The value of the "publicly shocking" witch

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm not a visibly "out of the broomcloset" Witch. I do wear a necklace with a religious symbol (a triskele) but it's inside my shirt. I rarely ever wear all-black, and I don't have a tattoo. I don't wear makeup (unless you count a bit of hair gel). If you saw me out in public you wouldn't likely figure out that I'm a Witch.

But there are some Witches, Wiccans, or Pagans who do display their religious convictions visibly. People like Laurie Cabot in Salem, MA, who wears what most would call "ritual robes" (and all-black ones at that) all the time, who wears heavy Egyptian-influenced makeup with lots of eyeliner, who has enough jewelry on her person to make swimming a dangerous prospect. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, it was people like Gerald Gardner and Alex Sanders who sought out attention in the media, who quite happily posed for photos in very pagan garb and settings.

I've seen a lot of people complain about these "flamboyant in-your-face" types. Often those who make a point of dressing "witchy" or "goth" are seen as doing the Pagan community a disservice as a whole. They're often assumed to be flighty, no-very-serious types who are just looking for attention. (I wonder... are Laurie Cabot, Gerald Gardner, and Alex Sanders also "flighty" then? They did the flamboyant thing long before the "goth" fad hit.)

I'm also gay so I have THAT closet as well, which constantly builds itself up around you if you let it. "Coming out" isn't a one-time thing -- every new person you meet is another opportunity to "come out" if you want it to be. I'm not "visibly gay" either, but then all my family and friends know that I'm gay. It's just not something that I bring up with strangers if it's not an issue of discussion.

In the gay community there is a lot of the same discussion about whether drag queens are hurting or helping things by being flamboyant. Some argue that they promote stereotypes and this hurts us. Others point out that when it comes down to the dirty work of fighting for equality, it is often the flamboyant drag queens who kick things in gear and get it going. They are the front-line fighters, the ones who get us heard and seen. They were the ones who were battling the cops and the forces of oppression in the Stonewall riots in NYC in the late 1960s. The Stonewall riots are considered today to have been the major turning point for gay rights in the US, bringing gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered out of the closet in a political way and marking the start of real change for equal rights.

In the Wiccan community, Gerald Gardner's work seeking publicity in the 1950s and 1960s, along with the publication of his books "Witchcraft Today" and "The Meaning of Witchcraft," serve very similar purposes to the Stonewall riots. He raised awareness for our community, which probably wouldn't be anywhere as populous today if he hadn't "spread the word" in his flamboyant way. Laurie Cabot, as well, helped make Salem the destination that it is now for many tourists and Witches. I'm not sure she would have been as successful if she'd looked like a typical "soccer mom" who blends in with the crowd.

The gay community has learned to embrace the drag queens as colourful characters to be indulged and embraced. The fact that they're able to be as open as they are is a sign of the freedom gained by the gay community. Perhaps we in the Pagan community could learn from the history and example of the gay community and do the same with our flamboyant characters. Not everyone has to "show off" their religious affiliations, but then we should recognize the things those "flamboyant ones" have accomplished on our community's behalf.

They're not perfect, by any means, but I'd rather be known as a community that leans towards acceptance of diversity (we're mostly polytheists, after all, aren't we???) rather than a bunch of bitter recluses who begrudge others who choose to express themselves through dress and makeup.

What do others think? Is being "goth" and/or "openly Pagan" good or bad? In your opinion, does history punish communities for being more visible? How can we help our community learn from history and grow towards a more diverse and tolerant ideal?

[Chibi-Fallon]

A big problem I myself have with goths is the holier-then-thou attitude many of them take. I know it takes like 2 hours to put on all that makeup and clothes, but that really doesn’t make you cool (nor does it make your poems any good).
Not only does the fact that being a goth is associated with a teenaged phase not help Paganism, but the attitude associated with it doesn’t help things. When I think of Pagan I’d much rather think Bohemian or something along those lines.
Why can't Paganism be seen as a happy religion? If people seemed to be happy I don't think so many people would assume small animals were being sacrificed. And the problem with many goths is they take themselves *way* to seriously and just come off as a stupid teenager who has nothing to rebel against so went goth to piss of their parents. And I do believe that’s a big reason Paganism is the “piss off you’re parents” religion of choice. It’s so “dark and mysterious.” Most of the time when I see gothic teens saying that they're Pagan the thing that runs through my head is "Oh, just grow up."

[Lucid]

I'm a jeans and t-shirt type of person . I only wear pentacle jewelry for ritual , but I have never been big on jewelry at all. If they want to dress that way its their choice but personally when I see them I think "fluff bunny" . I need work on having a more open mind. I think they hurt us more than help us.

[Valnorran]

I think in many parts of the country making your appearance glaringly Pagan (what I call the Morticia Addams look) is akin to dressing up like a whitetail deer during hunting season.

For some reason, I find people who take on extreme appearances to make sure you know what they are to be exceedingly annoying. I'm not sure why. It's as though they're going out of their way to cause a fuss when there is absolutely no reason to do so, then they act shocked and hurt when the general population doesn't accept them. The general population is going to associate the Morticia Addams look with B grade horror flicks and cliched notions of evil cults and devil worship. Ignorant? Very, but there it is and we have to deal with it. If you want people to accept you, you would do well to avoid alienating them (especially when they first lay eyes on you). I think it is all too easy for us to forget that acceptance is a two way street.

[Rainx]

When you project an image it seems logical that that's the image people are going to come to accept.

If people dance around in heavy makeup, gaudy jewelry, and specific clothing, that's what people are going to associate with them. If you say I'm Pagan and your appearance has already offended someone they might not stick around to find out what Paganism really means.

This is what I don't understand about people - if you dress or act in such a way as to shock or repel people, don't whine when that's what happens. Fear leads to anger and to hate, we all know that, so why go out of your way to frighten people.

Instead, wouldn't it make sense to dress and act just as you are, without intimidating people, so they feel comfortable asking you about Paganism, or so when you speak about your spiritual beliefs they see you as reasonable and intelligent, rather then rude and frightening?

Sure everyone has the freedom, if not the duty, of being who they are and expressing themselves as they will, even if that requires heavy jewelry and black clothes. Absolutely. At the same time, we all know how many people we've seen who wear the heavy jewelry and black clothes, and why that usually is. We also know what we think when we see the football star, or the kid with tape on their glasses. We stereotype because it's shorthand for the grain of truth that is often found in that stereotype. As much as we know the stereotype isn't always correct, we know it's human nature to classify. We know that if we act scary and standout, that's what is going to happen. If you scare someone away before they can get to know you, then how can they ever get to know you?

Opening people's minds doesn't happen by scaring the bejeezus out of them, or forcing "acceptance". It happens by accepting others first, by appearing to be someone who's safe and interesting to talk to and accept.

[Rainx]

And before someone gets upset, I'm not saying not to express yourself if black and gaudy jewelry expresses who you are.

I'm more referring to people who want to stand out, frighten people, or scream about their uniqueness without speaking, but then are surprised when people are frightened or turned off.

[Ben Gruagach]

Check out some photos of what the "public face of Witchcraft" was like going back to the 1950s when Gerald Gardner started really pushing himself in the media. Please remember that many of these photos were first published in the mainstream press or in books about witchcraft. The people in them weren't exactly trying very hard to present themselves to the public as being the types who'd "blend into the crowd."

Gerald Gardner: http://www.geraldgardner.com/index/archive.shtml

Alex Sanders, and a few more of Gardner (and some others too): http://www.geocities.com/triple-moon/photos/

more of Alex Sanders: http://www.controverscial.com/Alex%20Sanders.htm

Alex and Maxine Sanders, as well as various other Pagan public figures: http://moonfeyrie.homestead.com/profilesS.html

The "visibly witchy" person has been showing up in the media well before the modern "goth" fad. Would we be where we are today if it weren't for some of those people, like Gerald Gardner, Alex Sanders, and even Laurie Cabot? (Remember, Cabot was doing her thing back in the early 70s in Salem.)

Are Gardner, Sanders, and Cabot "fluffy"?

[AstraSkye]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach

What do others think? Is being "goth" and/or "openly Pagan" good or bad?

I've met a lot of people who are Goth (most of them are in their 20s), and who carry their act in a very respectable way. Their clothes are just right, and the make-up is humble. They're right through genuine (most, anyway), as they have grown past the stage of wanting to rebel. I have also met people who are openly Pagans. They, too, are quite humble in their appearance.

Myself, I've worn the same type of clothing for so many years I've lost count. Jeans and sweaters. Often black, or darkly colored, because I like black and other dark colors. I love it when people are offended by the color of one's clothes - it shows how narrow-minded they are. As for being openly Pagan... I don't flaunt it. However, I do wear a (small) pentagram openly. I refuse to hide it under my clothes. If Christians can wear crosses openly, why can't I wear a pentagram openly?

Other than that, I agree with what the others have said so far.

I'm sorry if the following paragraph offends anyone (and I want to make clear I'm not usually judging by age. I've seen 17-year-olds doing the same, but most fluffies seem to be the ages mentioned below):

Lately I've ran into a lot of 11- to 13-year olds saying "I'm a Wiccan... can someone explain Wicca to me?"... or "I'm a witch... what does a witch do?", and they all have e-mail addresses or usernames like "evilwitch", "darkmagickwiccan", or something along those lines. Some dress like Morticia Adams (or - they try doing it), and most talk about "love spells", "love potions". Not to forget the know-it-all act. I don't have to share my opinions on this, as I think most people know what's on my mind.

Point is - being openly goth and openly Pagan can be good and bad. It all depends on how it's done.

[Rainx]

A few things, Ben.

First, this isn't the 50's. Sometimes looking back at the roots of Wicca can give us some ideas about how we practice now, but in terms of society and fashion I think things have changed way too much for comparing the two to be useful. What was acceptable then is much different then from what is now, and what someone's outfit might have said about someone then has also changed dramatically.

Second, the people you mentioned never did "blend into the crowd". Chances are, if you mentioned them to any non Pagan now the person you're talking to would have no clue who or what you're talking about. Thus, while they have certainly had a huge impact on how we practice our religion, they haven't done much to change how the public sees it, at least in that they aren't thought of as the "spokespeople for Pagans" or reliable sources for those who aren't Pagan. In other words, have they helped people who are interested in Paganism find their way? Sure. But have they helped non Pagans accept Pagans?

Third, the contributions those people have made had little to do with their outfits and makeup. You started the thread by asking if people who are intentionally shocking create acceptance - those people, while being some of the most important names in Wicca and Paganism, didn't create acceptance by wearing strange outfits. They helped share their beliefs for others by writing and speaking, not by how they looked.

Don't take my response as saying anyone who looks "weird" makes no contribution. In my mind, one's contribution in thought and word is totally unrelated to their appearance. The discussion started in regards to whether being intentionally "weird" or unsettling in appearance helps create acceptance, which I don't think it often does.

[Flar's Freyja]

I think I know what you are saying, Ben. When I agreed to help establish a pagan community in my small town with a population of just under 13,000 and 101 Christian churches, the problem I spotted was that the person who had unsuccessfully tried to get it going for a year with no response was very militant. She had actually called the office at the public lake and asked if we could burn candles and have knives in our possession! :eek: She also wanted to post flyers around town with very blatant wording. I had to explain to her more than once that this type of behavior could cause a riot or other negative movement. She had an e-list where several people would say that they would attend a meeting but would chicken out at the last minute, understandably so. I suggested that the name of the group be changed to something less blatant and that people dress conservatively when meeting in public.

She followed my suggestions and within two months, we held a public meet and greet at a restaurant where 20 people showed up. The meeting has gone on for over a year now and attendance is steadily increasing.

Laurie Cabot can get away with what she does as her celebrity status brings money to the town where she resides as tourism. In areas such as mine, I agree that this can only hurt even if it just prevents people from getting together. As for flamboyant gay folk - it's interesting that this is not a problem in a city like Tulsa, which is only 30 miles away from us but is not tolerated in our small town.

In the present day, I think that the negative connotations are more dependent upon the local environment than on societal consciousness as a whole.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Rainx
(Lots of great comments omitted for brevity...)
What was acceptable then is much different then from what is now, and what someone's outfit might have said about someone then has also changed dramatically.

That's actually part of my point... things that were unacceptable at one time are now more acceptable, and more visible, because of the willingness of some to be visible and "in your face." In the gay community it was the drag queens at Stonewall in NYC. In the Wiccan community, it was the publicity seeking of people like Gardner and Sanders, and yes, even Laurie Cabot in the 1970s and after, that allowed our faith to "come out of the broomcloset." Would Salem be the way it is today, (gaudiness and all), if it hadn't been for Laurie Cabot's nerve to do what she did back in the 1970s?


Second, the people you mentioned never did "blend into the crowd". Chances are, if you mentioned them to any non Pagan now the person you're talking to would have no clue who or what you're talking about. Thus, while they have certainly had a huge impact on how we practice our religion, they haven't done much to change how the public sees it, at least in that they aren't thought of as the "spokespeople for Pagans" or reliable sources for those who aren't Pagan. In other words, have they helped people who are interested in Paganism find their way? Sure. But have they helped non Pagans accept Pagans?

Whether the "visible ones" who helped us out of the closet are known by the average person today is not really relevant. How many Americans today know anything about the Stonewall riots? Some might have a vague idea that they had something to do with gay rights, but I'd bet not many would be able to tell you that... unless it was a gay or lesbian person, or someone who had studied gay history. And I'd bet there are lots of gays and lesbians today in the US who haven't any idea what the Stonewall riots were about.

The gay community today is benefitting from the visibility of the drag queens at Stonewall, whether we acknowledge it (or if we even know about it) or not.

In their day, Gardner, Sanders, and the ones like them who were seeking publicity were the "visible face" of something that the mainstream didn't know even existed. Now that our community is "out," I think we can certainly move on to a more healthy diversity of representation in that public face. In the gay community example, the average mainstream person doesn't think of just drag queens any more when they think of the gay and lesbian community. It's not too long ago when drag queens were the only visible face. But it does still include the drag queens. I just think our Pagan community shouldn't be so condemning of those who fit the "goth" stereotype either. (And just to reiterate, I'm not in the least bit "goth" myself. I'm more jeans and plain sweaters myself.)

Visibility isn't just about having the mainstream "accept" us, either. It's also about being visible so that those who are part of our far-flung community (or who think they might be but just aren't sure yet) have a place they can start their search. Gardner and those like him helped bring our community together in many ways just through their publicity. Without them, the Pagan community would be a lot fewer, and many of us would likely still be Christian, or perhaps searching for something still.

In the gay community, the drag queens and the places they "hung out" helped catalyze what ended up becoming the "gay neighborhoods." I lived in Toronto, Canada in the gay community there. I'm not convinced that the communities would have existed as visibly as they do if it hadn't been for the drag queens who brought it together at the start, who were visible to the other gays who were looking for places to congregate. Being visible helped bring the community together regardless whether it helped the mainstream learn to accept it or not.


Third, the contributions those people have made had little to do with their outfits and makeup. You started the thread by asking if people who are intentionally shocking create acceptance - those people, while being some of the most important names in Wicca and Paganism, didn't create acceptance by wearing strange outfits. They helped share their beliefs for others by writing and speaking, not by how they looked.

Don't take my response as saying anyone who looks "weird" makes no contribution. In my mind, one's contribution in thought and word is totally unrelated to their appearance. The discussion started in regards to whether being intentionally "weird" or unsettling in appearance helps create acceptance, which I don't think it often does.
I'm not convinced that "shocking," at least at the start, doesn't help. In the gay community example again, the early pride parades were very much "shocking" to the mainstream. They had drag queens, leather daddies, semi-nudity and sometimes complete nudity. They were there. They didn't go away. Year after year, the parades would happen and that visibility resulted in bigger crowds, more events associated with the parade, more people, and yes, more exposure to the mainstream as well. In Toronto (where I have the most experience in the gay community as I lived there for years until quite recently) it's at the point now where the pride parade is one of the biggest events in the city each year. The city has embraced it. The mayor now makes a big deal about being in the parade, and big sponsors have floats and events. It's becoming a pretty mainstream thing now. And the drag queens and leather daddies and the like are still very visible in the parade, but now people are much more accepting. They realize that they're there, but they are not the only public face of the gay and lesbian community any more.

I'm not convinced that Gardner, Sanders, and those like them were able to get the publicity for themselves and our community (which was pretty sparse back then) because they blended in to the crowd. They didn't blend in. And the press ate that up. And yes, they did other things too (like write books, and initiate people who went on to initiate others) but the publicity was a big part of it too.

I just have a nagging doubt that we're not learning from the lessons of history when we make such a fuss within our community about judging people by how they look or express themselves in dress and makeup. It's important to grow past the "shock them!" phase, but I'm not sure it's wise to suppress that part of our community or our public face either. I wouldn't actively encourage it in the media, but they're like the drag queens -- they're there and they aren't likely to go away (nor should they!)

I don't expect anyone to change their minds about whether stereotypical dress helps or hurts our communities. But I do hope to encourage people to think about it, and realize it's not necessarily an easy thing to say "yes" or "no" about.

[kblackthorne]

Ben,

First, let me say that I'm glad you linked the sexaulity-closet and the broom-closet. I have always seen these two as intimately related, though sometimes one or the other seems easier to come out of in certain circumstances.

Acceptance of that which is different is a process of education.

In my experience, it's those over-the-line, embarrassing folks -- the drag queens, the Alex Sanders, the Laurie Cabots, the Ravenwolfs -- who crack the door.

"Gays exist. Pagans exist." This is the necessary first step, and it's the outrageous ones who cause it.

Then, "Gays don't just live far away in San Francisco. Pagans don't just live in Salem."

Then, "There are gays/Pagans in my town."

Then, "You mean Katherine, in Placement, is a bi-sexual Wiccan? Huh... she doesn't seem so weird... "

And the last step is the one that breeds acceptance. Katherine, the real person, who is "normal" and doesn't make them uncomfortable in any way... and then they find out this odd thing about her. But it's just part of who she is.

But without the sensitiziation done by the outrageous ones, it would not work. That door wouldn't be there.


(Hmm... maybe I should try this again when I don't have a cold. THat didn't come out quite as well-explained as I'd like.)

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by kblackthorne But without the sensitiziation done by the outrageous ones, it would not work. That door wouldn't be there.

(Hmm... maybe I should try this again when I don't have a cold. THat didn't come out quite as well-explained as I'd like.)


I think you and I are on the exact same wavelength with this. You've said exactly what I've been trying to say.

We do need the more "normal" Pagans to be publicly visible, too, but I just wanted to point out that those "outrageous" ones did our community a service by doing what they did. In the gay community they've gotten past being embarassed (mostly, from what I've seen anyway) about drag queens. I just hope the Pagan community can do the same when it comes to the "outrageous" ones.

[Raydreamer]

I understand what you're saying....sometimes you need to smack people in the face to get their attention...and what better people to do it than (for example) the Drag queens representing a link with gay people.
Being tall with long (natural mind!) red dreadlocks down to my waist...the words "Hippie" often reach the lips of people who can't contain themselves and have to comment on something different! ;)

[Chibi-Fallon]

I think the main problem with the scary gothic pagans verse drag queens is that drag queens, for the most part, are very nice, fun, and the kind of people you tend to have a good time with (like most gays they are insanely nice people, especially considering all the crap they have to put up with). I mean we all know Angel was the best character in “Rent”. :D
The stereotypical drag queen is a lot more fun then the stereotypical goth. You also don’t associate drag queen with a teenage phase like you do with being goth. Goths you think of you think of black, depressed, bad poems (or other forms of bad art), to cool for the rest of the world. Goths have many more negative connotations. Not only that but what color is just about every single goth, that’s right. White. So having that be the face of Paganism, it shows it off as being white (to scarily white). Whereas with a drag queen, the stereotype can really be any color you want.
No one is a drag queen because it’s the cool thing to do. People act gothic and pretend to be Pagan because that’s what their friends are all doing and they just want to fit in. People don't just stop being drag queens because they "grew out of it".
I can see the connection but I don’t really think they’re going to achieve the same ends. Not unless the idea of what a goth is changes is many peoples minds.
And just as a note, I’m sure that somewhere there are very nice, and black, Asian goths and whatnot. But I’m using what pops into most peoples heads when they think of a goth.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Chibi-Fallon

I think the main problem with the scary gothic pagans verse drag queens is that drag queens, for the most part, are very nice, fun, and the kind of people you tend to have a good time with (like most gays they are insanely nice people, especially considering all the crap they have to put up with). I mean we all know Angel was the best character in ?Rent?. :D

Things have come a long way, though, for gays and lesbians since the Stonewall riots in the late 1960s. It wasn't very long ago that people who admitted they were gay or lesbian, or worse, who dressed in clothes of the "wrong" gender, were arrested and either thrown in jail or committed to mental institutions. Few people would ever willingly associate (let alone be seen publicly) with a drag queen.

The fact that drag queens are seen as "cool" to hang out with or be friends with now says a lot about how far we've come with gay acceptance. I wonder if the same sort of thing will be the case with Pagans (goths and all) in ten or twenty years.

(Oh, and by the way -- there is a difference between drag queens who dress as they do because they enjoy it and often DO feel it's "cool" among their circle of friends, and those who are transgendered who dress the way they do because that is the gender they actually identify with.)

[Rainx]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
That's actually part of my point... things that were unacceptable at one time are now more acceptable, and more visible, because of the willingness of some to be visible and "in your face."[/b]

Uhm. Not really. A lot of the things that have changed in regards to fashion has been due to women's rights movement, that and drugs and hippies ;)


Would Salem be the way it is today, (gaudiness and all), if it hadn't been for Laurie Cabot's nerve to do what she did back in the 1970s?

You'd have to ask someone who knew anything about Salem.


Whether the "visible ones" who helped us out of the closet are known by the average person today is not really relevant.

Isn't it, considering you're discussing whether things have become more acceptable in society because of them? Isn't society composed of "average people"? Maybe I'm missing your point entirely?


How many Americans today know anything about the Stonewall riots?

You'd have to ask an American.


Now that our community is "out,"

Who says it is? Maybe it's because I come from hayseed country, but mention witch and you're liable to get laughed at and told those only exist in fairytales. Mention occultism or new age and you're liable to get a strange look and be left with a person who thinks you're an alien.


In the gay community example, the average mainstream person doesn't think of just drag queens any more when they think of the gay and lesbian community.

Again, maybe the hayseed country thing, but that's not what I've seen here. And it's not a matter of discrimination or disrespect as much as a total lack of knowledge of what "Pagan" might mean.


I just think our Pagan community shouldn't be so condemning of those who fit the "goth" stereotype either.

Well, I don't usually condemn anyone, mostly because it's usually a) a waste of my time and b) not worthwhile. Condemnation, as a whole, usually doesn't get you far.


Gardner and those like him helped bring our community together in many ways just through their publicity.

That could go back to the "and that was awhile ago, here we are in the 21st century now.." discussion.


Being visible helped bring the community together regardless whether it helped the mainstream learn to accept it or not.

And people who aren't flamboyant aren't visible? I think there's a lot to be said for people who simply wear a pentacle, at least in terms of Paganism. No need for 6lbs of makeup and metal, black clothing and the whole bit, I can spot a pentacle or other pagan symbol a mile away (ok, at least a few feet).

As to your parallels with the gay community - that's something I always stay away from, not because I have a problem with it, but because I'm not gay, therefore I have no idea what being gay is like. I'm not sure it is a fair connection to draw either, but I just don't know.


And yes, they did other things too (like write books, and initiate people who went on to initiate others) but the publicity was a big part of it too.

Sorry, don't agree with you.


I just have a nagging doubt that we're not learning from the lessons of history when we make such a fuss within our community about judging people by how they look or express themselves in dress and makeup.

The problem here is many people who do the "shock thing" don't have a clue about Paganism, and are just trying to rebel and "be unique". A lot of these people aren't the ones who should be telling people about Paganism anymore. And why? Because most of Paganism isn't about dressing up as a goth and scaring the hell out of people. What do people think when they see a goth on the street? 99% of the time they either want to stay away from the person, or think it's some nutbar teenager who's rebelling against society. 99% of the time "pagan" isn't even going to enter their mind. As to how many of those goths are serious and are just expressing themself, I have no clue. The ones who aren't, though, are usually the loudest, and usually make a point of trying to intimidate people.

I can just imagine a goth walking down the street in my hometown. Hah! Believe me, no one would be interested in their spirituality, or probably believe they had one for that matter.

I've got nothing against anyone, and in fact don't give a poop what anyone wears or does. Judging people, again, is a waste of time, IMHO. Honestly, as impossible as it is, I really wish people concentrated more on life and living it and less on what someone's wearing or what it says.

[IsisErin]

Note: none of this is meant to offend anyone.

I don't feel that those goth kids that hang out next to the shopping centre, who wear pentacles although they'd be hard pushed to tell you what the symbol they wear means, who talk about the dark levitation spells they did last weekend in the neighbouring graveyard, are the best representatives of paganism. Unfortunately they are the ones that get noticed. I don't think they give us a very good name.

And although we don't see any around here, I don't feel the people who go around wearing ritual robes and go out of their way to be outrageous are either - the general public do just think they are weird. I'm sure Laurie Cabot and the others mentioned did a lot to raise general awareness of paganism, but to the average Joe they probably look like lunatics.

I think that these days, a lot of the pagans who are changing things are the ones that are like you and me. Perhaps the mum-of-two who runs your local pagan shop, who wears jeans, a t-shirt and a triple goddess symbol pendant to work and has to take on a part-time employee to cover weekends so she can go and watch her son play soccer, maybe have some coffee with other mums. The student who practices his beliefs in private but when asked is glad to tell you he's a Wiccan. It doesn't seem quite so bad when your law-abiding, funny and caring friend decides to drop the 'I'm a pagan' bombshell. Suddenly you think 'these are people like you and me.'

It's the same with gays. Different sexuality scares some people. But when they find out that Lesley at number 56 is lesbian, it's closer to home.

I've just realised that I'm echoing some of what kblackthorne said earlier on in this thread. But this is what I think, too.

Edit: Just in case I came across the wrong way, I'd like to add that I have absolutely nothing against people who dress in a Gothic style, my best friend's dress sense veers between Gothic and... I think she calls it cyber-punk! She is not a pagan, and actually doesn't know that I am, not that that makes any difference.

[SagaDraco]

Why be so concerned about it really? Sure, I'd love to kick some crystal-clad robed weirdo in the teeth, and yes most of those goth types are a walking arse-kicking magnet waiting to happen, but.....at the end of the day, I am still just a conservatively dressed person who happens to be Pagan. While the fad-types could be punks next week, perhaps born-again Christians for a month, then be a militant homosexual vegan for a day, then perhaps a Hasidic Jew who happens to be a smack-talking crime fighting detective in Autumn. Some people change beliefs faster than South American countries do governments. Screw 'em!

[Rainx]

Originally posted by SagaDraco
at the end of the day, I am still just a conservatively dressed person who happens to be Pagan.

*nods* If I wore black one day as a teen my mom would look at me skeptically and ask me if I was entering "THAT phase"; she'd seen a few cousins of mine go into it.

When I started wearing a pentacle and carrying spirituality books around, and having intelligent conversations about beliefs, that's when acceptance and understanding came through.

I think for me, what you wear and your shocking appearance aren't equitable to your beliefs - wearing the right clothes and jewelry don't make you a good representative of Paganism or even Pagan. When people see goth they don't think "polytheistic open-minded nature based religion", they think teenage angst.

[kblackthorne]

But it's not just being "goth".

If I walk into one more "Open Pagan Gathering" and see a bunch of Ren-Faire refugees....

Don't get me wrong -- I used to do SCA, followed by the occasional Faire. You should see some of the garb I've made.

But the folks who seem like they're "Pagan" just so they can play dress-up...

(Yes, I went to such a gathering this weekend. It was filled with Ren-Faire clothes, bad theology, and worse herbalism... one fellow offering us a drink of an herbal concoction that's going to get him dead in a few years. There seemed to be one or two competent people present, but 0 energy, very little actual knowledge, and more of a desire to be dressed up & different than anything else. ~sigh~ I really need to do something about this, but I'm not ready yet.)

[*GrumpButt*]

I am a jeans and tee shirt gal!
I do have a pent charm thingiew I wear all the time, but most people do not know what it is i think! lol
see it here
http://store.stormsong.org/cart/product.php/2585/83/

Nice ehh?

And I am wating for a pent ring and some cute lil ear rings. But I do not dress in the gothy way or anything like that. No make up, not even the normal kind lol.

[Bainidhe Dub]

Me, I'm a jeans/T shirt kind of gal too. I despise dressing up. I'd much rather be out with the animals or browsing books. It seems to me that dressing up to the degre that some do just takes up too much time, when you can be doing something much more worth while.

I do have a couple of pieces of jewelry I wear, but hell, I live so close to Chicago, no one cares lol.

[AnnieBW]

I like to joke that "I was Pagan when Pagan wasn't cool.":D I get
a little tired of the folks who are only into Paganism for the shock
value. I've found that, a lot of times, people who don't advertise
that they're Witches tend to be the most powerful. Or, at least, you
need to listen to them more than the ones that are in your face
about it.

- Annie

[DebLipp]

I think a lot of people over-estimate the importance of Pagans in the public eye. The fact is most of them WON'T REMEMBER what kind of makeup the Witch on TV was wearing. The value is if they remember it at all. The value is subliminal.

I think the drag queen analogy is important, but it only goes so far. Many drag queens are expressing something they feel is intrinsic to their sexual identity, whereas I don't think the Laurie Cabots of the world can relate their style that closely to their religious convictions.

Still, my position is and has always been I don't care. If they're doing the work, if they're stumping for religious freedom and giving back to their community, then whatever they look like is just that...whatever.

And I should add, Annie may have been Pagan before Pagan was cool, but I was also tattooed before tattooed was cool. When I started getting tattooed, the only "identification" of tattooing was bikers and sailors. I guess nowadays it does definitely identify me as the weird one. I used to always wear a pentagram, but I don't anymore. Still, by now, everyone who knows me knows I'm a Witch (and a Wiccan, those fine points aren't important to the outside world).

The truth is, you can look as weird as you want, if you're "normal" in your community; if you go to back to school night and bring potato salad to the block party and bring a casserole to the new neighbors, you can be accepted as normal by that community. And if you're accepted AND out, then you've contributed.

[Kadynas]

I pretty much just wear jeans... My shirts are mostly black & gray but that's not because I'm a Pagan just because I'm trying to camoflague an extra 10 pounds! :lol: I have one necklace I wear everyday...it's alsomy new avatar pic... I know some people tend to find such necklaces kinda cheesy (the whole fake metal, red crystal thing), but to tell the truth I just /love/ the design. (The stone in the middle is actually one of those rainbow-looking ones... the lady who sold it to me on ebay must've been using the wrong pic!) If I could ever find it in sterling silver I'd be thrilled. (Cappy's Lair has one but it's gold and the bigger star is inverted rather than upright light mine...) But other than that I'll wear an actual pentacle on Sabbats just to see if there's any more pagans in my area. :) I look more like a redneck than a Pagan! :lol:
I don't have a problem with any of the more "flamboyant" members of our group... And as for fluffy bunnies, I'd rather have people think I'm a new-age flakey than thinking I worship the Christian Satan (as opposed to actual Satanists, who believe in different things entirely. :) ) or do blood sacrifice. Also have to remember that not all Goths are Pagans... for some it is just a fashion decision: that's how they like to look. For others it's simply a way of feeling connected to the romanticism of the era... and some are just really into vampires! :lol:
Another thing to keep in mind is that noone can give us a bad name but ourselves... Just as one Christian does not represent /everyone/ who practices Christianity, so too does no one Goth, Witch or fluffy bunny represent everyone who considers themselves a Pagan. In fact Pagans have an even wider ranges of beliefs to contend with... for anyone to think that Laurie Cabot is going to give us /all/ a bad name is just ridiculous. It's almost like saying "Oh I know how gay people are...I watch Will & Grace!" And while I'm sure some people have been confronted with this kind of ignorance, I like to think the best of people and give them the benefit of the doubt...
And I think I've just successfully managed to ramble on for 3 paragraphs without any real point! :lol: Just my random mumblings... still waking up here. :)

[Flappersquirrel]

Glad you rambled, Kadynas. You pretty much covered what I wanted to say.
Most of my friends were the goth crowd back in highschool and college and I think one was actually pagan. The rest were atheists and christians. And the sweetest bunch of big scary looking brothers a gal could have. And growing up with my dad and his rocker and biker friends and my mom and her crazy hippy friends, I guess I'm just used to people who don't conform. It's kind of a comforting thing to be around people who were their insides on their outside. Normal clothed people make me nervous. I can't figure who they are, considering most are just as conservative in conversation as well as clothing. Kind of odd to me. I can't help but feel like they're hiding something. I'm prolly just being silly, but it's still hard to get used to.
Of course, if I just smile and be my sweet polite self to everyone, I generally get treated well back, no matter what oddity I'm wearing around that day.
Hmm, talk about rambling with no point. I think I had one earlier, but it's gone now. Oh well.

[Heathen Dawn]

There’s a time and place to keep silence or to make public, and for me, as a first-year college student, the time is to keep silence. The last thing I need is a prejudiced professor lowering my grades after knowing I’m pagan. When I get my PhD I’ll have nothing more to fear and then I can become public about my paganism.

[malltynos]

agreed: none of this is meant to offend either. As a person with an obvious disability, I really don't need to draw attention to myself. I don't want my disability to be the focus of any snap judgement,and would rather be known for what I do. Most of the pagans I know dress as I do - jeans, tees,sweaters etc. I work with nature, scavenging for dye plants or foodstuffs, and also with sheep fleece and fur,so there's no point dressing up for that! As for the Gardners and Sanders (Alex was a welsh guy remember) well,while they were busy getting naked for the tabloids, most pagans like Marian Green and Paddy Slade were quietly getting on with educating people as to what witches really ' do.' Now some of my friends are goths, some are pagan, some are gay and some disabled. But appearances don't really matter and that's how it should be. I've also had the reverse happen, where I went to an Inkubus Sukkubus gig dressed in dark green without dyed hair, tattoos and makeup and nearly didn't get in! Go figure...

[nighstar]

.... i wish society didn't equate "goths" with paganism because they have no relation whatsoever....

but on flamboyancy... it does kind of get to me, but only because i know whenever someone sees what that person's wearing they automaticly assume-- not just about that person either, but about groups of people...

i hate the assumptions, not the flamboyant people.

[morrigen]

.... i wish society didn't equate "goths" with paganism because they have no relation whatsoever....

I am a 32 year old. I have been a very flamboyant goth since I was 14. I have been a pagan since I was 15.

My choice of religion, and my choice of subculture are completely *unrelated*

That people assume I'm pagan because I'm a goth.....or a goth because I'm a pagan is irritating...however in the minds of those that don't have an understanding of either situation, the two seem inextricably intertwined.

I'd also like to point out, that while non-goths assume it's a teenage thing, I'd like to point out that I know a *heap* of people, who I have known for years, who are goth, and are all between 25 and 55. And the 55 year old runs our city's goth niteclub!

Unless you're wearing ritual robes when you leave the house, your clothing isn't really an expression of your religion. Yes, I attract looks, complements and derision when I go out, but I'm not "dressed as a pagan"....I'm dressed like a goth, wearing clothes that make me happy, etc....

's got nothing to do with my religion..... :)

[Aominay]

Ummm...I've never really seen where people have connected goth dressing with pagan spirituality. I just haven't thought about it. I think the way a person dresses is a matter of personal preference, though I do understand that some people dress for shock factor. And to be honest, I have been shocked a few times ... Those that state who they are by way of appearance because, well, that's who they are and what they like, they don't give a damn what you think or how you react--that's your problem, not their's.

But, having read through all the posts, I do get where Ben was heading. These out there, in-your-face folks really did crack the door for mainstream society to open their eyes to alternate ways of living and being, so those who are critical of the pioneers need to simmer down a bit and realize that they might not have had the opportunities they've had in walking an alternate path if not for the very people they criticize. The pioneers put themselves out there whether people liked it or not, and there is something to be said for their courage to stand out and be ridiculed.

To be perfectly honest, I think it's pretty ignorant and arrogant for people to expect respect for their attitudes, beliefs and opinions when they show no respect through their actions of ridicule towards others. You've got to give respect to get it.

[Klucky]

:bigredblu I've been personally called a goth one too many times. I don't find myself to be one, however, I've heard that only people who dress in black and don't call themselves goths are goths. So now I'm confused. If I ever seem arrogant or "holier than thou", please tell me. I know I must irritate some of you. I'm a sixteen year old female Wiccan who apparently looks like a goth.

I never realized this until now, but I'm such a cliche. :wah:

-Klucky

[aftershocked]

For the original question, I agree with the 'be yourself: nothing more, nothing less' statement. But I also think that if yourself is the gawdy, 15 pentacle, 20 piercing pagan (No offense, I personally feel inclined, but an't because of social issues), then you should be prepared to deal with the repercussions of that. I, personally, dress as an 'average' high school girl. Jeans most of the time, band t-shirts, skate hoodies and whatnot. I also do henna and wear an ankh. If someone asks, I'll explain them. But it took my best friend 3 years after I had converted to realize I was pagan; I never considered it something to be discussed.

I think it's very unfortunate that everyone thinks that teens are only 'into' paganism because they want to piss off their parents. I'll be the first to tell you that was my first intention. But it never got that far; as soon as I began to study it, I realized that it was how I felt, and that it shouldn't be used to smite my parents. I understand that there is a vocal majority of young pagans in it because of media and mystery, but I think you should wait before passing that judgement. Please? :sadeyes:

*edit*
Sorry about the whining in the above paragraph. I was angered because of a little scurmish I got in with the local metaphysical shop owner over one of my friends who she doesn't care for. :rolleyes:

[Aominay]

For the original question, I agree with the 'be yourself: nothing more, nothing less' statement. But I also think that if yourself is the gawdy, 15 pentacle, 20 piercing pagan (No offense, I personally feel inclined, but an't because of social issues), then you should be prepared to deal with the repercussions of that. I, personally, dress as an 'average' high school girl. Jeans most of the time, band t-shirts, skate hoodies and whatnot. I also do henna and wear an ankh. If someone asks, I'll explain them. But it took my best friend 3 years after I had converted to realize I was pagan; I never considered it something to be discussed.

I think it's very unfortunate that everyone thinks that teens are only 'into' paganism because they want to piss off their parents. I'll be the first to tell you that was my first intention. But it never got that far; as soon as I began to study it, I realized that it was how I felt, and that it shouldn't be used to smite my parents. I understand that there is a vocal majority of young pagans in it because of media and mystery, but I think you should wait before passing that judgement. Please? :sadeyes:

*edit*
Sorry about the whining in the above paragraph. I was angered because of a little scurmish I got in with the local metaphysical shop owner over one of my friends who she doesn't care for. :rolleyes:

You made a good point about people stereotyping teens as not being serious. Like with any other stereotyped group, it's true to some degree, but definately does not capture the essence of what each person is about. It's like saying that a teen doesn't know how to truly love someone, which is a bunch of BS.

In my opinion, I don't feel that one person can criticize another in how they perceive spirituality and deity, and one's motives behind it. There are many that don't have a genuine interest in the spiritual side of Paganism and are just going for shock value, but honestly, why do people really care? Because they want to control how they, themselves, are viewed perhaps?

To me, a truly open person will not feel threatened by someone's less than genuine interest in a Pagan spirituality. Many times that less than genuine interest, like in your case, will evolve into a GENUINE interest, if they're not scared off first by people who are judging them. Congratulations on sticking to your guns Aftershocked!

[Gareth]

The whole idea of flamboyancy is sometimes very nerve racking.

Take Kevin Carolyn for example.
He claims to have hidden the Loch Ness Monster from public view by casting a spell.
Then turned around and 'undid' the spell so there would be more sightings.

I personally believe that there is no monster in that lake, therefore Kevin is a crackpot! (imo)
I also know that some members of this forum would agree with that.
Some won't.

Being openly pagan is one thing, flamboyancy is something completely different.

[Klucky]

The whole idea of flamboyancy is sometimes very nerve racking.

Take Kevin Carolyn for example.
He claims to have hidden the Loch Ness Monster from public view by casting a spell.
Then turned around and 'undid' the spell so there would be more sightings.

I personally believe that there is no monster in that lake, therefore Kevin is a crackpot! (imo)
I also know that some members of this forum would agree with that.
Some won't.

Being openly pagan is one thing, flamboyancy is something completely different.

Ah, yes, I remember that one. Stupid, in my opinion. However, I believe in Nessie. :)

-Klucky

[morrigen]

The whole idea of flamboyancy is sometimes very nerve racking.

Take Kevin Carolyn for example.
He claims to have hidden the Loch Ness Monster from public view by casting a spell.
Then turned around and 'undid' the spell so there would be more sightings.

I personally believe that there is no monster in that lake, therefore Kevin is a crackpot! (imo)
I also know that some members of this forum would agree with that.
Some won't.

Being openly pagan is one thing, flamboyancy is something completely different.

That is a bit nerve wracking....I'd not heard of this before. He sounds a bit....odd.

I guesss what I meant by flamboyant was not a "pushing my views on people" kinda thing...more a "being myself and letting others alone" kinda thing.

And maybe there's a fine line between the two.

But then again, I love eccentricity....

Am I making sense? :hehehehe:

[Klucky]

That is a bit nerve wracking....I'd not heard of this before. He sounds a bit....odd.

I guesss what I meant by flamboyant was not a "pushing my views on people" kinda thing...more a "being myself and letting others alone" kinda thing.

And maybe there's a fine line between the two.

But then again, I love eccentricity....

Am I making sense? :hehehehe:

Here are some links.

http://www.joestoner.com/news/archives/000098.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/lochness010424.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_2991000/2991842.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/2981386.stm

http://www.kevwitch.co.uk/lochness2003.html

-Klucky

[morrigen]

Thanks Klucky.

Y'know I'm just not sure *what* to make of that!

But now I know. :)

[Klucky]

Thanks Klucky.

Y'know I'm just not sure *what* to make of that!

But now I know. :)

Yeah, that guy is what makes us witches look stupid. :lol:

-Klucky

[Cappy]

I realy don't care if someone chooses to "stand out", be it in the gay community or the pagan community. I have a lot of friends in both and I find that they are great people who happen to be comfortable looking different. I'm not goth because I don't feel I need to (and I can't afford all the make up :lol: ) but if someone else wants to, that's up to them.

[Lady Avalon]

Hi All,

I am so glad I live in New Orleans. We see goths all the time. As a matter of fact, they do not attract much attention from anyone but the tourist.

I have a collection of T-shirts with Witchy sayings like: Stop By For a Spell, Born Again Wiccan, and Are you a good witch or a bad witch. There are a lot more. I also wear my pentacle any time I want and I don't hide it. I also have the Pentagram of The Balck Rose of Avalon tatooed on my chest. Many people have seen it and like it very much.

As a High Priestess, I will have many other sacred tats added. My tat artist are a husband and wife team. She is Wiccan (like me) and he is and Elder of the International High Council of Druids.

I don't dress goth. I wear Witchy clothing for Samhain for the fun of it. My friends get a kick out of the fact that I am the only person dressed normally on Samhain. Only the unenlightened think I am in costume.

My favoirte outfit got me a part in the movie Runaway Jury. Yes, that's me as an extra and my clothing came from my closet. It was fun.

I was born and raised in Akron Ohio, and I know what it's like to live in The Witches Closet. It was no fun.

Here in the Big Easy, life for all of us is open, free, and joyous. My gay friends don't live in a closet. We all love our drag quessns. Every Labor Day weekend is the Gay Mardi Gras. It's also called Southern Decadence. It's a blast.

Every year we have many festivals including Witch Fest, VooDoo Fest and Jazz Fest. We love a good party here in New Orleans.

Any and all of you should come to New Orleans. This is a great place to discover your freedom.

Blessed Be,

Lady Avalon

[heartandrose]

I totally hate the goth look being associated with witchcraft, I never even liked those stupid pointy witch hats. LOL, I used to dress up as a witch occasionally when I was young. (for halloween) Anyway, since my understanding of witchcraft took shape I quickly started thinking of witches as maybe these New Agers, if not normally dressed like me. Sometimes New Agers will wear light and airy clothing and crystals. Anyway, I think alot of teens will start dressing goth if they get into the witchcraft or even Satanism, and totally combine it to make us look bad.

[rosencruez]

Regarding the original post about appearances ...

Be yourself _vb_ . Dress in a manner that expresses you ... wherever that takes you.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

As long as we have serious and intelligent Wiccans who just *happen* to dress in diaphanous flowing black skirts made of cobweb lace, wearing a touch of kohl, and possessed of long, dark flowing hair, well, I won't complain *too* much, a-ha.
I admit that I do tend towards mostly black shirts. Two have paganish sayings on them - Ankh If You Love Isis and Cthulhu Ftaghn -that I made myself. I wear my toonie-sized pentacle openly because my ankh necklace mysteriously vanished at Gander Airport, and I did so even when living for a few months in a north Alberta town of 5000 which had 20 churches, at which time I worked at a Catholic school. Admittedly, after my first week of working there, the principal asked me not to wear it, a request with which I complied. Why? because it was a Catholic school, I was a full-time volunteer, and I wanted to a: respect their wishes and b: not kick up a fuss and make Wiccans look bad. Still, it had made its impression, and after one of the people I was living with leaked to some of the schoolkids that I was Wiccan, I was soon surrounded by hordes of kids asking me about it.
It did not seem to make any difference at all - the principal was terrified of me, it was obvious, and although she made life difficult at times, I always treated her with utmost courtesy and it was only after a long, trying, and difficult problem with some of the students that I thought of bluntly asking her if she thought I was going to blast her crops, blight her cattle, or eat her children.
The wierdo Goth witchlings have to be taken on a one-by-one basis, otherwise they can all get tarred with the same brush, and it's sad when that happens.
Besides, if they ARE intelligent Wiccans who just happen to dress like Morticia Addams - and can pull it off! - then I think we can let them be. ;)

[desolationangel]

As this is my first post (just had to respond here), my opinion probably isn't worth anything, but here goes.

I'm a goth. I'm also a pagan. (Not really Wiccan; at the moment I'm looking at Kemetic belief). At ay rate, I was goth looong before I was pagan. I was goth when I was Christian, and goth when I was an atheist. It really doesn't have anything to do with my spirituality. I love the aesthetic. However, it is a lot of work, so some days I'm goth, and other days I'm just the dark-haired girl in the band t-shirt. *shrug*

I had to post to this thread because of the misconceptions surrounding goths. Most self-respecting goths do not consider the teenagers hanging out at the mall all in black with hazardous jewelry to be goth. They're more metalheads, usually. My goth aesthetic is Victorian influenced, and to me it's no different dressing like Morticia to go out than it is when I dress in vinyl and fishnets to go to Rocky Horror. I love costumes, I've been involved in theatre. I'm not trying to shock or rebel against anything (my mother has been known to pick out black lace shirts for my birthday).

The stereotype that one cannot be a legitimate artist while being a goth is also annoying. I'm a creative writing major; I make A's in Honors College poetry and fiction courses, so apparently at least a few published authors think my work is decent. At the very least, it's not all melancholy and tombstones.

I'm not a teenager either.

I guess what I'm saying is, just because I like bats and vampires doesn't mean I don't also like sunshine and tambourines. It doesn't mean I'm depressed-- in fact I'm happy, in part because of it... just as people should not generalize about pagans, they shouldn't generalize about goths either. I certainly hope I don't give pagans a bad name.

Anyway, I look forward to posting more!

[Philosophia]

Okay, I wear black clothing, black skirts, black t-shirts, etc.. I wear clothes I'm comfortable in but if that makes me goth than so be it.
What I don't like is everyone assuming that Goth is just a fad, a nuisance, etc. and that people who do wear black clothing somehow diminishes their "witchiness".
Nobody can make anybody look "stupid". If they did, its usually because we're unsure of ourselves and what we wear.