The Gender of God

[amberlaine]

We've had some interesting go-rounds in this forum with the issue of the gender identity of God. Mystique asserts that God is necessearily female and that the idea of a male God is insupportable.

Why is that, Mystique? Why must God necessarily be female? And don't quote Merlin Stone or Budapest at me. From your heart, from your philosophy, from your soul--why is this so?

For the rest of us: does God have a gender?

In the bible, it says "God created man in his own image: male and female he created them." Now, granted, many of us don't follow the Bible as truth about the nature of God, but this passage does give us something to think about. What image of God are we talking about here? Gender?

Furthermore, in humans, gender associations tend to be somewhat arbitrary. Traditionally, women were quiet, softspoekn, docile. Men were outspoken, brash, severe. This is not inherent behavior of our unique genders--this is an arbitrary assignment of gender based on the mood of the times. Even gender roles are evolving today. That said, what does it mean to assign a gender to Deity? If male and female "qualities" are but random associatens arbitrarily attributed to one category or the other, is the notion of gender with reference to God even useful?

[loopy]

Just so I'm clear--are we talking about the first creator of life? To me, God is a male term, Goddess is female. We're discussing the initial life-giver, right?

[amberlaine]

I make no real distinction between God and Goddess. I'm talking about Deity. The Soul of the World. "The Force" as it were.

[loopy]

Ok, so in the first post, were you referring to Deity with the word God?

I'm really sorry; I haven't gone to sleep yet. :(

[amberlaine]

Yes.

[Emy]

Originally posted by amberlaine
[B


In the bible, it says "God created man in his own image: male and female he created them." Now, granted, many of us don't follow the Bible as truth about the nature of God, but this passage does give us something to think about. What image of God are we talking about here? Gender?

[/B]

Ok, this is rather interesting... well, I hope I wont offend anyone by writing this but really, I think that it is written that God created man in his own image, because I don't think they could have pictured a God in any other way... surely a god must be as superior as humans, surely he would look like that, surely he couldn't look like a cat or whatever... that would have been to complicated for most people at that time to understand or believe, they wouldn't have bought the idea so to speak... even more complicated would it be for them to think of a god as something we could not see, like a spirit of some sort...
This is how I believe they reasoned (in those days).

Thease are just my own guessings to how they have been reasoning... and when I speak of the people I mean that people in general (in those days) would have had a hard time accepting other images, like God as a woman, or as an animal or as a spirit of some sort...
Please don't misunderstand me here, I know this might sound somewhat cynic, but thease are just my guessings, its just a thought. I respect all religion, and although christianity/judaism is not mine a feel a great respect towords that religion (or any religion for that matter).

Blessed be

[Mairwen]

I want to share this bit from Gwyddon Bardic/Deitic Lore, as it fits in nicely with this topic. Please keep in mind that this is Lore from the Gwyddon Tradition and isn't meant as a put-down on any other Path. I'd planned to post it as an article/thread of its own, but here it is:



On Kerridwen

We are all children of the Goddess, All Things having flowed forth, birthed of the Great Mother. This description of the Manifesting Principle (Creation) tends to have us see the “Goddess” as a woman, being limiting in this way. I mean, you just know that men aren’t aspects of Kerridwen now don’t you?

Yes, that may be a silly way to put it, but it addresses a very basic problem. Can we see the Creator of all things as a Woman or a Man? Well, don’t we call Kerridwen a Goddess and refer to her in exclusively feminine terms? Here’s the rub. A woman gives birth in our Universe. So of course when we see the birth of the Universe itself, we see a woman/goddess performing the action. But how can any woman give birth alone? It is true that Kerridwen herself creates the great dualities: Manifest/Unmanifest; Light/Dark; Positive/Negative; Female/Male. That is to say, Kerridwen the Great is not a Female. Kerridwen the Great is the Source of maleness and femaleness and, therefore, contains both.

Symbolically, this can be demonstrated in another way. Kerridwen is Ninefold. That is to say Kerridwen the Great has Eight Aspects – Bright and Dark, with three aspects of each. Kernunnos is said to have Eight Aspect – one each for the Female Kerridwen aspects. Kerridwen the Great needed no husband, as She was the Boundlessness itself; Oneness. But when She created Duality (Bright and Dark Kerridwens), she also created Kernunnos as a husband for each of her aspects. The number of Kernunnos is eight, corresponding to the eight High Days of the year. The number of Kerridwen is nine, the eight aspects of the creation and the One herself. But She does actually have a consort, Kernunnos within Herself, both Bright and Dark.

This holds true in all aspects of creation. She has placed a little of both sides of herself in each of us. Maleness in Females, Femaleness in Males, on many levels, emotional, mental and even at a hormonal level. A male’s gonads may produce testosterone, which we identify as Male, while simultaneously the adrenals produce the female hormone estrogen and progesterone. The reverse is true in the female body with the ovaries and the adrenals. We are all aspects of Kerridwen the Great, just varying degrees of her duality of creation.

[amberlaine]

surely a god must be as superior as humans, surely he would look like that, surely he couldn't look like a cat or whatever... that would have been to complicated for most people at that time to understand or believe, they wouldn't have bought the idea so to speak... even more complicated would it be for them to think of a god as something we could not see, like a spirit of some sort...

Emy,

In your above post you imply that somehow we are more spititually evolved today and therefore better equipped to envision God in a form more closely related to whatever God actually is.

Do you think this is true? Do you think that today we have somehow come closer to the truth of the essence of the Divine? If that is so, then we do we place gender assignments on a being that transcends all earthly characteristics? Is there something inherent in economic, societal, and physical evolution that necessarily allows us to view Deity in more complete terms, or are we kidding ourselves?

I dont think we're any closer to the truth than people in "those times"....

[Earth Walker]

Years ago, I talked to an ex-Catholic nun and priest, who
embraced the Goddess Traditions upon leaving the church.
In our discussion, they mentioned that if the people really
knew the truth about christianity/religion that there would be
mass anarchy in the streets, all over the world.
I pressed them for an explanation, but to no avail. All they
would say was that that knowledge would become public
knowledge in due time.
I think about this often, and those thoughts have given me many
questions to which I can find no answers....and that is scary,
wondering just how bad that civil unrest will be...what is the
true agenda of the ruling patriarchs...to turn people against each
other? It is happening now, with religious disputes/wars now
going on, the Taliban, who seem to want to start a religious war,
thus enabling them to commit 'Jihad', the holy war where all
"infidels" are put to death, that is, anyone/everyone who is not
Muslim, have forced East Indians to "conform" to Islamic laws,
especially women, where a woman can be shot if she is found
outside without a male escort, she can be shot if she shows
more flesh than the eye area, or if a lock of hair is in sight.
Where will this go? War? Most likely!
It is happening now with many people unemployed, homeless,
and the numbers are rising, corporate merging/downsizing, etc.,
FTAA, NAFTA, WTO, GATT,......and the rapid decline of the middle-
class.....so now we have a massive gulf between rich and poor.
People need to eat, and with conditions becoming worse,
people will revolt and take from the "haves" in order to survive.
We are seeing a rise in violence against women, against those
people who are not white, rapid destruction of the environment,
farmland, wildlife/habitat, etc., against anyone who is lesbian,
gay, transsexual, Pagan, etc.
In Goddess/Matriarchal societies, there was no "religious" war
against each other to prove that one "was right."
People were not homeless or hungry because they had no money; everyone all worked together to help one another,
helping to build houses, providing food to everyone when they
had need, they realized that no person "owns" the land; we
only live on it for a time, no one had need for money, all things
were provided to us freely and they gave freely.
Men have been victimized by the patriarchal religion as well,
although many lack the means to know: where he must compete
with other men, thus adding to his stress levels, led to believe
that man is superior to all other life, other people, etc.
There are many men in the Pagan community that understand
that both genders are equal, that ALL people are equal, and
that all life on Mother Earth is sacred.
I am referring to the mainstream society, where we have the
idiotology of patriarchs like Stockwell Day, Dubya, Fox, Blair,
Hanson(lackey), and others constantly ranting and raving that
only patriarchal fundamentalism knows what is best for every-
one else....this is why patriarchal religions are interdependent
with big business, governments, and media, to control with fear,
greed,.......why do the patriarchs feel the need to "value"
everyting in monetary terms, when everything was given to us freely, and thus to give to everyone freely,

[Mairwen]

People were not homeless or hungry because they had no money; everyone all worked together to help one another,
helping to build houses, providing food to everyone when they
had need, they realized that no person "owns" the land; we
only live on it for a time, no one had need for money, all things
were provided to us freely and they gave freely.

You know, I was thinking about this back in the Fall as I drove from where I live down to my mom's ~ I live in a metro-area; she lives an hour away "in the country" (believe me, in KY, an hour away from most things is "the sticks"). I couldn't believe that even that far out from anything (ie, jobs, schools, life) people were building these huge houses (you know the ones I'm talking about; the ones you find in any suburb these days ~ 3 stories, front-side garages; huge!).

It made me wonder whatever happened to the times when food, clothing and shelter was a basic, given right for all community members. Have we slipped so far from tribal identity? People don't take care of their kindred anymore ~ family doesn't take care of family anymore, let alone strangers. I can testify to this personally on both counts.

There are many men in the Pagan community that understand
that both genders are equal, that ALL people are equal, and
that all life on Mother Earth is sacred.

Praise be.

why do the patriarchs feel the need to "value" everyting in monetary terms, when everything was given to us freely, and thus to give to everyone freely

Now that's a question I would like to find an answer to. I'm going to post just this section to a mulit-faith list I'm on (no names mentioned, just the question), just to see what it stirs up. Yes, I can be like that. Life's too short to be taken too seriously :rolleyes:, and it is a very valid question! :eek:

[amberlaine]

Wow Mystique, think you could answer the question any less?

[Mairwen]

Amberlaine, I think that was totally uncalled for. Please refrain from such posts in the future. Thank you.

[Emerald Sky]

For the rest of us: does God have a gender?

For me, The All is neither male nor female, but at the same time it's both. :eek: It's difficult for us humans to imagine something as not having a gender, thus we assign our human understanding to a non-human being. I understand the Source being all things, including male and female.

Mystique, I had a question for you which I've been wondering about for awhile. You understand the Source as being strictly female, correct? I think I've read that you believe there could be no male god without a goddess having given birth to it. My question is then, where did the female goddess come from? If she 'always was' then why couldn't a male god have 'always been'?

Mairwen's essay touched on this, but I guess I still don't fully understand it. I'm interested in your explanation.

Thanks! :)

[Mairwen]

According to our Creation Myth, Kerridwen created Kernunnos to join her. However, in reality, when the Celts arrived in Wales, Kernunnos was adopted and thus fitted into the pantheon.

[Armitage]

To me, the source has no gender, and the multiple Deities give it such qualities through Themselves, like light passing through colored lenses.

[Lucidia]

gender seems to only be an issue in species of beings that reproduce sexually. "men" and "women" have many of the same qualities and capabilities. Within different animals and whatnot, there are species where the male are dominant, and some where females are dominant.

Deities, or gods/goddess', are not nessicarily animals like we can consider ourselves to be. I think that in order for us to understand things, we often "humanize" them, so that we can identify with them.

The bible says that god created man in his image. I am not a christian and I do not follow the bible at all, nor believe its' creation story, but rather my opinion is that man created god in his image.

the time when the bible was written, and when judaism was first started as well, men were dominant in society.

when the constitution of the USA was made, men were also mostly dominant.

It is no surprise, that in a world where men are dominant, that when religions are created, their dieties are personified with male attributes.

Now.. we have other issues.. because dieties dont' always "procreate" like animals. some gods/goddess' have been said to simply create new life.. while some of them actually had some kind of intercourse.

The whole issue gets confusing, and it really depends on whether you believe in a central diety who created everything. Being that I simply believe that if there is a Master creational force, it has no actual gender because I don't feel that it actually personally created anything at all. I feel personally that perhaps there is a force that put things into motion.. but i refuse to argue over whether or not it's male or female.

To me.. I think that it's not only a matter of opinion, but it's something that doesn't matter in the end. If there is a God... why does it matter if it's male or female?

Which brings up an interesting point... why is it so important that the idea of "God" be assigned a gender? Does it somehow make it acceptable for humans to then decide which gender should be dominant? I somehow think that this debate is slighty similar to the argument among people who feel that "jesus" was a certain ethnicity. Why does it matter what race or gender a religious icon is, if it's their words and actions that should actually matter?

Mind you, i'm not saying anyone is right or wrong for having opinions.. i'm just throwing more questions into the mix.. i'm curious about these things... as I study religion rather heavily.

*sits back and waits for more input*

[amberlaine]

Which brings up an interesting point... why is it so important that the idea of "God" be assigned
a gender? Does it somehow make it acceptable for humans to then decide which gender should
be dominant?

I'm glad you brought this up. A good friend of mine once said that when people argue over the gender of God, they are not really arguing about God at all, but rather, how they view gender roles. If people were to really talk about the nature of God, gender would be a laughable subject.

I thought that was a fabulous point, and I think you've hit it on the head, Lucidia. The notion of the gender of God is comepltey and totally beside the point.

[Celtic_Angel]

Though I have always refered to God as He, Him etc, I have to agree with Emerald Sky on this. God has no gender, yet is both genders too. He just is. I refer to God as He out of tradition and habit. I have never found a reason for me to change this and I think that God is probably ok with this. :)

[Emy]

Originally posted by amberlaine


Emy,

In your above post you imply that somehow we are more spititually evolved today and therefore better equipped to envision God in a form more closely related to whatever God actually is.

Do you think this is true? Do you think that today we have somehow come closer to the truth of the essence of the Divine? If that is so, then we do we place gender assignments on a being that transcends all earthly characteristics? Is there something inherent in economic, societal, and physical evolution that necessarily allows us to view Deity in more complete terms, or are we kidding ourselves?

I dont think we're any closer to the truth than people in "those times"....

Well, no I don't think we are that much closer today to the truth than people in those times... I just sort of thought that someone in those days might have thought something like that... that it was more convinient to just say that God is a man and therefor spare them all the questions that might have come if they where to say that God was transcendant, or that God had no gender...

Well I am feeling I can't really explain what I mean here =/ ... well anyways it is not exactly my opinion in the matter, I am not sure that I have formed one yet, it is just a thought, maybe someone thought something like that in those days... :)

Blessings

[amberlaine]

I don't know either, Emy, I just thought you may have had an opinion on the matter :p

[Emy]

Yeah, well I wish I had an opinion, but really it is such a complex matter that I can't really grasp it...

Anyways it can be rather fun to mindwrestle, so maybe one day I'll have formed my opinion in the matter. :)

Blessed be

[EasternPriest]

One of the problems we face when discussing "God" is that we have to attempt to discuss an infinite being in very finite terms. Our minds and languages have spatial limitations that are hard to overcome.
Is God a he, she, or he-she? When we cross the veil, we will know for sure. My tradition focuses on God the Father as the spirit force behind the creation of all that is good, and that the Mother influence is represented by the physical matter that creation is made of.
Ultimately, I think of God as above the need for gender identification. In the New Testament we are told, "The day will come when you will not worship God in either the temple or on this mountain, but in spirit and in truth."


Blessings......

[MistOfTheSea86]

I beileive hat God is whatever you may him out to be. Whether it be Buddha Or GOddess, Zues or Shiva. There sex shouldn't matter. Just my Two Cents8O

[Sarata]

The primal Cause, if there be one, Male or female? That leads me to a lot of questions. We are becoming more and more aware of a vast multi-verse out there. So is God/ess a local phenominon or a Universal Deity?
The human cultures that are polytheistic tend to believe that there are many Gods and Goddesses with one great Primal Cause who is neither male nor female. I hold this view also. I believe there is a Great Primal Cause. I'm unsure wether this Cause is the Evolving Universe manifesting as a single Sentient Awareness, or if this Primal Deity predates this current Universe.
I do know that evidence is pointing more and more toward the likelyhood of sentient Life existing in other places in this Universe. It's pretty likely that sexes we have not even concieved of are procreating happily all over. Even on this planet we have more than two sexes. There's asexual critters such as ameboes and bacteria. There are exceptions to general rules. Among Seahorses, the males complete the gestational process and give birth.
Somewhere out there are some furry blue spheres who firmly hold forth that Deity is the primary point in a dodecahedrinal (I have to have mispelled that one) unity. (Grin)

[mythril]

I also think that the divine is a combination of male and female energy, don't think the Divine has a certain form, u see what u wan't to.

[BrigitCayenne]

god dosen't have a gender he is both at the same time that is what i believe

[Happydog]

my two cents' worth:

I believe that the Divine is beyond our comprehension, basically. I know that Divinity is not, in the final analysis, divided into "male" or "female" but I relate much more easily to the Divine as a female than I do to the Divine as male.

I grew up in the Christian church and had some extremely negative experiences therein, and as a result I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of worshipping a male god.

Further, the spiritual experiences I have had when I began following the Pagan path involved the Divine revealing itself to me as female, and since these experiences were more powerful and direct than anything I had previously encountered, I got the impression that for me, at present, the path of encountering the Divine as female is right - FOR ME. I would not dare impose my beliefs on anyone else.

Now, those are my intellectual beliefs. In my heart, when I am in front of my altar praying or doing ritual, I am talking to Isis, She of 10,000 Names and Supreme Goddess, and that is the way I relate to Her, very personally. When I am involved in prayer or ritual I don't want to, and I can't, think in abstractions as above, because it dissipates my concentration and weakens the link that I feel with Her.

So I guess the answer is that intellectually I understand that the Divine is neither male nor female but inclusive of and beyond both categories. But in my heart, and in the here and now, I regard Isis as the Goddess.

[Myst]

Lucidia : "I think that in order for us to understand things, we often "humanize" them, so that we can identify with them."

EP : "One of the problems we face when discussing "God" is that we have to attempt to discuss an infinite being in very finite terms"

Right on. To me divinity is the All, the Life force that bounds us all together as kith and kin. You can speak with a facet of the All through Athena, Anubis, Kerridwen, or anyone else, if that suits you. But in the end I think that's only a facet of the real Energy that is, and only allows you to be closer to that one face that it may serve your purpose.

[Celeste]

Personally for me Spirit has no gender as that is a human trait which can lead to stereotypes... I believe that the spirit is just that ..Spirit but i believe that spirit incorporates both genders and that Spirit can have many representations that can be both male and female

I believe that the gods are representations of the male aspects of spirit and the godesses the female aspects

I personally would disagree with anyone who said that Spirit had one true gender as that could lead to the image that that particular gender is superior to the other and i believe that spirit wishes us to treat each other equally

Celeste

[Swanspirit]

said...... male and female ... then DEITY was male and female .........in the framework of biblical belief........seems to me .....no matter which pronoun was used.....
but not believing in ONE GOD / Goddess ...... I feel that as individuals they have gender............perhaps their manifestation of gender doesnt fit any of our definitions.........but for me.....my pantheon does not homogenise( interesting word that) into one ........ and Aphrodite is a female ...... and Jupiter is male ...... etc etc........
Love and light
Swannie

[Twilight Garden]

Just my simple thoughts... I believe that "God/dess" is completely without gender. Not male, female, nor both. I have to admit, I sometimes refer to it as "he" or "she" out of habit or something like that. I usually do refer to it as 'God' to be simple. (I don't call a cop a coppess.) But all in all, I don't believe it has any gender at all.
*LunarMist

PS: I didn't get to read each and every post in this thread before posting, so I hope I'm not drudging up something that has already been hashed out.

[Avena]

For me there is no supreme force or creator that has to be defined as either male or female. But there are many forces (call them deities, energies, spirits...) who are clearly parted into male "forces"(gods) and female "forces" (goddesses).

But if you only believe in one deity (or force, or whatever) who/which is completely sexless and neutral, then (this is my opinion) you shouldn't call it a) God or b) Goddess (even if you think these are just words), but find another, completely neutral title.

[amberlaine]

But if you only believe in one deity (or force, or whatever) who/which is completely sexless and neutral, then (this is my opinion) you shouldn't call it a) God or b) Goddess (even if you think these are just words), but find another, completely neutral title.

Why?

Words are nothing more than tools, and if those tools work for you, why bother finding another tool that may not work as smoothly or coherently as these?

God works perfectly well for me, and I don't see deity as having any gender. So what's the point in finding another word whenthat one sits just fine wth me? Is there someone else I"m supposed to be pleasing?

[PurpleRose]

I read somewhere that the word "God" is neither male nor female from the beginning... I find this interesting. I think we humans need to divide god into male and female, and that´s why we have the words "God" and "Goddess".

I believe that God (the Spirit) has no gender... Like our souls.

Maybe it´s one of those things: God is male/female, so men/women are more powerful.

[Avena]

Originally posted by amberlaine


Why?

Words are nothing more than tools, and if those tools work for you, why bother finding another tool that may not work as smoothly or coherently as these?

God works perfectly well for me, and I don't see deity as having any gender. So what's the point in finding another word whenthat one sits just fine wth me? Is there someone else I"m supposed to be pleasing?

Who am I to tell you which words you should use :T !
If you believe in the one "all", then of course it doesn't make any difference wether you say God, Goddess, Allah or Yahwe as long as the name/noun works for you and the "all" is listening ;)

But if you say God, doesn't that automatically make you think of something male? I just wonder, because for me it is very, very difficult not to make any image of what you call "God". You are right, it is just a word, but when you think of "GOD" being almighty, within everything, sexless, neutral and inconceivable perfect, then the word "God" as a description or title for this force seems to be (IMO) rather unsuitable. Just because it is worn out in its meaning, and has been used to describe a male deity ever since, and that for is far to restricting for the inconceivable neutral force of life.

But as I said, this is just my opinion, and the reason why it doesn't work for me (maybe I'm a lil pedant with all those god goddess words, but oh well....)

[Xander67]

to thine own self be true

my sipritual well being is important to me, and although I am on a very strange journey, one that has sometimes been horrifying, I have met some real special friends...

God, GODess, as Qbalina puts it, and I agree, it is jsut a term we use to describe as best we can relate it to our own being...

it is hard for us to immagine or even comprehend the notion of a genderless being let alone one with no form, no mass, just pure Love energy......

[Avena]

MM PurpleRose!

Originally posted by PurpleRose
I read somewhere that the word "God" is neither male nor female from the beginning... I find this interesting. I think we humans need to divide god into male and female, and that´s why we have the words "God" and "Goddess".


This is interesting indeed! Where did you read it? But if the term "God" is neither male nor female, why do we have the opposite term "Goddess"? Or is Goddess also neither male nor female?
:confused:

[Avena]

Originally posted by Xander67
it is hard for us to immagine or even comprehend the notion of a genderless being let alone one with no form, no mass, just pure Love energy......

Agreed! :thumbsup: But that's exactly the reason why I don't try to imagine such being and do use individual words as god and goddess, to part it into images I can imagine and understand. Maybe that's a lower step on the way to the full understanding of whatever's "above", but it works for me.

[amberlaine]

But if you say God, doesn't that automatically make you think of something male?

No, it doesn't. To me, it just denotes something almighty, transcendent, and beautiful. But, if that's what it makes *you* feel, then you shouldn't use the word. You should use what makes you the most comfortable.

[Twilight Garden]

Originally posted by amberlaine


No, it doesn't. To me, it just denotes something almighty, transcendent, and beautiful. But, if that's what it makes *you* feel, then you shouldn't use the word. You should use what makes you the most comfortable. Right on. :thumbsup:
I only use the word God in conversation to make things simple, rather than start a discussion on the topic. In writing I sometimes use the spelling "God/dess" so others have an idea of what I'm refering to. In my own personal mind and feelings I don't use a word at all.
:D Just my own practice. Not to be taken as: What I think others should do. :nyah:

[Myst]

I have God, Goddess, All.

If I'm talking about passionate, strong, masculine energy, I say God.

If I'm talking about motherly, mysterious, feminine energy, I say Goddess.

If I'm in the mood to I say All.

Sometimes I refer to "God" or "Gods", but to me they are All, and they exist within us and without, on this plane and others, everywhere. All is beyond gender, All is life energy, All flows as the wind that blows the leaves, the river that flows through a valley, the fire that burns us, the ground beneath us, the sun above us, and life around us.

(edited to ad : wait I already have a response in this thread, posted in July. All that too!)