working with Morgan Le Fay?

[Brynhild Tudor]

Most people don't see her as a deity and neither do I but I have an affinity so work with her anyway. While trying to find others of like mind, I came across a post on another board from Discorian Kitten, who refrained from telling a long story of how she/he met her, which I very much wanted to hear, so I PMed this person but got no response. Does Discordian Kitten frequent this board? I thought I saw the name here at Mysticwicks.

Love all your deity stories. Keep 'em coming!
Brynhild

[Tiberias]

Out of mild curiosity, what do you know about Morgan Le Fay? The first time I came across the name was in Le Morte d'Arthur, and I think that my subsequent views of her are spectacularly different from someone who, for instance, first comes across her in Mists of Avalon. As a result, I find it hard to imagine having an "affinity" with her, but that may just be me.

[Brynhild Tudor]

Oh, the name jumped out at me in a book catalog I was reading many years ago. All my patrons were found that way. I'll like the way a name looks on a page, something will click, and I'll research the name later. That way, I'm not influenced.

Morgan's portrayed as evil, or at least discontented, in medieval Arthurian legend and beyond, but something told me they had it all wrong. I read Mists of Avalon, but found it too dark, although the names of 2 more patrons jumped out at me from there. I read "I Am Morgan Le Fay: a Tale from Camelot" but that was wrong, too, and too childishly dramatic. People equated her with the Irish goddess, but something told me that was wrong, too.

Anyway, the only author I felt to be accurate of Morgan was Geffrey of Monmouth. She's just a healer and shape-shifter in Avalon, that's all. And I met her in a dream, and she's very nice, not like any of the books say. So that told me books are wrong. But nobody believes me, so I keep quiet about it, but it gets lonely, being the only one. So when I saw that someone had experiences with her, I wanted to hear those. And it's nice to have company.
Brynhild

[ClareJulissa]

I'm slightly ashamed to admit pretty much the only experience I have with Morgan is the Magic Tree House series I read when I was ten.

But I will say that in those books, she was portrayed as a wise and intelligent woman with a good deal of power.

[Brynhild Tudor]

I read the Magic Tree House series too, only the books with her in them. I just read the parts she was in them. I don't think that's a shameful thing at all. I like her, and her accurate portrayal in those books. Brynhild

[Micheál]

(Just saying) I don't know if it's playing in the U.S, but there's a new t.v series called Camelot that was filmed in Ireland. Merlin and Morgan are pretty dark&bad @ss in it, and it's about time we had a version packed with profanity, violence, nudity, and magic :hahugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CALdezlTn4&feature=player_embedded
It can be viewed on Channel 4's website (Uk) if interested for the time being.

As mentioned, Morgan le Fay is a literacy character, so I don't know how she can be acknowledged as an entity or Goddess(she has no relation to the Irish Morrigan/An Mhór-Ríoghain). Perhaps she's symbolic for the sort of characteristics and emotions you associate with her.

[~Runa~]

If you're interested in Morgan le Fay, maybe you should look into the origins. What I can tell you is that she's the half sister of Arthur, and is considered a sorceress. The name "Morgan le Fay" means "Morgan the Faery". She is possibly connected to the Morrigan, a triple goddess in Celtic myth. The Morrigan have also been considered more than one, and are said to be the Celtic version of the Norse Valkyria as they too appeared on battlefields to collect souls of fallen warriors.

Have a look at these pages about her.
http://www.arthurian-legend.com/more-about/more-about-arthur-8.php
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/morgmenu.htm

Look for "King Arthur's Enchantresses" by Carolyne Larrington

[Brynhild Tudor]

As I mentioned, I met her (so she's not fictional), half the literature is inaccurate about her (except for the healer part), and she's not remotely related to the Irish goddess (she's Welsh). I was just wondering if anyone's actually met her, had interactions with her, worked with her, wanted to discuss details or trade stories. I read about one person who had, and I was just wondering if this person frequented this board, because I private messaged but got no response.

Also, I find it interesting that deities exist (when those deities are in literature), but people say Merlin and Morgan don't exist, or are considered *literary characters* (who are written about in literature.) Um, who gets to decide which literature is acceptable in terms of whether entities exist? I understand about literature inaccuracies if you've met the person being written about. But to tell someone "this person doesn't exist, is a fictional character" and then "my deities exist, it's in the mythology"... um, mythology is literature. The Bible *is* mythology, as someone pointed out to me many years ago, and myth is literature. So what gives anyone the right to say "Athena exists but Merlin doesn't", for example, when they're both being written about? If someone met Merlin tomorrow, he wouldn't be fictional, would he? Because you'd have to admit he exists, since you met him.
Brynhild

[Micheál]

Also, I find it interesting that deities exist (when those deities are in literature), but people say Merlin and Morgan don't exist, or are considered *literary characters* (who are written about in literature.) Um, who gets to decide which literature is acceptable in terms of whether entities exist? I understand about literature inaccuracies if you've met the person being written about. But to tell someone "this person doesn't exist, is a fictional character" and then "my deities exist, it's in the mythology"... um, mythology is literature. The Bible *is* mythology, as someone pointed out to me many years ago, and myth is literature. So what gives anyone the right to say "Athena exists but Merlin doesn't", for example, when they're both being written about? If someone met Merlin tomorrow, he wouldn't be fictional, would he? Because you'd have to admit he exists, since you met him.
Brynhild
The thing is, however, that the Gods aren't their myths. Mythology is just fictional stories with the Gods functioning as characters, just like the Irish Tuatha Dé Dannan for example. The TDD is also a literacy creation, in which we see historic deities taken out of context, from actual tribes that would have often been at war with each-other, functioning in unison as one codified pantheon, which Ireland didn't historically have being tribal. (Thanks to the Christian monks aware of Greek myths) The legends shouldn't be interpreted literally because of this, and the deities involved can be considered real because they were historically acknowledged as such, and sometimes even believed to be great tribal ancestors.The legends and folklore do howeverprovide a window into the mindset of the culture involved, and possible interpretation of the attitudes towards their beliefs.

Merlin is actually a character whose original incarnation was as the Welsh god Gwydion. Over time as language evolved, his name changed from Gwydion, to Myrddin, Merddin, and finally Merlin.

Your personal gnosis is your own, and what's true to you. What might make it different for others is whether or not they try weighing their gnosis with historic attributes, which again is personal. There are always possibilities yet to be discovered, but gnosis also cannot negate facts.

[~Runa~]

As I mentioned, I met her (so she's not fictional), half the literature is inaccurate about her (except for the healer part), and she's not remotely related to the Irish goddess (she's Welsh).

You actually dreamt of Morgan le Fay and this could've been many things, symbolism or psychic and spiritual. Explain what happened in your dream about her? How did she introduce herself?

The other is that Morgan le Fay that we know is based on lots of literature and is more distant from the mythological roots.


Also, I find it interesting that deities exist (when those deities are in literature), but people say Merlin and Morgan don't exist, or are considered *literary characters* (who are written about in literature.) Um, who gets to decide which literature is acceptable in terms of whether entities exist?Stories in myths about the gods ect were known long before they were written about. The Arthurian legend is more than a tale of "medieval romance". Most of it is literature and some of it, once broken down, has it's roots in pre-christian myth. The fairy tale favourites like "Snow White" and "Sleeping Beauty" are recent stories that are linked in Norse mythology. If you encountered Cinderella then you might've been interacting with something, the possibilities and theories could be anything.


So what gives anyone the right to say "Athena exists but Merlin doesn't", for example, when they're both being written about? If someone met Merlin tomorrow, he wouldn't be fictional, would he? Because you'd have to admit he exists, since you met him.
BrynhildI can't say Merlin doesn't exist as I've never said that. I believe Merlin does exist, in a way. I think he's as aspect of the All Father god Odin but others may have alternative views to mine.

[Brynhild Tudor]

She was just in the dream, don't know how she got there. She was having me float from one side of a car to another so I would not be scared when I died. Of how it felt. She was very nice.

I'm a hard polytheist. I see entities like Merlin and Gwydion as separate, distinct beings. Not aspects, archetypes, symbolism or psychological constructs. I seem to be the only hard polytheist on this board.

The intent of my original post was not to debate how one sees deities, or question an entity's existence. The intent simply was, "I met this entity and know she exists, just as you meet your deities and know they exist. Anyone else have any experiences with her?" Because I seem to be the only one who's actually met her. Everyone else says, "oh, this is who she is" and base it off of literature rather than personal connections with her, and I was just wondering if anyone had UPG with her, which may or may not line up with the literature.

And how someone met her but said the story was too long to tell, I was a bit disappointed because I wanted to hear it. I saw the person was a part of this community and wanted to know if they frequented this board, that's all. I am trying to be as clear as I can, but nobody seems to understand what I am asking.

Perhaps I should have been more clear and asked for responses from hard polytheists.

Brynhild

[Micheál]

I'm a hard polytheist. I see entities like Merlin and Gwydion as separate, distinct beings. Not aspects, archetypes, symbolism or psychological constructs. I seem to be the only hard polytheist on this board.


Brynhild
I wouldn't be so sure about that. That's a big generalisation to assume. It hasn't been stated that Merlin is an 'aspect' of Gwydion, according to historians they are the same being, and that has nothing to do with paganism, or someone's flavour of polytheism. Going back to 3000BCE, it is the myth that Gwydion created the granges in what is now Great Britain, and flew the stones over from Ireland to create Stonehenge. Over time his name evolved, as language did, from Gwydion, to Myrddin, Merddin and now the Merlin you believe to be a separate entity. Different variations of the same name, and titles, is a common occurrence with Celtic deities, which again has nothing to do with what contemporary pagans believe. I base my opinions on academia, and beliefs of university professors persuade me a little more than someone's gnosis about a literacy character.

I don't think those of us responding are looking for a debate either, but are trying to aid your enquiry. If you feel your beliefs are being challenged, then it shouldn't matter if you're basing your belief on your own gnosis, however if you're going to make such assumptions as Gwydion and Merlin being different entities, I would sure like to see a few reasons and sources.

[Agaliha]

I seem to be the only hard polytheist on this board.


That's news to me. :foh: There are plenty of hard polytheists here. Not everyone thinks all the gods are part of The God and Goddess or some other configuration. I see the gods as distinct, yet sharing traits. For example, Indra and Zeus share various traits, functions and whatnot, but I don't think Indra is Zeus or that in a ritual, one could use their names interchangeably. Many people on MW believe the same thing. Though I'm not sure the soft vs hard polytheist view even factors into what's going on in this thread...

I do understand your frustration, you wanted UPG stories/etc and you didn't get that. I've had similar thread issues in the past, like when I wanted to discuss my thoughts of Medusa being a deity, etc. But since you did post this publicly, regardless of what answer you wanted, people are free to but in and share their view/opinion. We (Admins) don't intervene unless rules are broken or in certain circumstances. Many people have learned this from experience, even I have. You don't always get what you want in a thread, LOL. Sometimes you post a thread and one little blip gets focused on, ignoring the whole context. Sometimes you want UPG and it becomes a debate about history and practice. Sometimes you want resources and someone tells you to use the search and Google things yourself. Sometimes you want info about Deity A and people end up taking about Deity Z. *shrug* Things happen. I think it's best to just ignore what doesn't apply and move on. ;-)

As for DiscordianKitten, I don't think she's been on recently.
In her signature she posts her blog and twitter. Perhaps you can try getting in contact with her there?
~ Blog: Kitten of Discord (http://kittenofdiscord.blogspot.com/) ~ Twitter: @DiscordianKitty (http://twitter.com/#%21/DiscordianKitty) ~

Good luck, hope you get to hear that story :-]

[Brynhild Tudor]

Thanks Agaliha. You've been extremely helpful. Yeah, I'll just move on. It's nice to know there are other hard polytheists on here. Thanks for understanding my frustration that I was trying to be as clear as possible as to what I wanted, even repeating myself, and people just didn't seem to get it. Some people actually do make a distinction between soft and hard polytheism, so thus the further clarification. I prefer things stay on-topic and try to clarify when discussions de-generate.

Here's how I look at OP and OT posts: Someone goes into a store and asks for a spicific brand of 1 percent milk. Instead of saying "we don't carry that here, but here's a place where you can find it", people for some reason start giving you other products off the dairy shelf instead of what you originally asked for. Some people welcome this, but I find it extremely annoying, as I know what I want, and other people either think they know better what I *should* want, or else they think their responses shouldn't matter. Um, yeah, they do matter. If you give me butter and cheese, I'm gonna get annoyed with you, because I wasn't looking for those. Just give me the damn milk!

The customer is always right.

I sent a message to Discordian Kitten's blog but she didn't respond. Ah well, I tried. It would've been nice to hear that story.
Brynhild

[Micheál]

Thanks Agaliha. You've been extremely helpful. Yeah, I'll just move on. It's nice to know there are other hard polytheists on here. Thanks for understanding my frustration that I was trying to be as clear as possible as to what I wanted, even repeating myself, and people just didn't seem to get it. Some people actually do make a distinction between soft and hard polytheism, so thus the further clarification. I prefer things stay on-topic and try to clarify when discussions de-generate.

Here's how I look at OP and OT posts: Someone goes into a store and asks for a spicific brand of 1 percent milk. Instead of saying "we don't carry that here, but here's a place where you can find it", people for some reason start giving you other products off the dairy shelf instead of what you originally asked for. Some people welcome this, but I find it extremely annoying, as I know what I want, and other people either think they know better what I *should* want, or else they think their responses shouldn't matter. Um, yeah, they do matter. If you give me butter and cheese, I'm gonna get annoyed with you, because I wasn't looking for those. Just give me the damn milk!

The customer is always right.

I sent a message to Discordian Kitten's blog but she didn't respond. Ah well, I tried. It would've been nice to hear that story.
Brynhild
It's good that you were able to find someone's post that helped, but I'd suggest that you read the thread again, as it appears to me everyone tried making suggestions to aid your gnosis. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear, but I'd suggest that you did more research into hard polytheism, as you clearly don't know the difference between believing different deities are the 'same', or 'aspects,' of another, and acknowledging different names&titles of the same deity. (In which many examples can be given) It frustrates me when people state inaccurate information.

[Agaliha]

Thanks Agaliha. You've been extremely helpful. Yeah, I'll just move on. It's nice to know there are other hard polytheists on here. Thanks for understanding my frustration that I was trying to be as clear as possible as to what I wanted, even repeating myself, and people just didn't seem to get it. Some people actually do make a distinction between soft and hard polytheism, so thus the further clarification. I prefer things stay on-topic and try to clarify when discussions de-generate.

Here's how I look at OP and OT posts: Someone goes into a store and asks for a spicific brand of 1 percent milk. Instead of saying "we don't carry that here, but here's a place where you can find it", people for some reason start giving you other products off the dairy shelf instead of what you originally asked for. Some people welcome this, but I find it extremely annoying, as I know what I want, and other people either think they know better what I *should* want, or else they think their responses shouldn't matter. Um, yeah, they do matter. If you give me butter and cheese, I'm gonna get annoyed with you, because I wasn't looking for those. Just give me the damn milk!

The customer is always right.

I sent a message to Discordian Kitten's blog but she didn't respond. Ah well, I tried. It would've been nice to hear that story.
Brynhild

You're welcome. I just didn't want this to start drama, hence my advice to ignore things rather than using them as a jumping off point to get more frustrated. My point (that I didn't really mention, it seems) was that MW is a public forum, with 100s of active members (which is not like asking one person a question, threads are not one on one-- Kpokes, PMs and visitor messages are). Posting threads on MW is like going into a room with 100s of people and yelling a question or asking for an opinion. You'll get many results from STFU to helpful and unhelpful things. If you're not getting the answer you want, either move on or keep asking. Or try again later. Many people have experienced the frustration of not getting what they wanted or expected out of a thread, it's understandable, but also keep in mind people are here to help you out, for the most part. That was all I was trying to say. ;-]

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Merlin is actually a character whose original incarnation was as the Welsh god Gwydion. Over time as language evolved, his name changed from Gwydion, to Myrddin, Merddin, and finally Merlin.


This is quite a different angle than what I've encountered in my studies. Could you please cite a source for this?

[Micheál]

This is quite a different angle than what I've encountered in my studies. Could you please cite a source for this?
No worries. I'm sure you're probably familiar with the Merlin/Myrddin links judging by your display name ;) As far as the Gwydion link, was displayed to me by a scholar&archaeologist friend of mine in England. Just give it a little time for him to get back with me.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

No worries. I'm sure you're probably familiar with the Merlin/Myrddin links judging by your display name ;) As far as the Gwydion link, was displayed to me by a scholar&archaeologist friend of mine in England. Just give it a little time for him to get back with me.

Not a problem, merely interested in a new twist.

[Micheál]

Here's my friend's response, addressed to me, as I asked because I've come across it before, but am also curious about the exact correlation.

"iirc there are only four recognised texts from antiquity that feature Gwydion
Trioedd Ynys Prydein
Llyfr Taliesin
Englynion y Beddau
The Mabinogion

none of these will connect him to merlin directly as they all predate merlins appearance in literary history

Geoffrey of monmouth who allegedly invented the modern character we recognise as merlin based him on several famous welsh personages, whos own existence is not strongly supported.
but if you examine for instance some of the claims of merlin and gwydion together they are very similar
Merlin for instance supposedly flew the stones of stonehenge over from ireland, merlin circa 1000CE, stonehenge circa 3000bce
Gwydion first landed in wales with the rest of the children of don from ireland on the preselli coast at the site of the stonehenge bluestone quarry, circa 3000bce, that this was the original quarry wasn't known until about 5 years ago, so where did the author of the merlin story get that information, its too precise a detail for chance

my research on this was a few years ago and i no longer have my notes, but its quite clear when you get into it that the children of Don are none other than a welsh version of the Tuatha de danaan, when you think about immigration between wales and ireland during that period its not difficult to see how the stories arrived and again you find paralells between gwydion, merlin and the dagda. The Tuatha you may remember started the stories about magical swords
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_four_jewels_of_the_Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann
as well as magical stones and cauldrons, all of which feature in arthurian stories about merlin

so its like this
the welsh were telling stories about a magical god since the 3rd millenium
the english started telling stories about a welsh magician since the 5th century CE
we have been telling stories about merlin since the twelth century
theres the obvious literary connection right there, there are no new stories, there are just old stories retold

and the obvious naming similarity
the dion part of gwydions name in welsh means "god"
the lin part of merlins name means leader

and remember
they change from
Gwydion
Myrddin
Merlin

pick any three names at random and see if you can make them all the same by just changing three letters
thats more than coincedence imo, I also found out that this change from welsh to english is easily covered by whats called the "aspirate mutation"
though you might want to google that"

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Thank you, and your friend, for the reply. I can see a rather loose possible connection, but not sure if I agree.