penalty.

The man was a waste of human tissue? Well, maybe he was. I've known plenty of animals that served no purpose other than to be a nuisance, too mentally whacked out to be trained or controlled. Strays of that sort show up around my home fairly frequently. Wastes of animal tissue. So, by such logic, no one should have a problem with it if I blasted said animal out of existence, right?

Animal abuse is reprehensible, but in my opinion it is no where near as heinous as human abuse. Same principle at work, but seperated by so many degrees that they're miles apart.

One final note. I know it's virtually inconceivable, but the news media do occasionally get their facts wrong. There is every possibility that what we got was either incomplete or misreported.

[Lacykitten]

The fact is that death row is not a great thing. How many innocent people have been killed because of it? That's the only reason I'm against it - unless there is a guarantee that the person dying is the one who did the crime.. it's.. yeah.

I think if you kill any creature, human or animal, out of any reason except self defense, or defense of others, or to put a wounded, suffering, ill, etc being out of it's misery.. etc ec... it's a life for a life. We should not have the right to take life away: our lives should be forfeit if we do - UNLESS we intend to, and do, somehow make it up - by working against abuse, pain, suffering, etc. If someone is going to reform, then they should not be killed.. but if they're going to kill things and beat things and abuse things then they should not be permitted to remain in this world.

[shnen]

Valnorran,
Of course I don't think that a person should die for beating an animal, or another human being, but the irony is just too wonderful to pass up. I was not saying to just merely go out and start shooting at everyone hitting animals.. its that this time it backfired. Good to see Darwin hasn't completely left the world...

and as far as you comment goes about the media... that goes for ANYTHING you hear, or read, so why believe any of it?

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Lacykitten:
I think if you kill any creature, human or animal, out of any reason except self defense, or defense of others, or to put a wounded, suffering, ill, etc being out of it's misery.. etc ec... it's a life for a life. We should not have the right to take life away: our lives should be forfeit if we do
I don't go this far with it, simply because I'm not a vegetarian.

I look at it as Dellit said, "instant payback." Karma's a bit misleading under the circumstances, since it has more to do with one's life-path than with just the consequences of a stupid action.

If the guy had been too "impaired" to know right from wrong, I could feel some sympathy. If what had happened resulted from an honest accident, I could feel some sympathy. The only thing this guy deserves is a Darwin Award--and I've felt more sympathy for past winners than I would feel for this guy!

**Shakes head** He wasn't medically impaired; he was just terminally stupid.

[Eudaimonia]

I don't have a huge problem w/killing an animal for a reason other than self defense or food. (Venison... ah, venison).

Case in point: my mum and her next door neighbor both own 10 acre plots of land. One of their dogs went wild, and began killing our animals. The first was a rabbit: Jamal (the dog) ripped it's legs off while it was caged, and then left it to die. About a week later, it killed the other two rabbits (which were supposed to be breeders, damnit!). We found fluffs of fur. It also murdered our cat, after mutilating it (broken legs, ribs, and multiple lacerations). It also killed a procession of 4 kittens within a week of their arrival.

Jamal was shot, and then drug out into the woods and buried. I say good riddence.


Now, there's one side of the argument. I feel that we were justified in killing this dog. First pets, then people... perhaps not self defense (he had yet to attack a human) but still self protection.

On the other side of the spectrum...

At another house, my mums (ex) bf used to have a boxer named Boxer. He shot this dog because it couldn't help itself when it came to chickens. He would kill the chickens. Mayhap it's just me, but I don't feel too partial to chickens anyway. We had 72 rabbits at the time of this dog, and not a one was harmed by him. Same w/the two cats, the two ducks, and the goose. Boxer just had this thing for chickens... he wasn't wild or too badly trained. Rodney (the bf), I feel, was not justified in killing this dog. He was simply being drunk and stupid.


I guess this goes to show that there are exceptions to every rule. And there are always those fine lines, eh?

[Old Witch]

Missed the point......The man in the article was beating the dog with a loaded gun.........He wanted to inflict pain, make the dog suffer.......If he had just shot the dog dead, he would probably still be alive.......not the same thing really........He was killed by his own stupidity.........

[Lacykitten]

Euda.. er.. um.. I'll just leave it at that. *laugh*

I'll let "food" be in my list of "okay to kill" reasons.. not for me.. but most of the world isn't veg.. and it extends to animals too, half of which need to kill for food..

Self defense or defense of others is one of my "okays to hurt/kill if need be". Other than predators.. eating animals for /food/.. not just killing them.. it's self defense. Especially if it is a pet, a fuzzy family member. If another animal ever hurt or killed one of mine, I'd do the same as if an animal or person was hurting my human family members, and do my best to make it stop.. and never hurt them again.

The first dog definately sounded mad, and I think it better that it be put down than many animals suffering and dying. Especially when animals go /mad/, there's a huge danger that it could involve humans as well..

The dog with chickens.. I'm not sure.. It doesn't feel as justifiable as the first case.. I mean it's still horrible that it killed chickens! And I like chickens quite a bit, myself. But if it was not a danger to all animals, or even a few different kinds, it likely wouldn't have escalated to hurting others or humans either.. I'm sure another solution could have been found that didn't invovle killing the animal... but I guess people make their own solutions. :(

[Eudaimonia]

I wondered, at the time, why we didn't just get rid of the chickens.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Eudaimonia
At another house, my mums (ex) bf used to have a boxer named Boxer. He shot this dog because it couldn't help itself when it came to chickens. He would kill the chickens. Mayhap it's just me, but I don't feel too partial to chickens anyway. We had 72 rabbits at the time of this dog, and not a one was harmed by him. Same w/the two cats, the two ducks, and the goose. Boxer just had this thing for chickens... he wasn't wild or too badly trained. Rodney (the bf), I feel, was not justified in killing this dog. He was simply being drunk and stupid.


I guess this goes to show that there are exceptions to every rule. And there are always those fine lines, eh?

By this logic, a person who murders only those most despicable of humans should be left alone because they aren't harming the nice people?!?!?! You know I don't particularly care for loud mouthed teens, so maybe that would be ok! Just stay away from those cute, cuddly little bunnies!:rolleyes:

[Marchosias]

Ive heard a life for a life here plenty...great, but what does it mean? Frankly nature is not kind, nor just, nor cuddly. That is reserved for fantasy. Nature is brutal, savage, and out for itself. And we are just as much a part of that nature as a bunny, rabid dog, waiting spider, tribe of army ants, or a hunting tiger. Frankly, I think its a shame the gun went off. It was never mentioned WHAT HAPPENED before the call to his wife! The dog very well could have been mad, but that IS doubtful. I agree though, the man was stupid. Wanting to get revenge is fine, but maybe with a club, or knife. He died--oh well. Millions die every day, just in the USA! I could never understand then why people go nuts over a few astronauts, a whacked dog, a shot child...under that mentality, you would spend your entire life crying over people/animals you dont know, and have no reason to care about. And going back to the whole "eye for an eye" thing. GREAT FREAKIN IDEA!! You kill billions of bacteria, and other small creatures with every move you make. Congratulations---you too can commit genocide!!!

[SerenityMoon]

Way to go, <b> Danustouch</b>!! I completely agree. He was out to inflict harm, pain, in a slow, and suffering way might I add. He could have shot the damn dog in the head, but he didn't. Premeditated, uneeded harm such as this deserved what he got. Idiot. I guess some of us are "callous", but I dno't consider the belief in getting what you give back callous.

[Wyrdsister]

Wow... twisted.

[Marchosias]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
Way to go, <b> Danustouch</b>!! I completely agree. He was out to inflict harm, pain, in a slow, and suffering way might I add. He could have shot the damn dog in the head, but he didn't. Premeditated, uneeded harm such as this deserved what he got. Idiot. I guess some of us are "callous", but I dno't consider the belief in getting what you give back callous.

Then, assuming he lived, the man would have suffered none from the dogs bite? I assure you, it hurts. A similer thing happened to me when I was younger--bite wounds get infected very easily. Had I not been so young, the mutt would have been toast--after much suffering. I call nobody callous, but it is interesting how, even when the human is, or very well could have been, "in the right" (if such a thing exists) , many here favor the animal.

Humans. We are SUCH an intersting species.

PS---The dog had gotten off its leash after struggling against its owner, I was in the way.

[Danustouch]

Again, Marchosois, we have NO clue why the dog bit in the first place...but..a little bit of basic human psychology leads me to believe that if this man, was capable enough to call his wife, and tell her he was going to kill the dog, and then go and beat the dog half to death with a rifle, that the man PROBABLY had a fairly physical, aggressive, abusive personality to begin with. Knowing that, it isn't TOO Difficult to believe, that maybe, just maybe..he TRAINED The dog to be aggressive. Maybe, he was one of those jerks who raise "guard dogs" by using abusive means...starvation, physical abuse, etc. We don't know the details of this story...we do not know WHY the dog bit in the first place. But what we DO know, is that in MOST cases, dogs do not bite without a reason. Sure, there are times that they snap. Suddenly. Sure. Some dogs have behavioral problems to begin with. But..you'd figure that if this were the case, they'd have gotten rid of the dog sooner. MOST of the time a dog exhibits aggressive behavior, it is out of self defense, or defense of it's human family. Or...because it has been TAUGHT to do so. So...One of a few things happened here. Either this was ONE snap in the dogs personality, The Jerkhead who the dog bit had TRAINED him to be a guard/attack dog, the Dog had been previously brutalized, starved, or abused in some other way, or the Dog was trying to protect something.

Now.. The dog somehow deserves to be beaten, stabbed, or shot? How is that? I'm sure that if the dog was Rabid, or An abnormally violent dog by nature, it would have said so in the story. Because it would have made the mans death, seem like a greater tragedy. "Man, defending himself against rabid/mad/chronichally bad behaved dog, shoots self, while in self defense". The headlines would have been sympathetic. Instead, it seems that this was a case where the OWNER of the dog, was just a jerk to begin with.

Yes. Dog bites hurt. But..most people who own dogs, realize that this is something that CAN happen. Thus, they either educate themselves about the dogs background, train the dog, and learn to work WITH The dog. Are you telling me, that most people who have owned a dog, raised a dog, loved that dog, would beat the dog within an inch of their life if he bit them? Balogney. My brother is a pretty physical kind of guy. A pretty tempermental type of guy. He raised a rottweiller from puppyhood. The rotty was the BEST behaved dog for the LONGEST time. A real sweetheart. Oneday, my brother had company. Rocky, the rottweiller, kept jumping up on the guest to get his attention, wanting to play. My brother was outside working on the guests car. Guest was on phone. Instead of calling my brother in from the house, or simply giving Rocky a firm "NO!" The Guest decided to give Rocky a backhand across the face. A HARD backhand. Rocky took a chunk out of the Guests hand. Rocky snapped. But..not without a reason. Certain breeds have their "triggers". For Rottweillers, you have to be careful, especially if the dog is adopted. Because when you raise a hand to them, they CAN snap. My Big, Bad Brother, who probably COULD have beaten Rocky up, or Killed him, Simply took care of his friends hand, (took him to the ER, paid the bill, etc), came home, put the leash on Rocky, Brought him to the pound, and cried all the way home.

Most people who own animals, are aware of the risk involved with owning animals. They inform themselves about the breed, its triggers, and what needs to be done, should the dog go "bad".

A dog biting, is NOT an excuse to beat the crap out of a dog. Especially, when in general, it's often HUMAN ERROR which causes the dog to bite.

(Not all the time. I realize there are exceptions to this rule. But often enough, to make it a "majority" of cases)

[Marchosias]

I completely agree. In fact, its PROBABLE that the guy started it.

Just seems odd how the value of human life seems to fluctuate so much. And any other life, for that matter.

Either way, Ill be honest...I tire of this thread. While the situation is not a happy one by any view, the fact IS, we dont have many facts, and seem to be basing arguments on speculation. Perhaps this discussion may be carried on with a more concrete situation...

[Old Witch]

If you are tired of it, just ignore it. Some of us may want to carry on a little longer...........

[SerenityMoon]

Marchosias: Yeah, dog bites hurt. So? Put the damn dog down if it's a threat. That's no reason to beat something to death. If a guy punches another guy, it hurts. But should be beat him to death? No. Weak comparison, maybe, but it's the same principle, given they are both living things. Whose to say the dog wasn't provoked, or trained, as Danustouch suggested? And if he REALLY wanted to kill it, he had every option to just shoot it. No, i don't believe shooting it (unless it was out of control and unable to be restrained) would have been any more humane, but he had the choice to do that. instead, he let it suffer and purpously inflicted pain. An animal's bite is generally in self defense or if the dog were mad, neither of which we know. but we do know that the man took the time to call his wife, plan his attack, and then beat the dog.
*shrug* indeed, if you're tired of the thread, that's fine and dandy, but some of us wish to debate the issue.

[Marchosias]

As I said, it probably was the guys fault. I was just making the point that beating the crap out of something that bit you, for whatever reason, doesnt neccessarily make you the lord of evil. Anyway, happy debating. Hope somebody finds something to debate about this that hasnt been gone over. Time for beddy-bye. :)

[Saphra]

My Gods people, I know that what he did was wrong, but we are talking about life here. I thought we were supposed to rejoice in life, not be happy when it is taken away. I agree totally with Semele on this situation. How can we be happy about the loss of life, even in someone so stupid.
He could have been locked in jail with the child-abuseres, and wife-beaters and I feel that would have been better for him.

[CloakofStars9]

i said it once and ill say it again, the world works in mysterious ways....who is to say that this man would have stopped at beating animals???
its a well known fact that most killers and serial killers were known to have a history of beating, mutilating and killing animals in their youth...
who knows if this guy would have stopped at beating the animal...maybe the next time it could have been another human being...
whats meant to be will be, in my opinion
justice has been done

[Lacykitten]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon

No, i don't believe shooting it (unless it was out of control and unable to be restrained) would have been any more humane

Yes, it would have been more humane. Would you rather die in a quick way - even if you had to be shot multiple times, it's a lot faster to die with intense gunshot pain when the person eventually hits something vital or the brain and kills you.. than it is to get literally beaten to death. I'd take shot over beaten to death any day. It's definately the more humane of the two, for the creature suffering.

[IsisErin]

Originally posted by CloakofStars9

i said it once and ill say it again, the world works in mysterious ways....who is to say that this man would have stopped at beating animals???

I don't think we can prosecute this man for crimes he had never committed and maybe never would have.

Just my 2 pence.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Saphra:
My Gods people, I know that what he did was wrong, but we are talking about life here. I thought we were supposed to rejoice in life, not be happy when it is taken away. I agree totally with Semele on this situation. How can we be happy about the loss of life, even in someone so stupid.
I can be happy, simply because in a choice of one life vs. another, the more valuable life persevered. A human's life is not intrinsically more valuable than a dog's, or any other animal's--value is something one earns through the course of one's life through one's own actions. And if this is any indication, the man didn't do a whole heck of a lot to justify his own continued existence at the dog's expense.


He could have been locked in jail with the child-abuseres, and wife-beaters and I feel that would have been better for him. I'd just as soon not pay for his room & board, truth be told.

[flar7]

hmmmm, where to start?

The value of a man's life? Some have suggested that perhaps the
man may have went on later to become more violent and hurt
something or someone else. Maybe, or conversely, he sees the
dog he has beaten to death and feels true shame and remorse
for the first time in his life, and it moves him to be a better man.
He becomes someone "worthy" of life due to the sacrifice of this
poor animal, perhaps to become a healer, a vet, a holy man, a
counselor, etc. etc. This is similar to the things that kids do when
growing up. They kill an innocent animal, maybe more than one,
and some learn from the experience and some take longer to
learn this lesson or perhaps never learn.

With life there is always hope for change and learning, to lose that
life is to lose that chance at redemption or change.

Just another view. I do feel its wrong to celebrate another's death
regardless. Maybe there death was necessary or deserved, but
definitely no cause for rejoicing...........another light gone out.

[CloakofStars9]

the point of this thread was to see the irony in all this

thats all...


peace

[mol]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

I can be happy, simply because in a choice of one life vs. another, the more valuable life persevered.

I will make sure to check with you the next time I need to know how much a life is worth.

[mol]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon

Way to go, Danustouch!! I completely agree. He was out to inflict harm, pain, in a slow, and suffering way might I add. He could have shot the damn dog in the head, but he didn't. Premeditated, uneeded harm such as this deserved what he got. Idiot. I guess some of us are "callous", but I dno't consider the belief in getting what you give back callous.

:) Wow, what a great fuel thread. I am going to keep this one bookmarked so the next time a debate goes on about an abortion doctor, etc getting killed or an abortion complication resulting in a mother's death, I can reference this thread as I express my glee in the Karmatic turn of events.

I think a lot of you are pretty sick to find happiness in another's death. But, oh well, to each their own. I guess I am one of a few people left that values light on light and not through the eyes of my own ego's value system.

And there is mine.

[CloakofStars9]

:rolls eyes::

[Danustouch]

There are a few big differences between these two topics. Which I've pointed out in another thread. I don't know ANY woman who is getting ready to go get an abortion, who calls people up ahead of time and says..."I'm going to kill the little _________". A womans intent in getting an abortion, is more about self preservation, and a problem which seems insurrmountable to her. It is not a deliberate, malicious, vengeance seeking action. This man was not overcome by fear of his circumstances. He was safely INSIDE the house, and AWAY from the dog, when he picked up the phone, to call his wife, and tell her he was going to kill the dog. A woman who is in fear about a pregnancy, cannot escape her "Perceived" harm. Whether YOU perceive the harm involved, does not lessen the fact that SHE perceives a threaght to herself, in one form or another. This man, could have picked up the phone, and had the dog taken away. He COULD have shot the dog in the head, if the dog was rabid, or mad, to protect himself. The manner in which he went about harming this dog, PROVES that it was NOT self defense, but VENGEANCE. And before you can even say that some women might abort a child because of vengeance over a relationship gone awry....I will tell you here and now. I'd feel the same way about a woman who did that, as this man beating the dog. Self defence, Self preservation, abject fear, are emotions that I can understand, and sympathize with. A human being, beating an animal, when it is possible that the animal was defenseless (i.e tied up, hobbled, muzzled) out of a quest for pure vengeance, is something I CANNOT sympathize with. Neither would I sympathize with a woman who aborted a child as a way to "get back" at her ex partner.

Abortion is an experience which MOST women make, with a certain amount of guilt, regret, pain, and a great deal of thought. She's not out for vengeance. Not out to torture. She simply wants to escape the painful or confusing, or frightening situation in which she finds herself. There is a difference.

As for abortion doctors....How many PURELY abortion DOCTORS do you know? They are Doctors. Their role is to treat people who seek medical attention through them. THE WOMAN is the one who SEEKS their aid. Many doctors who perform abortions, do so because they would rather the abortion is performed in a safe, clean, sanitary environment, then in a back alley, at home in the womans bathroom, through herbs which could cause the woman to bleed to death, etc. It's a matter of the lesser of two evils to these doctors. One life, Verses TWO. The same could be said for doctors who are put in a situation of having to choose an unborn child over the life of its mother, or vice versa, in an emergency situation. The Doctors do not take "Joy" in performing abortions. The Doctors do not do so with malicious glee, or out of a sense of vengeance. They have weighed their consciense, and chosen what seemed the best thing for them to do. I seriously doubt that the man who beat this dog to death, did the same.

As for abortion clinic bombings...you know..many so-called abortion clinics, also provide counseling for women who've already had an abortion. Or who are in the process of deciding whether or not they WANT to have an abortion. And MOST doctors fairly weigh each side of the option with the pregnant woman. MANY are also places women can go to seek treatment for rape. For STD's. Or pregnancy testing in general. In addition, many of the people there, are friends of, or family of the person seeking counseling, or abortion. What about the nurses there? Whom Do not perform the abortions, but who are there to make sure that AFTER the abortion, the woman is comforted? What about the counselors? What about the women who have not made up their mind. Or the women just finding out they are pregnant? Or seeking birth control. Should they all die too?

So you see...the situations are more than a fair bit differen't. Seems to me, that people are pulling aces out of their sleeves, and making comparisons which do not quite fit, in order to make people feel guilty for their opinions. In my opinion, it is one thing to debate an issue. To give your opinion, and say "I don't think it was a good thing that this person died". However, to try to make another person feel GUILTY for THEIR opinion, is emotional terrorism. If you want to debate the issue, debate the issue. Don't try to make the others debating the other side, feel badly about their opinion. That's my .02

[Lacykitten]

Wow Danustouch.. just wow. That was very eloquently and intelligently stated. I also agree with what you said, the issues are not one in the same. I just wanted to say that, and that.. I really admire your intelligence. :)

[WynterWynd]

I'm with Lacy in th Wow, Danustouch!!! Very well spoken, you took away that momentary twang of guilt I had for my opinion of this story.
;)

[Semele]

Originally posted by Danustouch
I'm sure that if the dog was Rabid, or An abnormally violent dog by nature, it would have said so in the story. Because it would have made the mans death, seem like a greater tragedy. "Man, defending himself against rabid/mad/chronichally bad behaved dog, shoots self, while in self defense". The headlines would have been sympathetic.

Riiight! Because we all know there is no such thing as journalism with a slant to one side or the other. Only true, absolutely factual information is released to the public, which is why we are even attempting to fill in the blanks with what ifs in this case.:rolleyes:

[Semele]

Originally posted by CloakofStars9

the point of this thread was to see the irony in all this

thats all...


peace

Mission accomplished. I see so much irony in the peaceful, loving folks here so full of disgust for a life lost when they don't know all the details. These same people form strong friendships with people online thousands of miles away and love them unconditionally and without hesitation, yet never really "know" the real person or the details of that persons life. That is perfect Irony in my opinion.

[WynterWynd]

I dont have a disgust for life, I have a disgust for the actions of that individual. I do find it ironic that what he sought to do to the dog, ended up being done to himself.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Danustouch
A womans intent in getting an abortion, is more about self preservation, and a problem which seems insurrmountable to her. It is not a deliberate, malicious, vengeance seeking action.

Again, you are speaking only of that which you have personal experience, you are in no way the authority on the intent of all who have ever had an aborftion, nor are any of us the authority on this man's intent or even his mental capacity to have intent.


Originally posted by Danustouch
And before you can even say that some women might abort a child because of vengeance over a relationship gone awry....I will tell you here and now. I'd feel the same way about a woman who did that, as this man beating the dog. Self defence, Self preservation, abject fear, are emotions that I can understand, and sympathize with.

As can I Danus. I have said that I firmly believe that women who have to make the decisions about abortion etc deserve compassion. However, I believe that they deserve compassion even if they made the decision in a manner similar to the decision this man made. You see... compassion and love can be given regardless of whether we find fault with the actions of the reciever.


Originally posted by Danustouch
Neither would I sympathize with a woman who aborted a child as a way to "get back" at her ex partner.

I think that this woman would also be in pain and deserve compassion. Not any more so than the woman who had other reasons, but no less either. Same end result..life lost and the woman with the guilt and pain. I don't have to agree with her decision and I can even think somewhere in the recesses of my mind that it is Karmic retribution for her to feel that pain, but I still recognize the women in pain as a fellow human in pain and that I hate to see.


Originally posted by Danustouch
As for abortion doctors....How many PURELY abortion DOCTORS do you know? They are Doctors. Their role is to treat people who seek medical attention through them.

So it is like a balancing act, as long as they save as many lives as they take it all works out in the end?

Ok, you know what that comment was wrong and was pure sarcasm and I hope you all see that. I don't think they deserve to be punished anymore than I think the women who have abortions do... nor can I rejoice in the loss of this man's life or any life for that matter.


Originally posted by Danustouch
In my opinion, it is one thing to debate an issue. To give your opinion, and say "I don't think it was a good thing that this person died". However, to try to make another person feel GUILTY for THEIR opinion, is emotional terrorism. If you want to debate the issue, debate the issue. Don't try to make the others debating the other side, feel badly about their opinion. That's my .02

I don't think anyone, certainly not me, is trying to make anyone feel guilty for their opinion...I am not a terrorist!!:D I was stating that it is trully sad to me that so many folks are happy about this loss. Why not just a comment like "wow this whole thing sucks, what a waste." However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. To make a comment that someone is using comparisons that don't fit is absurd, because to that person the comparison must fit.

For instance there are people who view all life as sacred and any loss of life a tragedy and a true loss, and never a cause for rejoicing. So to some, the comparison fits quite well.

I agree with Marchoasis in that this topic has been, pardon the pun, beat to death. Just know that I am not now nor have I ever tried to make anyone feel guilty for their opinion...when I speak it is my feelings I am sharing, not attempts to demean someone elses. I will leave with one final thought, My husband has said to me on the phone that he is going to "kill that damn cat if she doesn't stay out of the blinds." What if after him saying something like that to me one day the cat scratches our baby and he out of fear and anger and adrenalin throws the cat away from the baby and she hits the wall and dies from a head injury? Yes, it is a loss and the loss would be mourned very deeply.

Before you reply telling me my comparrison is inaccurate, know that I am referring only to the argument that he made the statement he was going to kill the dog.

[SerenityMoon]

Mol, I dno't understand the point in posting what I said about the thread being good fuel? what on earth did I say have to do with that?
And don't even get me STARTED on abortion. I agree with most of what Danustouch said, not to mention I'm completely pro-choice.
ah, meh. It's amazing how callous and hateful people make you out to be when you're just so darn tired of humanity proving to be stupider and more violent day after day.
As my good friend likes to say: Euthenize the stupid.

[Epona44]

When we first heard about this incident in our newsroom, the five reporters and four editors all reacted the same way.

"Well, good, he deserved it." Yes that is callous and he is certainly a candidate for the Darwin awards, provided that he died without producing children.

I think the reaction was based on a concept of cosmic justice. Everyone was rooting for the dog.

It does seem harsh. But, the judgement was based on the information presented. With more information perhaps people would feel differently. But then, perhaps not.

[Hamelyn]

I'm not an expert on anything other than the situations I've personally been involved in. Even then, when I'm in the thick of a situation, I can only make so many decisions and understand so much. I'm somewhat familiar with journalism, though, and I don't think it's neccessarily wise to put one's entire faith in the media's representation of a situation. We weren't there and we can't really say we understand all the factors at work. I'd use a metaphor but it would get shot through and disected, so nah. I think that Danustouch and Euda and Mol and some other people had really good points. Despite their being opposing ones.

On my end, I'm feeling somewhat detatched this morning. The article is certainly ironic. I don't agree with a lot of the things people are saying, though. It's a topic a lot of people feel strongly about, and I understand that this would lead to zeal. Not complaining. But I've been seeing some opinion slashing some on this thread, so I'm going to more or less disregard it. Not the point of the forum, and I don't want to share my opinion on something where it will obviously get laughed at. Next thread.

[Semele]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon

Mol, I dno't understand the point in posting what I said about the thread being good fuel? what on earth did I say have to do with that?
And don't even get me STARTED on abortion. I agree with most of what Danustouch said, not to mention I'm completely pro-choice.
ah, meh. It's amazing how callous and hateful people make you out to be when you're just so darn tired of humanity proving to be stupider and more violent day after day.
As my good friend likes to say: Euthenize the stupid.

Euthenize the stupid huh? What exactly qualifies as stupid? Is it the lack of ability to write in a manner that can be understood? The lack of ability to use proper punctuation and form complete sentences? I fear for your life at the hand of your friend.

Of course, I am being sarcastic and trying to point out that what one person finds stupid may be what the rest of the world understands to be human nature. There is a reason it is illegal to kill people. Humans are incapable of making rational, emotionless decisions about life and death. Comments such as Euthenize the stupid are, quite frankly, in large part, to blame for "humanity proving to be stupider and more violent day after day".

[Phoenix Blue]

There is a reason it is illegal to kill people. Humans are incapable of making rational, emotionless decisions about life and death.
Actually, most humans are capable of making perfectly rational decisions about life and death. Not emotionless, though. . . :) we're not emotionless creatures to begin with, and death is a very emotional issue. Still, emotions can form a basis for rational thought; it just takes a bit of work.

[IsisErin]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
As my good friend likes to say: Euthenize the stupid.

Oh my. Reading that made me very sad. How do you determine who's stupid or not? And can anyone really call anyone else stupid? Everyone's personality is different, and I'm not sure intelligence is something that can be measured. I can't understand how anyone can possibly have grounds for saying something like that.

[SerenityMoon]

Semele and Isis Erin:
Hey, guess what? I didn't say those words. someone else did. Guess what else? It's SARCASTIC.
I've come to notice that the world is divided into two groups: people who see humanity as fluffy-bunny-pink, and people who see humanity as something sometimes nice and sometimes harsh and cruel (mostly harsh and cruel). I am the latter. I am blunt, I do not put up with STUPID (and I will use this word freely, given that I believe a stupid person is one who has the resources to be intelligent or educated-both of which can be measured- and refuses to utilize them) people becuase I have had far too many experiences with them, and I don't care too much for the nature of humanity, given the fact that I have been victimized over and over by the bad side of it.
I've frankly had enough of the utter lack of respect for nature, animals, and other human beings that idiots like this man in the article has displayed. Therefore, I choose to not sympathize with him. But yet you make me out to be this monster. Tsk. It is to laugh.

[Semele]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon

I've come to notice that the world is divided into two groups: people who see humanity as fluffy-bunny-pink, and people who see humanity as something sometimes nice and sometimes harsh and cruel (mostly harsh and cruel).

*smile* you are not the first to call me a fluffy bunny or white lighter or many other similar titles.


Originally posted by SerenityMoon
I am the latter. I am blunt, I do not put up with STUPID (and I will use this word freely, given that I believe a stupid person is one who has the resources to be intelligent or educated-both of which can be measured- and refuses to utilize them) people


So blunt is your chosen style eh? How is this for blunt, (bare in mind I am stepping out of my fluffy bunny mode to suit your preferred style), your explanation of stupid leads me to a couple of inquiries. Have you not had the proper resources to be intelligent or educated? Or perhaps you are refusing to utilize those resources and education? What leads me to this conclusion? Why nothing but your use, in your last post, of the word stupider .

Ordinarily I wouldn't point out something so trivial, but you seem a little hung up on the idea that this man was stupid and thus deserved to die...I say stupid is relative and we shouldn't have our fates decided by whether or not someone thinks we are stupid. I do realise that the euthenize the stupid thing is mostly a joke, but some folks are very firm in their beliefs of their own superiority related to intelligence, race, religion, gender, and virtually anything else they can drum up.

[SerenityMoon]

stu·pid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
Pointless; worthless: a stupid job

wow. look. Stupider is in there. Gaspo! Great job on the bluntness. Yep, i'm hung up on the idea, becuase I believe in my opinion. *Shrug* And I really couldn't care less that it bothers you this much. No, I take it back..it amuses me that the fact I think this man was stupid (and i'm not the only one, mind you, but you seem so damn "hung up" on pointing me out) bothers you so much.
Teeeee....^___^

[Semele]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon

stu·pid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
Pointless; worthless: a stupid job

wow. look. Stupider is in there. Gaspo! Great job on the bluntness. Yep, i'm hung up on the idea, becuase I believe in my opinion. *Shrug* And I really couldn't care less that it bothers you this much. No, I take it back..it amuses me that the fact I think this man was stupid (and i'm not the only one, mind you, but you seem so damn "hung up" on pointing me out) bothers you so much.
Teeeee....^___^

Touche'

:cool: I am stupider than the average Site Goddess!:D

I'm really not hung up on pointing you out...I'm just in an odd mood of late. Please excuse me....too much pressure in my head is squishing my brain I am afraid!

[SerenityMoon]

*bows* thank you.
and believe me, i know how brains squishing out can feel. damn college...

[Lunacie]

One of the most difficult lessons we must learn in growing up, or maturing, is that Life Isn't Fair. So when I see something that looks like it did turn out more Fair than usual, I tend to smile. I've been very angry at times and thought I completely lost my cool, but this puts my actions into a whole different perspective.
* shrug *

[Marchosias]

Ooh, Serenity is the big, bad BLUNT person now! Alright, I like blunt. So you define stupid as being careless, and not utilising the resources you have to be less stupid. Or something along those lines.

You also mentioned that you are pro-choice. Great. A teen (lets say girl) makes a careless, spur of the moment, STUPID decision to have sex. She gets pregnant. Your ideas conflict here...on one side of the coin, she should just be able to kill the kid. Her body, right? Right... On the other side, she was stupid! She had the KNOWLEDGE and the RESOURCES, and therefor the capability to make a GOOD decision. She didnt. She was stupid. You, Miss Blunt, dont put up with stupid! So that little wench had better have that kid, right? Or maybe she should be shot! After all, what could come next in her career of stupid decisions? Murder? Torture? Genocide?

ALSO! By your dictionary definition of "stupid" all mentally impaired (aka retarded) people are stupid. Do you put up with them? Or just backhand little Johnny when he gets in your way? After all, those worthless flesh bags are stupid!

It may just be me, but your views seem so contradictory. Perhaps you could clarify?

P.S.-- Give me a call next time you do something "stupid". Ill make sure to reccomend you for death row.

[Lacykitten]

Not all mentally impaired individuals are "stupid" - I went to a high school that had a Special Ed program with.. I think 10 or 15 kids (at a time) who had various... things. I haven't the faintest clue what, as I never really looked into those sorts of things.. but some of these kids were very bright.

Stupid, by Serenity's definition that she gave, would be anyone, including these kids, not utilizing the stuff that they can. It would be them not going to school, or not furthering their education.. not using what they CAN use.

I agree with that. I don't care how brilliant you may be - you're sutpid if you don't use the resources that are available to you. Everyone has them, they are often different, but everyone's got SOME resources, and it's up to THEM to use them. Including mentally impaired people.

[Valnorran]

Just to nitpick...

Gifted and talented students usually fall under special ed.

[SerenityMoon]

Marchosias:
babe, if you wanna argue what the dictionary stated, you go right ahead.
And the reason I used that definition was not to clarify my beliefs, it was merely to point out to Semele that "stupider" was a valid word to use. I don't base my belief on what stupid is on that definition. I already stated what I thought it meant.
yes, i think a teenage girl who gets pregnant having unprotected sex is stupid. if she uses her RESOURCES and gets pregnant, then no, it was a mistake. Did I say every stupid person should be shot? Nope. Consequences are different for every situation and choice. She has the choice whether to have the child and adequately look after it, or to end its life.
*shrug* I've done stupid things in my life and have had to pay for them. dearly. I was raped at the result of making a stupid choice. That was my responsibility. Different consequences happen as a result of different acts of stupidity. This man was stupid by using a gun to beat a dog, a loaded gun at that. In result, he shot himself.
Don't twist words, deary.
It'sjust as LacyKitten said: you have the resources to make smart choices, including common sense, which this person obviously didn't use. Mentally impaired people are far from stupid. You said this, the dictionary said this, not I. I merely said that one needs to use the resources given. Mentally impaired people have excellent opportunities to further their education. How does my definition or the dictionary's state that mentally retarded people are stupid? it states that stupid is without intelligence. Mentally impaired people are fary from without intelligence. They have intelligence that they don't understand how to properly utilize. But they sure as hell try.
This idiot, on the other hand, didn't think or try at all. He did something far stupider than any mentally impaired person I know could have done.

[Marchosias]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon
. He did something far stupider than any mentally impaired person I know could have done.

While I wouldnt go that far, point taken.

[SerenityMoon]

the reason he was stupider is becuase he had the common sense to know not to swing a loaded weapon at something without the fear of getting shot yourself. a mentally impaired person may not know how to use the common sense, thus resulting in an action such as this.

[Lunacie]

So? It's no longer PC to use the word "stupid"?

How 'bout if we use "stoopud"?



The man was an idiot, a moron, and stupid to boot. I don't see how anyone can argue about that. The point of contention seems to be whether stupid people deserve to die. I suppose my thinking is that it depends on the circumstances. I do, however, love the irony when what is going around comes around without the usual time lag.

[~ Monk ~]

Originally posted by Saphra
I thought we were supposed to rejoice in life, not be happy when it is taken away.


Originally posted by mol
I think a lot of you are pretty sick to find happiness in another's death.

I wonder, and I ask this not as an attack but in all seriousness, did those of you who see this as a terrible loss of life also feel the same way about the terrorists who hijacked the planes on 9/11? Or any terrorist for that matter? How about someone who is put to death for, say, a racially motivated murder? Is that also a tragic loss?

Recently our former governor pardoned all death row inmates. Two of those inmates (one man, one woman) were sentenced to death because they had broken into a pregnant mother's apartment/condo, killed her and several if not all of kids, cut her open and stole the baby from her womb. All because the woman (the one involved in the killing) had told her boyfriend she was pregnant when she really wasn't and needed a baby to prove she wasn't lying. She was going to bring the baby home to him and claim she'd had it in the hospital. Would these two people's deaths have been lamentable?

Or is it different for you because it was an animal on the end of that beating and not a person?

It seems like it boils down to two sides: those who view human life itself as totally sacred and therefore lamentable no matter how it's lost, and those who feel that what's *done* with human life is what makes it's loss lamentable - or not. At least that's what I gather from this thread.

Going off the information we have, I stand by my original thought - he may not have deserved to die, but it's not saddening to me that he did given the stupid way it happened.

[CloakofStars9]

"many people that live deserve death
and many people that die deserve life,
can you give it to them?" ~ gandalf the grey













justice was done
the end

[Eudaimonia]

I just need to clear something up here...

My post about the dogs being shot earlier was in reply to the 'no animal should ever be harmed' posts. I was trying to show (w/the first story) how it is sometimes neccesary. I don't agree w/the second... it just popped in my head after the story about that 'rabbit killer'. Rodney was a stupid f***.

[Saphra]

I will not be happy about the loss of life, be it a terrorist, a murderer, or an innocent. If they have done something wrong, then keep them in jail. I in no way would ever rejoice over death, and that is my feelings on it. This thread has gotten way over the top and I feel that maybe some of us are getting too angry (I am included in this) about what others are saying. So this is my last post in this specific thread and I hope that everyone will stop snaping at everyone. Blessed Be.

[mol]

Originally posted by Danustouch
So you see...the situations are more than a fair bit differen't. Seems to me, that people are pulling aces out of their sleeves, and making comparisons which do not quite fit, in order to make people feel guilty for their opinions. In my opinion, it is one thing to debate an issue. To give your opinion, and say "I don't think it was a good thing that this person died". However, to try to make another person feel GUILTY for THEIR opinion, is emotional terrorism. If you want to debate the issue, debate the issue. Don't try to make the others debating the other side, feel badly about their opinion. That's my .02

And I think the hate-FULL posts in this thread is a form of terrorism! Or rather an attempt to de-sensitize others to the violence being displayed here. Of course the man was wrong. Of course it was what you would call Karma that happened in this situation. But throwing a party for his demise is sick!

AND THATS MY opinion. Period. If you dont like...I dont care.

I mean c'mon. If you are going to dish it out, then take it too. If anyone feels guilty after reading my post's...then it wasnt because of me. Isnt your post directed at making ME feel guilty about my post!?

I assure you I dont feel guilty. I stand firm. Im also out of this discussion after two posts in. My heart aches after reading some of this...

[Epona44]

I know everyone here does not have the same belief system, so out of respect for that I'll post this as a suggestion.

I think it was a kind of karma.

I see people on an evolutionary road, both in body and spirit. We start off, like infants, without understanding or knowledge of our place or purpose in the universe.

Through numerous lives and incarnations, we make mistakes, use both good and poor judgement and some decisions kill us. We do not remember much of previous incarnations, but they are there, like a software that runs invisible in the background, leading us on in certain directions and toward certain goals.

Some of the lessons we are here to learn, some we have already learned. The recognition that animals are beings with emotion and intrinsic value in their own right -- indeed that other people have value -- is one of those lessons.

Those of us who are unkind to those who abuse the animals have already learned the lesson of the intrinsic value of beasts. But we are learning another lesson.

It is that we should decry the injury to the animals and the action itself. But we also need to understand that at some point in our own evolution we may have been where that man was.

It's an uncomfortable thought. But in order to get somewhere, you had to start somewhere.

That is all I have to say. I know this view might not be popular.

[CloakofStars9]

some of you people are taking this waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously, if you dont like this thread dont open it....

it was posted out of the fact that this incident was totally ironic and karmic...no one is "rejoicing" in the fact that a human life has been lost

but lets face it people, millions of people abuse animals everyday and never get punished for it

and our jails are overcrowded enough


i am truly sorry if anyone was affended by by this thread

but i dont regret posting it


peace

[Lunacie]

Some people expressed an appreciation for the "cosmic justice" in this situation, or were amused by the "irony" and the "karma", myself included. While some saw these expressions as "rejoicing at the loss of human life." I do understand the point about the loss of human life, but... (of course there is a but here).

There have been many dog-attacks-child or -man newstories where the dog(s) killed a human being. No one gets mad at the dog(s), only at the owner(s). Why? Because the belief is that dogs don't have the same intelligence and responsibility that humans do.

The human in this newstory did not make good use of his intelligence, and the responsibility for what happened to him is all his, at least from the information presented to us by the media. I have not been convinced that expressing appreciation for the cosmic justice or being amused by the irony is in any way wrong or immoral. That's my perspective.

[Lacykitten]

Almost always, when a dog attacks someone, it's not within the animal's control... Most dogs attack people because they were trained to - like how pit bulls and rotties and dobies have bad names, cos so many people breed them to be attack dogs.. and they attack people.. Trained or bred - you can breed animals for good qualities as well as bad.. which isn't really up to the animal to control. They don't really have resources to change how they were bred or trained.... that's our responsibility as the people who domesticated them.. to make them who they are.. so that they don't hurt people.

Or the dog has been taunted or hurt or abused.. and is scared. Most dogs that bite, who weren't trained to, are fear biters - regardless of how agressive they are it's more often than not fueled by fear rather than anger.. and if an animal's been abused, even a kid coming toward it can look the same and the dog could lash out in fear..

And then there's the various kinds of disease that can make animals react badly to other animals and people....

The difference is not the intelligence - though I don't think animals are the same KIND of intelligent we are... their minds work differently.. sorta thing.. - but that they don't really have a way to change what they're like.. without our help, anyway.. if a dog is violent when young, unless a human raises it to be a happy healthy peppy pup, it's going to remain violent half the time. People can see that they have a problem with violence, and there are so many options for us to get help if we see this, or see it in others, we can help them get help - but it's up to the individual when humans are concerned..

[Danustouch]

In my original reply, I DID say that I saw it as instant Karma. That is exactly what I saw it as. And there is a far cry between saying "all those who abuse people should be shot" and saying..."I don't feel sorry when an abuser receives their karmic return". Which was ..in essence..exactly what I was saying. And yes..I AM happy that he won't have the opportunity to harm another living creature again. This could have been acheived by jail, perhaps. Heavy medication, or a lobotomy...but...in my opinion, the universe thought otherwise. So...I'm not crying that the universe chose to prevent it by the method that it chose. And I AM happy that he won't be abusing anyone or anything else.


Or rather an attempt to de-sensitize others to the violence being displayed here.

Or...it could just be that we are defending ourselves, and our opinions, from being labelled as callous, insensitive, sick, or any one of a million other things. It is obvios that we differ in opinion here. My opinion, is that I don't feel sorry for the guy, a bit. Because it was karmic return, and because at least, he will not get the opportunity to continue in such an abusive manner.

In my opinion, this does not mean I'm callous, insensitive, sick, or terroristic. It simply means that I choose whom to feel sorry for in my life. And this man does not rate on that list. The Dog does.

Okay..allow me to explain something here. I have been in numerous abusive relationships. Came from an abusive home, I have been a victim of violence, and emotional abuse as well. First, growing up. In my home, with my family. (Emotional). Then, as an adult...

MANY people who come from such situations, find themselves in a pattern of blaming themselves, for causing the abuse. Many make excuses for their abusers. Many MORE keep going on and on and on and on in the cycle, because they feel "sorry" for their abusers. This may sound trite, and it may sound like a "pat" answer...but... It's something I'm working on right now in my life. Breaking the cycle (btw..for those of you who are interested, and can identify with what i'm saying, a book i'm working through right now, is 'Women who Love too Much".).

MY cycle, and MY pattern has been to accept abuse when I shouldn't, because I feel "Sorry" for my abusers. The men/people who abused me, have come from abusive homes and backgrounds themselves. So..when they abuse me...I say..."Oh..but he doesn't know any better. He never learned anything else". and "He really doesn't MEAN to do it. If I can only prove my love, and my worth to him, he'll be miraculously healed, and won't want to abuse me anymore". (which also puts me in ANOTHER pattern of 'needing to feel needed). So..I place myself in the position of "therapist", "Mother" and "Priest" to almost every relationship that I get involved in.

This IS NOT HEALTHY. In order to break the cycle, and reverse the pattern, I have had to reprogram myself slowly but surely to not give a FIG whether or not the person came from an abusive background, or give a FIG whether or not he himself ever healed. But to Take Care of myself, First, and foremost, if I am being abused.

Thus, when I see a case like this, I CANNOT make excuses for the abuser. Nor can I feel sorry that he has died. Why? Because this puts me BACK into the mindset of "therapist, Mother, Priest". Yep. I never met the man. Nor the dog. Yep..he never hurt me. But..working through a pattern which is as deeply ingrained as mine, means it is necessary to change my entire outlook, in general, WHENEVER I see abuse. Of any sort. If I started to feel sympathy for this guy. Or label it as a "tragedy", I'd be completely stripping myself of every single self empowering lesson that I have been learning in the past months.

There is no viable excuse for abuse. Nor should abusers be "coddled". Nor can I try and say.."Yes..he's abusive, but he's still human..and so I should feel sympathy for him". Because a person with my patterns, does NOT know where sympathy begins, and where sympathy ends. We can't draw a line on our sympathy. When a person is healing from patterns such as mine, they have to start off with an "All Or Nothing" attitude. "I will not tolerate abuse, in any form. I will not justify it. I will not try to 'fix' it. I will not take the blame for it, nor sympathize with it". Because if we don't, many of us will never break the pattern of "loving/forgiving/caring/sympathizing/helping/giving" too much.

And no..i'm not writing this for sympathy. Believe me. I don't want it. What I "DO" want, is to illustrate, how having the opinion that abusers should not be "coddled" or "excused" or be given sympathy, may not be "callous" or "Sick". But might be a mindset that one forms, in order to not allow themselves to be a doormat anymore. And I ask...PLEASE realize that what I have written in this post, is not merely me blowing smoke out of my arse. It's been something I've been studying for self healing for months now. And has alot of psychological basis. Please look at the book, before dismissing it as "hot air.".

[Danustouch]

OT, but Relevant in my opinion:

Here are some links about the book. I plan on posting about it in book forum too...but... wanted to maybe give you an idea what I mean about changing our entire outlook. "Loving too much" can be a disease. It's an addiction. Similar to Alchoholism. A person in AA would probably be ill advised to go to a bar with his old drinking buddies.

Likewise, a person who is addicted to abusive people, cannot for one minute start to feel sympathy for abusers. Perhaps when they have recovered... they might find they are able to draw the line...but..until then....

Anyway..here are some links.

http://www.angelfire.com/vt/rcwn/Pagethirtyeight.html

http://www.iramathur.org/Articles/233_WM25.11.01.htm

http://www.for-him.com/Thepath/characteristicsofwomen.htm

[banondraig]

As my good friend likes to say: Euthenize the stupid.
that's a little too easy. of course your friend is not including him/herself among the stupid, but who gets to decide? things like that are the slippery slope that leads to genocide (note i am not calling your friend genocidal, just pointing out that an attitude like that can be the starting point for such ugliness.)

btw, the correct spelling is euthanize.

[*GrumpButt*]

Yayy!thtas one less sicko in the world...

[Lamoondove]

OT, but Relevant in my opinion:

Here are some links about the book. I plan on posting about it in book forum too...but... wanted to maybe give you an idea what I mean about changing our entire outlook. "Loving too much" can be a disease. It's an addiction. Similar to Alchoholism. A person in AA would probably be ill advised to go to a bar with his old drinking buddies.

Likewise, a person who is addicted to abusive people, cannot for one minute start to feel sympathy for abusers. Perhaps when they have recovered... they might find they are able to draw the line...but..until then....

Anyway..here are some links.

http://www.angelfire.com/vt/rcwn/Pagethirtyeight.html

http://www.iramathur.org/Articles/233_WM25.11.01.htm

http://www.for-him.com/Thepath/characteristicsofwomen.htm


I Think is very cruel way some people treat animals, And people who hurt them get what they deserve( What goes around comes around , do bad it comes back to ya ) !!!!... And Ty for the book info i think u r so right loving someone to much is like a disease I think it even happend to me, i became all in love way to much with someone,Loved the ground he walked on,,Think he thought i was obsessed with him and think it ran him off.. Now i Know how it feels to be loved to much ,, So I can see how he felt ,, And I to in younger yrs use to be addicted to abusive men think it was cause i was so abussed when a child i have broke out of that ,, I will read your post ( Book ) on the subject... TY Bright Blessings

[Laisrean]

Beating something with a loaded gun is incredibly stupid. Doesn't he know that guns are for shooting?