Hell, Satan, Sin?

[MystyPines]

Merry Meet!

I was wondering what are your beliefs on Satan, Hell or Sin? Do any Pagans here believe in Sin? Or, do they believe that people make "mistakes" learn from them, and move on. Also, we have a Summerland, but do you believe in a Hell? And, what about that little nasty guy called Satan? Is there an entity called Satan that makes us do negative things or is it that we all have the free will to make the choice to do postiive or negative actions? Interested in everyone's thoughts.

Bright Blessings!

[Earth Walker]

I don't believe in the devil, nor hell where people are skewered
on pitchforks, being roasted like marshmallows or weenies.

[MystyPines]

Mystique!

lol, lol, lol - You are too funny! [grin] :)

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by MystyPines
I was wondering what are your beliefs on Satan, Hell or Sin? Do any Pagans here believe in Sin?

Well, I for one, feel that Satan is part of the Christian construct ~ part of the Christian pantheon ~ and therefore not part of any Pagan pantheon. The gods I worship are mostly indigenous to the British isles ~ where you'll find no Satan or Satan-esque god-figure. I don't know any Pagans who believe in a concept of "sin", either ~ like you said, we learn from our mistakes and move on; that's what life is about; that's what we incarnated for ~ learn the lessons and evolve. I believe in reincarnation; my belief system teaches reincarnation, and doesn't have a place of eternal damnation. We live according to our own freewill.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I was Catholic and I've never really and truly believed in Hell or Satan. It wasn't pounded into me like others. As for sin, I used to believe in it but now I don't. When you live your life according to the Wiccan Rede or other Karmic laws there is no place for sin but only responsibility. I'm not going to murder anyone but if I did I think I could put myself thourgh enough hell right here feeling guilty than in an afterlife. I think its interesting how some people who have had near death experiences see the life review and feel all the hurt and pain they have caused people. I think that is more likely than Hell. From that at least, IMHO, you could learn valuable lessons, i don't believe that you would be punished for doing wrong.

[loopy]

I've heard that Satan was actually created by Christians who wanted to convert people--turning the Pagan God into Satan, a thing of evil, thus the horns and such. I follow that belief. As for sin, I agree with Mairwen about learning and reincarnation. I don't believe in the concept of Hell, nor do I believe any God would banish their followers to such a place for a small mistake they made in life.

:)

[Merrie]

I was raised catholic but i could never really bring myself to belive in hell or the devil, nomatter how hard it was pounded into my head. I always wondered how anyone could do something that was really worth an eternity of punishment...It would have to be something on a much bigger scale than all those thou shalt nots. I don't think you can be damned forever for a mistake( those are for learning from.), and there's certainly not a little red man with a pitchfork running at my heels...

[Rævyn Cigány]

It is rather staggering to me how many of us were Catholics before Wicca presented itself into our lives! I too was Catholic (altar girl et al), and felt as many of you did: that the concept of Satan and Hell was, in a word, unneccesary. I had many a battle with my VERY devout mother over the subject. I did however, believe in the concept of sin, and I still do, but not to the extent of that of my former faith. The ten commandments are actually good tenets to live by, but unfortunately I feel they're a little long-winded (as am I sometimes...lol ;)). 'An it harm none, do as ye will' covers it much better, don't you agree? :D

With much love and blessings,

Rae )0(

[Merrie]

You have it Rae! Well said. :)
All the commandments very basically seem to say the same thing as the rede, but you have to dig through a lot of extre preachiness to get there. Besides...Hel is a Goddess. :D

[Semele]

Originally posted by Merrie
You have it Rae! Well said. :)
All the commandments very basically seem to say the same thing as the rede, but you have to dig through a lot of extre preachiness to get there. Besides...Hel is a Goddess. :D

They did say much of the same thing. However that one about no other God before me was unique huh?!?!?!?

Somehow that is just not a phrase I can hear coming from the lips of my precious God. In fact I know he/she/they thrive on us making our own choices. If we find them, and in turn enlightenment they are happy for us, if we decide to follow Christianity, Buddism, Satanism...whatever, they aren't angry, but rather proud of us for finding our own way. And they would certainly never sentence us Hell to be tortured for eternity just because we didn't act as puppets. I think the worst Hell we can experience is here on earth, but on the same token so is heaven if we only open our eyes and really see.

Right now the rain is pouring down and the thunder and lightening are raging. My door is wide open and the scent of the fresh rain is pouring in. Breathtaking!!!! I could be grouchy because the yard will be muddy and my flowers will get too much water and Mol's car leaks (hee-hee!!!) but I am not. I am seing the heaven in this moment rather than the hell. Even if a tornado came and wiped my house away there is heaven there as well. We may find a new home we love even more. Or even find the least likely of our friends come to lend a hand and build a newfound bound. For every piece of Hell....a slice of Heaven is riding on the embers of Hell's fire.

Well, aren't I just philosophical tonight?!?!? Should go to bed but I am perfectly content enjoying my own heaven right now....better take it now in case this really is it!!

Semele

[Kiya]

I respect everybody's beliefs as long as they don't try to ram it down my throat. However, the one thing that actually does cause me grief is the concept of original sin. I cannot believe this is so - why should any of us be punished for something we did not do? I've been luckiy, even though I had a religious upbringing, I never took much notice! However, when I was in 6th Form (age 16-18 for any one not in the UK!) I was horrified to find a close friend of mine was almost suicidal because she believed it wasn't worth living if she was 'tainted' with original sin. I could quite happily have strangled the priest at her church for pounding on about it.

I am responsible for all I do, confession to a faceless man does not absolve me of my responsibilities, so I live my life to the best of my abilities.

OK, sometimes I'm not nice, but I'll hold my hands up and apologise later!

I'm waffling.......

BB

[Elaine]

I will add to the number of former Catholics!!:)


satan- I'm not really sure on my outlook on satan....

hell- I do not, and have not believed in hell since I was sitting in my ugly green plad uniform in gradeschool! I believe that your punishment for the things you do wrong on this planet come to you with the 3 fold law!! plain and simple!! (the only reason I'm not sure about my satan outlook is that I can't decide if there is an actual entity that tries to guide us into evil!)

sin- I do not believe in origional sin....never really have either...I do, however, believe that if you do something with harmful intent, not by mistake, it is considered a sin...punishable by the 3 fold law....if you do not learn from it in this life, you will certainly learn from it in your next!

[Lucidia]

i certainly have quite a lot to say on this one... heh.

my husband is a satanic priest. Now mind you... if you haven't actually read the Satanic Bible... then you might not realize that in reality, it has nothing to do with Satan or Christianity at all.

In order to truly believe in satan or hell you'd most likely have to be going by a christian set of beliefs. This is fine and dandy... except from my experience.. most "devout" christians feel that they follow the ONLY true path to salvation.

Another problem is that humans seem to think that life is all about making sure the afterlife is going to be good when they have no proof of an afterlife at all. Rather than think that the point of life is enjoying life while you are alive, they live in misery, guilty over "sin" when they have in reality only broken rules that have no real basis.

Sin is a learned concept, and honestly has no effect on the mind of someone who has not chosen to embrace it's ideals. If you do not believe what you are doing is sinful, then you will not feel guilt over it.

For the most part, I think, Satan was the scapegoat for chrisitans because otherwise their "god" would have had to take more responsibility for the suffering the world was experiencing. I dont' understand why you would think that Satan would make the world suffer and then expect people to turn away from god. It's a big confusing jumble of beliefs and control techniques.

And it's true... the "image" of satan was molded to fit many pagan beliefs so that they could convince said pagans that they were doing evil and should turn to "christ" or whatever.

In satanic belief, the only sin you can commit is to do something and feel bad about it. This concept is either very complicated or very simple. It's hard to say... if there is such a thing as sin... someone who was completely innocent and ignorant of the said concepts of religion and therefore "sin" may not realize that things that we all seem to take for granted as 'bad' (murder, theft, lying, etc) are actually bad, and do them unknowingly. Would they be sinful simply for being ignorant? If ignorance is unavoidable in some cases, can it still in itself be almost considered a sin in itself?

Now mind you, i'm not a satanist myself. That's my husband's gig. Part of the amusing part about being an actual "priest" in satanism is that you've realized that all of the ritual and stuff is somewhat not really relavant at all. religion is religion in the end. Satanism is merely a matter of control.

I have broken things down into three catagories... People that need religion to survive... people that recognize mainstream religion is foolish but still cling to alternative religions with the same dangerous ferocity with cancels out all the good points of realizing that religion is a control tactic.. and those that realize that religion is unessasary is you can find your own path. Things like "Satan" and "Hell" are used to control the masses that need religion to survive. You basically make an equation:

Set of rules to follow + Human being = Need for fear to maintain "laws"

rules + fear = obedience

It takes a stronger person to make their own rules in order to instill a certain amount of personal healthy fear to maintain discipline in your life. In order to survive happily, you need to have some kind of balance and respect for things around you. If you were always negative, then your life would reflect the negative energy that surrounds you.

This is why i think that the concepts of hell and satan are foolish ways to control people. By making people have unhealthy negative fear of the unknown, you can cause fustration and in some cases resentment among the prospective worshipers.

Hell is simply rediculous, as how can you have a "loving god" who is suposed to be "forgiving" (even jesus said to forgive not only 7 times, but 77 times, symbolizing that forgiveness shouldn't be counted and kept track of, but that we should be abundantly forgiving as humans aren't perfect... ) and yet... this forgiving and loving god would put his creations into everlasting torture in order to punish them for sin that was inherited, not even brought upon themselves.

However, if Satan, and Hell, and sin are what people need to be happy in their lives, then so be it. I respect them fully for their religion and spirituality is a personal choice.

I was once in a really messed up christian cult. I took all of that stuff really seriously . I cried myself to sleep every night fearing that god was going ot destroy me for my sins because I felt no guilt over what I was doing that was "wrong" in the eyes of my "congregation". the concept of sin was destroying my happiness and my stability. They tried to convince me that anything that would make me "sin" was satan directly trying to "deceive" me and whatnot.

there is so much to say on this topic... but i think i'll leave off for now.. as i've diverged from the actual question far too much and I've said quite a bit already....

[Xois]

when i was first skimming the threads I throught it said "Hail Satan Sin"

LOL

I do not believe in sin perse...but I do believe you have to take responsibility for your actions

[Rævyn Cigány]

Elaine, good Gaea, you poor thing, you had to wear one of the horrid green jumpers?! I, thankfully was spared that torture. I live in a very small, very poor Northern town where the concept of uniforms was only ever tinkered with (and thrown out most vehemently by the local parents). Probably because the school I went to was one of the very few in the country at the time that were not run by priests and nuns...just ordinary Catholic teachers.

BB

Rae )0(

[mol]

I believe in the concept and idea of Satan, not in the Being. And thank you Lucidia for the very informative post. I wish your husband would come around even... ;)

Great thread.

[random]

I being a former Christian, did believe in Sin and Satan. But, I could not grasp the idea of God punishing us so bad for something.

I do not believe in this now, though. I have gradually spread from those ideas.

I believe that you learn from your mistakes, and will make more, but learn from them none the less.

Well, I could say more, but Im in a hurry.

Christy

[Mariposa De La Luna]

Its interesting to see how many people just can't believe in Hell even though that was how they were raised or people tried to pound it into them.

BTW, I can't wear plaid if someone held a gun to my head, even flannel. Its just not going to happen. I like the trend in non-catholic schools that have more ordinary clothes and a few choices.

[Amora]

I don't believe in the devil or hell. I believe in evil and have seen it in many forms but I don't feel there is a "devil". As for sin I believe some things (such as killing and abuse to name a few) are wrong but I wouldn't term them as "sins". And we pay for our own wrong doings in the long run, we don't need any higher being to punish us as far as I'm concerned.

[eaglewolf]

I believe ALL negative actions have an equally positive impact, no matter how "evil" the action...

This, in my eyes, makes ALL bad things, well... good.

Just thought I would throw that in here.

~ew

[Elaine]

I was taught in school that the reason there can be a hell is because God forgives those who are sorry for their sins...If they are truely sorry...they will be forgiven...if not...then their sent to hell...(not saying I agree, just saying that's what I was taught!)

Yes, I had to wear green (KELLY GREEN NONE THE LESS!!!) plaid in gradeschool...with a white button down collar'd shirt with a kelly green vest....(my school was St. Patricks) and this bluish purplish plaid in highschool! all 12 years of private catholic school....luckily, there were a very minimal amount of nuns...and the ones I had were very cool...(only had one that still wore the full habit! all the other ones wore street clothes most of the time!!) btw....I hated 11 out of 12 years!! schools like that are too strict.. I came out of school thinking that Catholicism was the only religion and that 99% of the world was white! Way too sheltered!! I love diversity!!!

I believe that plaid is the devil and wearing it is a sin....forcing childern to wear it is hell (for the children anyways!!!) :)

I think that so many people stray from Catholicism when they grow up because of the fact that it is beaten into our heads and told that is the only right way...we are not educated about other religions or cultures and when we grow up we realize that there is an entire world out there and we want to know about it....but the church tries to tell us we can't...so we leave to find something that will let us explore and find out what's out there!!

[Rævyn Cigány]

Okay, this is WAY too weird...my school was St. Patrick's as well!!! Only it was in the wilds of NW Ontario where you had to come out of the bush ten miles to hunt and fish!!!

Blessings and light

Rae )0(

[Elaine]

small world huh Rævyn Cigány!!:) I've been in Cleveland all my life....it was a 5 minute walk from my house....(no uphill both ways in 14 ft of snow stories for my kids & grandkids!!!) :)

(although the snow part I have PLENTY of stories about!) :)

[Mariposa De La Luna]

Originally posted by Elaine

I believe that plaid is the devil and wearing it is a sin....forcing childern to wear it is hell (for the children anyways!!!) :)



LMAF!!!!!!! 8O 8O 8O

That is too wierd Rae and Elaine!

[tempest69]

Hmmm....I also had been taught in a private school. I became almost like a zelot for Christianity (isn't that what they want?), yet when I left it was such a culture shock to see what went on in the real world. Yes, I'll admit it, I believed in all three of these (and still can't get some of the concepts out of my head!)

Now that I have seen other facets of religion, I feel that there IS a hell-like place. It is not the Christian version, but it is a place where evil is repaid in the afterlife, between reincarnations.

[Faery-Wings]

Add another Ex- Catholic to the list;) The funny thing was when I was in HS, my parents threatened me with Catholic HS when I got a bit out of hand (who me? *Innocent look*) They didn;t get that was were all of the kids who had gotten kicked out of public schools went. But I did graduate from an All Girls Catholic college- to the amazement of many of my friends.

Even as a kid, I had a real hard time with Hell. My thoughts were is God is all forgiving, why would you need Hell? And Pugatory was even more confusing to me. I just have always belived that when you die you soul goes to an area of Heaven (for lack of a better word) that resonates with what you did on Earth.

I don't think I ever really believed in Satan either, although I do remember that the picture of him in my children's bible shared me to death! I did believe that there were people who were evil. I am currently developing my thoughts and beliefs in this area. Right now I am thinking that there are some people who are more prone to acting on their negative side. *struggling for the words* Like the potential for good and evil is within all of of, it is how we think and act that develops these sides. Right now I am working on making myself a better person which keeps down the negative parts of me- the impatience, the temper, that stuff... Sorry if that makes no sense, I can feel it, but not explain it. 8O

Sin- I used to believe in sin as a Catholic standard of measure. Those who sin more, are not as good as one who sins less. Today I feel that there are good choices and not as good choices but no one is standing over me and judging me as the Christian God would.

Chris, probably just confused you all!

:sunny:

[Armitage]

I don't believe in sin as a concept, though there are bad things people do and then there are Bad Things. I think we know the difference in our hearts and souls though, and though everyone's concept of the former is different, I don't think you'll find most people arguing over the latter unless there's something really wrong upstairs.
I believe there is something like Hell for those who absolutely deserve it, and it is more of an experience than a lake of fire or ice. For someone like that, though, learning to become otherwise could be Hell in itself.
I don't believe in Satan, though I do believe there are angels very unlike the usual concept of them, and that there are different ones who serve different deities.

[Elaine]

Chryssi- to make what could be a potentially very long post short...I have to say that you did not confuse me...and I know exactly where you're coming from...I agree!!!:)

[Ozymandias]

Didn't you guys know? I am Satan, just ask my first wife!

[Faery-Wings]

Chryssi- to make what could be a potentially very long post short...I have to say that you did not confuse me...and I know exactly where you're coming from...I agree!!!

Why am I not surprised?? ROTF!

:D :D :D

Chris

[Jazzmine]

I'm a whole heartedly learn by your mistakes kind of gal. And I've made quite a lot of mistakes.;)

[sherry]

Yes I do believe in EVIL but no to the hell / satan /sin thing

I do believe that I alone am responsible for my actions and geesh am I in trouble at times

I do not think I ever bought the burn in hell part of my earlier part of religion teachings I was raised baptist and never quite understood why the sunday school teacher (down in the basement) said God was loving ....... then you go up stairs for church and the chubby guy talked for an hour and a half about how we were toast and scared everyone.
I guess I just didnt catch on well enough because at 16 I got my letter stating I was no longer a member of the church this letter is still in my bible and zipped shut and I sent him a ThankYou

[Jazzmine]

I don't think I quite know what to say on this topic. Guess I'll just let this one go.

[Tigerwallah]

I do not believe any of it - sin, Satan, or Hell.

[Elaine]

posted by Chryssi1
-Why am I not surprised?? ROTF!-

I know what you mean...:D:D:D I think we were sisters or something like that in a past life!!!:) :D

[Faery-Wings]

Originally posted by Elaine
posted by Chryssi1
-Why am I not surprised?? ROTF!-

I know what you mean...:D:D:D I think we were sisters or something like that in a past life!!!:) :D






I think you are right. If not sisters, then something!
:p

Chris

[The Mad Vitiki]

"OH NOOO !!!"
this subject has really upset the inmates in the lower dungin of our mind so I will have to be briff.

when an evil person dies where dose there energy go?

you guys better hold it down, down there got go. now look at what you all have done you force me to get the comfy chair
"no NONONONONONONo!!!! "not the comfy chair !!!!"
"we be good " "you see, honest"

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by loopy
I've heard that Satan was actually created by Christians who wanted to convert people--
:)

Actually, the concept of "Satan" and "Hell" predates Christianity. You will find both in the Hebrew Tanach (Old Testament), In most translations they are refered to as Lucifer and Hades, although the Hebrew concept of Hades is somewhat different than Hell. You will also find similar concepts on Greek and Roman mythology.

For myself, I believe that are separate forces of good and evil, darkness and light. They are not one, never have been, and never will be. As for "sin" one of the best definitions that I have come across equates sin with separation from God as a result of our actions. We do have free will, and the wrong choice of our will causes that separation.

As for reincarnation, we really don't have any proof that it does or does not exist. Like many other things, it is a matter of faith. The compromise that I have reached is to try and live as if we only had one lifetime. That way, if reincarnation is true, I will be further ahead than I would have been. Conversely, if we only have one life, I hopefully won't have hurt myself by placing my hopes on reincarnation.

Blessings.....

[Dellit Tandannon]

i just believe in being...... moral(?) i don't know if that's the best word for it. but you catch my drift

Dellit

[AgWolfsSpirit]

Yes, you see correctly. This is my first post here. (Why did you have to pick this one?) Well let's keep this short... Satan... hmmm... well the jury is still out on that one. If I didn't have the personal info that I have then I would feel the same as the rest of you. Because I know these things,though, (I am talking about info that people have given me and it is first hand experience for them.) I am still taking that one under advisement. I will say that I was not taught that Satan was red with a tail, horns and a pitch fork. He was the most beautiful being created by God. The Bright and Morning Star and he can appear in what ever form he choses. (Well that's what I was taught. :p ) ;) Next is sin. Well I don't personally care if I am sinned against, trespassed against, wronged or what ever, I am not going to like it. The name is of no concern. The action is the problem. We all believe in sin, we just have different names for it. We also have differing ideas as to the consequences of said action. So do I believe in sin? Sure. Call it what you will, just don't do it against me! I guess that leaves us with the old h e double toothpicks. Hell. We believe, for the most part, in heaven, summerland, the happy hunting ground, the spirit world, or whatever. And we all have our own ideas as to the descriptions of these places. Pretty much, they are all "heavenly". A place where there is no sickness, no death, no violence, no heart ache, no starvation, no abused children, no war, no... well ... you get the picture. To top it off, we can commune with our god, goddess, both or all. So it stands to reason that hell would be the place that is oposite of this. All I can say to that is ...Welcome to hell my friend. Don't get me wrong, I love this place, but, I would much rather be there. I don't really believe in hell, but this could come pretty close. Do we suffer here? Sure we do. Don't think so? Then hit your thumb with a hammer in -30 degree weather. Trust me, you'll suffer. Lose a child... you'll realy suffer. But you will also grow. Do we pay for our "sins" here? You bet. But that discussion would make this post longer than it already is. Hmmmm.... do I hear another can of worms opening? Just one thing more. The first commandment does say "... put no other gods BEFORE me.", not "... you shall have no other gods." Well I guess my book is long enough so I will go to bed now. :) Please remember, I am not trying to change any body. I am simply expressing my opinion. And I know I said I would keep this short.... so I did. :)

[Reeny]

I don't believe in satan or sin, those are christian concepts not pagan. I am pagan. Of course there are people who do bad things
and good things that is human nature.


Bless be!

[The Mad Vitiki]

This is a very interesting subject satin hell and sin. I feel they all exist as the goddess does. Usually I am explaining this to Christians. Its like believing in a politic party because you believe in the democrats does not mean the republicans do not exist.
Let Me explain for at lest 2,ooo years or more. Many humans have been giving energy to these concepts and that makes them real
Yet in the scheme of things Christianity is just a cult so I do not put a lot of faith in their reality

There is more to the universe than is dement of in you philosophy
This is a very interesting subject satin hell and sin. I feel they all exist as the goddess does. Usually I am explaining this to Christians. Its like believing in a politic party because you believe in the democrats does not mean the republicans do not exist.
Let Me explain for at lest 2,ooo years or more. Many humans have been giving energy to these concepts and that makes them real
Yet in the scheme of things Christianity is just a cult so I do not put a lot of faith in their reality

There is more to the universe than is dement of in you philosophy
This is a very interesting subject satin hell and sin. I feel they all exist as the goddess does. Usually I am explaining this to Christians. Its like believing in a politic party because you believe in the democrats does not mean the republicans do not exist.
Let Me explain for at lest 2,ooo years or more. Many humans have been giving energy to these concepts and that makes them real
Yet in the scheme of things Christianity is just a cult so I do not put a lot of faith in their reality

There is more to the universe than is dement of in you philosophy

[Revelation]

Actually, the concept of "Satan" and "Hell" predates Christianity. You will find both in the Hebrew Tanach (Old Testament), In most translations they are refered to as Lucifer and Hades, although the Hebrew concept of Hades is somewhat different than Hell.

Can you tell me where in the Tanakh this appears? From my understanding, the Hebrew concept of "Satan" is drastically different from the Christian concept. Satan (HaSaTaN) is "the Accuser"--something inherent in human beings as individuals, not an external, malevolent Arch-being who resides over a fiery pit.

With regard to Hell, I don't recall a Jewish belief in Hell as such. Can you explain further?

[bluecat]

I don't have a belief in anything like a heaven or a hell, this also extends to the summerlands or any type of underworld. I don't have any gods or goddesses either, but that's me, I don't expect everyone to be that way or have my beliefs.

Satan? Of course, he is the Christian temptor, he is very important in Christianity, do not tempt fate if you are a follower.

EVIL? Yes, without evil things would be out of balance. I am not a follower or adherent of it, I simply recognize it as a necessary part of the universe.

Blue

[EasternPriest]

[i]
Yet in the scheme of things Christianity is just a cult so I do not put a lot of faith in their reality


[/B]

Christianity is no more or less a "cult" than any other faith system. It is more constructive to speak of a persons beliefs as their faith system, as "cult" is a loaded word for many. Ultimately, any religious system comes down to faith. There is no more "proof" for the Goddess than there is for "Christ."
There are ancient manuscripts and legends for both, but antiquity does not automatically equal "truth."

[eaglewolf]

I think the above post is a perfect way to put the discussion of "cults" and "truth" to rest in this thread, well said EasternPriest.

Moving on, the discussion is about Hell, Satan, Sin, and your personal opinions of them. Let's get back to the topic... please.

~ew

[Tigerwallah]

I believe that Satan as we think of him today, is a derivative of Hades. The image of Satan and hell made popular by the artist Heronomous Bosch is richly fantasy.

I believe that everything contains positive and negative properties and that there is not any omnimptently good source and any omnipotently evil source. I believe that the same is true for the goddesses/gods. They can choose both good and evil, positive and netative, creative and destructive. Both need to exist in order to complete the soul.

With that said, I do believe in demons, as I believe in fairies and woodnymphs. There are shadowy spirits who are basically good, but capable of evil deeds, and shadowy spiritys who are basically evil, but capable of doing good deeds - its Yin and Yang. I believe that the Eastern concept of Yin and Yang is the formula which makes up the universe, and that heaven and hell are just simplistic ways to describe this.

As for sin, well, that is a Christian concept. I believe that we must atone for our bad deeds, but sin suggests that you do something to break ties with God. As long as I am true to myself, and as true to my Goddess as possible, I don't believe she's gonna hold my mistakes against me. If I chose evil, then I have to work out the Karma - either in this lifetime or another.

[bananabrain]

hades is a very specific concept as far as i am aware, what with charon, cerberus, minos, aeacus and rhadamanthus and what-have-you. the nearest we get to 'hell' is GeHiNNoM, which is more like the christian concept of 'purgatory' - and anyway, pretty much everyone spends a year there and then gets sent on to the world-to-come, whatever that is (opinion is divided, as judaism is more interested in what happens while you're alive) nowhere are lakes of fire, pitchforks and red-hot pokers up the bum mentioned.

as far as the other question is concerned, i am not aware that the phrase "Ha-SaTaN" is mentioned in the Tanakh. if you have the reference, i'd be pleased if you could tell me. it does, as i think someone says, mean 'the accuser', but in the Talmud is taken to refer to the angel whose job it is to arrange for us to be tested and then stand before the Divine and say 'You see? look what they did!' - this is a far cry from the concept of hooves and caprinosity (heh heh), which everyone pretty much agrees was a christian attempt to discredit the greek god pan, although the snake in the garden of eden is indeed associated with this angel. however, it was much later on that the idea of Ha-SaTaN was developed further and personalised. to a certain extent people confuse it with the 'angel of death', who is a different figure entirely. in fact the whole field of angelology is somewhat bound up with the kabbalistic idea of GiLGuL, the transmigration of souls and is a bit on the complicated side, let alone uncontroversial.

we *are* considered to have two 'inclinations', the YeTzeR Ha-TOV and the YeTzeR Ha-Ra, who are best understood as those two little figures that appear in cartoons on either side of, say tom or jerry's head, one being a good one and the other one a bad one. however, these are part of our own human selves and represent our own inner desires and needs. and our sages say 'the yetzer ha-ra is very good', from which it is inferred that this inclination is the one that causes such praiseworthy things as sexual desire, success in business, starting a family and building a home, which i think demonstrates just how in tune with human nature and positive about it judaism is. sometimes people associate the y-h-r with ha-satan, but it's really the y-h-r that gives ha-satan a way in, through our own selfishness. it's impossible to claim in judaism that 'the devil made me do it' - you may have been tempted by an exterior force, but it was your own responsibility to act on that or not. human free-will is a crucial, paramount consideration in human action.

finally, at the risk of starting another barney with our resident felid, sin is not exclusively christian. in the generic sense, pissing off your tutelary deity can be interpreted as sin. in confucianism, i believe, not treating the spirits of your ancestors right would also qualify. attachment to things of the samsaric cycle is not considered to be a good thing in hinduism and buddhism. it basically comes down to whatever a particular culture considers to be evil, if you ask me. however, 'original' sin is a christian thing.

for us jews, the word 'sin' is, as usual, a bit misleading. the concept of 'AVeiRaH' is more properly translated as 'transgression' of one of the 248 positive or 365 negative commandments (don't read anything into the fact that there are more negative ones, puh-leeze - the 613 basics are only basic and a lot of them are impossible these days) for which a given spiritual or communal sanction is prescribed.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bluecat]

Hi BB!

I want to add a few of the finer points about what many Christians seem to be taught. This is not a bash, just an enlightenment.

- Many xtians are simply taught that Hell is where they burn for eternity and the same for Hades. They are just told if yer bad, ya burn. In some churches they really lay on the whole fire and brimstone thing and lay on the fear.

-Which leads to fear. Many are just scared into submission and they don't question it.

-Barney ... IMHO the big purple guy is one of the minions of SATAN! ROFL! :eek: :eek: :eek: {A little strain relief was in order :D .}

Blue :cool:

[Mairwen]

I haven't been in this thread for a while, but I'm back now. :D


Originally posted by Kiya I am responsible for all I do, confession to a faceless man does not absolve me of my responsibilities, so I live my life to the best of my abilities. OK, sometimes I'm not nice, but I'll hold my hands up and apologise later!

AMEN! :D In the Gwyddoniad, we have the tennet of "WSSL" ~ Wisdom, Self-responsibility, Self-Responsibility and Love. (explanations on our website: http://pagan.drak.net/gwyddon/philosophy.html) ~ and frankly, I wouldn't want it any other way. :D

[AgWolfsSpirit]

Hell, sin, satan, Barney, Tom, Jerry.....hmmmmm... seems like there is a pattern developing here. ;) All I know for sure is that Yosemite Sam is Satan. I know this for a fact because I saw him just yesterday on .....errr.... what I meant to say was, MY DAUGHTER was watching the cartoon network yesterday and I saw him on there. And he was satan. Yeah... that's what I meant.

[Earth Walker]

Hey, Teletubbies are demons too. :D

[Armitage]

Nah, they're just ravers, whacked up on goofballs.

[widukind]

I'm sorry to disappoint all of you, but I personally feel there are nor Hell, Satan or Sin. These are all basic elements of society that are often recurrent (and not only in Judaism and Christianity), and may stabilise a certain type of society, but I do not feel they are real.

To elaborate on Tigerwallah's viewpoint, I, too, believe in Faeries, Wood Spirits and the like, but I do not think they are good or bad. The whole Taoist belief knows no good or bad, either. There is only the Tao, and actions against and with the Tao.

This brings me to my point: Good and Bad are terms made up by society to determine which actions are acceptable in life and which are not. I do believe in destructive and constructive elements in human nature, sympathic and apathic features, altruism and selfishness. These are parts of what we tend to call "Good" or "Bad", but are not good or bad as such. WE OURSELVES make them good or bad by putting them in our frame of mind. Destruction can be good and can be bad, but is neither as such. Why is the destruction of a disease good and the destruction of another human being who has not comitted a crime bad? Socially determined.

Same goes for spirits, of whatever kind. They themselves are not aware of any social terms, but the reasons for summoning the spirits, or the requests made to these spirits come from humans, who are socially conditioned, and can thus be 'good' or 'bad', which does, in its turn, not make the spirits in question good or bad.

That is why I am led to believe that Yin and Yang have nothing to do with Black equals evil and White equals good, but black and white only, femininity and masculinity only, none of which is better than the other, or can be complete without the other.

Disclaimer: The viewpoints herein are the author's only and cannot be proven. Readers are asked to consider these words, but think nothing of them when they don't agree. Reaction is possible and advisable.

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

[Jazzmine]

Just a mention here. Everyone should read a book called the Tao of Pooh. It's a very interesting read and quite cute also. There is also one called the Tao of Piglet. I haven't read that one yet, but plan to.

[The Mad Vitiki]

As I have ask before what happens to an evil persons energy whin they die ?
Rudolf Stiner said something like whin some one dyes, the emotions they die whith stay the same. So if you love some one whin you die then that energy lives on. Same goes for hate and anger.
some where in time at the dawn of humanity some one died whith anger in there hart and the the first demon was born.
I belive that if you live you life whith anger and hate and you die, that anger and hate lives on.

[Tigerwallah]

Sure it lives on!!! As does good. There can not be one without the other. I believe that many will acheive a state of perfect evil jast as many acheive a state of perfect good. Not, that I'm saying that there is a devil, however.

[Rick]

I think there all kinds of devils. One of them was executed today. Ever seen Charles Manson's eyes? Yup, all kinds of devils...

Satan?... Well, ya know, I've never embraced anything resembling Xian philosophy or belief. I have met Lucifer. Interesting being (but really not a nice guy, at all). No, I am not, nor have never been, a satanist. It's a long story.

Most of us equate "believing in" with "following". I believe in a lot of things that I don't necessarily embrace as Truth.

[mol]

Originally posted by Rick


Most of us equate "believing in" with "following". I believe in a lot of things that I don't necessarily embrace as Truth.

What you said right there deserves a whole new topic in and of itself.

<mols opinion>

Truth.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder. That is why everyones Path is a different one. We all see the Truth differently, no matter how close our Path's seem to be...

</mols opinion>