Possible Cause of Doubt....

[Sylv]

I've been thinking about the struggles some of us go through in trying to believe in deities. Personally, I was an atheist for five years (starting at the tender age of 11), and it took a long time for the atheist in me to stop questioning my religion. I have recently gotten to the point where I know my deities exist, and looking back I realized that the last time I had this conviction was when I believed in Santa as a child.
I don't believe it's a coincidence that it was only a year between when Santa ceased to exist, and when I became an atheist. After all, I was sure that Santa was real, and then it turned out that he was just a story adults like telling their children. I honestly think that this disillusionment is a major source in my inability to believe things. I naturally have a questioning mind, and I still question my religion daily, but I think there's a difference between questioning your beliefs to make sure that they fit your values, life goals, etc. and not being able to believe in a god or goddess.
So, what does everyone else think? Could Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc. have something to do with your skepticism? What other things do you think contributed/caused your disbelief? And what finally happened that allowed you to look past it? Or are you still skeptical at heart?
I'm really interested in everyone's ideas, and look forward to reading the replies. :D

[Mnemosyne]

Before I read this post of yours, Sylv, I read what you wrote regarding what the deity has taught you. In my opinion, spirituality is based on faith. You have to faith. I, too, have doubted. I turn to skeptism when I am going through tough times. I wonder why I must struggle and if the Goddess is helping me out. But then I hit a point and I think that the Goddess has a plan for me. So basically, I put my faith in the deity.

[mol]

I believe nothing.

Sounds like you are a lot like me. Perhaps you should start branching out and learning even more about different things. It sounds like your mind wants more info....more proof. Maybe like me, its not enough to believe, maybe you have to Know. :)

[Hamelyn]

Personally, I find myself thinking that the commercial version of Santa is kind of an avatar of old gods, like Mithra, coming back in military style to claim the day. It's an amusing mental image but it makes sense. I've got a pretty loose spirituality though, and am something of a whackjob. Ahem.

I think that both Mol and Mnemosyne are on to something, though. Best of luck. ;) I know I go through a lot of questioning, but I think that curiousity and cynicism can be useful tools if used well. It drives me to study more and learn more, if nothing else. And it helps me discern what would make the most sense to believe in. *nod*

[Sylv]

But then I hit a point and I think that the Goddess has a plan for me. So basically, I put my faith in the deity.
Hmm, Mnemosyne, that's interesting. I don't think that there is a master plan/fate (but then, I don't have the Greek pantheon with its three aspects of fate, either)-so do you believe in predestination, free will, or somewhere in between?


Maybe like me, its not enough to believe, maybe you have to Know.
*nods* This is me exactly, mol. :D I'm currently at a point where I have a lot of free time and I've been doing a lot of reading/research. I've gotten to the point where I Know my deities exist, but now I'm having issues with the afterlife. :rolleyes: So I'm just reading, hoping something will click (right now I'm in the middle of I and Thou, by Buber...interesting book...).


Personally, I find myself thinking that the commercial version of Santa is kind of an avatar of old gods, like Mithra, coming back in military style to claim the day.
I'm confused, Hamelyn. :o If you could clarify that I'd be grateful, hehe. Yeah-I definitely enjoy my curiosity (though I don't think I'm a cynic-wish I could be)-my friends and family roll their eyes at the books I read, hehe.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally posted by Sylv

Hmm, Mnemosyne, that's interesting. I don't think that there is a master plan/fate (but then, I don't have the Greek pantheon with its three aspects of fate, either)-so do you believe in predestination, free will, or somewhere in between?


Actually, I believe in a combination of free will and fate. I used to believe more heartedly in free will; however, I realized that there are some things that no matter will they do weren't meant to be. So I have believed more in the power of fate. Thus, my believe in fate really doesn't have much to do with the Greek pantheon and the Fates.

Hey, I think that Hamelyn was trying to say that Santa is based on pagan gods. Hey, this started off as a silly thread, but it has good info. You can see that Mithra is associated with Yule. http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22323

Take care, Sylv

:)

[Hamelyn]

Yeah. The whole Santa being based on pagan deities, but sometimes, I really do believe that the rabid commercialism is another avatar of the military inclinations of the deities associated with that time of year. It's more optimistic than complaining, at least.

Also, according to some of the things I've researched, the word "cynic" comes from Kynikos, or "Dogs of the Goddess." It was a cult in ancient Greece. The members dedicated themselves to distinguishing between the two types of fate, Heimarmene, stuff happened because of choices you made in the past, and Ananke, or Moera, coming from the old word for "house lot". It was your "lot". It happened; and we're sorry, but it did.

Which is a lot how I view the fate thing. I believe there is gravity, so to speak- some things guiding us, some things just happening because of random chance or the decisions we (and often others) have made. So there's free choice meshed with predestination, and flat-out luck. It's kind of free-form, but I like free-form.

This concludes our rambling for the evening. G'night, dearies.

[Sylv]

Thanks for the clarification-I figured you meant Santa was some pagan god but wasn't sure why you meant that, lol. That's interesting about the cynic thing-I never knew that! The analogy between fate and gravity is very cool as well...I don't agree with it, but it's a great image for fate. :D

[Semele]

I have wondered myself, many times, whether it is healthy to tell our children stories of Santa when we know that at some point in their lives they will come to the knowledge that there is no physical guy who does all the things the stories say. Are we setting them up for a lack of belief in God/Goddess/themselves?

A favorite book of mine touches on the subject of what we tell our kids and how we treat them differently, even with the tone of voice we use with them and do them a huge injustice. I believe this to be true to a certain extent, yet I am caught in a hard place myself. I don't want to set my children up for disappointment, but I don't want to deny them the magical feeling of Santa and the wonderful feelings I remember as a child. I just think that I have to find some way to explain the whole thing to them in a way that doesn't lead them to the conclusion that we have been teasing them with lies, but that we are instead introducing the idea of magikal thoughts and beliefs.

Then again, on a side note, I still believe in Santa. Not in the flesh so much as the spirit of that time of year when everyone is filled with an energy that is undeniably magik and wonderful if we open our eyes to that part of it and choose to see through all the monetary aspects of it.

[~ Monk ~]

Originally posted by Sylv
So, what does everyone else think? Could Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc. have something to do with your skepticism? What other things do you think contributed/caused your disbelief? And what finally happened that allowed you to look past it? Or are you still skeptical at heart?
I'm really interested in everyone's ideas, and look forward to reading the replies. :D

As a kid I had a minor Christian background - nothing formal, just the typical praying to Jesus and occasionally attending church. When I hit high school it seemed like I was bombarded by BA Christians trying to get me to convert by using scare tactics about going to hell - things like I needed to cut my hair or I'd burn in a hole, etc. That motivated me to read the Bible straight through because what I was being told by some of these people went against everything I knew, and sure enough I found lots of hypocrisy. All that combined with seeing too many people seemingly turn to God as a last resort and/or just going through the motions, and finally the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakers of the world, really made me turn away from religion as I knew it - I found it impossible to believe in a God.

I took a World Religions class in college shortly after that because I wanted to know more about other paths - my only other experiences with them were being told they were "weird" or against God. I found a lot of things that I identified with in other religions, and decided from that point on that I wasn't going to follow a particular religion, just be someone who combined good lessons and ideas from a variety of beliefs. Eventually I read up on Native American history and their respect of and spiritual relationship with nature. I started to see Earth as the closest thing to deity in my life. That opened the door to where I am today.

So I can't point the finger at Santa or the Easter Bunny for my period of skepticism - just at poor "teachers" who seemed to be preying on people already in the midst of a confusing stage of life.

[Ravens_Tears]

In my experience, there is always something we can learn from every experience we have, be that burning your fingers and learning not to play with matches or reading and exploring others beliefs whether or not we "believe" them ourselves.

When something (anything) of significance has come into my life, there hasn't just been an intellectual "click" but they resonate, it's a feeling. They make my soul "sing". It's a very harmonious thing. This includes ideas, theologies, anam cara's, actions.... Things that I find dischordant I tend to pull away from. What ever has the "ring of truth" when you find it is what is right for you. :)

[Sylv]

I don't want to set my children up for disappointment, but I don't want to deny them the magical feeling of Santa and the wonderful feelings I remember as a child.
*nods* That's just how I feel. Fortunately, kids are a long way into my future so at least I don't have to worry about that yet, lol.

Then again, on a side note, I still believe in Santa.
That's how my mom feels, and it's how I used to feel. However, it seems like a lot of the 'giving spirit' is being replaced by the 'let's buy Susie a toy so that she doesn't feel less loved than her friend spirit'. But then I read another beautiful Christmas story and Santa emerges once again. :) It seems like I'm just torn-but last year I crocheted sets of ornaments for every aunt and uncle 'set', as well as the grandparents (that makes nine in my family, hehe)-and I got so many thank you's and compliments it made Christmas come alive again. My mom and I's eyebrow-waxer person (more info than you wanted to know, I'm sure :rolleyes: ) is really sweet, and we're good friends with her. For Christmas she gave us this home-made tea mix in a cute little jar: my mom loves the stuff! I like the idea of the spirit of Santa in homemade gifts like that (and store bought, too, as long as they're for the right reasons) but I also like the idea that it's just good ol' human nature showing it's beautiful side. *shrugs* I think I'm rambling.
Sorry about your bad experiences Shpongle (cute name, btw)-fortunately I've never had any real run-ins with Christianity, or any other religion. When I told my mom I was an atheist, I also mentioned that that meant if I went to church I wouldn't kneel down: I was never made to go to church after that. :) Now that I'm a little older (and a little more mature), I go to church with my mom, so that she won't have to go alone. I bow down, but I pray to my deities and with a lot of the hymns, and I only sing the words that work with my faith. I've found that most Christians are really sweet (even living in the Bible belt)-a lot of my good friends are Christians and when they say they worry about me, or are praying for my soul, I thank them and tend to leave at that. I've had enough discussions with them that they know they're not going to change my mind, and that I can quote the Bible almost as well as they can! *grin*

When something (anything) of significance has come into my life, there hasn't just been an intellectual "click" but they resonate, it's a feeling. They make my soul "sing".
Ravens_Tears, that is so nicely put. Thank you. :)

[Derry]

I can't really say it was the truth about santa that made me question....it was the beliefs of each religion in this world that got my attention. In Baptist church they said all other religions were on the wrong track on could go to hell. Then the Catholics said the same thing. Then Christian religions as a whole sort of joined together and said "non-Christians would go to hell" including Buddist, Hindu, Pagans, etc. Wow!!!! That meant that hell sure had a lot of people coming their way!!!! But, I just couldn't accept that. A higher being is too vast and great to be put into " this shape, that color and of these rules." That's when I questioned religion as a whole. Even wondered if there was a higher being, but through life experience, I feel there is one andI choose to worship that higher being in my own way.....not how one particular religion says to.

[Elfa Wylde]

M*M Sylv,
Somehting tells me that it's not that you found out there was no Santa, but maybe HOW you found out.

When I was little, and finally asked the $60,000.00 question "is Santa real?" my Mother took me aside and explained thusly:

Santa is short for Saint Nicholas. He was a real man who lived a long long time ago. His country was very poor and the children didn't have much. So, Saint Nicholas decided that since children, who were innocent, were closest to God and they deserved to be honoured. In representation of the christ child and the gifts of the magi, he began work on toys and otherthing that children need, then at christmas time or Yule, he began to distribute these gifts. When he passed away, the catholic church made him a saint. The Patron saint of Children. He's a special spirit now. And when we give to other people, we're honouring his gentleness and kindness. It's like we're all Santa.

Obviously, my mom was catholic and i'm now wiccan, but her words are no less true.

She told me gently that Santa was no longer a living man, and let me be Santa in whatever way I wanted. Many years later, I have up the christian religion, in favour of one that doesn't have people cringing in fear of retribution if they even THINK the "wrong" thoughts. (that was my biggest trouble with that religion)

Belief isn't really the right word for it anyway, not if you ask me. Then again, I'm not sure "knowing" is either. The way I see it (at least for the moment lol) is that there is something out there that is greater than I am. I like the idea that it's female, mostly because by tradition females mean Mother, and mothers are nurturing and caring. but for balance I like the idea that there's also male dieties. (lets face it, even us tough celtic-bread redheads like a strong man to lean on once in a while)
I THINK that this "force" (for lack of a better term at this point) is divvied up into different aspects. some very much alike, and others very different. It's these aspects that we name. Flidas, Freya, Danu, Pan, Cernunnos, Isis, Osirus, Thor, Zeus....
and why? To make them more approachable. To make them more familiar, more like extended family than some Ruling Diety that may or may not give you a hand when you need it depending on whim.

well...it's a thought. i tend to go on and on, and if some of who reads this think i went on too long...i think you should have stopped before you got bored. I can't apologise for a thought.

Luck be with you, whatever you make of it, and blessed be,

[Erincelt]

I remember my philosophy course, when we did our section on religion. We each had to pick one from a list and learn all about it, then teach the class.. oh that was fun. I ended up doing Confucionism (sp?).

But anyway.. it was in that class that I learned that some of the world's greatest doubters of "God" were monks, nuns, and other terminal devotees. This made no sense to me at first, but in time I figured it out: doubt is healthy. There was a philosopher -- I can't think of his name to save my life right now, but I know I know it -- who decided anything he could doubt could not be true. I think it may have been Descarte, but I wouldn't swear by it.. with that in mind I figured out the "I think therefore I am" before we ever even covered it. The fact is.. doubt helps us to rethink things. If you can doubt something.. then there must be something about it worth rediscovering. If you doubt deity, then it means you understand that there is more than you know.

I make a point of doubting everything I believe. If I can prove myself wrong, then I must be on to something, neh? Of course it helps to have a weak ego. :)