Any punishment out there?

[OakFire]

One of my friends and I have this discussion about paganism or wicca in general. (My friend is Christian but tolerates Pagans and has nothing against them.) The discussion is basically that in Wicca you can pick and choose what you believe. And, me being very eclectic in nature sees nothing wrong with this. Also, the debate is that in Wicca there is no punishment and no sevier punishment (i.e. hell) for those who do evil. Basically it bugs him that everything is honky dory and you do not get punished. As far as I know there is no place for those who follow Wicca and do evil or wrong. The only punishment I have ever heard of is either the "Threefold Law" or Reincarnation. To him, he sees no rules. To me, "Threefold Law" is enough of a rule or worse yet coming back to here. As for picking a choosing what I believe I see nothing wrong with using some of this and little of that...but never cross beliefs at a time (like durnig a spell). I like that Wicca can adapt to me. And, I pointed out to him that in all religions there is that case...most do not follow all the rules in the bible...and some feel that being baptisted is more important for salvation than speaking in tongues. So after rambling on and on...and please forgive any of my ignorance: Do you all feel that there is a place for those who do evil or send out negative energy in Wicca or Paganism? Thanks!

[Lunacie]

I don't know how well I can pull my thoughts together here, but I'll try. You know the bible verse that says "Spare the rod, spoil the child"? I think the Christian religion is based on this as much as the 10 commandments. There is right and wrong, and if you do something wrong then mommy and daddy (God) will spank you and send you to your room (send you to hell and punish you there forever) in order to teach you the difference between right and wrong. This seems pointless to me, since Christians believe that there is only this life and the afterlife, so if you didn't learn the difference between right and wrong while you were alive then what good does learning the lesson later do you?

I think some other religious paths, such as Buddhaism and Wiccanism, think that experience is the best teacher. If you do something that isn't in your best interest you will reap the consequences, whatever they may be. And if you do something that is in your best interest, your life will go better and you will be happier and at peace in your soul or spirit. And your spirit benefits from learning the lesson on its own rather than having it beaten in.

I hope this makes some sense, I still have the headache from Hel. Why am I being punished? ** wry grin **

[Lucid]

I kinda see karma like a garden . If you work at it getting rid of the negative things in yourself , and replacing them with positive things you will get a good harvest . If you sit on your butt and complain and never attempt to change your life you will get a garden of weeds. Kind of you reap what you sow .

But I do not see " bad things" happening to people as punishment . I think everyone has difficulties at one time or another . But I try to see them as challenges and lessons more than "punishment".

I do not think there is an ultimate disciplinarian out there waiting to whack you . Its a matter of self responsibility and choices. You are responsible for your life (after adulthood) and choices , the consequenses are not punishments or rewards but reactions to actions.

[Armitage]

I said other. Basically, if you're a jerk, people see that and respond accordingly. Not really punishment, per se, but reciprocity. If you're enough of a jerk, the response builds until it may seem like cosmic punishment, because by a certain point it comes not only from people, but from the connections you make and the influences you have and the end result of various interactions and actions.

[OakFire]

Thanks for the responses so far. I was wondering if any of you have had children and taught them the way you explained...how affective was it? My thinking is this: Even though I'm Wiccan I can still see how a child can understand clear cut puinshments but abstract ideas like life teaches you lessons I feel would be harder for a child to understand. Just my opinion and thinking right now, again excuse my ignorance.

[SagaDraco]

What is "evil" anyway? I truthfully do not think there is a guy at a desk when you die going over everything. What if a totally insane or completely retarded person murdered someone? Is there consideration in the other world for such things? Also, since none of us will know until we die(and there ain't no sneak peeks or sequals), it's fairly pointless to give it much thought. Too busy enjoying my Earthly pleasures.

[Lunacie]

Several times now I have seen the suggestion that instead of spanking him or putting her into "time out" that you put the child's favorite toy into "time out" instead by placing it up out of reach yet still in plain view. That is probably fairly abstract to a child and yet it is an immediate consequence..

My daughter was in high school by the time I "converted" to Wicca (that's a joke folks!) so I'm feeling my way through this with my grandchildren as well, and also taking into consideration their parents feelings about discipline.

[Marchosias]

As far as "evil" deeds, etc. you only get punished if you bring it on yourself.
i.e. You murder somebody but leave bloodstains on the floor, or some other evidence. Therfor, if you get caught and punished, its your own fault. Every action has a chain of events linked to it, which dont neccessarily follow a moral compass.

[mol]

Originally posted by Marchosias

As far as "evil" deeds, etc. you only get punished if you bring it on yourself.
i.e. You murder somebody but leave bloodstains on the floor, or some other evidence. Therfor, if you get caught and punished, its your own fault. Every action has a chain of events linked to it, which dont neccessarily follow a moral compass.

So....Karma?

[Erincelt]

Begin Disclaimer.
As usual, I'm stating the view of the Museic Tradition specifically.
End Disclaimer. (there ought to be an emoticon for this thing, I swear.. :) )

As we see it, one's time spent between lives is used by the soul to come to terms with an entire lifetime's events and actions. Not a problem... unless of course that lifetime has been spent in evil ways.. now the soul must come to terms with this, and feel the "whole" of the action: that is, in our "restful" state, we feel the effects of both (or all) sides of things. If our soul is incorporating an action of rescuing someone from a fire, then we feel both the exhiliration of the hero, and also the relief and renewed hope of the rescued. If our soul is incorporating acts of violence and hate... well, you can picture the sort of dark torture that can lead to. We refer to this state as Perood ("seperation"). So.. in a sense.. this is our Hell.

Alright, I'm done. :)

Begin Disclaimer.
See above. ;)
End Disclaimer.