Thor with a swastika? i don't get it

[Tranquility]

This is a short and plain question, why was Thor's symbol the swastika?
"His symbol was the device known as the swastika. "
Could this have been a triskele mistaken for a modern day swastika? i don't understand why he would have a swastika, what is the actual meaning of them.. of course they are associated with hitler, but what do they truly mean?

[Mnemosyne]

Ok, the symbol has roots in antiquity. Here's what I heard that the Northern Europeans thought. The bigger dipper goes around the North Star. As it turned, it formed the swastika pattern. This rotation happens four times a year- just like the seasons. To the Norse, they thought that Thor brought the seasons, so he became associated with the swastika.
Most cultures from Asia to Mesopotamia to Native Americans to Europeans used this symbol, and it generally meant luck and prosperity.

[Tranquility]

Interesting... is this what the triskele came from? its a swastika without one of the "wings"

Thank you for that information Mnemosyne.. i really didn't know that, but i KNEW it had some further background

[Morrighana]

It's actually said that Hitler used the symbol because it was Thor's symbol, and he felt it would bring luck and prosperity and the like to his movement. Same goes for the symbols used for the SS, the S rune twice, which he believed would bring them victory.

As for the triskele, to the best of my knowledge, it is not connected to the swastika in it's roots at all...

[FlamedLilly]

In all the books that I've been reading lately, they've all said that it wasn't actually a swastika, but it symbolizes the wheel of life, the swastika actaully points in the opposite direction as the Norse wheel of life, which is Thors symbol.

I just realized that was one big runon, I need to go back to English!

[Mnemosyne]

Ahh, you don't need to go back to English class, FlamedLily. I totally understood your point about the connection of the Wheel of Life to the swastika sign. I like that point. :)

Hey, Tranquility, I just found this site. You can read about the swastika and its ties to various cultures.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_swastika_forum.htm

[Tranquility]

Thanks so much Mnemosyne!

[Tranquility]

Ahh i see, the germans used it as a good luck symbol and also for regeneration, possibly a superstition about not dying... that really helps, there are so many theories and logical things for it, thanks a lot Mnemosyne

[Flar's Freyja]

And here's a thread from the Divination forum with information on the rune, Sowilo, that the Swastika is formed from. It is a double Sowilo and a very positive symbol that as someone else pointed out, Hitler took to use as an evil one, much like the Pentacle has been defiled:

Rune Number 16 - Sowilo (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14754&highlight=swastika)

[Tranquility]

Ohh yeah, you can tell that if you place another turned on side it basicly formes a swastika...

[Tyrvald]

The swastika originally was a representation of four hammers. This was the power of Mjollnir, Thor's Hammer, multiplied by four and aligned with north, south, east and west. This was probably meant to allow the hammer to protect from all four directions. It was related to sowilo, the S-rune of the Elder Futhark. Sowilo is in the shape of a lightning bolt, which is created when Thor bashes the ground (or the clouds) with his hammer. "Thor" means "The Thunderer".

Hitler saw the swastika as a symbol of power, and adopted it to represent the NAZI party. For the same reasons, his group of "supermen" soldiers was called the SS, Sowilo Sowilo, and repressented by two of that rune.

At the end of World War II, it was proven that Thor was not behind hitler, as he committed suicide in his bunker. Thor would have been angery that Hitler soiled the swastika. I doubt it can ever be cleaned of the blood Hitler through apon it. Personally, I have my doubts that Thor allows himself to be called upon by it anymore.

It is very unfortunate that the swastika has been so soiled by Hitler. It has been a symbol of protection and also of the sun for many cultures throughout time. Also, Hitler's use of Germanic mythology has no doubt made things far more difficult for the revival of Asatru (Norse Heathenism).

Let it be known that any true Asatruer would kill Hitler a thousand times, all in the name of Thor.

BTW, the defilement of the swastika is over a billion times greater than that of the pentagram. The pentagram remains just as intact as Witchcraft itself.

I hope I've answered your question as fully as possible.

[mol]

Originally posted by Tyrvald

BTW, the defilement of the swastika is over a billion times greater than that of the pentagram. The pentagram remains just as intact as Witchcraft itself.

That is true, the swastika does have more blood upon it. The pentagram unfortunately still has the taint of 'evil' put upon it during the times when the Church was ridding the world of 'evil'. I know that most people I know would cringe about the same at both symbols. A sad thing...

[Tranquility]

Thanks a lot, that clarified a TON!

[Hamelyn]

Interesting points. I once read in school that the swastika itself wasn't even the symbol Hitler used, but that he put a varient on it... doesn't mesh with much other research, though.

I do know that Hitler /was/ very very superstitious. He even had a small cabal of witches called the Brotherhood of Thul (umlats on the u), from what I've read. I know some people who accredit a large part of that war to Hitler receiving word that a lot of the pagans in England working up defences. There were, of course, lots of OTHER reasons, too... but it's something worth knowing, I guess.

-Hamelyn, Scholar of Obscure WTF's

[Ragnarok1488]

Originally posted by Tyrvald

The swastika originally was a representation of four hammers. This was the power of Mjollnir, Thor's Hammer, multiplied by four and aligned with north, south, east and west. This was probably meant to allow the hammer to protect from all four directions. It was related to sowilo, the S-rune of the Elder Futhark. Sowilo is in the shape of a lightning bolt, which is created when Thor bashes the ground (or the clouds) with his hammer. "Thor" means "The Thunderer".

Hitler saw the swastika as a symbol of power, and adopted it to represent the NAZI party. For the same reasons, his group of "supermen" soldiers was called the SS, Sowilo Sowilo, and repressented by two of that rune.

At the end of World War II, it was proven that Thor was not behind hitler, as he committed suicide in his bunker. Thor would have been angery that Hitler soiled the swastika. I doubt it can ever be cleaned of the blood Hitler through apon it. Personally, I have my doubts that Thor allows himself to be called upon by it anymore.

It is very unfortunate that the swastika has been so soiled by Hitler. It has been a symbol of protection and also of the sun for many cultures throughout time. Also, Hitler's use of Germanic mythology has no doubt made things far more difficult for the revival of Asatru (Norse Heathenism).

Let it be known that any true Asatruer would kill Hitler a thousand times, all in the name of Thor.

BTW, the defilement of the swastika is over a billion times greater than that of the pentagram. The pentagram remains just as intact as Witchcraft itself.

I hope I've answered your question as fully as possible.


Why all the hard feelings towards Hitler? Me asking that question to you may seem odd because its generally excepted that Hitler was a real bad guy, and if you question that then you are a bad person also. I know its not very fashionable to think Hitler was a good guy, but I’m really not out to when a fashion award. Do you remember what started the Second World War? Initially it was just a territorial dispute between Germany and Poland. The Germans wanted back the German territory which had been taken away from Germany and given to Poland at the end of the First World War. But when the Germans, under Hitler, began taking back that territory, in September 1939, Britain and France declared war on Germany, ostensibly to protect the freedom of Poland. The Germans had done nothing against Britain and France and wanted very much to remain at peace with those countries, but the politicians of Britain and France had other considerations. Britain and France, both under strong Jewish pressure, declared war on Germany in September 1939, ostensibly because of Germany's invasion of Poland. They did not declare war on the Soviet Union, which also had invaded Poland. In the United States and in western Europe, where the Jews held a deathgrip on the mass media, a great deal of anti-German propaganda was based on the German grab for Polish territory -- much of which, of course, actually was historically German territory -- and nothing was said of the Soviet occupation and annexation of eastern Poland. The Germans fought against overwhelming odds. National Socialism is centered around Racial spirituality, and Hitler could not have called upon Thor for a better purpose. The jews controlled the mass media then and they still control it now. Of course jews are going to hate Hitler, and it is reflected in their media and reflected in the masses of people who’s opinions are influenced indirectly or directly by the jewish controlled mass media.
Heil Adolf Hitler! Heil the Swastika!

[Hamelyn]

I sense the impending doom of a flame-war. Let us PLEASE not let it come to that.

While I personally do not condone the behavior condoned by the Nazi party- even if many of them were quite ignorant of the full accounts of what was going on- it is also worth pointing out that in a time of war, just like any other time, all sides possess some form of bias. It's one of the unpleasant side-effects that come with having any form of opinion.

On a personal note, I have to add that there are some traits in Hitler that could easily be put to "good" (I don't like using the word) use in any "Great Man," and that more than the Jewish were victims of the Holocaust.

It is also worth mentioning that it has been discovered that Poland took an active part in covering up bits of the Holocaust as well. It- the war and its repricussions- was all resulting from many factors, and I don't really agree with either of you. Neither of you sound very open-minded in the research you've done- but that is my opinion. I don't think it's very wise to say that ALL true member of ANY path would neccessarily kill someone no matter what, and I don't think it's very wise to start throwing around things that you know in your mind will just incite anger in others.

I've had to disregard a couple of threads because of disrespect. I'm sleep deprived, and possibly reading too much into this, but I'd really rather not long in after 24 hours and see pages upon pages upon pages of flames in this thread. It really would be a waste of good oppurtunities.

[Hamelyn]

Although, for a bit of semi off-topic trivia? There was an association with Thor, including the SS nickname "Storm Troopers." George Lucas turns up some interesting research, no?

[Ragnarok1488]

Strange as it sounds, there is little evidence that the holocaust is all that they say it was.

[Mnemosyne]

Moderation Mode

Rule 6: Threads need to Stay on Topic

Thanks

[AmbivalentMirage]

Originally posted by Ragnarok1488

Why all the hard feelings towards Hitler? Me asking that question to you may seem odd because its generally excepted that Hitler was a real bad guy, and if you question that then you are a bad person also. I know its not very fashionable to think Hitler was a good guy, but I’m really not out to when a fashion award. Do you remember what started the Second World War? Initially it was just a territorial dispute between Germany and Poland. The Germans wanted back the German territory which had been taken away from Germany and given to Poland at the end of the First World War. But when the Germans, under Hitler, began taking back that territory, in September 1939, Britain and France declared war on Germany, ostensibly to protect the freedom of Poland. The Germans had done nothing against Britain and France and wanted very much to remain at peace with those countries, but the politicians of Britain and France had other considerations. Britain and France, both under strong Jewish pressure, declared war on Germany in September 1939, ostensibly because of Germany's invasion of Poland. They did not declare war on the Soviet Union, which also had invaded Poland. In the United States and in western Europe, where the Jews held a deathgrip on the mass media, a great deal of anti-German propaganda was based on the German grab for Polish territory -- much of which, of course, actually was historically German territory -- and nothing was said of the Soviet occupation and annexation of eastern Poland. The Germans fought against overwhelming odds. National Socialism is centered around Racial spirituality, and Hitler could not have called upon Thor for a better purpose. The jews controlled the mass media then and they still control it now. Of course jews are going to hate Hitler, and it is reflected in their media and reflected in the masses of people who’s opinions are influenced indirectly or directly by the jewish controlled mass media.
Heil Adolf Hitler! Heil the Swastika!

:eyebrow: Im'ma be a good jewitch and hush...

[Tyrvald]

Hitler is perhaps the biggest mass murderer to have ever existed on this planet. I think you can all guess how I feel about Ragnarok1488 for being a neo-nazi. No need for me to disrupt the peace by putting my feelings into words.

As an Asatruer, I'm very troubled by neo-nazi's who continue to use Norse mythology in they're disturbing theology.

May Hitler's spirit be banished from Midgard forever!

[Mnemosyne]

Originally posted by Mnemosyne

Moderation Mode

Rule 6: Threads need to Stay on Topic

Thanks

[AstralEyes]

Two things.
1: Hitler was a genius, but we all know aboout that thin line. I'm pretty sure he had onle foot on each side. (N.B.:Being a Romani I want everyone to know that I hate what Hitler did, but you must respect the fact that the man took an impoverished country and created a world power. Also, originally he thought he was just taking back the land lost previously.)

2: He used the swastika because it was a hyebrew symbol of good fortune and prosperity, and no one goes into battle thinking that the divine has sided with the enemy.

I probably just made myself a very unpopular person around here but hey, it's what I think.

P.S.: Haven't seen MW in over a year, love the new look.

[Phoenix Blue]

Unpopular? **Smiles and shrugs** Hardly.

[Djiril]

Originally posted by AstralEyes
2: He used the swastika because it was a hyebrew symbol of good fortune and prosperity, and no one goes into battle thinking that the divine has sided with the enemy.

Where did you get that piece of information?

[Morrighana]

Doesn't ANYONE notice Mnemosyne's posts?

I will say this, with appologies to Mnemosyne, because I think it needs to be said before this thread gets deleted. People should be careful in throwing names around, as labeling individuals without truly knowing who they are and what they truly believe. Ragnarok1488 has presented an alternative point of view. He/she did not say or even hint toward the fact that they use norse mythology in their personal theology, let alone in a disturbing manner. I do believe that the Heil comments detracted greatly from his/her argument, and seemed only there for inflammatory purposes, but still I maintain that open-mindedness and a willingess to listed are key in any debate, and that while a counter-argument is usually neccessary, flaming and namecalling is just immature and downright rude.

It seems several individuals here need to take a breath, and realize that not only will we likely never know the full, honest truth about the Holocaust and surrounding events, but also that we are all entitled to our opinions, and to sharing them without fearing retribution.

Just my $0.02

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Morrighana
It seems several individuals here need to take a breath, and realize that not only will we likely never know the full, honest truth about the Holocaust and surrounding events, but also that we are all entitled to our opinions, and to sharing them without fearing retribution.
We know enough to know it happened. We know enough to know how many people it killed, how they died, and how they were treated while they were still alive.

Does it need to be spelled out?

[Morrighana]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

We know enough to know it happened. We know enough to know how many people it killed, how they died, and how they were treated while they were still alive.

Does it need to be spelled out?


Yes, we know it happened. I'm not debating that. We know the who, the what, the when, the where, but we know only fragments of the why.

None of that changes the fact that several people here need to calm down and realize that just because people have differing opinions does not mean one should hate them.

Feel free to PM me on anything I've said here, as I'm not going to post anymore in this thread as it's waaaay too off topic.

[Rick]

Originally posted by Tranquility

This is a short and plain question, why was Thor's symbol the swastika?
"His symbol was the device known as the swastika. "
Could this have been a triskele mistaken for a modern day swastika? i don't understand why he would have a swastika, what is the actual meaning of them.. of course they are associated with hitler, but what do they truly mean?
The symbol we have come to call the swastika is ancient, indeed. It has been found in some of the earliest known cave & rock paintings, & found amongst the paintings of most indigenous peoples. The swastika is a variation of a Sunwheel... the perpendicular "legs" represent the Wheel in motion. As it has the shape of two crossed Sowulo (Sowulo represents the sun) Runes, I'm sure some vitki in old times made the further solar associations. And yes, as Thor ushers in the seasons, the turning of the Sunwheel is associated with him.

[Mnemosyne]

Thanks so much for that info and getting this thread to back on topic, Rick. :)

[KaliGiri5]

The swastika is Indian...
it is a good luck symbol..
the Celtic people used the swastika in their art..
the Celtic being Indo-European people
the same blood mix as the Arabs(Aryans)

Hitler who wasn't an Aryan called himself that..
he used the Indian symbol as his symbol..
although he hated the Jews..
he boasted that he came from the same bloodline as Jesus and Mary Magdalene..
His own Grandmother's last name was Schicklgruber<-Jewish
his father carried that named and had it changed to Hitler in 1876
so just for me Hitler contradicted big time...
he invaded his own homeland lol


Thor is said to be the Indian god Indra(aryan)
The swastika was a weapon used by Indra.
he also carried a Vajra which is a thunder bolt
when he raises it in the air..his arm looks like tha handle
and the vajra looks like the top of a hammer.

Although Thor is a Norse god..
he's Indian influence and wasn't known pre Indian contact.

[Rick]

Originally posted by KaliGiri5
The swastika is Indian... it is a good luck symbol.. the Celtic people used the swastika in their art.. the Celtic being Indo-European people the same blood mix as the Arabs(Aryans)
The swastika has been found in art dating from possibly 30,000 years ago, & was used in North America between 12,000 to 15,000 years ago... it far predates both the cultures of the Indians & the Celts, & can't rightfully be claimed as 'belonging to', or being 'invented by', any particular peoples.

Hitler who wasn't an Aryan called himself that.. he used the Indian symbol as his symbol.. although he hated the Jews.. he boasted that he came from the same bloodline as Jesus and Mary Magdalene.. His own Grandmother's last name was Schicklgruber<-Jewish his father carried that named and had it changed to Hitler in 1876 so just for me Hitler contradicted big time... he invaded his own homeland lol
In Hitler's own words, regarding Germans who were trying to revive worship of the Old Gods, from chapter 12 of Mein Kampf: "The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear & shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, & wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present struggle with nothing but spiritual weapons, & run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack."

Thor is said to be the Indian god Indra(aryan) The swastika was a weapon used by Indra. he also carried a Vajra which is a thunder bolt when he raises it in the air.. his arm looks like tha handle and the vajra looks like the top of a hammer. Although Thor is a Norse god.. he's Indian influence and wasn't known pre Indian contact.
Indra may have some of the same characteristics as Asa Thor, but Indra isn't Thor. I doubt Indra ever even saw a Frost Giant... ;)

[KaliGiri5]

Originally posted by Rick

The swastika has been found in art dating from possibly 30,000 years ago, & was used in North America between 12,000 to 15,000 years ago... it far predates both the cultures of the Indians & the Celts, & can't rightfully be claimed as 'belonging to', or being 'invented by', any particular peoples.



30,000 years ago?
white people didn't use the swastika no 30,000 years ago.
it was used by the Hindus..Buddhist..Jains..
there is no European god as old as the Asian gods...
how the white people came in contact with it was by the Celtics & gypsies...themselves being of Indian blood..

yes it was used in America..
BUT by Native Americans...they are Asians...not white
white people only been here for about 600 years...
black people..even less..

the swastika is even a Chinese character for "all"
the Germans didn't use the swastika until 1930s...
the Christian cross is from the swastika...that being a Middle Eastern religion...not European.
all the European gods named now are new..

You can go to Mexico and see the people of the small towns
dance around the May pole...not because they follow Europeans..
because they always did that....pre Spanish contact.

**Correction..I said white people was in America for 600 years..
it was 500 years ago before they made it to the Caribbean..
and shortly after they made it to Florida..

[Theres]

where did Rick claim that white people were using the swastika 30,000 years ago? i certainly don't see that.

and i dispute the claim that the Christian cross comes from the swastika as well.
crucifixion was a common punishnemt in ancient Rome, although rarely with nails. Christ's punishment as a rabble rouser was to be crucified, and this is surely the origin of the cross as a symbol of the Christian church.

[Rick]

The swastika has been used as a magical symbol by humanoids on the European continent since there have been humanoids on the European continent (& they probably weren't white, as if it mattered). BTW, they originally came 'out of Africa' by way of the Middle East... the push back westward from the Indos (actually the peoples from the steppes, cousins of the peoples from India, I'm sure, but not Indians) didn't come until much more recent times. Whatever peoples that first came onto the European continent, I'm sure they brought their gods/godesses with them, & probably invented some more along the way. It's human nature to 'enhance' the story.

Kaligiri5, I have absolutely no idea where you're gettin' this stuff, but you might want to read some history written by actual academics... I'd recommend Marija Gimbutas (who was a professor of archaeology at UCLA prior to her death), or maybe even Dr. Isaac Asimov (yes, he of sci-fi fame. He actually wrote far more academic books, on a wide range of subjects, than he did fiction). Both of these authors are probably available at your local public library

[mol]

What is up with the white this...white that? I thought this was a discussion of Thor and correspondences with the Swastika.

[British Knight]

Originally posted by Morrighana

It's actually said that Hitler used the symbol because it was Thor's symbol, and he felt it would bring luck and prosperity and the like to his movement. Same goes for the symbols used for the SS, the S rune twice, which he believed would bring them victory.

As for the triskele, to the best of my knowledge, it is not connected to the swastika in it's roots at all... Hitler didnt use the swastika because of Thor, it was a sysmbol that his research into ancient Aryan India traditions that he first saw the symbol and later adopted it.

[Morrighana]

Originally posted by British Knight

Hitler didnt use the swastika because of Thor, it was a sysmbol that his research into ancient Aryan India traditions that he first saw the symbol and later adopted it.

*shrugs* I've heard it said that it was because of Thor, specifically. But I, and the people I've heard say it, don't really know what Hitler was thinking at the time, so you may well be correct in that Thor's association with the symbol never even crossed his mind.

[AmbivalentMirage]

I still agree with the little girl from The Sound Of Music... the swastika looks like a mean spider. ;) :lol:

I think it's vastly unimportant WHY Hitler used it. The man was brilliant, but apparently rather socially inept and boarderline. I think it's pretty cool that the symbol has a history pre-dating any kind of abuse. =)

[mol]

Originally posted by Morrighana

*shrugs* I've heard it said that it was because of Thor, specifically. But I, and the people I've heard say it, don't really know what Hitler was thinking at the time, so you may well be correct in that Thor's association with the symbol never even crossed his mind.

Heh. Thats right. None of us knows what he was thinking. In fact, he may very well have been using the swastika for the same reason countless metal bands use the Pentagram. For shock value.

[Ravens_Tears]

You may all find these links of interest in regards to this... http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/swas.html
http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa120699a.htm

** edited to add a second link..**

[cydira]

Now I know that people probably have trounced viciously on the individual who spoke in favor of Hitler. I got to that post and I felt that I had to respond. I'm not going to be vulger or start a flame war. I am, however, going to point out some very important historical facts about Hitler.

Number one: Adolf Hitler was of unknown lineage. His maternal background is clearly of Germanic descent. Paternally, however, it is unclear what his heritage is. There is *strong* evidence of a potential Jewish lineage in the combination of his apperiance and the environment where he spent his early childhood, which was in the company of people that were of mixed descent.

Number two: Adolf Hitler had a poorly developed sense of his identity. This was a point he struggled with through out much of his life prior to WWI. In many respect, he truly was the tormented artist. (Before Hitler's military career, he showed signifigant prospect as being a painter. After being drafted, he abandoned his artistry.)

Number three: Adolf Hitler suffered a signifigant amount of persecution when he was younger. Especially for being an artist and a presumed homosexual. While the latter can not be proven, the heavily bigoted culture of pre-WWI Germany was just as harsh on suspected homosexuals as they were on true homosexuals.

Number four: Hitler's poor sense of identity and the psychological angst that he experienced lead to a nervous collapse during WWI. At which time, he was briefly institutionalized. Following his release to return to the front, Adolf experienced a precognitive dream of a shell hitting the bunker he was in. He left the bunker, being jeered at by his breathren in arms, presumeably, and witnessed it being destroyed. The resulting head-trauma had him removed from active military duty and possibly contributed to his growing psychological problems.

While I can continue with the history of this man, I won't. Adolf Hitler was mentally unstable for a large percentage of his life. His rise to power and the development of the NAZI party were due to the fact that the government of post WWI Germany was collapsing under the weight of hyper inflation and oppressive political pressure from the neighboring countries. Hitler was inspired by Napolean's drive to unite Europe and the second world war was a result of this and his desire to rebuild what was the Austrian Empire.

His goals may have been lofty, possibly even noble. His methods, however, were not. The geoncide of the Jews and his excessive persecution of people that did not fit his "Aryan" modle were a result of his insecurities and the manipulation of individuals like Joseph Gobbles. Hitler was in some respects a pawn, it's recorded that he often wept to Eva Brown of the situation and desired to change it but felt powerless to do so.

The Third Reich is a blight on the history of the people of Teutonic descent. I am deeply saddened to hear that there still are people who think that is what it means to be of Germanic or Teutonic descent. My ancestors fled Germany before WWII because of the oppressive actions taken against them, and they were of Germanic stock as old as the Black Forest. I am ashamed of what happened during WWII for the same reasons that I am ashamed of what happened during the westward expansion of the United States. Geoncide is a horrible crime against life. There is no justification for it.

The swastika is a symbol that has been grossly abused. In the clock-wise orientation it represents good luck. In the counter clock-wise orientation it represents banishment of evil. Some say even protection from evil. I believe that Donar (the Germanic version of Thor) answered the call that was made by Hitler by dropping his hammer on them. He's a god of justice, even if it isn't the prettiest form.

Our ancestor's deeds are not our own, this is true. But we bear the weight of their effects and continue the responcibility as is our heritage. I, for one, wish to see an end to things such as genocide and that people of mentall illness get what help they need. The last thing this world needs is another situation like that prior to WWI.

Guten tag.

[cydira]

Now that I've calmed down and read the entire thread, I apologize for going so far off topic.

I retract my earlier statement, though I will leave it for any one who'd like the biographical information about Hitler.

Most of it was from an annotated version of Mein Kampf.

[Theres]

ahhh, poor little Adolph.
just another victim of a dysfunctional family.

"I never got no good parental guidence" - Sailor Ripley (Nicholas Cage), Wild at Heart.

[Xander67]

I welcome this thread :)

I have seen the swatika in Ancient Egyptian paintings too.. but with a more curved design
i will have to do some more digging..

:)

[Alliesky]

I have read that the swastika is a variation of the Celtic Cross. I was used for years and years before Hitler. Too bad someone like that has to change the perceived meaning of a spiritual symbol like that.

[mol]

Originally posted by cydira

I retract my earlier statement, though I will leave it for any one who'd like the biographical information about Hitler.


No need to retract, its a good post. Informative. :)

[jcldragon]

All over the world the Swastica has been used as a Good Luck or Peace symbol from the most ancient of times. Note that everybody had it turning clockwise, except the Buddhists, who would use two Swasticas, one going clockwise, & the other going counter-clockwise. Consider that the symbol has four wings to it. This would indicate to me that it represents the four planes of existance, and clockwise would indicate progress & evolution.

Hitler was a massively disturbed individual to say the least. He had but one testicle, was abused by his father, etc etc... In addition to the 6 million+ Jews who were exterminated in the Concentration Camps, (myself, one of them in my incarnation at that time, and I do recall choking to death from the gas, as adults fell on me & crushed me to the floor of the truck), there were also some 7 million+ other people (mostly Poles, but also Gypsies, Socialists, and anybody who spoke out against the Nazis) who were also exterminated in the Concentration Camps, bringing the total up to around 14 million. Stalin managed to exterminate over 25 million in his slave labor camps in Siberia.

Over the years I've heard reports that Hitler was into Black Magic, and that his intent was to wreak havoc & destruction all over the world. Thus he used the Swastica going counter-clockwise to indicate Dark Power trying to turn the world backwards...

[Rahul]

Considering how so many people who confuse Swastika for all kinds of bogus things, without ever having an actual awareness of its real and 'sense-ful' representation in some context in some other culture, in some other realm, possibly, it deserves to be spoken of in a more rightful vein.

Swastika is from Bharat. Its concept, when you use the very word to represent it, is entirely different from what it might have meant in another culture or tradition. I don't mind using the term Aryan to imply pride in my past culture or even my family and race.

Humanity can do itself a world of good by forgetting to hate out of historical prejudices. But it doesn't, because men are foolish enough to remember all the prejudices which destroy the likelihood of their natural growth.

Same is the case with Swastika. If used by the Nazis and still carrying the name of Swastika, it is no more than Nihilism, as also happens to be the case with some other sick perversions where Christians use it and still refer to it as Swastika.

I think it is a symbol of the Sun, the eternal life, changing seasons and rebirth of it, again. RV 10:85

To me, it represents the force and vigour which we have in our life senses. It never ends.
Karta Na Swastimata!

And we know that it is good and will mean good in the course of all lives, through out. The "good fortune" notion is however misplaced. It is a later development in the "Hindu religion". And I am not a 'Hindu'.

[Rahul]

If Norsemen wish to speak of their Sun-Wheel Cross, than they might actually refer to it as the Hakken Cross instead. Its certainly not Swastika. The basic meaning is different, however similar the concept migh be.

[Tyrvald]

The Norse word for the swastika, as a symbol of Thor, is "fylfot". Such Norse symbols are known as glyph runes.

As far as the swastika (fylfot) goes with Asatru and Thor, there is luckily an alternative form that doesn't have that NAZI thing attached to it. It can be drawn in a rounded fashion, like a four armed swirl. I honestly feel that this form is more powerful to those who worship Thor, as it has not been tarnished.

The more square form that hitler used has appeared in stone carvings so much, simply because it's easier to carve that way.

BTW, it also doesn't matter which direction it flows in, as far as the ancient Norse were concerned.

I'd like to mention that the peace symbol also comes from a Norse symbol, a rune which appeared in the Younger Futhark 'alphabet'. It represented the world tree, Yggdrassil and was just like the peace symbol, but without the circle around it.

[Rahul]

There is a three-naved wheel which Dirghatama talks of in the Rig Ved. Its representation could look quite similar to the World Ash Tree.

And I read somewhere that the Runic Alphabet was borrowed by the Germanics from a semitic source, just the way Graeco-ionian was, from the Phoenicians.

Is there weight in it? That makes the jews somewhat ancestors to the Norse faith, is it possible? It certainly sounds interesting, but many people deny this, that the origin of the European folk-culture ought to be seen as being closer to the middle eastern/semitic, rather than Bharat-Vedic Aryas.

[Tyrvald]

Runes are largely native to Germanic regions, having evolved from Bronze Age pictographs. Such pictographs included the 'swastika'.

However, when they began to gain phonetic value, the assigning of sounds was influenced by the shapes of Mediterranean cultures. They came into contact with these cultures in the second century B.C.E.

I haven't studied the relationships between ancient Germanic tribes and the ancient Jews. I'm not even sure if they came into much contact.

I'm taking a look at the modern Hebrew alphabet and linear Hebrew, and I don't see any correlation between them and any runic system.

I'm going to have to say that the Semites probably had little if any influence on the development of runes.

It's too bad though. It would be nice to have something to shove in the face of neo-nazis.

BTW, in response to your world tree reference, the world tree, Yggdrassil, was more commonly symbolized by a Yew tree, not an Ash. This is because Yew's are evergreens, which represent life.



Originally posted by Rahul


And I read somewhere that the Runic Alphabet was borrowed by the Germanics from a semitic source, just the way Graeco-ionian was, from the Phoenicians. Is there weight in it?

[Rahul]

Okay.
There are certain linguistic similarities between North Indian Vedic Culture-Origin Aryan languages and Many IE European languages.

The very word Veda means knowledge in the Vedic language. It cognates with 'Veta' in Svenska.

In my opinion, the likelihood of a cultural exchange in the period dating 3000 years before the era of our reckoning, the space where this exchange might have taken place is, I believe, anywhere between Ukraine and North Western India, the Dardic and Potwahr regions(linguistic) in the Himalayas.

The mythology of Celts and Norseman, they say, has a lot in common with our Vedic traditions. A common origin, though difficult to prove, is something which is also contended but mostly rejected because of racialist interest in this Aryan issue.

Today Hindutva nationalism in India is another front, akin to the revisionists in the west.

What matters to me is the life-essence which we have or at least find in the Vedas or the Eddas.

[Rick]

...this site is rather exhaustive... http://www.northvegr.org/lore/swastika/index.html

As to history of runes, try here... http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/j.h.looijenga/

[Rahul]

Originally posted by AmbivalentMirage

I still agree with the little girl from The Sound Of Music... the swastika looks like a mean spider. ;) :lol:

I think it's vastly unimportant WHY Hitler used it. The man was brilliant, but apparently rather socially inept and boarderline. I think it's pretty cool that the symbol has a history pre-dating any kind of abuse. =)

Boarderline?

'He was', you say, we assume you are, instead.

The worst genocide which Indo-Iranians(Actual Aryans) suffered at the hands of the semitic fanatics and turkic-mongols, that is terribly underrated or even ignored in world history as the western man willed it.

Wilhelm Halbfass has justifiably termed it an invasion and desecration by the judeo-christian world, which we know as the west, it forced Arya-Jana to abandon their culture and with its colonialism imposed its own hated ideologies upon us.

There is absolutely no area where we were deficient.
My friend often speaks this refrain, attributed to a German:
"Aryan India gave the world a metaphysic which has never since been equalled; Aryan Persia constructed for us the religious Myth from which we still draw sustenance."

It basically boils down to the simple logic of military successes. Our folks were ignorant of the threat which the Arabs and Jews presented. Benes invaded a long time back, that story is presented as a migration instead. You don't speak of their excesses when they connived with the Portugese in Goa and helped in the Genocide of several of the natives there. Same goes for Kochi and their sweet terms with Vasco-da Gama-a pirate, a thug.

Their(the jewish) falsification of history and logic is a reason for some westerner posting on this board talking about a dream and speaking of Vishnu in evil terms, holding Rama hostage, and then has the notion of probably being an incarnate of Rama in a previous life.

Well, it is natural that a jew will hate an Aryan symbol. You hate Aryan lore since you have no such thing at all. YOu hate Swastika and can vilify it thus.

Hitler used a Hakken Creuss, actually.

[mol]

Originally posted by Rahul
Their(the jewish) falsification of history and logic is a reason for some westerner posting on this board talking about a dream and speaking of Vishnu in evil terms, holding Rama hostage, and then has the notion of probably being an incarnate of Rama in a previous life.


Well, why not? You spoke of Islam in evil terms. Maybe you should stop showing a double standard in every one of your posts.

[I Luciferi]

Hitler used a Hakken Creuss, actually.

Why is it that every time Nazi pops into my head, there you are.

[Rahul]

A suggestion, an indirect reference, it was.

Whereas Islam had been termed downright, and opinion. If the original poster makes it clear and directly creates Vishnu the evil which it only terms by implication of its portrayal, isn't that just? Isn't that going to let us all off for once? Isn't that going to kill the doubt?

I wish to know, as to a metaphysical experience, only dreamt and not even imagined, can be equated with a physical one, which Islam happened to be. This, besides the main point.

And I am not a Nazi, Lucifuge. Its not something which my culture alludes to.

[Morrighana]

Boarderline?

'He was', you say, we assume you are, instead.



:geez: Good greif.



Their(the jewish) falsification of history and logic is a reason for some westerner posting on this board talking about a dream and speaking of Vishnu in evil terms, holding Rama hostage, and then has the notion of probably being an incarnate of Rama in a previous life.


So, in your opinions, speaking of one's dreams should be banned, and the idea of refraining from blatantly disrespecing another's culture (an archaic rule, as you called the concept of RESPECT in another thread) should never cross one's mind?

The poster in the thread you are referring to never ONCE claimed that Vishnu WAS evil, simply that he/she had dreamt so. I once dreamt that my cat ruled the world. Does that mean I believe he does? Not in the least! But it does imply that I have a connection to cats.



Well, it is natural that a jew will hate an Aryan symbol. You hate Aryan lore since you have no such thing at all. YOu hate Swastika and can vilify it thus.


This gross generalization disgusts me, plain and simple. You exhibit this great hatred towards anything non-Vedic/Aryan, and refuse to acknowledge a simple fact: nobody here is 'out to get' eastern cultures, nobody hates them, nobody is 'jealous' of them, and quite a few people happen to BELONG to them.

Take your hate somewhere else, please.

***edited for silly errors***

[Rahul]

:geez:



So, in your opinions, speaking of one's dreams should be banned, and the idea of refraining from blatantly disrespecing another's culture (an archaic rule, as you called the concept of RESPECT in another thread) should never cross one's mind?

The poster in the thread you are referring to never ONCE claimed that Vishnu WAS evil, simply that he/she had dreamt so. I once dreamt that my cat ruled the world. Does that mean I believe he does? Not in the least! But it does imply that I have a connection to cats.



This gross generalization disgusts me, plain and simple. You exhibit this great hatred towards anything non-Vedic/Aryan, and refust to acknowledge a simple fact: nobody here is 'out to get' eastern cultures, nobody hates them, nobody is 'jealous' of them, and quite a few people happen to BELONG to them.

Take your hate somewhere else, please. It does not belong here.:nuhuh:

The hatred you see, actual and that which I have spoken is the very reverse. And there is no grudge or prejudice, mere factual knowledge, and not illusions as you display.

I am looking for those who know about the Vedic. Its a culture and blood thing, you cannot become one unless you belong to the soil of Aryaverta, in blood and thought.

If someone has a tradition or a lore different than mine(Vedic), say for instance Asatro or Forn Sedhr, I actually fully respect it. And I will be keen to learn from it too. And I still say, I am NO Nazi.

Its not about difference, its about attitudes

If you cared to notice the next post, you'll have enough knowledge and understanding of what was implied. And who was asking for a banning, some disgruntled zombie?

Contrary to what you think, my culture does not revel in mindless ramblings which have been displayed by many others on this board. Philosophy is not denial, its the acceptance of truth, in one's own perspective. I wonder if you have ever heard of Purva-Mimamsa and Uttara-Mimasa and how even the greatest rebuttal to a generally accepted doctrine is allowed if it is reasoned enough. That is a form of Vedic Dialectic of which Buddhism was a result and later Sankara's vedanta. The problem in this mess here is that spirit of debate is twisted here, controlled by rules, resulting in occassional rebellious utterings.

There is a difference between difference and incoherent non-sense. Mine could be incoherent non-sense to others. And why just can't we accept the basic fact and agree to the idea of difference and accept it and not try be the 'other'?

[mol]

Contrary to what you think, my culture does not revel in mindless ramblings which have been displayed by many others on this board. Philosophy is not denial, its the acceptance of truth, in one's own perspective. I wonder if you have ever heard of Purva-Mimamsa and Uttara-Mimasa and how even the greatest rebuttal to a generally accepted doctrine is allowed if it is reasoned enough. That is a form of Vedic Dialectic of which Buddhism was a result and later Sankara's vedanta. The problem in this mess here is that spirit of debate is twisted here, controlled by rules, resulting in occassional rebellious utterings.


Im sorry that you feel that 'Respect' is a rule that detracts from the spirit of debate. It seems that no one else is having this problem, but you.

[mol]

SITE GOD MODE

For the record, I think we need to calm down and get back to discussing the thread without insulting each other directy or indirectly.

[Rahul]

I wish to clear one doubt on your part, Mol.

I don't think it is technically disrespect on my part. It is an excercise expressing views altogether to the contrary, from the line of discussion. Possibly some promise is there in it.

[mol]

I wish to clear one doubt on your part, Mol.

I don't think it is technically disrespect on my part. It is an excercise expressing views altogether to the contrary, from the line of discussion. Possibly some promise is there in it.

Well, I have read several of your posts as of late and in each one you find someone to insult some group of people or a single person. This is not respect. Not as I know it anyway. You can debate and get your points acrossed without doing it in an insulting manner.

[Rahul]

I'll try to be good and noble then.

[Taylorfate]

Sorry to interrupst but heres a good example of the mis-understanding of the swastika symol:

A Coca-Cola promotion in Hong Kong featuring a robot adorned with 'swastikas' has been condemned.

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/52505.jpg

Rabbi Yakkov Kermaier, of Ohel Leah Synagogue, says it is probably an honest mistake, but he's called toy sets featuring the "Robocon" characters unacceptable.

One character, the robot-like "Robowaru," has two swastikas on its chest and can be bought in the UK for around £2.60 with any purchase of six bottles of Coke.

The figurines stand on small plastic pedestals with Coca-Cola logos on them.

"It's not simply a politically incorrect symbol," Rabbi Kermaier said. "It's an emblem that represents the wholesale slaughter of six million Jews."

Rabbi Kermaier acknowledged the Nazi swastika can easily be confused with Buddhist swastikas that are common in Asia. The two symbols are close to being reverse images of one another, with the arms pointing in opposite directions.

Coca-Cola says the figurines were made according to the original Robowaru design, but a spokeswoman declined any other immediate comment.

Animation International, which sells rights for Robocon and worked with Coca-Cola on the toys, says the symbols were designed by the creator and "did not have anything to do with any organisation or religion."

© Associated Press

Article from www.ananova.com

[Ice violets]

Most educated, intelligent people understand the swastica isn't a symbol of evil, and is a cross cultural symbol found all over the world. Most people in general don't know this. Those trendies and weirdos in government and authority will only have the swastica kept reminded as a Nazi flag.

It is true that the Aryan races aren't just the Nazified blond- blue- eyed types from Hitlers myth, but are actually from most European lands, Asia and India.

[Rahul]

Most educated, intelligent people understand the swastica isn't a symbol of evil, and is a cross cultural symbol found all over the world. Most people in general don't know this. Those trendies and weirdos in government and authority will only have the swastica kept reminded as a Nazi flag.

It is true that the Aryan races aren't just the Nazified blond- blue- eyed types from Hitlers myth, but are actually from most European lands, Asia and India.

We could not expect anything less than "hatred symbolised by the Swastika" from them and a claim that they were Aryans, and at the top of it, offering a highly prejudiced and biased historicity to support their claims.

And since when did they become Aryas?

Do you know that the Vedic Aryas actually considered their own racial kindred as Dasas and thus un-Aryan? Dasa folk were Iranians, but belonging to the same stock as the Aryas(Bharata) did. The only Aryan or akin to the Aryans today are Tadjiks, some Iranians, and some people in the North western part of the South Asian subcontinent.

[Phoenix Blue]

:) Actually, I don't think Hitler ever offered any historical documents to prove that Germans were descended from the Aryans. Though if there is any historical basis to that claim, I'd like to see it.

[Rahul]

:) Actually, I don't think Hitler ever offered any historical documents to prove that Germans were descended from the Aryans. Though if there is any historical basis to that claim, I'd like to see it.

He didn't?
What was the purpose of all those missions and expeditions into Tibet and Badakshan?

[lovepoet]

I think that this discussion is wandering into the territory of emotionally-based responses.

Mysticwicks (as I understand it) is a board for *Magickal* issues, discussions and opinions.

Magick and symbolism have always existed simultaneously in two world-frames, the exoteric and the esoteric.

The issue is twofold:

1) Is the swastika still a useful emblem? (exoteric)

2) Is the swastika still a useful magickal symbol? (esoteric)


I think the answer to #1 is that no, it's not very useful except for negative purposes, in humanity's group consciousness it is now completely associated with one group, one era, one purpose.

and the answer to #2 is yes, it's potency in magick is unchanged, as any simple magickal experimentation should demonstrate.

The question of who is and is not of a particular racial descent is quite irrelevant.

Throwing my 2c into the ring.

[shiloki]

We could not expect anything less than "hatred symbolised by the Swastika" from them and a claim that they were Aryans, and at the top of it, offering a highly prejudiced and biased historicity to support their claims.

And since when did they become Aryas?

Do you know that the Vedic Aryas actually considered their own racial kindred as Dasas and thus un-Aryan? Dasa folk were Iranians, but belonging to the same stock as the Aryas(Bharata) did. The only Aryan or akin to the Aryans today are Tadjiks, some Iranians, and some people in the North western part of the South Asian subcontinent.

i think it would be very interesting for some members of the kkk and aryan nation to have the information in that last paragraph...wouldn't that just set their world on fire????

[Rahul]

i think it would be very interesting for some members of the kkk and aryan nation to have the information in that last paragraph...wouldn't that just set their world on fire????

There is a likelihood of some Scythian tribes being of the same stock of their neighbouring Aryas and having the same traditions and manners as the Vedic people. This we get from a chinese historian in a later era dynasty, reminiscing. The Scythians had one of their tribes know as Germanii, another as Massagethes(Great Goths, as they were called in Farsi by the Iranians) and another as Alani which were related to the ancestors of the Vikings, and who later invaded and populated Europe as well. Then there were Sarmatians and Kimmerians(Ancestors of Kelts).

Many of these were Indo-Europeans. And some others might very well have been allusions to jewish tribes, the trace of which is reckoned upto Afghanistan in certain pockets, like Khowar and Kafiristan. But these were two distinct people with different characteristics.

KKK & Aryan Nation may be recent ideologies, dwelling faulty pride.

[Rahul]

I think that this discussion is wandering into the territory of emotionally-based responses.

Mysticwicks (as I understand it) is a board for *Magickal* issues, discussions and opinions.

Magick and symbolism have always existed simultaneously in two world-frames, the exoteric and the esoteric.

The issue is twofold:

1) Is the swastika still a useful emblem? (exoteric)

2) Is the swastika still a useful magickal symbol? (esoteric)


I think the answer to #1 is that no, it's not very useful except for negative purposes, in humanity's group consciousness it is now completely associated with one group, one era, one purpose.

and the answer to #2 is yes, it's potency in magick is unchanged, as any simple magickal experimentation should demonstrate.

The question of who is and is not of a particular racial descent is quite irrelevant.

Throwing my 2c into the ring.

Firstly, its not an argument reasoned for sentiments.
Secondly your understanding of the past, your allusion to magickal utility of of ancients is simplistic and mechanical(devoid of living sensuality). It is apparently an incoherent view towards the past, of that era when man, everywhere on the planet looked within for fulfilment. His world-idea and truth came from within. Life life-experience was his education and not some university scholar-led indoctrination over some values which enabled him to see and set apart the good from the evil. MUCH Can be argued for a life view which the past had, uncorrupted by the modern technological developments and advancements of humans which have created a faulty sense of belief that man is above the nature and he denies his very animalism, which might actually be his actual life-vigour's most pure form.

Reverting to your first issue:
I do not see any reason why a hallowed symbol be seen as evil, its not the human consciousness, its the feeble optical illusion rooted in prejudices of people which desecrates and derives an evil meaning, altogether different from the original, the more serene, harmonious, natural and coherently truthful meaning-of the Fylfot. It was a symbol of man's representation of the most natural of all phenomena in his existence, which reminded him, or at least gave him hope, and still gives hope to millions, of a life everlasting. Rebirth of man. It gave him a feeling, a reminder that he could be going back to the place where he has come from, to come back again.
If we over-stress that this great noble & natural sun-wheel is no longer sacred because it has been abused by some, it will be a disrespect in the most shallow spirit of nature which is greater than man, and is beyond any recent inventions of good and evil. Scandinavians are not an evil people and they should continue to feel proud in this hallowed symbol. I feel for this symbol for I know that such a, similar, sun wheel also existed in the Vedic tradition. And that hymn from the Rig Veda still reverberates with all the right meaning and gives sense to my life.
Any denial or criticism of this symbol will be a display of intolerance and disrespect. Man is not great, its nature which makes him.
And in this, the Swastika or the Fylfot is truly the highest representation of life and its vigour. For those who wish to whine on and on, I request them to have some bit of sense, to have a life which is fulfilled.

AND this wheel is NOT a supernatural symbol, in my humble opinion.

[Ravensecho]

Ok I don't know if this is like beating a dead horse but here goes....Hitler had an spiritual advisor...I believe the chaps name was Heinrich Himmler. Himmler convinced hitler that the germanic runes were the first...therefore divine and one true launguage. He believed a study of this would only support his ideas about the origans of Germanic culture.
The Sowelu(sig/Sieg) rune was chosen to represent victory for the Germans.
Himmler had an inner order called the "Knights of the Black Order" who practised casting and meditating with the rune stones.
Runes accualy became so popular during this time that they are marked on many earlier tombstones.
The Nazis used the Runes as badges of rank also.
This is a very sad thing as to that it led to the pregious against runestones for many years after that.

[Hazel witchazel]

This is a short and plain question, why was Thor's symbol the swastika?
"His symbol was the device known as the swastika. "
Could this have been a triskele mistaken for a modern day swastika? i don't understand why he would have a swastika, what is the actual meaning of them.. of course they are associated with hitler, but what do they truly mean?


Trisklion was a world recognised solar symbol of well being , health , energy and strength. Then hitler came along and reversed it and hence the swastika, an abuse of the trisklion symbol. To tell the difference between trisklion and the swastika is easy - trisklion when imagining it rotating should rotate in a clockwise direction with the legs trailing behind. the nazi swastika does the reverse of this. Unfortunately because of the nazi regeme people find it hard to distinguish the difference between trisklion and the swastika. One represents positive energy and the other has negative associations with hitler.

blessed be

crystal runewitch x

:colorful: :spinner: :crazylaug

[Nantonos]

Trisklion was a world recognised solar symbol of well being , health , energy and strength. Then hitler came along and reversed it and hence the swastika, an abuse of the trisklion symbol. To tell the difference between trisklion and the swastika is easy -

Yes it is, but the difference you give is incorrect.

The difference between a triskelion and a sunwheel is that a triskelion, as the name implies, has three arms. A sunwheel has four. Both can rotate in either direction.

Both clockwise and anti-clockwise sunwheels were in use many centuries before Hitler. They are commonly found on rock art dating to bronze age times.

[Shadowolff]

:eyebrow: Im'ma be a good jewitch and hush...
good one

[Shadowolff]

Way back to original topic, the swastika is found in many unlikely places -- my mom took a photo of a very old temple in Korea with one under the eaves above the front door; my parents also had an old (pre-WW II) Navaho rug with black swastikas on a tan background, with a narrow black and wider red border.

[mothwench]

eh, what a thread. :shaker:
on a lighter, more humourous note... did you know that among german asatruars, hitler is referred to as "the brown king midas"... just as everything king midas touched turned to gold... everything hitler touched turned to- well, you get the picture. :hehehehe:

[Autumn]

eh, what a thread. :shaker:
on a lighter, more humourous note... did you know that among german asatruars, hitler is referred to as "the brown king midas"... just as everything king midas touched turned to gold... everything hitler touched turned to- well, you get the picture. :hehehehe:
Good one!!

Some very evil and very twisted people have caused deep suffering and death to millions. They used two symbols, the swastika and the SS runes and defiled them. It will probably be several centuries before humankind can look upon either symbol and not shudder. :sick:

This will be an elephant in the room anytime these symbols are discussed. This can actually be considered yet another thing Hitler and the people surrounding him have takan from human kind, our collective comfort with a symbol that should be positive and may, in time become positive again.

[Nantonos]

Some very evil and very twisted people have caused deep suffering and death to millions. They used two symbols, the swastika and the SS runes and defiled them. It will probably be several centuries before humankind can look upon either symbol and not shudder. :sick:

I wonder why it is that other symbols that people used while causing death and suffering to millions are not equally reviled? Perhaps its also that the opposing side siezed on them as symbols too, to induce the revulsion.

[gyroWang]

I wonder why it is that other symbols that people used while causing death and suffering to millions are not equally reviled? Perhaps its also that the opposing side siezed on them as symbols too, to induce the revulsion.

What symbols?
Not calling you a liar, i just fancy some examples :)

[Nantonos]

What symbols?
Not calling you a liar, i just fancy some examples :)

You weren't aware that armies often used symols? Where do you think heraldry comes from?

[Autumn]

You weren't aware that armies often used symols? Where do you think heraldry comes from?
While heraldry incorperates common symbols they seldom manage to create such a strong impression or so thoughoughly defile one or two distinct symbols. If the swastica and the s runes were part of a crest along with, say the iron cross, I doubt we would have this conversation now. It would take all three symbols on the same crest as had been used to evoke the same response.

Further, The second World War was the first with multiple images captured on film. Not just Allied images, but Nazi images. It will be a very long time indeed before the image of a black swastika on white surrounded by red will not evoke a certain reaction. The "hammer and sickle" on a red flag can be just as terrifying to some and rightly so...but it had no special meaning prior to the communist era. S runes and swastikas did.

Let time pass, let the ones who suffered at the hands of these monstors pass on into the next life and the symbols will slowly loose their power and association with that horrible period. But this isn't something you can rush!

[Nantonos]

Further, The second World War was the first with multiple images captured on film. Not just Allied images, but Nazi images.

Yes. Thats what I was getting at with
the opposing side siezed on them as symbols too, to induce the revulsion. In other words, if one side uses symbols in war, the other side does not necessarily notice all that much. If one side uses the other sides symbols to 'market' the war to their population then it has a much larger effect.

Moving images with sound are best for marketing, which explains why it was WW2 and later where this came into effect (still images had been used since the Crimea in the 1850s, and cultural heritage symbols were used by both the French (our Gaulish ancestors, Vercingetorix, seige of Alesia, etc) and the Prussians (Arminius/Herman, battle of Teutoburgwald) in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870.


The "hammer and sickle" on a red flag can be just as terrifying to some and rightly so...but it had no special meaning prior to the communist era. S runes and swastikas did.

Yes, another good example.


Let time pass, let the ones who suffered at the hands of these monstors pass on into the next life and the symbols will slowly loose their power and association with that horrible period. But this isn't something you can rush!

No, it can easily take many centuries. See for example the impact of crusader symbols, still a hot button in the Middle East, for example.

[Autumn]

No, it can easily take many centuries. See for example the impact of crusader symbols, still a hot button in the Middle East, for example.
So maybe it won't fade? I am not sure I get your point here.

My point was that the swastika evokes an emotional response that will not fade just because we want it too...so we need to use care and understanding, time does heal many wounds.

I am not going to touch the middle east thing...I'm too likely to open mouth and insert foot!!:lol:

[Nantonos]

So maybe it won't fade? I am not sure I get your point here.

My point was that it might fade at different rates in different regions of the world or among different cultural groups.


My point was that the swastika evokes an emotional response that will not fade just because we want it too...so we need to use care and understanding, time does heal many wounds.

We are in agreement there.

I would add that there is a need to not enforce a time out. Some people want to actively rehabilitate symbols, and that is up to them (as for example some on the gay community rehabilitated pink triangles).


I am not going to touch the middle east thing...I'm too likely to open mouth and insert foot!!:lol:

People in the Middle East are people too. I don't see any need to rule them out of discussion.

[Hazel witchazel]

Yes it is, but the difference you give is incorrect.

The difference between a triskelion and a sunwheel is that a triskelion, as the name implies, has three arms. A sunwheel has four. Both can rotate in either direction.

Both clockwise and anti-clockwise sunwheels were in use many centuries before Hitler. They are commonly found on rock art dating to bronze age times.



Hi again
sorry to disagree with you but some of the trisklion symbol i have seen in books ( note rune magic by donald tyson, runelore by edred thorsson , runes by horik svensson and the secrets of the runes by nigel pennick to mention but a few) on the runes that refer to ancient cave paintings (pre hitler) of the trisklion symbol show it with four arms going in the reverse direction to the swastika. I think maybe we have seen different trisklion symbols, the one you refer to sounds like a later version of the one i have seen that looks something like the three legged logo on the isle of man flag. Both symbols are different variants on the trisklion symbol, which was used in many different cultures as a very powerful solar symbol. If you evere come accross the variant i have mentioned you will see that it faces a different way to the swastika. as the direction of rotation of these two symbols is important as it affects their representation.

blessed be

crystal runewitch x
:colorful:

[Nantonos]

Hi again
sorry to disagree with you but some of the trisklion symbol i have seen in books ( note rune magic by donald tyson, runelore by edred thorsson , runes by horik svensson and the secrets of the runes by nigel pennick to mention but a few) on the runes that refer to ancient cave paintings (pre hitler) of the trisklion symbol show it with four arms going in the reverse direction to the swastika. I think maybe we have seen different trisklion symbols,

Do they describe it as a triskel in those books? In particular I would be very surprised if Nigel, who is well read, would make a mistake like that.

Or are you using that word to describe the symbols that you see in those books?


the one you refer to sounds like a later version of the one i have seen that looks something like the three legged logo on the isle of man flag. Both symbols are different variants on the trisklion symbol,

Uh, no. A swastika and a triskelion are both forms of sunwheel. That is a logic error - your argument is rather like saying an animal is a type of cow; its backwards.


which was used in many different cultures as a very powerful solar symbol. If you evere come accross the variant i have mentioned

Why do you assume I haven't already read them?


you will see that it faces a different way to the swastika. as the direction of rotation of these two symbols is important as it affects their representation.

Do you have a source for that?

If you want to call a four-armed sunwheel that rotates one way a swastika and one that rotates the other way a triskele, just be aware that you are on very shaky ground from an etymological standpoint. Its rather like calling something with three wheels a bicycle.

[mothwench]

crystal, i have to agree with nantonos here... 1. the word triskelion is self-explanatory. tri means three.
and secondly, the direction of the swastika or sunwheel has no significance whatsoever as to the political correctness of the sign. granted, hitler used did use the left-spinning one, but so did many other cultures, as well as the right-spinning one. recently i even saw a picture of a native american wall-hanging which had both at the same time, one on top of each other.

[Hazel witchazel]

Do they describe it as a triskel in those books? In particular I would be very surprised in Nigel, who is well read, would make a mistake like that.

Or are you using that word to describe the symbols that you see in those books?



Uh, no. A swastika and a triskelion are both forms of sunwheel. Your argument is rather like saying an animal is a type of cow; its backwards.



Why do you assume I haven't already?

Look darling
I dont mean any disrespect to any one or to upset anyone i am just going on what it says in the previously mentioned books, which i suggest you read. We could sit and debate all day, that you think this and i know that. But theres no need to get sarcastic in the proccess as i thought we were having an intelligent debate, but if you use sarcasm to win your debate then maybe your on the wrong site, the pagan community - live and let live etc, without any bible bashing. I do think we have gone off on a tangent and are failing to answer the original question which was about Thor and his symbol being a swastika, which is a solar symbol what ever you like to call it whether thats trisklion , fylfot or swastika. i suggest we agree to disagree omitting sarcasm in the proccess.

blessed be

crystal runewitch x

:colorful:

Do you have a source for that?

If you want to call a four-armed sunwheel that rotates one way a swastika and one that rotates the other way a triskele, just be aware that you are on very shaky ground from an etymological standpoint. Its rather like calling something with three wheels a bicycle.

[Child]

The swastika was a weapon belonging to Shiva (an Indian deity), I think. It was very effective.

[Nantonos]

I must admit that the first time I read that, I thought it was a misposting - just one mega quote with no comments or additions. But now I see that there is a tiny bit of comment inside the quoted text where none of the questions I posed are answered but there is some muttering about sarcasm (and this from someone who assumes I hadn't read any books and then goes on to call me 'darling') and suggests we 'live and let live' and don't discuss it any more. While also urging me to leave the site.

Sure - if you don't have any facts to back up your theory, I'm quite happy to stop discussing it. Since the historical evidence of both clockwise and anticlockwise sunwheels being used right back to the bronze age that I and others have posted is pretty clear for others reading this thread; and since you suggesed no other reason for a triskelion to mean anything other than three armed there isn't much more to say.

[Hamelyn]

The swastika was a weapon belonging to Shiva (an Indian deity), I think. It was very effective.

I was talking with a very compassionate facist the other day that I play D&D with (I know, it's a paradox, but it's an odd friendship; he's very openminded if you prove that you're not a random jerk). His grandpappy or some such was a soldier for Nazi Germany and he is an Ast... Asa... some kind of Norse deity follower. I figured he'd know a lot more about the Thul(e?) Society than I do, and it's a subject that's always interested me. When we had a private moment, I asked him to enlighten me. He obliged, much to my delight. :)

Now, I don't remember everything about what he said, but if I remember the gist of it... members of the Thul society were in India, I don't remember why, but since it started as most spiritism movements did (in the aristocracy), I imagine they were scholars or businessfolk. While there, they were beefing up on their understanding of the local metaphysics when they found a description of five races of man. My friend couldn't remember all of them, but he told me about three: one was a blatant destroyer race, another was a subversive destructive race (which they took for some reason to be Jews, which is why to this day there's such emphasis from NeoNazis about the Jewish conspiracy/propaganda machine), and another was the Creator race. Now, each race had its symbols, and the sunwheel- as we all know- is a huge symbol of creation, throughout various cultures. Well, the Thul society were travel-happy aristocrats who had researched this fact as well, since they had their own Thor guy to think about with creative energies and variations on this sunwheel had popped up there. And lo, in this esoteric country, there's the Creator race with a strikingly similar symbol.

So, imagine this: you're in an era of political turmoil, and other respected members of this occult society you're a part of, come back from this other country, with "proof" that your people are the defenders of Creation and that these other races are out to destroy it. (It's taken less evidence to convince pagans of other things, I might add.) Were I convinced that drastic measures were the only way to save the world, I'd probobly kill people too. But then again, I'm in the military.