Tarot & Qabala

[Erincelt]

I decided to try something new and interesting the other day.. I did a personal reading, using only the Major Arcana.. and then immediately performed another reading, with the same style/format, with a deck of cards picturing nothing more than a letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Then, I compared my results... By using correspondences of Tarot -> Alephbeit I found something quite amazing.. The two readings were very much near identical!! They only differed on two cards, and the general meaning was still muchly the same.

What I'm wondering, is has anyone else had similar experiances? Has anyone else even thought to try something like this? And would you care to, then let me know how it turned out? ;)

Oh.. and so you know, I attributed Aleph to The Fool, and then the rest in order from there. (ie, Beit to The Mage, Gimel to The Priestess, etc)

[mol]

Originally posted by Erincelt

I decided to try something new and interesting the other day.. I did a personal reading, using only the Major Arcana.. and then immediately performed another reading, with the same style/format, with a deck of cards picturing nothing more than a letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Then, I compared my results... By using correspondences of Tarot -> Alephbeit I found something quite amazing.. The two readings were very much near identical!! They only differed on two cards, and the general meaning was still muchly the same.


Why was this amazing? Of course, you would see similarities. After all, the Tarot has been shown to have a foundation in Kabbalah. The correspondences, etc are perfect. In fact, I am studying this very thing right now. The Tarot and its relationship to the Kabbalah.

[Erincelt]

Oh I do know the fact of its foundation.. I came up with this experiment while reading A Garden of Pomegranates, in fact.. I just didn't expect the two to be so identical. I did expect the general meanings of the two to be similar.. but this was a shock of sorts. I happy one, mais oui. It definitely confirmed the connection for me.

[Lavender]

After all, the Tarot has been shown to have a foundation in Kabbalah. The correspondences, etc are perfect. In fact, I am studying this very thing right now. The Tarot and its relationship to the Kabbalah.

I've heard of this but know very little about it. I just did a search on the 'net and didn't find too much. Would you be able to recommend a book or two or maybe somewhere to start?

[Theres]

'The Qabalistic Tarot', by Robert Wang.

there is in fact NO historic link between the tarot and the Qabala prior to the 1800's, i believe. and many would argue that all the connections are pure coincidence.

but i think that when two systems resonate so similarly they must have a connection on some plane.

i might go as far as to say that no deep understanding of the tarot is possible without at least a perfunctory knowledge of the (Hermetic) Qabala.

[Lavender]

Chapters told me the book's out of print. I'm trying to see if, maybe, one of our public libraries might have a copy of it.

[Erincelt]

I'm considering another (similar) experiment, and wonder what anyone might have to say about New Aeon English Qabalah? (gah.. what a mouthful)

I've noticed that NAEQ manages to build new patterns of its own.. and the addition of four new paths running through Daath is quite interesting. Thoughts? Comparisons? Any idea how to weave in the four new cards?

[Theres]

the addition of four new paths? bringing it to 26?
that's new to me, and really seems to eliminate the relationship between the paths and the Trumps (a relationship i find fascinating).

i personally think that there should be paths through Da'ath, but i would take them from the bottom of the Tree (10 to 8 and 10 to 7), as is seen in the Ar'i model. this keeps the number at 22.

i'll have to go a-googling and see what i can find about this NAEQ.
thanks for the info!

[mol]

Originally posted by Greenman

there is in fact NO historic link between the tarot and the Qabala prior to the 1800's, i believe. and many would argue that all the connections are pure coincidence.

but i think that when two systems resonate so similarly they must have a connection on some plane.

i might go as far as to say that no deep understanding of the tarot is possible without at least a perfunctory knowledge of the (Hermetic) Qabala.

I dont know if you are addressing me or not, but I never said there was an actual 'historical' link between the two. But I have studied and read of some pretty fascinating links between the two.

Coincidences are sometimes not that coincidental. :)

[Zander770]

paul foster case (b.o.t.a. founder): the very FIRST to correlate the maj arcanna keys to the letters of the hebrew alphabet AND to the paths on the Tree of Life (The Tarot, 1947,macoy publishing co., richmond,va.)

and (i say): Praise BE!!!
:D

[Ben Trismegistus]

Hey gang - I was planning to start a thread on Qabalistic Tarot, but I did a quick search and found this one, so I just thought I'd BUMP it!


paul foster case (b.o.t.a. founder): the very FIRST to correlate the maj arcanna keys to the letters of the hebrew alphabet AND to the paths on the Tree of Life (The Tarot, 1947,macoy publishing co., richmond,va.)


Sorry Zander, that's not true. The FIRST to correlate the 22 cards of the Major Arcana with the 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet was esoteric scholar Eliphas Levi, in his 1860 book Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie, almost 90 years before Paul Foster Case's book.

And the correlation of the Major Arcana cards with the 22 paths on the Tree of Life, as well as correlations between the 10 numbered cards in each suit and the 10 Sephiroth, between the 36 numbered cards in the deck (excluding the 4 aces) and the 36 decanates of the Zodiac, and between the four suits of the deck and the four Qabalistic worlds (Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah, and Assiah), were all in use well before Case, in the Qabalistic tarot practices of the Golden Dawn (of which A.E. Waite was a member), and were detailed in S.L. MacGregor Mathers' 1888 book The Tarot: Its Occult Significance, Use in Fortune-Telling, and Method of Play, Etc.

Case himself was a member of the Golden Dawn spin-off group The Order of Alpha et Omega, initiated in 1918. He was expelled in 1922 by Moina Mathers, and went on to form the B.O.T.A. using skills and information he learned in the A.O.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Zander. :)

So -- are there others on this board who practice Qabalistic tarot? I haven't tried yet, but I've been doing a lot of reading. I'd be interested to hear from people who have actually used all of those correlations in their tarot readings. The way I see it, they could either provide fascinating additional insights into the reading itself, or they could just be overly-complicated wastes of time. Thoughts?

[Toad]

Ben –

Let’s see…

I do often use Qabalah correspondence when I am doing a personal reading. When I read for myself I don’t mind taking the time to whip out the books to look up references and such. I am finding that not only does this process generally provide more in-depth information…it’s also a tremendous learning experience. Like anything the more you use this the more natural it becomes.

I did have a tendency to forget my initial reading and get lost in the book correspondence. That is until I finally pulled my head out. These days when reading for myself, I make a point of writing out my initial thoughts, no matter how off the wall they seem. Only after I have done this did I begin looking into the Qabalistic aspects. It’s truly amazing how often my initial response that seemed off the wall makes perfect sense once I bring the books out. I still think it’s vital to remember the initial reactions. Of course this is pretty much common sense…but I honestly screwed up a couple readings not writing this stuff down.

I do occasionally read for others. I made the mistake of reading for one of the wife’s friends and now these women won’t leave me alone. =) When I do one of these readings I generally don’t bother with Qabalistic references.

[Aspasia Sariel]

Well if you deem exploring the universe pictorally on a macro- and micro-cosmic level as a waste of time....I'm guilty! The Qabalistic correspondences are my foundation for the Tarot, not the other way around, so I can't imagine (for myself anyway) doing things differently.


I do often use Qabalah correspondence when I am doing a personal reading. When I read for myself I don’t mind taking the time to whip out the books to look up references and such. I am finding that not only does this process generally provide more in-depth information…it’s also a tremendous learning experience. Like anything the more you use this the more natural it becomes.

I have a pile of references out whenever my cards are out. I too, don't mind taking that time out, there is always some new correspondence, either on the Tree or within myself for me to walk away with. Plus, on the rare days that I'll give a reading, I have found that I have a much, much easier time relating cards to one another on a much, much deeper level.


i personally think that there should be paths through Da'ath, but i would take them from the bottom of the Tree (10 to 8 and 10 to 7), as is seen in the Ar'i model. this keeps the number at 22.

I have mixed feelings about Da'ath....I'm going to check out that info posted......

[Zander770]

Ben TrismegistusSorry Zander, that's not true. The FIRST to correlate the 22 cards of the Major Arcana with the 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet was esoteric scholar Eliphas Levi, in his 1860 book Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie, almost 90 years before Paul Foster Case's book

z770--he's absolutely RIGHT! however, it was written in another language (than ENGLISH, i.e.), and . . . actually, in Dr Paul Foster Case's The Tarot (1947) it says on the VERY FIRST PAGE that ELIPHAS LEVI'S (who's REAL NAME was--LOUIS ALPHONSE CONSTANT, btw, mr "TRISMEGISTUS," since you seem to want to be SPLITTING HAIRS, for some reason, w/me) . . . hmm . . . AND, also; Levi's EARLIER (1854--a Good SIX-YEARS EARLIER!) Publication of Dogma and Ritual of Transcendental Magic is the "Book" (i use the term, above: "Publication," because that is what they were; NOT "Books," at all: "Binders!" this Period of Time is what's known as The "Tarot Revial . . .").


Case himself was a member of the Golden Dawn spin-off group The Order of Alpha et Omega, initiated in 1918. He was expelled in 1922 by Moina Mathers, and went on to form the B.O.T.A. using skills and information he learned in the A.O.


so? yes! "he's RIGHT!" i suppose i should have stated . . . blah, blah, blah . . . i've--unfortunately--not the TIME, for This, today (are you saying, too, mr "TRISMEGISTUS," that P.F. Case WAS NOT a member of the HOGD)?!!?

you see . . . there's been this, ahh: "Battle" going on re: Case and the G.:.D.:. and the b.o.t.a. and . . . it seems to me to really boil down to someone's particular "like" or "dislike" of these "issues . . ." (ya know: like the Master Therion ones)! i sometimes just get tired of it, and writing the same things--i WAS a member of the b.o.t.a. and i AM a CURRENT member--dues up to date and "EVERYthing"!--of another Secret Magickial Society (right . . .) and today's just a "Weary Day," for me (i've "other things" to complete, that's all . . .) BUT: Thanks for the History Lesson and i can see you've learned a LOT from it, which is Good, isn't it?


Ben Trismegistus[/b]]Sorry to burst your bubble, Zander. :)

z770--no problem (my "Bubble?!!?") i "understand," man. (he's absolutely RIGHT) ! i am Very HAPPY (no . . . "SKIPPY!!!") to have you Wanna Do It!!!

[Oscen Occultus]

*hides his tarot and kaballah books from the nasty energy* No arguing on a sabbat/shabbat mix!! :-P ;)

I think the correlation between the two is quite interesting... however, I don't place a lot of importance on it. Hermetic and the more "mathematical" kaballahs do not interest me. :-/