Christian Wiccans?

[MystyPines]

Merry Meet!

I thought it would be interesting to find out what people know or what they think of "Christian Wiccans" or "Christian Witches"? Is there such a thing? Do they have Christian beliefs while practicing spellwork or do they somehow integrate their Christian beliefs into Wiccan beliefs or vice versa? It came up briefly in one of the other threads. Interested to hear what everyone's thoughts are?

Bright Blessings!

[Mairwen]

There is such a thing, yes. I've run into books and some information on the net ~ you might want to try doing a websearch.

[Emy]

Really? There is such a thing, one might think that it would include a conflict of interest... :)

MystyPines, let me know what you'll find if you decide to do a search of the topic out there on the web =)

Blessings

[Mairwen]

Arent' there some ChristianWiccans on the boards here?

[amberlaine]

*bristles up at the very idea*

Christian Witches--Sure, why not?

Christian Wiccans--No. Of course, there are plenty of folks who disagree with me, but I think the idea is absurd. You're either one religion or another. But not both.

I wrote an article on the concept for Mothersmagic which you can read here :
http://www.mothersmagic.net/witches/wicca/christianwicca.html

[Dagda Moon~Lily]

I can totally see the concept of Christian Wiccans.

The god from christianity, and the goddess of wiccans. Each has it's trinity. I would think that you can believe in both, though maybe not everything from the christian aspect....I would assume that is why one would turn to wicca...to complete a void. As far as wiccan, there are many traditions...if eclectic, then you just believe what you feel the most comfortable with. It could incorporate many religious beliefs from many different religions.

Christianity is the acceptance of God and Jesus. I have never heard any one say that to be christian, they had to believe in the bible as well.

So, I think it's possible to be both Christian and Wiccan. Especially if they are just starting the path. Ready for Wicca, but not quite ready to let go of everything they have believed up until then.

[Mairwen]

There's such a thing as Chrisitian Mysticism, as well, but I don't know that much about it.

[Yvonne Belisle]

How about asking Celtic_Angel her pantheon is the Christian pantheon her word view though not goddess oriented is more Druidic.

[Elaine]

I currently consider myself christian/wiccan.....and I'm sorry that my beliefs are absurd to you amberlaine....but that is the way I feel in my heart and who are you to tell me that I can't believe the way I do??? the reason I consider myself christian and no longer Catholic is because I'm tired of people telling me that the things in my heart are wrong....at the same time I still have those beliefs that I can't not believe....so I still hold on to those beliefs....one of the many reasons I chose wicca as a path for me is because it is a religion that believes there is no religion that is right or wrong....just right for them...and I understand if it is not right for you...and that's fine with me....but please don't tell me that I'm absurd for believing the way I do....you may not agree with it...but it's my choice!! Yes I have difficulties explaining my path to my husband...he says the same thing..."you're one or the other...you can't be both..." and I don't agree with that....I think that if it feels right to someone then that's what they should go with...why should I sit here...with an emptiness inside me, trying to figure out which I want to be....just because there are people that think it's absurd!!!??? I'd rather be true to myself, believe what I want to believe...and have the emptiness be filled than sit around, empty, like I have been since I was 13!!! I'm 22 now and I'm tired of feeling like that!!! so in my opinion to anyone who was unsure about this whole christian/wicca thing...it is possible...it just takes a little bit more studying than you'd have to do otherwise!! MW taught me that!! That's why I'm so glad I've found this place!! I'm sorry if I came off b*t**y.....but honestly...I just couldn't believe what I read.....with the large diversity of paths that are lurking in this community I wasn't expecting to see something that blunt and in my opinion disrespectful...there are many of us around here that are not just one thing...many of us are eclectec (sp?) ...I know I'm not the only one here...cuz I have talked to others about dealing with my husband!! I just thought this was an entire community of open minds!!! again I'm sorry for my bluntness and b*t**iness!! I hope none of you hold it against me!!

[gunner]

this is a potentially interesting thread though possibly controversial. i suggest we remember that one of the founding precepts of this community is respect for each other and our different paths and ways. dismissing other's thoughts with epithets such as "absurd" closes out the possibility of learning, one of the basic reasons this community was begun. we do not have to follow anyones ideas in lockstep as the cultists, both christian and other, but a courteous respect for others ideas will keep this community and its healthy spirit of inquiry alive and growing. thank you-all for the loan of an ear and mithras guide and guard you.

[amberlaine]

Elaine--

I'm sorry if I offended you. That wasn't the intent. However, I have to stand behind my conviction. I find the notion of trying to mesh Wicca with Christianity to be unrealistic and theologically impossible. *shrug*

The Wiccan religion teaches that Deity is immanent in creation, and immanent within the human self. As such, we already have a link to that energy to guide, shape, and enlighten us. In essence, we *are* the Goddess.

Then we look to Christianity, and we see a very different tnotion of coming to God. Jesus Christ says, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the father but through me." (John 14:6)

this idea lone, if we were to examine no other, proves inimcal to the foundations that wicca is built upon. The idea that we can only come to God through the Christ is rebuked by Wicca, for in Wicca, the very fact that we are alive gives us the ability to come to God on our own terms.

Christians accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal savior. This is what it means to be Christian. If you don't acept christ as your Lord and Savior, then you aren't christian. I dont know wht that makes you, but certainly not Christian. If you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior--how can you be Wiccan? We have no saviors in Wicca because we haven't the *need* for a savior. furthermore, even if we *did* need to be saved, we would have that ability within ourselves because the goddess is immanent within us. Its as simple as that. You either accept the need for a savior, and accept christ as that savior--or you don't. The fact is Christianity and Wicca are built upon diametrically opposed paradigms. You just can't have it both ways.

I guess what it really comes down to Elaine is, what do you believe? Perhaps you and I define Christians and Wiccans differently. Can you tell me what you perceive to be Christians and what you percieve to be Wiccans and then tell me how you fit the cross paradigm? I'm not attacking you, I'm genuinely asking, becuase I dont understand how it can be so.

Now, all this said, I believe one can accept tenets of Wicca and incorporate them into their Christian lives,and vice versa. In fact, I think people *should* do such things, as no one religion has got it quite right. But at their roots, the two religions are very different.

[sherry]

While I am not sure of the Christian -Wicca thing I do know for a fact the Christian Witch exists. Many are born with special gifts and family strength gets greater thru practice. I come from such a family and my Mother is the first I knew of then discovered that all of her family is like this. I have choosen to branch from the Christian part of it because I had difficulty understanding and believing that part of it.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Wiccan like christian is an umbrella term. Not all people that believe that Jesus Christ was the savior of mankind believe in the bible. The same holds true of Wiccans and the rede. It is quite possible to believe in the Christian God and believe that the Bible was written by humans in an effort to control his worship. I personally believe in their existance but I see them as part of a greater entity a nameless faceless being that encompasses the whole of all beliefs no matter how diametricly oppossed. The reality is none of us have all of the answers while we live. I believe that the powers that be show themselves to us in the form or forms that we can accept. This would mean that to me all images of god or the goddess are the right image because the appearence is for us not the powers that be. Hence Elaine's views and Celtic_Angel's views and yours and mine and everyone elses are the right views, they are the right views because they are the views that sang to our hearts and thus the powers that be will make them so.

[sherry]

Exactly, yup , you said it, could not have said it better!!!!!!

That is why it is called MY PATH, my family does not always agree with me and I do not with them. It is a matter of opinion and you know what they say about those!!

[bluecat]

I strongly beg to differ with those who would say there are no Christian-Wiccans, especially if they are using the weak argument that to be Wiccan you MUST be polytheistic. In Christianity you have a trinity to begin with, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost, and then you have the Mother of Christ, who while not recognized by mainstream Christianity as a Goddess, prayers are offered to their God in her name by many Christians.

If a Wiccan desires to have God as his or her God and Mary as the Goddess, So Be It. There is also the concept of the born and sacrificed Son of God and The Holy Ghost, who may not be blasphemed against. These may be seen as a Pantheon by someone who chooses that particular path.

To put someone's path in the dumper and say it cannot be is plain and simple BASHING, just because you don't happen to believe or happen to have enough of an open mind to accept the beliefs of others. We should accept the beliefs of others if we are to be taken seriously in our own beliefs and be accepted in those beliefs.

There is also the concept of SYNCRETISM, which is the active practice of two or more beliefs at the same time. I have written a short piece on this (I am not the final authority nor to I make myself to be as such.) The article is at http://www.bluecatsden.com/syncretism_html.htm .

I was very dismayed and somewhat crestfallen when I read that someone's personal belief was being treated in such a manner. Who are we to say what is or is not theologically impossible. Impossible is such a closed word that disallows growth, especially spiritual growth. Folks in Ivory Towers seem to lose what is being experienced and felt by their fellow human beings.

While opinions are fine and should be honored, they should not be made to sound like the difference between right and wrong. Saying that someone did not mean to incite or hurt someone with their words still does not stop the bruises of the soul or even in some cases, the flow of blood. Intolerance is intolerance.

So Be It

Blue

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by sherry
...It is a matter of opinion and you know what they say about those!!

They are beliefs or conclusions held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof?

[Emerald Sky]

Amberlaine wrote, We have no saviors in Wicca because we haven't the *need* for a savior. furthermore, even if we *did* need to be saved, we would have that ability within ourselves because the goddess is immanent within us. Its as simple as that. You either accept the need for a savior, and accept christ as that savior--or you don't. The fact is Christianity and Wicca are built upon diametrically opposed paradigms. You just can't have it both ways>>

It's as simple as that???!!! I didn't realize that Christianity was so cut and dried, Amberlaine.


The Wiccan religion teaches that Deity is immanent in creation, and immanent within the human self. As such, we already have a link to that energy to guide, shape, and enlighten us. In essence, we *are* the Goddess.

Have you ever read "Made in the likeness and image of God" ? Are you so sure that Christians don't believe that the Divine is immanent within them?


Then we look to Christianity, and we see a very different notion of coming to God. Jesus Christ says, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the father but through me." (John 14:6)

First of all, one passage plucked out of the bible being used as an explanation to the whole Christian religion is pretty bold imo. Could it be that possibly you're only seeing ONE way to interpret that particular passage?


Now, all this said, I believe one can accept tenets of Wicca and incorporate them into their Christian lives,and vice versa. In fact, I think people *should* do such things, as no one religion has got it quite right. But at their roots, the two religions are very different.

Hmmm? To me that sounds like being a Christian - Wiccan. ??? :confused:

Yes, I believe one can believe in both Christianity and Wicca. As Dagda said, especially those who are just beginning to follow this path and are coming from a Christian background.

Because it sounds absurd to you, Amberlaine, does not mean that it *IS* absurd. Perhaps you're showing your limited view and understanding. Perhaps you just haven't been able to grasp such a vast belief - ? Perhaps being both Christian and Wiccan is just beyond what you can understand - ? That really doesn't make it absurd. I would say it just shows us that *you* cannot understand it. I would think that if you really were genuinely asking how one could understand both things you wouldn't have attacked so quickly, you would have been asking with a loving heart. Usually when I want to truly learn something that someone else knows I keep my ears open and my mouth shut! Especially if I am not the expert on their religion. But that's just me.

[eaglewolf]

I am standing by my cappuccino comparison...

~ew

[LadyUndine]

Hello... I'm new, and thought I'd drop in. Caught the tail end of this thread and felt I needed to comment...

>> I find the notion of trying to mesh Wicca with Christianity
>> to be unrealistic and theologically impossible. *shrug*

To each their own - several here seem to have no difficulty with it at all. :)

>> The Wiccan religion teaches that Deity is immanent in
>> creation, and immanent within the human self. As such,
>> we already have a link to that energy to guide, shape,
>> and enlighten us. In essence, we *are* the Goddess.

The word "immanent", according to Merriam Webster, means, "remaining or operating within a domain of reality or realm of discourse : INHERENT; specifically : having existence or effect only within the mind or consciousness." I believe, personally, that the Goddess is certainly more than only within the mind. :) When I was Wiccan (some time ago I was Alexandrian Wiccan), I was taught that we were to encourage our personal link with the Divine... and that, while the Divine was, indeed within us, that it was not "us" entirely. In other words, there certainly was more to Goddess than just me. I don't believe Wicca has changed TOO much in the past few years. :)

>> Then we look to Christianity, and we see a very different
>> tnotion of coming to God. Jesus Christ says, "I am the
>> way, the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the
>> father but through me." (John 14:6)

True... doesn't say anything about how one gets to the Mother, though. :) However, Jesus *also* states that there are "many mansions in my Father's house" and several other gnostic statements. In fact, the more you study early Christianity and the Gnostic Christians and pre-Christian gnostic sects, the more you learn that what started out as a very mystical and esoteric belief system, has been thoroughly changed in recent (ie the past 1000) years into something very EXTROteric.

>> this idea lone, if we were to examine no other, proves
>> inimcal to the foundations that wicca is built upon. The
>> idea that we can only come to God through the Christ is
>> rebuked by Wicca, for in Wicca, the very fact that we are
>> alive gives us the ability to come to God on our own terms.

Only if you take just one quote. And as a wise man once said, you can prove ANYTHING if you use quotes out of the Bible out of context. One must, if one wishes to compare religions, look at the ENTIRE religion. And having studied both ancient and modern sects of Chrstianity, I would say that there is very little difference between Wicca (of the British Traditional variety at least) and some of the orthodox Christian beliefs (take Catholicism, for instance).

The major difference is, of course, in the type of worship... Christianity is a Piscean religion, whereas Wicca is very much an Aquarian one, and that difference is reflected in the way worship is achieved. Squares versus circles, sitting versus dancing, emoting versus listening. But these are minor, really... when one truly studies the depths of the meaning of religion, there is little difference between Christianity and Wicca (and most other religions)... since the general idea is to get in contact with God/dess[es].

>> Christians accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and
>> personal savior. This is what it means to be Christian.
>> If you don't acept christ as your Lord and Savior, then
>> you aren't christian.

I have heard many definitions of "Christian", just as I have heard many definitions of "pagan" and "Wiccan." To boil a religion down to one sentence is to castrate it. Saying that "accepting Jesus as your lord and savior" makes one a Christian, is akin to saying "Yelling I'm a Witch three times in the woods makes one a Third Degree Gardnerian." One needs to look a little closer than that. :)

>> I dont know wht that makes you, but certainly not
>> Christian.

It's generally considered bad debating form to tell others what they do and do not believe... since you aren't in their head.

>> If you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal
>> savior--how can you be Wiccan? We have no saviors
>> in Wicca because we haven't the *need* for a savior.

Perhaps *you* have no need - others may. To paraphrase, "who died and made you Goddess?" Wicca is, by its very nature, open to various beliefs. One need not "convert" to Wicca, because it is more properly a philosophy rather than a religion. IMO of course...

>> The fact is Christianity and Wicca are built upon
>> diametrically opposed paradigms. You just can't
>> have it both ways.

First off, Wicca claims to be open to all... so you can't go around claiming to be Wiccan and then telling others they aren't. *That* is being diametrically opposed. However... if you look at the true history of Christianity (there are plenty of books on the subject, starting with the Bible and Torah), you will quickly find that they aren't so different in approach, nor even in practice if you look at Christianity's beginnings.

Undine

[eaglewolf]

Welcome to Mysticwicks LadyUndine!

Not bad for your first post... a little short though.

;)

Please refrain from attacking other member's personal views, I know you not, and do not know your intent... but, at first glance, it appears to be a little on the abusive side.

You should fit right in around here...

~ew

[amberlaine]

Undine,

You made some excellent points that i shall certainly take under consideration. Overall, my mind hasn't changed about the idea of the dual religion thing (if one can be more than one religion, then I'm a Wiccan Christian buddhist Jew) but your arguments are persuasive, well thought out, and eloquent, which is a treat. you don't get that much these days.

Re: "nothing about how to get to the Mother"..... Touche ;) I bow to this point. :)

Re: "many mansions"...I was always intrigued by this verse. When I first read it, I interpreted it to mean, "There are many paths you may take to come to know the Lord. I am only one path." this seemed contradictory to me as it was opposed to Christ's assertion that He is the way, etc. I asked a christian friend about this, before telling her of my own interpretation, and she asserted the following:

"There are many doors to my Father's house--I am but One" means that the Kingdom of Heaven is infinte and eternal, and that each of us has a place within that Kingdom should we choose to live the Word of God and accept our place within the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus has a place within that kingdom, obviously, as the Son of God, but through accepting Christ as the Lord, by following Him and renouncing the ways of Satan, we too will have our own place within the Kingdom. We too can have the same luxuries of the Christ, should we choose to accept him as the Saviour.

Well, this is quite a different interpretation of your and my original interpreation of what this means. Is she right? *shrug* I dont know, but it does seem to follow. So, I dont know. But, something to consider.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by bluecat
ITo put someone's path in the dumper and say it cannot be is plain and simple BASHING, just because you don't happen to believe or happen to have enough of an open mind to accept the beliefs of others. We should accept the beliefs of others if we are to be taken seriously in our own beliefs and be accepted in those beliefs.

That's dead-on, Blue. I couldn't have said it better! I've had people tell me my Path isn't valid because of this or that. Who are they to judge?

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
I am standing by my cappuccino comparison...
~ew

I am standing by the cappuccino maker ...

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Overall, my mind hasn't changed about the idea of the dual religion thing (if one can be more than one religion, then I'm a Wiccan Christian buddhist Jew)

Why not? My Mr is a Gwyddon-Asatru. ;)

[amberlaine]

*chuckle*
I'm sure both Jews and Christians alike would stone me to death if I walked around calling myself that. *snort*

[MistOfTheSea86]

Amberlaine I completely agree with what you say up to a point.

First what I agree with.

1. To be Christian is to worship and believe god is the all mighty ruler of things. He created the earth and everything on it. To be Wiccan is to believe that the goddess is imanent and rules us in her power. Gives us sprirtual growth and acceptance. Acceptance in obedience of those in different faiths. With most CHristians, sorry to offend, it's there way or the high way. We except all, they only except god.
2. It is a contradictory in terms. God. Goddess. Holy. Evil. Most Christians find us to be evil, not that we are it is their opinion.
3. Christians are christians, the bottom line is you can't be both. Not fully anyway. Saying this I will move on to what I disagree with.

Disagree
1. Christian Wiccan. There are many who call themselves this, and we are noone to say they are wrong. In the Wiccan belief sysytem there is the god and goddess. They just worship the god. And some who find the Wiccan Religion think. If I worship the god. And there is the God and Goddess. Am I not Worshipping that religion? Do I just convert now? Or do I just continue to believe both. Both, would be the logical choice. People just can't throw down what they believe because something showed itself to question us. If that was the case we would be a race of neanderthauls. Is that how you spell it?

And lost but not least. I would like to give strength to those who classify themselves as Christian Wiccans. They have probably gotten more crap then alot of us. More rejection, more ridicule. We all should know how this feels. DO we really want to give bad, when we've made a vow to give good? Do we really want to reject when we are constantly being rejected. Do we not know how this feels. How they feel. We are meant to accept all, not reject others. Same goes for people sharing their opinions. We should not attack them for sharing what they believe. DIdn't we all ready go over this? I would like you all to stop screaming at Amberlaine for sharing her beliefs. And I would like Amberlaine to please try to find a way to tone down what you say. CAuse as you can see it did offend, even though it wasn't your intent.

Of course you go on. Not beileve me, reject what I am saying. Saying you have no idea what you are talking about. So why should we believe you. True most of what I am saying is from what I heard from people, from Christians. From Wiccans. HOw could that be right? BUt I ask you to interpert what I am saying, and please don't be one sided. I am sorry if I offend also. PLease try to be more open minded to ideas.
Because as you can see here. YOur really aren't no matter how much you tell yourself that you are.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Why for a long time I was both Catholic and Jewish. Try reconciling those 2 with a self rightous Catholic Grandmother and a just shy of orthidox Jewish Grandmother! Each telling you what you were suposed to think! A battle for my soul in their eyes a tug o war in mine. And yes you can reconcile the two but you have to reduce the Catholic to just Christian. Main problem was I didn't feel right in either choice.

[IsisMoon]

Another aspect of the trilogy which sits well with some is that the Father/Son/Holy Spirit of God blends quite easily with the Goddess aspects of Virgin Mary/Mother Mary/Mary Queen of Heaven.

I consider myself multidenominational and while I find it is difficult to explain my beliefs or which category I fit into I am comfortable with where I am at the moment.

Blessings
IsisMoon
)O(

[Yvonne Belisle]

There are also wiccans that only worship the goddess and completely ignore the male aspect. I do not believe that makes them any less wiccan. What we are constantly forgeting is that this is a blanket term there are just as many types of wiccans as there are christians.
There is also bigotry to be found in both groups. That is a sad and unfortunite fact of life. It becomes a true tragedy when blanket statements are then applied because of individuals. The reality is that there are groups that fall under the term pagan that do sacrifices. Should all pagans then be thought to do this? The reality is there are christian groups out there that believe that their way is the only way and all others will burn in hell. Should all christians then be judged by this? I believe that the answer is no!
In each arguement I have heard good points and bad points. The bad not being bad because I disagree with them but bad in the way that they were presented. The sad reality is that when information is presented in a certain manner we tend to react to it. These reactions can be positive or negitive and the reaction will vary by the group or individual that is listening.
If I as a white woman walked into a KKK meeting and said "dumb ******" I would be aplauded yet that same phrase in Harlem would probably get me killed. I used that esample because it is very dramatic my own beliefs are such that should I hear that word from one of my children it rates a trip to the bathroom for the soap. I find the conotations of the word in modern usage vulger. The words we use here are just as volitile to some people and I can bet money that if I started a comment here with that phrase it would offend and my intent would be lost. I would however have your attention so I beg of you all to think about your choice of words before you post them.
Thank-you.

[Rævyn Cigány]

Okay, I'm probably cutting my own throat here, but has it ever occured to any of you that the Gods don't give a FIG what religion you are as long as you're a good person?! I agree with Bluecat, it is entirely possible to be both Christian and Wiccan, cuz "newsflash" people, we all look to the same ONE...we're just calling Him/Her/Them/WHATEVER by different names! Since when did we practise such intolerance?!!!!

looking for the bandages to wrap around my cut throat

Rævyn )0(

[BearDancing]

I would not call myself Christian/Wiccan, I have been studing, learning on a healing path for 12 yrs now and have learned alot from many religiions. What fits for me from each is what I believe. Jesus Christ is one of my mentors. I believe that he acheived in his lifetime a concsiousness that many strive for. The bible and the teachings are interpretations, I feel that if you have an open mind/heart and are coming from LOVE the potential for learning and growing is insermountable from all religions. If it does not feel right in your heart don't do it, if it feels good go for it and do not let anyone elses opion or interpretation sway your own inner knowings. (as long as you do not purposely hurt others) It is a process in learning to trust your own inner guidance for we are all here to learn our own different lessons and hopefully raise our level of consciousness.

We all have had our experiences with Christianity in this life time or past lives, there are some very close minded interpretations in organized older Christian religions......there is also some very interesting interpretations of the bible from open minded/ love based individuals with different levels of consciousness. As I am sure this holds true for Wicca.

I can not quote from the bible (I guess I could if I felt like looking it up) Jesus used to always go out alone into nature, what better way to meditate or center yourself, or be ONE with the Universe. I believe all answers past and present are available if we are still enough, open minded enough to recieve and trust in our own abilities. I have many goals, one of them is to reach the level of consciousness that Jesus Christ (and others) attained. I believe a major reason for Jesus Christ (and others of like consciousness) is to be an example as to a highter level consciousness that is attainable....for that reason I would classify Jesus as a saviour.....to know that I too am capable of hands on healing, communicating with nature /all of the Universe, making water turn into wine (you many or may not call that magic) I call it possibilities that are open to all who believe in themselves.


Our own personal level of concsiousness/past and present
(lives) life experiences are all part of how we interpret information. This is part of how I feel today... this is how I am interpreting in this moment with the level of consciousness that I have mastered so far.

Love and Respect to all.....FairieSpirit

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by IsisMoon
Another aspect of the trilogy which sits well with some is that the Father/Son/Holy Spirit of God blends quite easily with the Goddess aspects of Virgin Mary/Mother Mary/Mary Queen of Heaven.

I have a very dear friend who follows the Virgin Mary/Mother Mary/ Mary Queen of Heaven precept. She considers herself to be a Catholic Wiccan. I also have a Wiccan friend in the Anglican Church (in Ontario).

[Tigerwallah]

From what I know about the Pagan trinity, it was the Father, the mother and the son/daughter. So, just observing the original trinity, using Yahweh/Jahovah as the Father, well, it's far from an impossibility. I don't believe that the mother was ever completely ruled out in the New Testament. Mary was that mother, in fact, I happen to believe that Mary and Jesus are incarnations of Isis and Horus. Look at how Mary is worshipped. She is worshipped as a goddess, but doesn't have the label.

With that said, Christians are those who follow Christ/Jesus. So, who said that Yahweh's insecurities from the old testament need to follow over to Christianity? I think that he admits to not being whole as a male deity by the mere pressence of Mary. My personal beliefs discount Yahweh's existence as fictional, but to those who believe, he is very real. Could I believe in Yahweh and still be a Pagan? From the old testament, probably not. From Jesus' teachings, sure.

[Elaine]

thanks to all who have posted so far...you have all given me a lot of help ....it will be much easier to talk to my husband about all of this now!!

amberlaine- I do not have a problem with your belief...you are not the first I've come across to have that belief! my problem lies with the way you presented your beliefs.....if you want to ask a question of me...please do so...but do not cut me...or any of us, down for what we believe in...I am not sure what relgion you are but you must keep in mind that as a pagan everyone is subject to descrimanation....even you! There is no reason for us to throw it around between ourselves!! now to answer your question...first of all, I do not practice rituals at all yet...I do not feel ready for something like that....I am studying on a daily basis and say a quick prayer to my wiccan Goddess and my christian God every morning before I go to bed! I feel that, for me, it would be disrespectful to take that step so early in my study! One of my main problems lately has been speaking to my husband about my path....he believes as you do and it is hard for me to explain myself...I need more study before I can put into words what is in my heart...

Rævyn Cigány- I agree 100% ....I don't know why you would think saying that would be cutting your throat! That is why everyone has different beliefs! If it mattered to the gods what religion in particular we are there wouldn't be different ones...we would all be the same one....and if you didn't believe that way...you would be athiest....(not saying athiests are bad....I'm just trying to make my point and I'm not sure how to word it cuz it's 2:20 am and I am EXTREMELY tired!!)

about the Jewish/Christian thing....I work with someone that was born into that situation and raised on both...it was left up to him to decide his path....he identifies himself as both.....(we don't speak much about religion...so I don't know any more about it...or how he practices currently) who are we to tell him he's wrong just because we don't understand it....if it's right for him...then it's right!! Everyone has a path that is for them....I don't like people telling me that it can't work...and I would never tell him that!!

I have a question for you amberlaine....if you are wiccan...(again i'm not sure if you are or not....if not then disregard my question) but if you are...I thought that one of the aspects of it was believing that your path is not the right way for all...but right for you, and that's what matters ....wiccans are to teach when questions are asked...and not force our beliefs on others!! if you frown upon christian wiccans as much as it seems you do, how can you consider yourself wiccan? I don't understand how you can believe that my religious beliefs are wrong and still adhere to the beliefs of a wiccan!! someone please correct me if I'm wrong on these points!! I hope that my question did not come off as rude or with sarcastic intent...believe me it wasn't meant that way...I am honestly curious...I'm not sure if I am mistaken or if I really do have a valid question here!!

[Lavender]

It seems that the term christian should be clarified a bit more. I see the difference of opinion seems to come from what we/you define as christians. Catholics consider themselves as christians but the beliefs are different from those of a born again christian. Born again christians don't usually consider catholics as christians...because the fact that they consider the mother holy and that would be considered worshiping false idols. There are other differences too but I won't go into that here. Amberlaine's definition of a christian falls into a born again christian. Yes, according to them, it is that simple. BA christians believe that if you believe christ is the son of god, you can go to heaven...no matter what good deeds you did nor did not do, no matter what sins you might have committed. John 3:16 is the cornerstone bible verse for the born again christians. "For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life." By this, I guess you can have christian wiccans.

[Credence]

It all comes down to this one saying

Just because you dont understand it, doesnt mean there isnt a reason behind it

:)

[~Feyheart~]

Merry Meet All,
I am a member of a wonderful community and the members do not condemn me because I'm still part of "mainstream" religion.
They are wonderful people!!! I am a beginner on the path and I
have chosen to be Eclectic Solitary.Even our manager says Jesus
was a good prophet. So yes, I believe that Christians and Wiccans can co-exsist! I just do not preach in our site, mainly because it is not the way I was raised. I cannot do so.
Thanks
~Feyheart~

[Semele]

Interesting topic.... if a little touchy! We all have different terms to identify with what we believe and none of them are wrong. I think, personally, that the world is entirely too hung up on titles...relegious or otherwise. I don't feel that it was the intention of Christ, budda, or any other "saviors" to create organised religion. It was ordinary folks like you and I who created religion out of the teachings they freely offered. I think these were people who recieved the answer from thier Gods and just wanted to share some of the love and warmth they felt and it somehow got twisted in the delivery. I am sure they would be/ are a little saddened by some of the things done in their names. "God hates fags!!" I think to achieve true spiritual fullfillment we need to live by the examples they set forth, not necessarily by what others tell us they stand for.

Thats my take on the topic. Of course it may differ greatly from many of you. That doesn't bother me and I hope it doesn't bother you. I don't think any of our members were pointing fingers and saying this is wrong. Only stating why something doesn't sound right for them. Just because Christian/Wicca is a term that sounds confusing to Amberlaine doesn't mean it isn't possible for others to grasp it and embrace it. I also don't feel she mis-spoke or tried to insult anyone. If we all hold true to our hearts the basic core concept of our own spirituality I think we will find much tolorance for others. This is a great community and I am, for one, very proud to be a part of it. Divercity defines even us.

Semele

[Tigerwallah]

Semele, I copletely agree with you. That is a very wise observation.

I also agree on the point about Amberlaine. I'm not really sure what is going on, but each one of the folks in this thread, to me, is very respectful, and just arguing their own point of view. Which we could agree with, or disagree with. I don't really see anything I would truly consider bashing. There is always arguments when the topic of religion arises. Our community is in no danger of the St. Bartholomews Masacre, however. We are all open minded, even when arguing with eachother.

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
How about asking Celtic_Angel her pantheon is the Christian pantheon her word view though not goddess oriented is more Druidic.

Hmmm...I appreciate the Druids constant search for knowledge and their connection with nature. I hold their way of life in high regard. I'm am very Christian though and I have a problem with the blending or Wicca and Christianity. It is just not right for me. For others, I believe that that is their perogative.

"Let no one be found among you who sacrafices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." -Deuteronomy 18:10-11

As a believer in the Holy Bible, it is a personal taboo for me to personally mix with these things and I use what I may find from other paths accordingly. I have found that certain aspects of other paths are commendable and I pray upon them before making them a part of my own life.

I hope that makes sense. :D

[Tigerwallah]

Celtic Angel, Do you need to believe in the Bible to be a Christian? Wouldn't belief in Christ make one a Christian? Some fundamentalist religions would take everything the Bible says as law, but other Christian religions take the Bible with a grain of salt. Again I must question if it is truly the word of Yahweh, or the word of those passing the stories along and much later writing them down. This is not me being anti-Bible as a Pagan, but the same question I was asking as a Roman Catholic child attending St. Bartholomew's grade school in the 8th grade. At that time I knew nothing about the existance of another religion, and was only suspicious that other gods/goddesses existed before Yahweh. Of course, I was, then, considered a heretic. Being brought up Catholic, I did not even know of the existance of Pagans or that a thing called Wicca even existed. I just had a thought, I'm going to look up Christian in Mirriam Webster. Maybe the great god of refference can shed some light on this question.

[Tigerwallah]

Well, I got my answer. You are indeed correct CA. According to Mirriam Webster Christianity - first appeared in the 14th Century, the word, and means - "The religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies.

[Celtic_Angel]

Tigerwallah,

Not being able to speak for other Christians or for God, I can only answer that for myself. Belief in the Bible is not a must for me, nor is anything else. I choose to belief in the Bible because I feel that it is right for me and I believe that it offers my a guide book to my faith. It is the same for why I worship God. It is simply right for me. As for belief in Jesus being the definition for Christianity, for me it goes a little farther. You can believe that He was the son of God, without choosing to worship Him. So no, believing in the Bible isn't what makes me chrisian.

When I have asked other christians why is that they believe, many of their answers have saddened me. The normal response starts out with, "The Bible says..." or something along that line. Very rarely do you hear, "Because something in me tells me that this is right." or "Because I do." I think too many christians perhaps rely on what the Bible says too much and don't bother to pray over what they read and question it for themselves. So although they may believe in the Bible, they may not truly believe and may only be christians in name alone.

I do not think there is an exact recipe for the masses, it is something that each person has to argue with themselves. I hope I answered your question. :D With some of these it can be hard to find the right words. So, let me know if that makes sense.

C_A

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Well, I got my answer. You are indeed correct CA. According to Mirriam Webster Christianity - first appeared in the 14th Century, the word, and means - "The religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies.


I replied before I received this. Where did you find it? I would like to read it. Maybe I was wrong and that there is a recipe for the masses. :)

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Wouldn't belief in Christ make one a Christian?

Know. I'm a Pagan, and I know and trust that Jesus existed ~ and I accept that he was a fine teacher with a beautiful message. However, I feel that that message has been corrupted by the populace over time. Does my belief that Christ existed make me a Christian? Of course not ~ no more than going into a garage would make me a car.

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Know. I'm a Pagan, and I know and trust that Jesus existed ~ and I accept that he was a fine teacher with a beautiful message. However, I feel that that message has been corrupted by the populace over time. Does my belief that Christ existed make me a Christian? Of course not ~ no more than going into a garage would make me a car.



8O
The Car - ROTFL!!! Mairwen, I should have elaborated. I meant in the case of those wanting to call themselves Christian Wiccans. I believe that Christ is an incarnation of the Egyptian God Horus, but do not consider myself to be a Christian. I just meant if that was what one wanted to call themselves wouldn't worshipping Christ be enough to allow one to take the label of Christian?

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Celtic_Angel


I replied before I received this. Where did you find it? I would like to read it. Maybe I was wrong and that there is a recipe for the masses. :)

I got it from the AOL dictionary, but it is the same definition from the Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary - it can be found online if you don't have AOL at Merriam Webster Online.

[Masquerader8]

This may be a bit of a rambling, so be for warned...but I can't seem to understand the compcet of a Cristian Wiccan or even a Christian Pagen. To me the theology is so removed that I would have a hard time trying to be both. So I feel I must pose this question, how does one believe both that they are one with the Divine and that the Divine is above and seprate from them? I come from a Cristian family that is constantly trying to understand my choise to walk a different path and I know that a lot of our problems come from the simple fact that we have different frames of refrence as to what is, how can one person view the whole of entirety and the depth of their being from these very different vantages? I don't know if I am intruding, as I do not want to set on toes, but if this could possibly be clarifed for me? I know the path I walk, know that each has to choose their own path, but still am unsure how the Christian path and that of any Pagan faith would ever intersset. Perhaps with these answers I might be better able to bridge the gap I find between the theology that I have chosen and the path my family walks.
Misunderstandingly yours,
The Impish Elf:elf: :elf:

[Rævyn Cigány]

I thought I would share this link with you...it is of a pagan order that, I feel, succesfully combines paganism and Christianity (the even belong to a sitering called Pagans for Christ). Their insight is most staggering...

Ordo Arcanorum Gradalis (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2310/)

It may answer some questions, it may only cause more...

Blessed be!

Rae )0(

[Elaine]

Dria El posted this in the "I need help" thread...it helped answer questions for me....maybe it'll do the same for others...thanks again Dria El!!!:)


Christian Witch
by Aurora Starr

Christian Witch
(my personal decisions and path)
First of all you should know that when I came out as a Christian witch I was mocked and cast away by both Christians and Pagans! It is not an easy life.

You should also know that my path, my values, my beliefs they are constantly changing! So what I believe today may have evolved into something new by tomorrow! Keep that in mind.

Also, if you are thinking about combining these two religions as I have done, you should know that you are free to choose what you believe. You do not necessarily have to believe as I do. That is why when asked about my religion I always say "Pagan," because I am very eclectic and borrow from many different religions.

I celebrate both Christian holidays and the Pagan sabbats. I believe that the one true way to live is simple; abide the rede, the three fold law, keep close to the workings of Karma and the universal mother Earth, and every decision you make, make it with a pure heart. That is my faith in a nutshell!

I do believe in the Christian God. As of currently I am working out a few concepts or theories on this particular sanction of my belief system. Here are those concepts or ideas.

Concept One: There is only one God. This is the supreme power of all things. It is both male and female, all races, all religions, or it is none. This theory is based simply on this, If God is God off all people and things how can he be a white man? How could he be a black woman? He is the God of all races so he must be all races or none in my opinion.

Concept Two: There is only one God, but there are many different faces of God. Much like the Hindu, this concept is based on the fact the God has many faces and each face is God/dess of a particular thing. There is still only one supreme being but several ways to relate to that being.

Concept Three: There is a multitude of Gods and Goddesses. In Genesis in the bible it is said that God made man in his own image. If so then why are women and men anatomically different? Are we not both in the image of God? Also on this one I will refer to the ten Commandments. God says, "Ye shall have no other God above me." Does this not lead us to believe that there are other gods? And if there are other gods then there must be female deities as well, don't you think? So I kind of take this concept as my belief right now. For me, it is kind of like in Greek Mythology, Zeus was the head honcho. He was always prayed to first, respected the most, feared the most, but after that the people were free to worship the other Gods. Maybe that is what God meant by that commandment.

Another aspect that people say is a sin and in the bible is Homosexuality. First of all I do not believe this to be in the bible. I believe God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra (please excuse my spelling) because the city was wicked. They were wicked because they raped! It never says they were wicked because they were gay, that is just how it seems to be interrupted by most people.

I also believe in Satan, something Pagans do not usually believe in. I won't go as far to say that I believe there is an actual entity called Satan, but I know there is definitely a darker force out there. There is something where no good comes from. I'm not sure why I believe this so strongly, maybe it is just because I was raised in Christianity? I'm not sure, but today I know that I believe it very much.

Another major belief that I hold very near to my heart is this, It is NOT okay to harass or bash someone for their religious beliefs! This is absolutely uncalled for. You never put someone down because they disagree with you! Freedom of religion, means every religion. It applies to everyone! If a Christian tells you Jesus loves you, don't start a fight just say thank you. Now on the other hand, if a Christian tells you that you are satanic and going to hell, and they just will not leave you alone, that is harassment. Do not take it laying down! Don't go down to their level, but go through the proper channels so you do not have to deal with that anymore!

This is not an easy decision to make. I have spent the last six or so years bouncing back in forth between Christianity and Paganism. For me, I feel like this is the answer. I have finally found some peace! I wish you all well on your spiritual journey and blessed be!

http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/Aurora/

[Apotheosis]

Wow. This is great. Everyone pulling punches because you don't want to 'offend' anyone. You can't have an actual debate if everyone is so conciliatory, imho.

Can you have a Christian Wiccan/Christian Witch?

As Wicca is comprised basically of whatever the heck someone feels like at the time, it can work from this side. We can argue from the perspective of what particular people felt like at particular times, i.e. Gardner or Farrar, etc., but that would be the most pointless thing we could do, I feel.

From the Christian side...

There are multiple completely sound theological arguments for why you cannot be a Christian Wiccan/Witch. Some have been presented already, I can think of a few more myself. I'm going to, for the moment, avoid them entirely, as that is bound to get bogged down in the details.

If we want to discuss THEOLOGY ("The study of the nature of God and religious truth"), then we have to accept that Christianity means more than just accepting Jesus Christ as a personal savior. Otherwise, we could all invent our own "personal Christianity", and it would be about as homogeneous as a bowl of Lucky Charms. We all know what Christianity *is*. It is a diverse tradition based on the Bible and lasting the last 2 millenia. It has lots of dogma, and beliefs, and rituals, and stuff.
If you would like to postulate that instead Christianity is something else, something personal, then this entire thread is entirely pointless, as then we can all just make up what we want to Worship via Salad Bar Theology ("Pick and Choose"), and Christianity means nothing at all - in my Christianity Jesus is Blue, in yours he is Pink, in theirs SHE is a small Golden Retriever.

If you want to call it Christian, then you are implicitly accepting what Christian is. If you want to do Wicca with the involvement of Jesus, go for it. But thats hardly something to be included as a part of the definition of what it is to be Christian.

This isn't my personal belief, this is common sense.

Personally, I say this to the Christian Pagans: Do whatever the heck you want to do. Don't listen to the critics who would drag you down, but don't ignore common sense. For the love of Eris, don't be at all shocked when you find out the 'other' Christians think you're a loon. But, if you find a Pagan whose giving you a hard time, thats probably all BS posturing. Ignore them completely.

[amberlaine]

As Wicca is comprised basically of whatever the heck someone feels like at the time, it can work from this side. We can argue from the perspective of what particular people felt like at particular times, i.e. Gardner or Farrar, etc., but that would be the most pointless thing we could do, I feel.

Oh, God. This kind of thinking, rampant though it certainly is, will be the downfall of the religion. This just isn't the case. There certainly are ideologicies that fall otuside of the religion of Wicca--and the acceptance of the CHrist as personal savior is one of them. To believe in the necesstiy for a personal savior *does* fall outside the realm of Wicca. That's outside *our* thology, and dogma. (Which, *gasp* Yes, Wicca actually has!)


If you want to call it Christian, then you are implicitly accepting what Christian is. If you want to do Wicca with the involvement of Jesus, go for it. But thats hardly something to be included as a part of the definition of what it is to be Christian.

..or, consequently, what it is to be Wiccan, too.

Some people have been making arguments based on "Why can't I believe this AND this." To be honest with you, it isn't a matter of belief--like Apotheosis says, this is a matter of theology, and the theological basis for Christianity and Wicca don't mix. It's like oil and water. But there are principles wihtin each religion that go together just fine. NObody is saying that you can't beleive in pricnicples held by both Wiccans and Christians. I do--Hell, I think most pagans probably do. But to call oneself Christian-Wiccan is to demean both faiths, because essentially it says, "I dont' care what the actual theology of these religions is, I can do whatever I Want." and that's insulting. ITs like calling yourself a Republican Democrat. Can you hold principles from both parties? Yes--that doesn't mak eyou both.

I think most people who think they are CHristian Wiccan are *actually* Gnostic CHristians--but they just dont what what Gnosticism is, or that it even exists. Every argument I"ve heard so far falls into the category of Gnosticism (or just plain confusion).

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine

I think most people who think they are CHristian Wiccan are *actually* Gnostic CHristians--but they just dont what what Gnosticism is, or that it even exists. Every argument I"ve heard so far falls into the category of Gnosticism (or just plain confusion).

With that being *probably* true when looking at it from a theological standpoint. To say that a person cannot Know or Believe (whatever the case may be) whatever they want from a Personal or Spiritual standpoint is..well...very cocky. (I cant think of a better word right now.)

If I told everyone what I believe I would have several that might say...YOURE WRONG. Or, nope, THATS WRONG. Or, maybe...you are doing it the WRONG way.

Fine.

Im wrong.

I'll choose to be wrong for the rest of my lives I am sure. Thanks for clearing it up. :p

[amberlaine]

Itsnot a matter o being right or wrong. Its a matter of pinpointing the theology that embraces your belief system without you having to make all of these "changes".

Before I was Wiccan, I was Christian. I had all these beliefs that existed outside of CHristianity, and I made a lot of "changes" to the religion I belonged to in order for that religion to fit my personal paradigm. When I discovered Wicca, I found that my religion was already "out there" I just didnt know it yet.

That's what I 'm saying. Gnosticism already exists--the paradigm for the ideologies that I have seen expressed here already have a name. Thats my point--not that x, y, and z people are "wrong". Religious convictions are never "wrong". But there is a difference between theology and religious convictions. And I'm talking theology.

I'm always talking theology. ITs this goddamn book. I cant escape it.

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Itsnot a matter o being right or wrong. Its a matter of pinpointing the theology that embraces your belief system without you having to make all of these "changes".

Before I was Wiccan, I was Christian. I had all these beliefs that existed outside of CHristianity, and I made a lot of "changes" to the religion I belonged to in order for that religion to fit my personal paradigm. When I discovered Wicca, I found that my religion was already "out there" I just didnt know it yet.

That's what I 'm saying. Gnosticism already exists--the paradigm for the ideologies that I have seen expressed here already have a name. Thats my point--not that x, y, and z people are "wrong". Religious convictions are never "wrong". But there is a difference between theology and religious convictions. And I'm talking theology.

I'm always talking theology. ITs this goddamn book. I cant escape it.

And as I said...talking theology...you are correct.

I am stating my opinion on matters of ones Personal beliefs. I would never let a book have control over my life. I understand that some do. That is wonderful. (And I am not being sarcastic.) Some people mix Christianity and Wicca and it just becomes a Theological mess. (:p) but personally...to that person...on the inside...its not a mess at all. In fact, its probably quite beautiful.

[amberlaine]

I would never let a book have control over my life.

Oh yes you would if you were writing it, and you were sick of it, and you had a feeling you were going to be doing an assload of writing in the next few months to make your deadline.

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine


Oh yes you would if you were writing it, and you were sick of it, and you had a feeling you were going to be doing an assload of writing in the next few months to make your deadline.

:p Ah, youre book.....

I thought we were talking of another book. :D

[amberlaine]

There are no other books.

[mol]

Originally posted by amberlaine
There are no other books.

Ah...poor thing...finish it already. Damn.

*ducks froms flying objects*

[Yvonne Belisle]

Personally I have my own religion and don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks. It's mine it works for me and feels right for me and that is all that matters to me. So to me the entire arguement is a moot point. We all have our beliefs and unless you are closing your mind or hung up on labels then it really doesn't matter if it's a blending of this and that. By the way in the bible god admited there were other gods he just happened to command that you worship none above him. Tends to be forgotten in light of a lot of other things the book has to say. It also opens a whole new can of worms.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Personally I have my own religion and don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks. It's mine it works for me and feels right for me and that is all that matters to me. So to me the entire arguement is a moot point. We all have our beliefs and unless you are closing your mind or hung up on labels then it really doesn't matter if it's a blending of this and that. By the way in the bible god admited there were other gods he just happened to command that you worship none above him. Tends to be forgotten in light of a lot of other things the book has to say. It also opens a whole new can of worms.

About Cosmology ....

Yvonne is so right about her can of worms. But there is more, like this:


Genesis 1:26 - The [Elohim] said, "Let us
make humanity in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild beasts and all the reptiles that crawl upon the earth."


Elohim is a plural word, including male and female, and should properly be translated "Gods" or perhaps "Pantheon."

That is how I see it. And I am one of the Agnostics who STRONGLY doubts the presence of any Deity, but respects another's belief in a God or Goddess. Respect for others being the key thing. If I were to choose to be close minded, I could just as easily say that you are all wrong that there are no Gods or Goddesses, but I would be wrong. It is just my belief that accepts the Universe as a living being which EVERYTHING is an integral and IMPORTANT part. This extends to anything bad, evil, stupid, ignorant, or just plain disagreeable as well any anything and everything which could be construed as good, loving, kind, or just plain agreeable.

Before you say that I am just hedgeing my bet by saying I doubt there is a God, I have publicly rejected the Christian God and all others, but informed my audience that it was my own PERSONAL choice to not follow their God and had nothing to do with their own intelligence.

Enough for now; I am really growing tired of this.

Blue :rolleyes:

[Credence]

Even the wildest story or folklore has SOME truth to it :)

anyone ever seen the movie Dogma?
they make a good point in that movie

'It doesnt matter what you have faith in, its just that you HAVE faith'

Its a great movie actually, if you havent seen it watch it, its funny and brings up alot of interesting (yet non-bashful) things about the catholic, and any other religion that worhships God/Jesus/The Bible

[Rævyn Cigány]

I just KNEW I loved that movie for a reason! Bravo Credence!

BB

Rae )0(

[amberlaine]

Elohim is a plural word, including male and female, and should properly be translated "Gods" or perhaps "Pantheon."

We don't have a word in English that translates Elohim. According to Qabala, it should be translated as the concept of G!D as described elsewhere--neither feminine or masculine, but both and neither. Ain Soph is encompassing of all that is and will be, and that is why Elohim is a masculine singular root with a feminine plural ending. It covers all its bases.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by amberlaine


We don't have a word in English that translates Elohim. According to Qabala, it should be translated as the concept of G!D as described elsewhere--neither feminine or masculine, but both and neither. Ain Soph is encompassing of all that is and will be, and that is why Elohim is a masculine singular root with a feminine plural ending. It covers all its bases.

Yup, I knew you would bite that and not see the rest.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Oh, God. This kind of thinking, rampant though it certainly is, will be the downfall of the religion. This just isn't the case. There certainly are ideologicies that fall otuside of the religion of Wicca--and the acceptance of the CHrist as personal savior is one of them. To believe in the necesstiy for a personal savior *does* fall outside the realm of Wicca. That's outside *our* thology, and dogma. (Which, *gasp* Yes, Wicca actually has!)


I was perhaps unfair. I meerly intended to demonstrate how the inclusion - even dominance - of 'ecclectic Wicca' in the wide world of Wiccanism is this exact same problem. Ask a dozen Wiccans about theology and dogma, and you'll get at least 10 different answers. Thats not a religion. Thats a whole bunch of different 'faiths'.

Having never ever in my entire life met anyone who was other than an 'eccectic Wiccan', I made a generalization. Apologies to all those who I completely disregarded. How astonishingly narrow minded of me.




I think most people who think they are CHristian Wiccan are *actually* Gnostic CHristians--but they just dont what what Gnosticism is, or that it even exists. Every argument I"ve heard so far falls into the category of Gnosticism (or just plain confusion).

I think you have a very good point here. Well spoken. I wish I'd thought of it myself.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Credence
Even the wildest story or folklore has SOME truth to it :)

anyone ever seen the movie Dogma?
they make a good point in that movie

'It doesnt matter what you have faith in, its just that you HAVE faith'


If not for Mallrats, Dogma would be the worst of the Kevin Smith films. While still funny, it beats you in the head with its exposition.

I think a more relevant point is found in this quote:

("He" being Jesus Christ)

BETHANY
How does He feel now?

RUFUS
He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, but especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.

BETHANY
Having beliefs isn't good?

RUFUS
I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant. That was one thing the Man hated - still life. He wanted everyone to be as enthralled with living as He was.

[amberlaine]

Yup, I knew you would bite that and not see the rest

I saw the rest Blue, but you didn't say "I interpret the word to mean..." you said "It should prpperly be translated..." and it shouldn't be translated that. That's not a "proper" translation at all.

Apotheosis:

I understnad the point you were getting at. You'll have to forgive me: I'm currently writing a book on the theology of Wicca--so I've got my nose wide open, so to speak. I'd hate to think all of this work would be for naught ;)


Ask a dozen Wiccans about theology and dogma, and you'll get at least 10 different answers.

You're a thousand percent right here. That's because most of them don't know what they're talking about--and how can they? With most Wiccans deriving thir knowledge of theology from Llewellyn, how can they be expected to know anything? THey havent been taught anything. That is, of course, somewhat unfair, but to speak generally, there is precious littler literature out there to educate the public about the theology of Wicca. So they make up their own. That's no one's fault but our own. The community hasn't done anything to remedy this. Well, I"m taking a stab at it. Due April, 2002. *chuckle*

[bluecat]

Originally posted by amberlaine


I saw the rest Blue, but you didn't say "I interpret the word to mean..." you said "It should prpperly be translated..." and it shouldn't be translated that. That's not a "proper" translation at all.



The very next line begins:


That is how I see it.

Seems simple enough to me. Or don't you see that? I am amazed at how someone has to be the absolute authority on everything.

Blue

[amberlaine]

Then maybe "proper" isn't the word you should have chosen.

There are a great many things I dont know the first thing about. On those subjects, Ikeep my mouth closed and my ears open. On topics thatI do know a great deal about, Iwill talk. Often, at length. *chuckle* But if something is just my opinion, you won't catch me saying mine is the "proper" way. So nyah :p

[Yvonne Belisle]

Elohim



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrew: "God". One of the names of God. It is the name used by the author of one of the sources of the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible).
from......http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/e/elohim.html


Is Messiah Yeshuah Jesus is God Elohim

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many Christians believe that the messiah Yeshuah-Jesus is Elohim - God Himself. According to this idea, Elohim - God limited himself into the form of Yeshuah - Jesus so He Himself would be the sacrifice. However, does the Bible claim that Elohim - God is the messiah Yeshuah - Jesus? Or does the Bible refer to Elohim - God and the messiah Yeshuah - Jesus as different persons?

In this article I'll show some verses from the Bible that will give a new perspective to many Christians as to whether or not Elohim - God and the messiah Yesuah - Jesus are one.

This article is for Christians intrested in the Bible, Elohim ( God ), the messiah Yeshuah ( Jesus ), theology, and the New Testament.

In this article I use the Hebrew titles and names for God - Elohim and the messiah Yeshuah (Jesus ). I"ll refer to God as Elohim and to the messiah Jesus as Yeshuah.

So please visit the article "Is the messiah Yeshuah indeed God - Elohim?"


from....http://members.aol.com/eylka/index.html


The Divine Feminine

Usually when one envisions a personification of "God" within the Western paradigm of religious culture, one envisions a masculine figure. Therefore many assume there is no "Divine Feminine" aspect within the Western Tradition, but this is not the case. Although it is not bandied about within Western ecclesiastical circles...the Divine Feminine is definitely within the Western Judeo-Christian tradition and is alternatively paired with the Divine Masculine aspect or seen as the cause and birther of the Divine Masculine in manifestation.
Now within the Western tradition there is only the "One," and that One is neither masculine/feminine nor any other "physical" appellation/description we could imagine. It is beyond the beyond, it is the Ain, the Ain Soph, the Ain Soph Aur (The Limitless Light of No Thing), and out of that effluence of "All" the "One" extrudes...or emanates...itself into physical form (the many become one and the one become many). This is the beginning of the kabbalistic "tzim tzum" theory, and the "Tree of Life" in one way is a hierarchical map of the One’s energies as they are stepped down into physical matter. As these energies are stepped down, it is often easier to describe them with masculine/feminine appellations and descriptions.
There are ten positions on the "Tree of Life"; the first three are named the Supernal Triangle and incorporate the extrusion of the "One" Kether (sometimes referred to as crown or will). From Kether, instantaneously in some schools of thought and sequentially in others, two more positions (sephirah) are extruded…Binah and Chokmah. Chokmah is often shown as male, the bearded gray-headed man of most Western art depicting "God," and he is referred to as wisdom. The position is masculine/active in nature. The other sephir that is created in this initial outbreath of the "One" is Binah, "Understanding". Binah is the Divine Feminine, the "sea" from where all is birthed into form and to which all will return…she is the collective potential of all that will and can be. In the of Western Judeo-Christian philosophy she is often called the Shekinah, "the presence of God," and it is she that nurtures, guides and births the children of Israel (which means consciousness).
In the book of Genesis in the Bible we have it clearly stated not that God, Jehovah or YHWH created the heavens and the earth, but that the Elohim did. Now Elohim is a feminine noun that means "Creator Goddesses." This would be in alignment with the tzim tzum theory of emanation that form flows forth from Binah, the Divine Feminine...which when within the plane of manifestation, as we noted before, is called the Shekinah (presence of God).
When Miriam (the name derives from the word for sea), who is the Priestess to the Shekinah, dies in the desert while the children of Israel (consciousness) are wandering, they no longer have water, for the Shekinah has left (so the Bible says). Moses is told (by YHWH which means "creation") to "ask" a rock (meaning faith) to bring forth water (meaning the flow of Spirit). Moses is too stuck in his masculine polarity, and instead of asking uses force and strikes the rock with his rod to bring forth water. Because of this not honoring of the Divine Feminine he is not allowed to go into the promised land. Think about it *grin*
This Trinity can be seen again within the Christian tradition, and yet has been re-named as Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost would equate to the Divine Feminine, and even earlier in our Western Tradition the "dove" was a symbol of the Divine Feminine and the harbinger of the covenant with Noah. Thus Jesus is empowered by the Divine Feminine, the Holy Spirit.
So at base level the entire Judeo-Christian theology is based on the Divine Feminine (though you won’t get many to currently admit it in orthodox circles). In fact Jehovah, YHWH, the being that most people think is "God" in Western tradition, isn’t mentioned till much later in Genesis, and it actually means "creation". YHShWH or Joshua, the name of Jesus, has a "Shin" in the center, which is considered a "Mother letter" in Hebrew...the letter of the Divine Feminine that can manifest in matter through the principle of purifying fire. Like the dove descending into Jesus. Jesus serves the Shekinah, as he states in the New Testament: he is come not to change the law but to fulfill it; remember Moses didn’t fulfill it, he struck the rock. Jesus also says he will baptize by fire. Interesting, eh?
So if you wish to find the Divine Feminine within the Western Tradition, fulfill the Law and be Baptized by fire, it might be worth your while to do a little study on your own. Within the Western Tradition the Divine Feminine is alive and well. She may be hidden, but she will shine her face upon all those who seek "the Presence of God."
Interesting books for further research are:
When Women Were Priests, by Karen Jo Toriesen
The Woman With the Alabaster Jar, by Margaret Starbird
The Moon Under Her Feet, by Clysta Kinstler
Solomon & Sheba, by Barbara black Koltuv, Ph.D.
The Hebrew Goddess, by Raphael Patai

In Oneness
Rev. Kythera Ann

from.......http://www.geocities.com/~kabbalah/divinefeminine.html

Elohim
(Sept., theos; Vulg., Deus).

Elohim is the common name for God. It is a plural form, but "The usage of the language gives no support to the supposition that we have in the plural form Elohim, applied to the God of Israel, the remains of an early polytheism, or at least a combination with the higher spiritual beings" (Kautzsch). Grammarians call it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h). The Ethiopic plural amlak has become a proper name of God. Hoffmann has pointed out an analogous plural elim in the Phoenician inscriptions (Ueber einige phon. Inschr., 1889, p. 17 sqq.), and Barton has shown that in the tablets from El-Amarna the plural form ilani replaces the singular more than forty times (Proceedings of the American Oriental Society, 21-23 April, 1892, pp. cxcvi-cxcix).

Etymology

Elohim has been explained as a plural form of Eloah or as plural derivative of El. Those who adhere to the former explanation do not agree as to the derivation of Eloah. There is no such verbal stem as alah in Hebrew; but the Arabist Fleischer, Franz Delitzsch, and others appeal to the Arabic aliha, meaning "to be filled with dread", "anxiously to seek refuge", so that ilah (eloah) would mean in the first place "dread", then the object of dread. Gen., xxi, 42, 53, where God is called "the fear of Isaac", Is., viii, 13, and Ps. lxxv, 12, appear to support this view. But the fact that aliha is probably not an independent verbal stem but only a denominative from ilah, signifying originally "possessed of God" (cf. enthousiazein, daimonan) renders the explanation more than precarious. There is no more probability in the contention of Ewald, Dillmann, and others that the verbal stem, alah means "to be mighty": and is to regarded as a by-form of the stem alah; that, therefore, Eloah grows out of alah as El springs from alah. Baethgen (Beitrage, 297) has pointed out that of the fifty-seven occurrences of Eloah forty-one belong to the Book of Job, and the others to late texts or poetic passages. Hence he agrees with Buhl in maintaining that the singular form Eloah came into existence only after the plural form Elohim had been long in common use; in this case, a singular was supplied for its pre-existent plural. But even admitting Elohim to be the prior form, its etymology has not thus far been satisfactorily explained. The ancient Jewish and the early ecclesiastical writers agree with many modern scholars in deriving Elohim from El, but there is a great difference of opinion as to the method of derivation. Nestle (Theol. Stud. aus Würt., 1882, pp. 243 sqq.) supposes that the plural has arisen by the insertion of an artificial h, like the Hebrew amahoth (maidens) from amah. Buhl (Gesenius Hebraisches Handworterbuch, 12th ed., 1895, pp. 41 sq.) considers Elohim as a sort of augmentative form of El; but in spite of their disagreement as to the method of derivation, these writers are one in supposing that in early Hebrew the singular of the word signifying God was El, and its plural form Elohim; and that only more recent times coined the singular form Eloah, thus giving Elohim a grammatically correct correspondent. Lagrange, however, maintains that Elohim and Eloah are derived collaterally and independently from El.

The Use of the Word

The Hebrews had three common names of God, El, Elohim, and Eloah; besides, they had the proper name Yahweh. Nestle is authority for the statement that Yahweh occurs about six thousand times in the Old Testament, while all the common names of God taken together do not occur half as often. The name Elohim is found 2570 times; Eloah, 57 times [41 in Job; 4 in Pss.; 4 in Dan.; 2 in Hab.; 2 in Canticle of Moses (Deut., xxxii); 1 in Prov., 1 in Is.; 1 in Par.; 1 in Neh. (II Esd.)]; El, 226 times (Elim, 9 times). Lagrange (Etudes sur les religions sémitiques, Paris, 1905, p. 71) infers from Gen., xlvi, 3 (the most mighty God of thy father), Ex., vi, 3 (by the name of God Almighty), and from the fact that El replaces Yah in proper names, the conclusion that El was at first a proper and personal name of God. Its great age may be shown from its general occurrence among all the Semitic races, and this in its turn may be illustrated by its presence in the proper names found in Gen., iv, 18; xxv, 13; xxxvi, 43. Elohim is not found among all the Semitic races; the Aramaeans alone seem to have had an analogous form. It has been suggested that the name Elohim must have been formed after the descendants of Shem had separated into distinct nations.

Meaning of the Word

If Elohim be regarded as derived from El, its original meaning would be "the strong one" according to Wellhausen's derivation of El, from ul (Skizzen, III, 169); or "the foremost one", according to Nöldeke's derivation of El from ul or il, "to be in front" (Sitzungsberichte der berlinischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, 1880, pp. 760 sqq.; 1882, pp. 1175 sqq.); or "the mighty one", according to Dillmann's derivation of El from alah or alay, "to be mighty" (On Genesis, I, 1); or, finally "He after whom one strives", "Who is the goal of all human aspiration and endeavour", "to whom one has recourse in distress or when one is in need of guidance", "to who one attaches oneself closely", coincidentibus interea bono et fine, according to the derivation of El from the preposition el, "to", advocated by La Place (cf. Lagarde, Uebersicht, etc., p. 167), Lagarde (op. cit., pp. 159 sqq.), Lagrange (Religions semitiques, pp. 79 sqq.), and others. A discussion of the arguments which militate for and against each of the foregoing derivations would lead us too far.

If we have recourse to the use of the word Elohim in the study of its meaning, we find that in its proper sense it denotes either the true God or false gods, and metaphorically it is applied to judges, angels, and kings; and even accompanies other nouns, giving them a superlative meaning. The presence of the article, the singular construction of the word, and its context show with sufficient clearness whether it must be taken in its proper or its metaphorical sense, and what is its precise meaning in each case. Kautzsch (Encyclopaedia Biblica, III, 3324, n. 2) endeavours to do away with the metaphorical sense of Elohim. Instead of the rendering "judges" he suggests the translation "God", as witness of a lawsuit, as giver of decisions on points of law, or as dispenser of oracles; for the rendering "angels" he substitutes "the gods of the heathen", which, in later post-exilic times, fell to a lower rank. But this interpretation is not supported by solid proof.

According to Renan (Histoire du peuple d'Israel, I, p. 30) the Semites believed that the world is surrounded, penetrated, and governed by the Elohim, myriads of active beings, analogous to the spirits of the savages, alive, but somehow inseparable from one another, not even distinguished by their proper names as the gods of the Aryans, so that they can be considered as a confused totality. Marti (Geschichte der israelitischen Religion, p. 26), too, finds in Elohim a trace of the original Semitic polydemonism; he maintains that the word signified the sum of the divine beings that inhabited any given place. Baethgen (op. cit., p. 287), F.C. Baur (Symbolik und Mythologie, I, 304), and Hellmuth-Zimmermann (Elohim, Berlin, 1900) make Elohim an expression of power, grandeur, and totality. Lagrange (op. cit., p. 78) urges against these views that even the Semitic races need distinct units before they have a sum, and distinct parts before that arrive at a totality. Moreover, the name El is prior to Elohim (op. cit., p. 77 sq.) and El is both a proper and a common name of God. Originally it was either a proper name and has become a common name, or it was a common name has become a proper name. In either case, El, and, therefore, also its derivative form Elohim, must have denoted the one true God. This inference becomes clear after a little reflection. If El was, at first, the proper name of a false god, it could not become the common name of a false god, it could not become the common name for deity any more than Jupiter or Juno could; and if it was, at first, the common name for deity, it could become the proper name only of that God who combined in him all the attributes of deity, who was the one true God. This does not imply that all the Semitic races had from the beginning a clear concept of God's unit and Divine attributes, though all had originally the Divine name El.

VIGOUROUX in Dict. de la Bible, s.v.; KNABENBAUER, Lexicon Biblicum (Paris, 1907), II, 63; KAUTZSCH in Encyclopaedia Biblica (New York, 1902), III, 3323 sq.; LAGRANGE, Etudes sur les religions semitiques (Paris, 1905), 19, 71, 77 sqq.

A.J. MAAS
Transcribed by Thomas M. Barrett
Dedicated to the glory of God and His Son, Jesus Christ

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume V
Copyright © 1909 by Robert Appleton Company
Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat, May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor
Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York


fromhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htm


That is several takes upon the word.

[BearDancing]

What is a flying Fig.............LMAO

do you have some seeds that you are holding back on....what zone do they grow in. Do they take full sun or shade.


Love and Respect FairieSpirit

[Xois]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Know. I'm a Pagan, and I know and trust that Jesus existed ~ and I accept that he was a fine teacher with a beautiful message. However, I feel that that message has been corrupted by the populace over time. Does my belief that Christ existed make me a Christian? Of course not ~ no more than going into a garage would make me a car.

----

Well you used two different words here...To believe that Jesus-the man -- exsited and was a cool guy who did good stuff is VERY different from believing in Christ ei, Messiah. One believing in Christ means one is a christian (they believe that Jesus was more than Jesus of Nazarath, and that he was the son of God.), Believing in Jesus of Nazarath makes one a Historicist! ;)

[Xois]

this is a matter of theology, and the theological basis for Christianity and Wicca don't mix. It's like oil and water.

___

Based on the premisis above, I believe this is incorrect. If you look at the basic premise of the devine. You do have the same theological basis in Wicca (God / Son / Lover with Goddess/Mother / lover) in Christanity. In fact the basis of christian theology is based on the egyptian Isis myths. Those are decidely more pagan than christian. There is a tripple goddess in Christanity...Ruth, Mary, and Mary Magdeline.

One can be 2 religions...as an eclectic I mesh a whole bunch of stuff! Christanity and Judaism both have Mystical sides that one can persue. Part of Wicca is based on the ability to connect personally / spiritually with the divine. Both Christanity and Judaism have similar systems within them. Which by the way, are both older than Wicca (since wicca is about 50 years old)

Also--the Rede comes directly from the Golden rule, spoken first by Confusious (sp) and adopted by Christanity as well as Wiccans

Perhaps Amberlaine, you are creating such a divide becuase you have a discomfort level with christanity? Or perhaps you choose to focus on the difference instead of the similarities to some how feel validated in your choice of path (which of course you don't have to do here...we accept you for who you are)

It is not my intention to get into a chicken and egg debate. Just wanted to raise some points you might find interesting

And by the way, the 10 commandments (apart from the first one) are pretty good rules to live by no matter who you are :)

Just my 2 cents!

Xois

[gunner]

." Everyone pulling punches because you don't want to 'offend' anyone. You can't have an actual debate if everyone is so conciliatory"

actually i'd say they're trying hard to remain courteous on a subject that has inflamed passions since the conflict between pantheism and monotheism began and has caused wars and murders since the time of akhenaton and before. perhaps we might all want to take a break for a glass of lemonade and a joke or two, may i direct your eyes to the latest entries in "good jokes".

[Rævyn Cigány]

Pour me a glass please, Gunner, hon....I think we could all use one!

Love and light

Rae )0(

[gunner]

"Pour me a glass please, Gunner, hon....I think we could all use one"

certes milady reavyn, t'would be my pleasure

[Celtic_Angel]

I'll help you pass out the lemonade Gunner!!!! :sunny:

Amberlaine would you like some lemonade to relieve you from the stress of writing that book? It seems that you could use it. :)

[amberlaine]

well I dont like lemonade but i'll take a beer if anyone's got one.

[Semele]

You're a thousand percent right here. That's because most of them don't know what they're talking about--

Ouch! I see where you were going with this but it sounded just a tad harsh. Perhaps you could have changed the wording a little to say they were confused due to different "authoritive" sources.
Anything that doesn't sound like you are attacking them for their ignorance as you see it. Just remember that to some ignorance is bliss. Or perhaps they aren't ignorant at all..... of their own beliefs. They may take parts of the various sources and develop their own belief structure. True, maybe then it isn't the textbook definition of Wicca, but most religions are very far distanced from the original interpretations set forth by the founders.

I see the true beauty of a PAGAN lifestyle in the understanding and acceptance of this fact. I am happy that you are sound in your own spirituality and want to share that with others, because lets face it... life is confusing. I am sure your book will help a lot of people find their way. But I do hope that they use it as a guideline not a Bible. I personally don't think any book is worthy of the stature that the Bible holds to this day.

I have found my warm fuzzy place in the spiritual realm and I hope others do as well. I just don't feel the need to write a book about it. Plus I am not disciplined enough to do that!! :rolleyes:
I am glad their are folks like you around who can put it all out their for us though. I wish you the best of luck. Don't get too caught up defending your ideas here that your book comes across intolorant. You have a brilliant mind and can be an excellent author!

Semele

[Semele]

Originally posted by amberlaine
well I dont like lemonade but i'll take a beer if anyone's got one.

BEER!!! YEah YEah!!!

Me too barkeep!!

Semele

[Kaylara]

I am posting this to show everyone what intolerance shows those younger members of the pagan community... This is from one of the teen pagan yahoo clubs I am a member of:

For the christian who entered our club

What is your problem? coming in here and preaching to us if you don't even
understand what you are saying, you think someone really CREATED this planet?
you think there is a dude living all up in the clouds waiting for dead people to
strut around in their robes? all you christians ever do is say, "I think our
religion is the best." well there are others out there, different people have
different beliefs, you can't just go into one religion, tell them it's 'devil
worshiping' and then expect us to actually take into acount of what you are
saying, for example would you go to a Buddhist or a Jew or someone who doesn't
have a relion and tell them christianity is the best! worship my god! follow
this path! you need to learn how to talk to people right if you want to convert
them, don't just go telling them they worship a false god or that they are devil
worshipers, I don't believe in either your devil or your god or the easter bunny
for that matter!

What I'm saying is that you can't go making people believe what you want them
to, it's their decision what they want to believe in.

and:
Wheres a host to kick people out of a club when you need it?

EMily

PS- jsut for the hell of it "THE POWEER OF CHRIST COMPELLS YOU! THE POWER OF
CHRIST COMPELLS YOU!!"


Kaylara

(i'll post more in a min.)

[Kaylara]

My reply to the previous posts:

Now, I have just been sitting in the wings for a while now, listening to this
whole thing go on. I wrote to the Christian who visited the board, and found
that he was a nice person, who was genuinely concerned for our well being.

You people who are insulting this person for coming and doing what his religion
tells him to do are wrong. If you took out a second to actually talk to this
person, you would have found the same things that I did. You are guilty of being
just as intolerant as you claim Christians are. It's wrong to condemn any person
because of their own beliefs, and I have lived through enough conversion
attempts to know why you guys are all mad at this person. But that doesn't give
you the right to turn around and tell him why he is wrong and you are correct.
That's being hypocritical.

Most pagan paths are paths that do not condone the harrassment of other
religious paths. Most Christian paths require that they bring as many people to
heaven with them as possible. Obviously these ideas are in conflict with each
other. But rather than attacking this person's ideological standpoint, why not
try finding out why he believes the way he does? Why not try discussing things
with him? Why not try practicing what you preach? If you want tolerance and
acceptance in the mainstream, you have to show that you are willing to do the
same to the mainstream.

Kaylara

ANd their reply:

Most people are nice once you get to know know them. And I agree with you mostly
on wha tyou said.

I can't practice wicca for several reasons. One is that there isn't a store
around here that you can get all of those supplies for a ritual. And another is
time.

HUmans just aren't very tolerant. If they were then everyone in isreal would be
holding hands playing the ukelele (exaggeration). But when someoen attacks what
I believe in, you'd better believe I will attack them right back or make some
form of wiseass remarks. Hypocritical? Maybe, but am I jsut supossed to let my
ass grow fatter while he slaps us with the bible?

[Kaylara]

And my final reply:

"I can't practice wicca for several reasons. One is that there isn't a store
around here that you can get all of those supplies for a ritual. And another is
time."

I do not live by a store that can sell a lot of the items that I need. I make a
lot of my own ritual items, grow, harvest, and wildcraft other herbs. I made my
own sacred space in my yard, and my fiance built my altar. Then again, I am very
open and willing to discuss my beliefs. While I can understand the time issue,
one does not need certain tools to worship or be Pagan or Wiccan. IMHO, it's not
about the tools, it's about aligning myself with nature. Even if I only take out
a few minutes in the morning, at meals, and at night, I am still worshiping.
There is no prescribed way for you to worship, it's up to you to do it, and I
can only tell you what works for me... I have been pagan for about 7 years now,
and I went through many times when I couldn't outwardly practice my religion,
but that is to say nothing of my inner spirituality, or practice of that.

"HUmans just aren't very tolerant. If they were then everyone in isreal would be
holding hands playing the ukelele (exaggeration). But when someoen attacks what
I believe in, you'd better believe I will attack them right back or make some
form of wiseass remarks. Hypocritical? Maybe, but am I jsut supossed to let my
ass grow fatter while he slaps us with the bible?"

Tolerence starts with you... If you want people to be tolerant towards you, you
have to show them the same.

There are hundreds of years of aggression being played out in the Middle East,
if they want peace over there, they will have to go against everything that they
have been taught by their culture, their families, and their governments. That
is something that could realistically get them killed over there. You can't look
at another culture and condemn its practices because every culture in the world
is inherently Ethnocentric.

If someone comes in and starts bashing my religion, do I automatically react? Do
I become "Super Witch, protector of all pagans"? (Just joking... It came to my
mind, and I had to use it.) Or do I sit back and try to understand the
motivations behind this persons actions? I would have to say the latter would be
the best option for me. I would rather understand why this person feels this
way, so I could have an itellegent, indepth conversation with them, then turning
around and condemning them. If I do that, I am a hypocrite. I will not let
someone "attack" me with a Bible, but why throw away a chance to prove to these
people that we are nice, caring, non-devil worshiping people by attacking their
beliefs. If we do that, then we are doing the same thing that they do, and we
get this "holier than thou" attitude.

Simply put, if we can treat this person with respect, and talk to him
intellegently, then he will be less inclined to come in here "attacking people
with a bible"

You want proof that this works? I am a member of a pagan on-line community that
welcomes open-minded people of any religion to join in the discussion. You can
e-mail me if you want the address of this place.

This post is just my opinion on this... I think it's wrong to harrass people of
another religion, even if they start it. (Two wrongs DO NOT make a right) I’m
sorry if this has offended anyone.

Kaylara Nightshade

[Semele]

Kaylara,
I would like to make a generalization and say that the above post has to be overlooked because it is from a teen, however too many adults harbor the same twisted ideas... or what seems twisted to me. (not to point fingers and insult someone from a small example) You were absolutely right that tolorance begins with us. It is great that you are offering an example for this young pagan to see. Much like parents, it is our duty to help along younger and new pagans. That is if we choose to accept this mission. <insert mission impossible theme here> We don't have to, of course, but it is nice if we can.

Semele

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Semele
I would like to make a generalization and say that the above post has to be overlooked because it is from a teen

:confused: Okay, I'm lost. Teens are just as important as adults. I think a lot of adults seem to forget that. That's one thing I've not forgotten from my childhood ~ just because I'm younger than you, doesn't mean that what I have to say isn't important. Thankfully, at 32, I'm an Elder in a Path that realizes that "out of the mouths of babes" comes the most beautiful of teachings.

[muse]

I hate to point this out but the way the above post is written it tells teens that their views mean nothing and count for less. Please clarify this. I was refering to the post by Semele

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Semele
Kaylara,
I would like to make a generalization and say that the above post has to be overlooked because it is from a teen, however too many adults harbor the same twisted ideas... or what seems twisted to me. (not to point fingers and insult someone from a small example) You were absolutely right that tolorance begins with us. It is great that you are offering an example for this young pagan to see. Much like parents, it is our duty to help along younger and new pagans. That is if we choose to accept this mission. <insert mission impossible theme here> We don't have to, of course, but it is nice if we can.
Semele

The way I read this post is that:
People are quick to blame the original post I put here on simple teenage stuff... But we cannot say that because there are many adults who do exactly the same thing.

~Just my take on it~

Kaylara
*;)... I am a teen afterall ;)*

[Celtic_Angel]

Um Semele, as a teen myself, that hurt. I think that kind of opinion is part of the problem when it comes to teens having to do outragious things to feel important. Although the comment does not hit all teens, it appears that way. Adults need to be careful about alienating teens too much.

[Semele]

Clarification:

I apologize if that came out wrong....perfect example huh???!!! Uh yeah thats why I said it to set an example!!! 8O

Seriously what I meant to say...should have been more specific!! Teens often aren't the best at directing their passions and feelings, yet niether are a lot of adults..(me!!!) It was intended to be an irony. People are quick to point out that a certain behavior is due to teenage angst, when often it goes much deeper. I remember being a teen and raging at someone who I felt was attacking me.... as it appeared to me this teen was doing. I have since learned how to better express myself in ways that are hopefully productive and not defensive or aggressive. I should have been more clear. Again I am sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't even realise you were a teen dear. Which goes to show we shouldn't make generalizations!

Semele

[Mairwen]

FWIW, so is Kaylara ~ though I'd have never known it if she hadn't told me herself.

[Kaylara]

Yay!!! I got it right! ;)


Kaylara

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by amberlaine



You're a thousand percent right here. That's because most of them don't know what they're talking about--and how can they? With most Wiccans deriving thir knowledge of theology from Llewellyn, how can they be expected to know anything? THey havent been taught anything. That is, of course, somewhat unfair, but to speak generally, there is precious littler literature out there to educate the public about the theology of Wicca. So they make up their own. That's no one's fault but our own. The community hasn't done anything to remedy this. Well, I"m taking a stab at it. Due April, 2002. *chuckle*

Gee, I wonder it the reason we all follow a different Pagan path is that there are thousands of paths to choose from? I happened upon my beliefs quite accidentally, and never read Llewellyn or any other so called "authority." I hate to read any book that tells me what I should believe or how I should practice those beliefs. Ony I know what is right for me. I believe that we are constantly unraveling the mysteries of the universe, and while doing so, make different stops along the way. So, we, naturally, can not be on the same page.

Back to Christian/Wiccan, if one believes that they are a Christian/Wiccan then they are. It is their path, not yours to critisize or label. There are no authorities on the spiritual path, and to believe you are one, means you've run off the road and are stuck in a ditch.

[Elaine]

-Back to Christian/Wiccan, if one believes that they are a Christian/Wiccan then they are.-

I think that as long as it is right in my heart, it's right!! We all must hold true to our hearts and not go along with others just because of the "everyone else is doing it" disease! We are all individuals on this planet and it needs to be as such....being individuals means to be yourself, no matter what any one else says.... THAT is the path I choose for myself....if it is wrong to others, or right to others, it doesn't matter...it's right to me...and that's what matters!!!

[Tigerwallah]

The path we walk is so personal, that it has no place for "experts" telling us how to walk it. Guides are one thing, but those who would tell us that our path or beliefs are incorrect are just as likely to be wrong or right about their own path. This is not as much a question of theology and dogma as it is of listening to your own higher self, and being true to that.

So, IMHO, your soul is following the path that is right for you, and as such whatever you see yourself to be, you are.

[mol]

A note on this thread. This thread has swayed on/off topic several times and for other reasons has been the bane of my existence for a while now.

So, if one more thing is posted that is off-topic or a blanketing statement against another religion in this thread then I am closing the thread down. Period. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I cant help it. I am beyond b$ right now. And...this is not up for discussion. I have made a decision here and I would appreciate your support on it.

[gunner]

"I would appreciate your support on it"

you got it!

[Kaylara]

As always, you have my support... ;)

Kaylara

[sherry]

Thank You MOL and yes you have my support on any decision that puts a stop to this !! It has drastically changed my opinions of people I thought I had an understanding of, through their many other posts.

I could not believe that members of this FAMILY, could say such hurtfull things to each other and have been avoiding Just Talk for this reason . I am sure to some this is a FLUFFY BUNNY opinion but I joined this forum for an enjoyable healthy debate not to watch bashing and boasting.

I have seen this on other sites and it is exactly why I never joined.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Gee, I wonder it the reason we all follow a different Pagan path is that there are thousands of paths to choose from? I happened upon my beliefs quite accidentally, and never read Llewellyn or any other so called "authority." I hate to read any book that tells me what I should believe or how I should practice those beliefs. Ony I know what is right for me. I believe that we are constantly unraveling the mysteries of the universe, and while doing so, make different stops along the way. So, we, naturally, can not be on the same page.

Back to Christian/Wiccan, if one believes that they are a Christian/Wiccan then they are. It is their path, not yours to critisize or label. There are no authorities on the spiritual path, and to believe you are one, means you've run off the road and are stuck in a ditch.



Again, this is a debate in theology, not in the validity of personal spiritual experience. That debate would be very short and we'd all be very agreeable, I think. :D


If you want to be a Christian, that means a lot of things. We are only pointing out that there is much Christian doctrine that you need to ignore to rationalize this path. If you choose to use a label, excpect to be held to that label (most especially when its brought up as a direct topic of conversation). Christianity has a whole lot of things that don't work with Wicca. You either have to rationalize it (the point of this thread being I don't think you can do that succesfully), or ignore it (which, imho, is quite foolish. Whats the point then? See the comment on Pink Jesus above somewhere).

This is why I hate labels. I don't have one, myself.

Again: Do whatever the hell you want. Don't listen to me. Don't listen to any of us.

[Xois]

Again, this is a debate in theology, not in the validity of personal spiritual experience. If you want to be a Christian, that means a lot of things.

Please see my post above about the Theology. :) Becuase there are many threads of theology specially about concepts of the divine that Wicca and Christanity share.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Xois
Please see my post above about the Theology. :) Becuase there are many threads of theology specially about concepts of the divine that Wicca and Christanity share.

But what about the VAST quantity of Christian doctrine that goes against the concept of Christian/Wiccan? Are we just supposed to ignore that? Really, thats all I think I've been trying to point out.

Lots of religions share a common root. Most of them share common beliefs and rituals. This says something about the universality of the spirit, I think.

[Tigerwallah]

Apotheosis, I see where you are coming from. However, any Theology and written dogma was based upon someone's personal beliefs. Again, I believe that politics and hundreds of years of Popes, wars, and Kings (like James who censored the Bible) has gotten away from the true meaning of being a Christian, which is following Jesus Christ. Jesus, himself, did not speak very much of dogma or of theology. Therefor, If one believes in Christ as the savior, or even a savoir because his story is a familiar one in the pagan religion, they would be able to hold the title of Christian. Unless of course, you require them to coin their own word for following Christ - but Jesuit was taken too, and Nazarien means geographic location... Well, if I come up with one, I'll let you know. Again, I think we are trying to argue black and white on a subject that has more facets and colors than crayola can even imagine.

Em Hotep

You go, Mol!!!

[Xois]

Do you think you coudl give me a few examples?

[Kaylara]

I found this at the WLPA, and I think that it is one of the most intellegent posts I've seen:

Sadly enough, the worth of anyone's faith boils down to this: The way we treat the person we like the least, is the way we love God the most.

Does this make sense to anyone else? It doesn't matter if some pagans have a problem with Christian/Wiccans, Wiccans in general, Satanists, whatever... It is what the person who is following that particular path believes, and feels in their heart is correct. Who am I to tell anyone that their path is wrong, or invalid just because I don't agree with it, or follow the same path?

Kaylara
(Judge, Jury, Executioner... J/k)

[Apotheosis]

I would really hate for this to dwell on quotation and counter-quotation, so I'll be brief on this.

Take the Nicene Creed. A few things come out of this.

- There is one god, and he is a he (the Father).
- There is no goddess, just one god.
- Confession and forgiveness of sin is the key to resurrection.

This enforces the monotheistic and patriarchal nature of Christianity as a whole.

Tigerwallah has a good point, but I'd like to go back to an earlier post I made.


Originally posted by Apotheosis
If we want to discuss THEOLOGY ("The study of the nature of God and religious truth"), then we have to accept that Christianity means more than just accepting Jesus Christ as a personal savior. Otherwise, we could all invent our own "personal Christianity", and it would be about as homogeneous as a bowl of Lucky Charms. We all know what Christianity *is*. It is a diverse tradition based on the Bible and lasting the last 2 millenia. It has lots of dogma, and beliefs, and rituals, and stuff.
If you would like to postulate that instead Christianity is something else, something personal, then this entire thread is entirely pointless, as then we can all just make up what we want to Worship via Salad Bar Theology ("Pick and Choose"), and Christianity means nothing at all - in my Christianity Jesus is Blue, in yours he is Pink, in theirs SHE is a small Golden Retriever.

I have not ever meant to imply that Christianity is not a diverse spiritual tradition worthy of "liberating" concepts from. I am suggesting that being a Christian implies a lot more than holding Jesus as your savior.

As always, humbly and respectfully yours,

[Xois]

Sadly enough, the worth of anyone's faith boils down to this: The way we treat the person we like the least, is the way we love God the most

This makes perfect sense...

In other words, if we treat the person we like least in a bad way then we love god in a bad way

Or inversly

If we treat the person we like least with love and compassion -- then we love god with love and compassion

[bluecat]

I think we have said enough on this. No offense to anyone, but we are beating a dead dog, let's let the poor dog rest in peace, please.

Blue

[BearDancing]

I second that


Love and Respect FairieSpirit

[gunner]

i have to agree bluecat, we've just learned why this is a 2,000 year old arguement that has even caused wars. (did they once really argue over "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"??) shall we just "agree to disagree", let it go at that and remain friends.

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by Semele
Clarification:

I apologize if that came out wrong....perfect example huh???!!! Uh yeah thats why I said it to set an example!!! 8O

Seriously what I meant to say...should have been more specific!! Teens often aren't the best at directing their passions and feelings, yet niether are a lot of adults..(me!!!) It was intended to be an irony. People are quick to point out that a certain behavior is due to teenage angst, when often it goes much deeper. I remember being a teen and raging at someone who I felt was attacking me.... as it appeared to me this teen was doing. I have since learned how to better express myself in ways that are hopefully productive and not defensive or aggressive. I should have been more clear. Again I am sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't even realise you were a teen dear. Which goes to show we shouldn't make generalizations!

Semele

LOL. No problem Semele. :)

I agree with Blue. We should let the poor dog alone. :)

[thyla]

A priest of Dionysis that I know first brought to my attention the term "ChristoPagan". As he pointed out to me, Jesus and/or God is just another face of the Goddess or God that all Pagans/Wiccans worship. Just like all of the saints in the Catholic church are worshipped like gods and goddesses. Having Jesus or God as your "father" god is no different than having Pan or Dionysis or any other god that has choosen you. Christo Paganism is meerly a mix of eclectic Paganism and Christianity without all of the baggage brought on by the church and its members.

Slinking back into lurkdom...:p

[Mairwen]

Welcome, Thyla ~ and excellent post!

[Tigerwallah]

That's awsome. Thanks for putting so perfectly into words what I was thinking. Christo-pagan, well all you Christian Wiccans, you now have a label that is "accepted" - if you want it. :D

Em Hotep

[Alphyna]

"Christian Wiccans--No. Of course, there are plenty of folks who disagree with me, but I think the idea is absurd. You're either one religion or another. But not both. "

*sorry-I have no idea how to quote others*

I do have to disagree there, for I think I am on the verge of being a Christian/witch/Wiccan/Buddhist/etc...I am very ecclectic, and I think there are truths in all religions, and I like to take the truths that I feel to be true to me, and incorporate them into my beliefs....
I don't see why you couldn't believe in both principles at the same time. It's possible to be in love with more than one reason, right? :)
BB, Alphyna

[Yvonne Belisle]

Yes it is possible at least in my opinion.

[Elaine]

I completely agree with Bluecat on this one...it is a subject that I am very into talking about and learning about, considering I do feel that it is my path...but even I am getting frustrated with the fact that it keeps going around in a circle...we will not resolve this...you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and nothing anyone has to say will change that....this is not trying to be rude, it's just a fact that we all have to face!!

[Apotheosis]

Alphyna made me think of something, and its something I hinted at earlier in this thread. Hopefully, this will strike a chord of common sense, so everyone can go "Ah, yes, I agree" and move on to other topics.

Its all about labels.

One of my earlier contentions was that using the term "Christian" means a lot more than being inspired by the words of Jesus Christ. Indeed, my feelings were that by using this label one buys into a long tradition of christian belief and though, or at least a large portion of it.

Its the same with "Wiccan", that means a whole bunch of things too.

To me, Christian Wiccan is a composite label, and as such carries the entire weight of both of the other labels. So when you say Christian Wiccan, I get stuck on how these two groups of thinking and acting and being clash with each other. The little barbs on the side of each philisophy that stick and poke and are incompatible with each other.

So to me, Christian Wicca was not "A person inspired by the teachings of both ideologies". Which, I'll dare to presume, is what I think it means to a whole lot of you.

So we're hung up on words, on details. Some of us are itching for a debate on theology (oooo! fun! :D), some of us are just wanting to defend the value we see in that Jesus guy. Two entirely different discussions, that to me, are hung up on the definition of silly little words.

I had a lot of fun with this. I think I learned something.

In love, in light,

Namaste,
Apotheos

[Kaylara]

OK... If we can agree to disagree, and that this discussion is over, let me know and I will close this thread... I feel that it would be counter productive to leave it open, but it's your decision...

Kaylara

[bluecat]

This discussion has been over for some time.

Blue

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by bluecat
This discussion has been over for some time.

Blue

It has? :confused: What have I missed?:(
Could you all run that by me again? ;) :D hehehe


To believe what you see is to be deceived
**********************************
Reject all illusions of social harmony

[Tigerwallah]

Yes, please let's close this thread and move on. I see no further revelations that would bring everyone together.

[Celtic_Angel]

I vote to close it.

[quixote]

Im not sure if this applies, but my great-grandmother was wiccan, and also an anglican. She said she went to church because she liked the music. Also in my own experience there is not a lot of fellowship available if you are solitary and just starting out. I consider myself the token wiccan in the few times I go to church in the year,and decidedly non-christian.