A rant, and hoping for some advice...

[Rævyn Cigány]

</rant>

The woman I thought was my best friend has just gone and decided to move back in with her son's father. No mentioning of names here, but suffice it to say that I feel more betrayed than I've ever felt in my life. Not NINE MONTHS after she moved in on her own, she's moving back to that place where I guess she feels she has more 'security'. Security my ass...what she has now is an endless supply of pot, sex and impending fights that I know for a fact will start all over again once she moves back into that place. What makes me the maddest is not that she's moving out again, but that I didn't even hear it from HER...I had to hear it from our mutual friend. Of course, at the time, said friend had NO idea that I hadn't been let in on this little 'secret'...she assumed that I'd known all along. *surprise*... She felt SO bad afterwards, but I assured her that's it wasn't her fault...how would she know unless Mush-for-brains hadn't told her NOT to tell me?!

I busted my ass helping her find a place, physically and mentally, and she turns her back on our friendship by pulling this. Words cannot describe how utterly hurt and betrayed I feel right now. Why doesn't she just TELL me that she doesn't want to be friends with me anymore, cuz after this, I don't think I can ever forgive her. I just want to cry.... </end rant *sob*>

My question is, is how would YOU handle this?? If I just just smile and nod, I'm looking like I"m condoning this, and I most certainly am NOT, and if I say something, I'm going to drive her furthur into this guy's life, and trust me when I tell you, it's going to destroy her...mentally, physically, spiritually, you name it. And if I've crossed any lines, Mol and Semele, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm just completely beside myself here...

B*B

Rae )O(

[Old Witch]

I can understand how you feel the way you do. The way you describe the environment is not one that I would want to see a baby in either.........I would calm down a lot, and then I would tell her exactly how I felt, but I might not say you're not my friend any more. It's her HUGE mistake to make, and when she realises the mistake, she's gonna need a real friend to cry to! If you can help her again, it'll be you. But that's only if you feel YOU can go through it again.......

[MammaStar]

Rae, I can understand how you feel. You feelings are valid. However as harsh as this may sound, you just have to let her go back there and just forget it. Sometimes, a person has to lose everything before they realize they're in trouble.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Shrugs** I dunno. . . I don't think I could stretch out my hand (and my neck) to help someone like that again. But at the very least, it might be worth a phone call to ask her what the devil she was thinking when she moved back in.

[Semele]

Yup, sucks for sure, but ultimately it is she who has to make the life decisions for herself. Sounds like she has a lot of growing up to do. You have been a good friend and I have no doubt you will continue to do so at whatever cost because thats who you are. We should all be so lucky to have friends like you on our side.

I would call her up and talk to her though at least about the lack of trust or whatever that led her to not tell you. I have a feeling it is because she knew you would try to talk some sense into her. But, I also don't think talking will help, as far as making her see the error she is making. It is her life and she has to live it...that doesn't mean we can't be there to hold hands etc when needed, but we can't continue to be dissappointed when they prove to be human. We can only force change on ourselves.

[mol]

Originally posted by Rævyn Cigány

My question is, is how would YOU handle this?? If I just just smile and nod, I'm looking like I"m condoning this, and I most certainly am NOT, and if I say something, I'm going to drive her furthur into this guy's life, and trust me when I tell you, it's going to destroy her...mentally, physically, spiritually, you name it. And if I've crossed any lines, Mol and Semele, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm just completely beside myself here...

Why would there be any crossed lines?

Anyway, I wouldnt do anything about it for a day or so to let yourself calm a bit. Then you should probably tell your friend that you DONT condone what she is doing and that you feel hurt that she didnt tell you personally. Leave it at that.

[SerenityMoon]

it's beautiful that you cared so much about your friend to help her out of that harmful environment...but I think it's time to let go. You helped her, you gave her what you could, and you have to take care of yourself before the stress of the situation completely drains you. Oftentimes we are so intent on helping the ones we love that we forget to help ourselves...gently explain to her that you tried to help her, and i fthese are the decisions she's going to make, then this is how you will feel. If she can't accept that, then you must walk away. If she can, maybe you two can still talk and whatnot, but only if you feel comfortable with her.

[Rubi Waters]

I agree with what everyone else has said. It's a hard thing to let them go, (I've been there) but it's their life and nothing you can do to change it. You should definately tell her how you feel (after you calm down) and just let her know where you stand. It's hard I wont tell you otherwise, but you have to take care of yourself and can't get thrown into her misery.

[Ravens_Tears]

I have been in your position more times than I care to count. It is very difficult to stand by and watch someone making the same mistakes over and over, but I have learned the hard way that it's their mistakes to make. It is up to you to decide for yourself when you can no longer be there to pick them up every time they fall. Sometimes, with some people, it makes a difference, others just never seem to learn.... I have the feeling that this is coming across as very cold, and I didn't mean it to. The fact that there is a child involved makes it all the more difficult. It is one thing for your friend to make choices that endanger her life, it is another matter entirely when those choices endanger her child and puts them at risk. It is important that you calm yourself and assess the situation, then decide where you will go from there. It is very difficult situation and I really feel for you. There is one rule of thumb I use when I am trying to decide what actions I will take; when all is said and done, when I look in the mirror, will I like who I see and know, no matter how difficult it was, that I did the right thing.

[Ahautenites]

If you're truly concerned about the child's welfare, you can always use it as a bargaining chip. Tell her that if she goes back to him, you'll see that her child is removed from her care.

If you feel that you can still eventually be friends with her, then do so, but make it known that you don't approve of what she's done.

If it were me, though.... **shakes head** Many years ago, I had a friend named Michelle. She was what I thought was my best friend, and in fact she was my only friend ever all through school. Michelle's life took a vastly different route than mine did when she left for private school. We remained friends, but she was very different from the person I grew up with. Eventually, she drank far too much for her own good, smoked marijuanna, which I sure as hell don't approve of (but we won't go there, seeing as I'm in a mood to decapitate anyone who tries to argue with me today), but stilll I was her friend. Even when she started using more expensive drugs, I was still her friend. I'd tell her that I didn't approve of what she did, but what else was I do do? She was my only friend. And always....*always*.... she would call me at odd hours of day and night to complain about all of her problems and how her life sucked and did I have any advice for getting her out of trouble. And always, I would think as hard as I could, care as much as I dared, to help her fix what was wrong. Then, one night, I was tired and grouchy, and sick of always being treated like a sounding board. I was about to go off the deep end on her when she said that she'd been at a party and had been raped.

I was all set to murder the guy. I stayed on the phone talking to her and calming her down, for hours. And by the time she hung up, it was very late, and I decided to go to sleep and worry more about it in the morning.

I called her that next night after school, but she wasn't around. I called the next day and she wasn't around. The day after that, she called me. And she said that she and her rapist were now a couple.

That was the final straw. I never called her again. She called me once after that conversation, but I told her I didn't think we should be friends anymore. About six months later, she called again, and I talked to her coldly. She told me that her loser had dumped her and she was pregnant, but that the baby had no brain, so she was going to have an abortion. **shrugs** I said I was sorry for her losses. And I hung up.

Was I a shrew? Maybe. But I have more important things to worry about in life than people who constantly whine for my help and advice and never heed it. That's part of the reason I can't stand Phoenix Blue's ex-. She reminds me a lot of Michelle, but taken to an even further extreme.

**sighs** I'm one of the more forgiving people of the world. But don't ever cross that final line, because I don't forget, and I won't forgive.... at least not for the duration of this lifetime.

I remained completely friendless for six very long, lonely years. It wasn't until a couple years ago when I visited the discussion area I used to belong to that I found out what REAL friends are. I thank my lucky stars that I have these people in my life.

[Ravens_Tears]

Originally posted by NeferSesemet

If you're truly concerned about the child's welfare, you can always use it as a bargaining chip. Tell her that if she goes back to him, you'll see that her child is removed from her care.


I can understand why you would suggest this but I know that this would be a very wrong action. You never threaten anyone who is in an abusive relationship. You accomplish nothing except alienating that person and they will no longer hear ANYTHING you have to say and you have effectively destroyed any chance you had of making any difference in their lives. In effect, psychologically, it makes you equivalent to being placed in the same category as the abuser. Quite often an abuser will threaten exactly that to keep their partner under their control. The colloquial term for Children's Services amoung the lower-income bracket here is the "Poor Man's Mafia" and I have been witness to several incidents where people have called "child and family" on someone just to make their lives miserable because they are angry about something else, nothing at all to do with being concerned with a child's well-being at all....

What you can do is voice your concerns to your friend over her child's well-being in regards to her choices. Make clear to her that you are concerned because you care about both of them. At no point threaten to have her child taken away. If you truely feel that the child is in danger, you report that fear to the proper agency and they deal with it. At that point it is out of your hands and you have sincerely done everything you could.

When someone you care about is being manipulated or abused and you turn around and try to control them through the same tactics that an abuser employs, you indirectly validate the actions of the abuser. It is not intentional, but that is what happens.....

[Ahautenites]

True... but I don't make idle threats. If I say I'm going to do something if someone doesn't do what I say, I do exactly what I said I was going to do and shame on you because I gave you fair warning.

And this was assuming that you were worried enough about the child to pursue this course of action and don't care about being friends with this person anymore.

[Ravens_Tears]

Originally posted by NeferSesemet

True... but I don't make idle threats. If I say I'm going to do something if someone doesn't do what I say, I do exactly what I said I was going to do and shame on you because I gave you fair warning.

And this was assuming that you were worried enough about the child to pursue this course of action and don't care about being friends with this person anymore.

Irregardless if it's an idle threat or not, a threat is what it is, intimidation to manipulate/exert control over anothers actions through engendering fear in them. That action, in and of it's self is psychologically abusive and is definately the wrong course of action to take if you are truely concerned over the well-being of the child whether or not you want to maintain a friendship with the parent. Intentions may be good but the consequential repercussions from that type of action are usually far from the desired result. At best, you can hope that they will, in fact, leave. More often than not though, this results in the abuse being hidden, or driven underground. It can cause the whole situation to escalate in ways that you may never have imagined possible with tragic consequences. If you honestly feel a child is seriously endangered, that is what Child Protection agencies are for. It is their job to investigate reports of suspected child abuse and carry out subsequent appropriate steps to ensure the child's safety. In issuing an ultimatum of this sort and then turning around and making the report due to the person's non-compliance with it. You have just given them ample opportunity to prepare to hide the abuse as best they can. If they inform the investigator that threats of this nature were made before the reporting, it often affects the way they will assess the situation because of the circumstances of the original report of abuse. They do not take as seriously allegations that appear to be made out of spite, which is how it would be implied. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

If you honestly believe that a child is that endangered, you report it. In Canada, anyone who suspects a child is abused is required by law to report it. Failure to report and/or coersion (even with best intentions) is illegal and prosecutable here.

[Phoenix Blue]

I'm kinda on the fence, here.

On one hand, I don't like being threatened, so part of me wants to say, "Don't say anything, just do it." On the other: if you feel it'll make a positive difference, go ahead and tell her what you plan on doing--but don't deliver it as a threat. **Scratches head** Does that make any sense?

[SerenityMoon]

Originally posted by Ravens_Tears

Irregardless if it's an idle threat or not, a threat is what it is, intimidation to manipulate/exert control over anothers actions through engendering fear in them.
Irregardless isn't a word *wink*

[Willow_Raindancer]

In my opinion it all boils down to one question.
What type of a person do YOU want to be?
Do you want to be a friend (oftentimes that friendship is NOT reciprocated) and do what you feel is the right thing to do?
OR do you want to be the type of person who gives up on what you feel is right, simply because it's easier that dealing with a person who drives you nuts at times?

You can't make someone else be as good a friend as you are.
BUT anytime you have a problem with a friend, relative or someone you've just met, ask yourself:
"What kind of person do I want to be?"
Find that answer and live accordingly;)

[Drisel]

According to the dictionary there is such a word as irregardless.
Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

If you don't believe me look it up!
http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

[Ahautenites]

**goes into professional editor mode** "Irregardless" is a word. However, "irregardless" is considered anathema in the editing world. "Regardless" is the word of choice.

Back to the topic.... Raven's Tears, what you say makes sense. I admit I hadn't thought that it would be hiding the abuse. But the reason I hadn't thought of it is because I was reading this as this friend had not yet moved in with her ex-, so therefore, there was not currently a case of abuse. If however, she's already there, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that the abuse would be hidden.

I think I'm also working from a different mindset than yours. I have already left one lifetime "Friend" because of her sheer stupidity. And I will not ever speak to her again. I would have no qualms about repudiating another friend for such idiocy. I also have a certain "moral flexibility" that makes it possible for me to blackmail or manipulate someone with a merry heart if I think it will do more good than ill. Does this make me a bad person? To some people. Does this make me undesirable as a friend? Perhaps, for some people. **shrugs** Takes all kinds to make a world.

[SerenityMoon]

strange. I was always told in english class it wasn't. ah well. apologies!

[Willow_Raindancer]

Originally posted by SerenityMoon

strange. I was always told in english class it wasn't. ah well. apologies!

There are a lot of words used today that are not proper English. I would never point out it's usage to someone. I don't always use English perfectly and I don't know anyone who does either.
I do know "a lot" is two words not one LOL!

I also know friendship is seldom 50/50!
Like I said, it's about what type of person someone choses to be, not what their friend can do for them;)
JMHO!

[Ravens_Tears]

I do know what you mean Nefersemet, there are people I've known that drive me:bug: and have had to drop them because I can't handle them anymore, they never seem to clue into reality and you have to walk away before you, well to be blunt :smash: or :uzi: them:ugh:.

Off Topic... but it might give you all a smile
SerenityMoon, no apologies warrented or needed. :) You will probably also notice from time to time that I use Canadian english spellings ;) . I admit my style of writing is a bit eclectic. I was taught gender-neutral, third person for formal expression. Apparently it breaks most of the rules of proper APA and MLA formats, though my professors in university never docked me marks for it as my papers were always "a good read" (so they said) because they were fluid. And I freely admit to inventing my own terms, though I was taught "irregardless" in grade 10 english. This example from one of my chat intros should be cause for amusement... and, surprisingly enough, this one is pg!:D

"If you're obtuse, hedonistic, reality impaired, synaptically challenged, morally bankrupt or hormonally driven PLEASE don't bother me! Looking for fun, intelligent people to chat with."

English is a fun language to play with!



:D

[Derry]

..here's my advice. She may need to learn a life lesson on her own. A couple of years ago I was a boss at an office. One of the girls I was in charge of was having problems at home. husband beat her, brought his girlfriends into her bedroom and took all of her personal items and gave them to his girlfriends!!! She had difficult times and it really showed at work. I made exceptions for her and even directed her to our company's free counseling. The councelors were even going to give her free legal service. She refused all of this because " She really still loved her husband and thought she was deserving of his cruel treatment." This went on for months and she never did any of her work and constantly missed work. Finally, she was fired. I felt bad for her...but she kept going back to this guy. That was 3 years ago. Just a few weeks ago I found out that she has her life back on track. Why? Her husband bet her up so bad she ended up in the ER. I'm sad that she had to get physically hurt. No one deserves that . But I am glad to know that she now has her own house, sole custody of her children and has a new succesful job. Many tried to help her, but it took being hit one time too hard for her to realize. I would keep an eye out for the chold though. If you see real evidence that the enviroment is bad for the child (abuse, drug use etc) call the authorities. Children need people to protect them.