Project Conversion and the Pagan backlash

[of black birds]

I came across this post by Star Foster (http://www.patheos.com/community/paganportal/2011/10/04/dont-worry-wicca-isnt-a-real-religion-a-rant) regarding a BeliefNet blogger who is embarking on a journey to learn and live, for 30 days, 12 different religions this year titled Project Conversion (http://blog.beliefnet.com/projectconversion/). Each month is chosen with a particular holiday in mind and for October it's Wicca. This has made Star ruffle her feathers and vent a lot angry words on her blog.

Both sides have been coming to each other's aid in trying to get their message across - each having some valid points. However, I can't help but be disheartened about seeing arguments (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=141711859259807&id=168033533223699) on his facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Project-Conversion/168033533223699) filled with all the complaints and vilifying his attempt at learning about Wicca this month.

Personally I find this rather sad but not surprising. While I am new to his blog/journey, it seems that it is the pagan/wiccan community that has come out baring teeth and lashing out, and it's only been four days, while every other past nine faiths did not. The Sikhs, Muslims and LDS church were quite warm in welcoming in him.

After reading the discussions from both sides/sites, what are your thoughts?

[grug]

John Safran, an Australian journalist, made a documentary series called John Safran vs God a few years ago. If you’re interested in the concept of trying out and documenting different religions you may be interested in seeing it as he experiences a wide range of both mainstream and obscure religions and shows them with a sense of humour. (Such as he’s Jewish and try’s to join the KKK.) You may be able to find it at sbs.com.au.

[of black birds]

Fantastic, I'll check it out. One tv show I saw a while back was the BBC's Around the World in 80 Faiths (most is on youtube) and it's an Anglican Priest sent around the world to learn about different faiths and even participate in them. Maybe I'm too open minded for my own good but I do not see the harm in PC and his attempt to fully immerse himself in each path.

[grug]

Cool. I'll have to check it out. I think as long as you give each religion/spiritual path respect and you accept it as being what it is then the exploration can only be a good thing. By studying others' systems, whether it be a spiritual, scientific or other system, and seeing what works and what doesn't work, you can only improve your own system.

[Katsbrain]

I think what is making a lot of Pagans angry is that he is treating his "month of Wicca" as a novelty compared to other religions, something to do in a tongue-in-cheek manner as opposed to an actual exploration of Pagan religious practices and values. There is a sensitivity in our community towards anyone who would take our paths lightly, more so than with other religions. I think this is due to the fact that, in addition to actual persecution and discrimination, we are also often subjected to more mocking then just about any other religion in existence! We are very often made into a joke, something rebellious teens do before they grow up and get a "real life," or some other stereotype that suggests we are not serious about our paths, but rather looking to simply shock our friends and family.

Also, the dull, tired trope of shocked discovery at the fact that we don't worship Satan or eat babies is bordering on insulting. Do we REALLY still have to begin every conversation about our spiritual paths in this way? I think taking the time to refute those ridiculous fears from outsiders is doing more to keep them around than to get rid of them.

As for me, I am not particularly emotional about it. This is the natural byproduct of the reality-tv age, where even an intense spiritual journey can be broken down into sound bytes and witty remarks. If this blogger insists on treating Paganism as a novelty, the least we can do is return the favor.

[novimarra]

In theory, I don't think I'd have a problem with this type of ... survey? It could be fun, no harm no foul. But when I actually started to read the entries...

Merry Meet, Blessed Be, and welcome to my first day on the Wiccan path!

I had to shake my head a little. Oh em gee.

[aynfean]

I think what is making a lot of Pagans angry is that he is treating his "month of Wicca" as a novelty compared to other religions, something to do in a tongue-in-cheek manner as opposed to an actual exploration of Pagan religious practices and values. There is a sensitivity in our community towards anyone who would take our paths lightly, more so than with other religions. I think this is due to the fact that, in addition to actual persecution and discrimination, we are also often subjected to more mocking then just about any other religion in existence! We are very often made into a joke, something rebellious teens do before they grow up and get a "real life," or some other stereotype that suggests we are not serious about our paths, but rather looking to simply shock our friends and family.

Also, the dull, tired trope of shocked discovery at the fact that we don't worship Satan or eat babies is bordering on insulting. Do we REALLY still have to begin every conversation about our spiritual paths in this way? I think taking the time to refute those ridiculous fears from outsiders is doing more to keep them around than to get rid of them.

As for me, I am not particularly emotional about it. This is the natural byproduct of the reality-tv age, where even an intense spiritual journey can be broken down into sound bytes and witty remarks. If this blogger insists on treating Paganism as a novelty, the least we can do is return the favor.

This.

I mean I could retype my thoughts on the matter but that about sums it up. I don't think such a... violent? reaction was necessary but I understand it to some degree.

[of black birds]

I think what is making a lot of Pagans angry is that he is treating his "month of Wicca" as a novelty compared to other religions, something to do in a tongue-in-cheek manner as opposed to an actual exploration of Pagan religious practices and values. There is a sensitivity in our community towards anyone who would take our paths lightly, more so than with other religions. I think this is due to the fact that, in addition to actual persecution and discrimination, we are also often subjected to more mocking then just about any other religion in existence! We are very often made into a joke, something rebellious teens do before they grow up and get a "real life," or some other stereotype that suggests we are not serious about our paths, but rather looking to simply shock our friends and family.

Also, the dull, tired trope of shocked discovery at the fact that we don't worship Satan or eat babies is bordering on insulting. Do we REALLY still have to begin every conversation about our spiritual paths in this way? I think taking the time to refute those ridiculous fears from outsiders is doing more to keep them around than to get rid of them.

As for me, I am not particularly emotional about it. This is the natural byproduct of the reality-tv age, where even an intense spiritual journey can be broken down into sound bytes and witty remarks. If this blogger insists on treating Paganism as a novelty, the least we can do is return the favor.

So are pagans projecting that this month is a novelty while the past nine were not because our past experience? Because that's what I'm noticing the complaints are. He did not get this outcry over him "playing" Muslim - which to be honest get much much more negativity in the media than Pagans do. They are more public about their faith, unlike us which still keep to the "broom closet," which was why this year Pagan Coming Out Day was created.

He also went to an LDS church, and I know a lot of people personally who think Mormonism is full of crap and it's all made up garbage. I've known coworkers immediately dislike another because it was "found out" that's what she was. And these were Christians of other denominations. They also knew what my faith was and I was never ostracized like this girl was.

[of black birds]

In theory, I don't think I'd have a problem with this type of ... survey? It could be fun, no harm no foul. But when I actually started to read the entries...

Merry Meet, Blessed Be, and welcome to my first day on the Wiccan path!

I had to shake my head a little. Oh em gee.

He's done that with previous faiths.
Allah-u-Abha and welcome to my review of Day 1 with the Baha’i Faith!

[Katsbrain]

So are pagans projecting that this month is a novelty while the past nine were not because our past experience? Because that's what I'm noticing the complaints are. He did not get this outcry over him "playing" Muslim - which to be honest get much much more negativity in the media than Pagans do. They are more public about their faith, unlike us which still keep to the "broom closet," which was why this year Pagan Coming Out Day was created.

He also went to an LDS church, and I know a lot of people personally who think Mormonism is full of crap and it's all made up garbage. I've known coworkers immediately dislike another because it was "found out" that's what she was. And these were Christians of other denominations. They also knew what my faith was and I was never ostracized like this girl was.


They probably are projecting a lot of their own experiences. The difference, though, between the perceptions of Paganism and other religions is that, while others may disapprove of Muslims, Mormons, etc, for the most part, they do not doubt the sincerity of those who follow those paths. Has any Muslim ever been told "oh you're not really a Muslim, you are just trying to shock people/get back at your parents?" Somehow, I doubt it. That is not the case with Wicca/Paganism. How many portrayals of "actual" Wiccans (not wandwaving hocus-pocus witches a la Wizard of Oz) in popular culture are NOT disaffected teenagers or fat, crystal-bedecked shopowners selling snake oil to rubes (episodes of South Park, The SImpsons, and King of the Hill spring immediately to mind, but there are plenty more). In the experience of many pagans, at least those who are causing an uproar anyway, I would dare to guess there have been numerous incidents where others have dismissed their spirituality as a fad, or an affectation, or a way to rebel or create an "alternative" image for themselves. To be discriminated against or made fun of for following a particular path is one thing, but to be told you are not "really" what you say you are is a little too much to handle for people who are sensitive to begin with, and I can understand that. I imagine it would be akin to a gay man being told they "just haven't met the right girl yet."

[Tiberias]

People of varying religious beliefs, including pagans, are often ridiculously uptight and lacking in a sense of humor when it comes to their own beliefs. And this is news how?

[of black birds]

They probably are projecting a lot of their own experiences. The difference, though, between the perceptions of Paganism and other religions is that, while others may disapprove of Muslims, Mormons, etc, for the most part, they do not doubt the sincerity of those who follow those paths. Has any Muslim ever been told "oh you're not really a Muslim, you are just trying to shock people/get back at your parents?" Somehow, I doubt it. That is not the case with Wicca/Paganism. How many portrayals of "actual" Wiccans (not wandwaving hocus-pocus witches a la Wizard of Oz) in popular culture are NOT disaffected teenagers or fat, crystal-bedecked shopowners selling snake oil to rubes (episodes of South Park, The SImpsons, and King of the Hill spring immediately to mind, but there are plenty more). In the experience of many pagans, at least those who are causing an uproar anyway, I would dare to guess there have been numerous incidents where others have dismissed their spirituality as a fad, or an affectation, or a way to rebel or create an "alternative" image for themselves. To be discriminated against or made fun of for following a particular path is one thing, but to be told you are not "really" what you say you are is a little too much to handle for people who are sensitive to begin with, and I can understand that. I imagine it would be akin to a gay man being told they "just haven't met the right girl yet."

So instead of jumping on his throat and in the process showing that negativity to everyone that is following his project - non-pagans - what type of image are we trying to portray? So what's worse, some one saying "You must not be serious" to being shouted down at your own (http://youtu.be/NutFkykjmbM) place? This was actually near my neighborhood. And yes, I'm sure we all have our horror stories and we can link to videos of politicians making ignorant remarks regarding our faith (Or one about "still worshiping Hermes, like, lol!"). BTW, South Park makes fun of everything. They even called Mormonism "bullsh**" in an episode called "All about Mormons". And didn't Lisa Simpson had a stint as a Wiccan? Though last I heard she might be Buddhist now.

I believe in educating people. I believe in being the best example of what you live. I had coworkers not believe me at first because I was such "an amazing, kind, humble and intelligent person" and from their community, such people were examples of what a good Christian was. That did not make them a horrible person to assume I "couldn't therefor be Pagan" but only showed that good people come of all faiths. That's the example you give. You show him how the media has distorted our faith, how it has polluted it. You show them the beauty of the religion and what it can do.

[grug]

I think what is making a lot of Pagans angry is that he is treating his "month of Wicca" as a novelty compared to other religions, something to do in a tongue-in-cheek manner as opposed to an actual exploration of Pagan religious practices and values. There is a sensitivity in our community towards anyone who would take our paths lightly, more so than with other religions. I think this is due to the fact that, in addition to actual persecution and discrimination, we are also often subjected to more mocking then just about any other religion in existence! We are very often made into a joke, something rebellious teens do before they grow up and get a "real life," or some other stereotype that suggests we are not serious about our paths, but rather looking to simply shock our friends and family.

Also, the dull, tired trope of shocked discovery at the fact that we don't worship Satan or eat babies is bordering on insulting. Do we REALLY still have to begin every conversation about our spiritual paths in this way? I think taking the time to refute those ridiculous fears from outsiders is doing more to keep them around than to get rid of them.

As for me, I am not particularly emotional about it. This is the natural byproduct of the reality-tv age, where even an intense spiritual journey can be broken down into sound bytes and witty remarks. If this blogger insists on treating Paganism as a novelty, the least we can do is return the favor.

I reckon the Jews may have something to say about being perecuted and being the butt of jokes. No matter where you go you will always find people who are either ignorant or insensitive to just about anything.

[cheddarsox]

I don't have an emotional investment one way or another just a few thoughts I'd like to share that sprang to mind while I read this thread.

When I was a little kid a book came out called "Black Like Me" this caucasian man somehow had his appearance altered so he could pass for black and then write about what it was like to be a black man in America...um, as if there were not millions of black men who could speak of their experience for real? As in, not pretending to be black for a month or a year, but actually knowing and experiencing through the different stages of life, etc etc.

I mean, I understand that this was an invaluable experience for him personally, and a gift for him to share it with others, but....It presents the experience of being a black american at that time through a filter that brings certain aspects into focus while missing others, and can come across as a gross misrepresentation, and outright condescending to the people who's experience is supposedly being illuminated.

It's a valid viewpoint as long as it's made clear that what is being shared is a non participants attempt to participate.

I attended Unitarian Universalist fellowships for a number of years. The common theme is respect for all faiths and recognizing that all faiths have wonderful things to teach us and tools toward a deeper spirituality. In Principle this sounds awesome. In practice it often played out as people who had no real experience in a particular faith tradition presenting a PC/kumbaya version of it. Under the guise of respect, I saw many many faiths disrespected or misrepresented out of ignorance, or an attempt to be inclusive, politically correct etc. True respect doesn't mean you change the words to the songs and prayers of another faith, alter their myths to fit your 21st century liberal stance, etc.
UU has many good things to offer, but I found this to be a common, serious and repeated issue.

Even a well meaning person can stir up a great deal of mischief and erroneously pass on misinformation.

Beware the armchair coach, quarterback, priestess, CEO. Rather than getting out and doing a thing themselves, they watch someone else do it, declare themselves an expert and then teach others their spin on it without personal experience. It's like the child's game of "telephone" by the time the message gets to the end of the line, it's barely recognizeable.

I can understand why some people are concerned.

[Katsbrain]

Judging by your answers to my posts, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not trying to justify the vitriolic reactions of some pagans, I am trying to offer an explanation as to why they are so angry. They perceive someone as making light of their faith, and whether that perception is valid or not is irrelevant to them. They are perceiving it, and it is triggering a reaction born of what is likely years of frustration at having to constantly inform people that their faith is NOT something that they are trying on for a while, or using as an immature "middle finger" to society. Is it counterproductive? Yeah, but it's understandable. (and yes, South Park makes fun of everyone, but that doesn't mean those who are hurt by a particular episode don't have a right to their feelings, and it doesn't mean the show doesn't contribute to the misconceptions about us, or anyone else that falls under their sardonic gaze. The episode of The Simpsons where Lisa became a Wiccan (sort of, and only as a way to "fit in" with other outcasts) is exactly what I am talking about.)

I agree entirely that we are responsible for projecting our own positive image onto society at large. That is the best course of action for countering the misrepresentations and ignorance of others that we encounter all the time. I am simply trying to illustrate what is a possible stumbling block in front of that goal for some people.

[Fiamma]

Merry Meet, Blessed Be, and welcome to my first day on the Wiccan path!

I had to shake my head a little. Oh em gee.

Has anyone read the blogs, livejournals etc of many other noob Wiccans/pagans/whatever? I've read the couple of posts for what so far exists in this guy's "Wiccan" month and were it not for the fact that I know about his project, I wouldn't have known the difference. Quite floofy, shaky research at best- though I've seen far, far worse and yeah, the requisite "but we don't eat babies or worship Satan!" disclaimer.

But most folks don't even bat an eyelash when anyone else does it. Yeah, I think this guy's execution is flawed, but as far as I can see, at worst it's right there in the middle of the mediocrity of everyone else. There's nothing really that I can find worth any special comment, no worse than any new, poorly-informed person who may or may not eventually to go on and learn better. I've seen far worse from people who have supposedly been at it for a decade or more. Hell, at least he doesn't have big, blinky .gif files up there declaring "never again teh berning tymezzzz!"

[childofcrow]

I did this a few years ago : http://12steptradition.wordpress.com. I didn't have any problems at all. Some of the people from the different sects were flakey. I think that this Star lady is totally over-reacting. I commend him on choosing October, as it's a month often associated with witches.

[Socinus]

Because the Pagan community tends to fly a little under the radar of most people, it's members can get a little ruffled when someone shines a spotlight on it.

Most people have found a comfortable spot in their communities where the right people know about them and the right people dont, they've fallen into a comfortable place suited to their religious beliefs and needs. When someone comes along and shakes everything up and gets people buzzing about it, that disrupts that comfort zone.

By and large, Pagans generally aren't as public as members of other religions so there's a tendency to stick to familiar groups.

[IvyWitch]

Star has a good point - his treatment of all religions is pretty shallow, and to be honest, because it just comes off as someone checking out different hobbies and interests, instead of having a serious look into a number of religious traditions, I wonder what the point of the whole project really is.

Now, to be fair he's really in a hard to win situation - had Paganism not been included people would have cried discrimination, however it is telling that his brief stint as a Wiccan was full of fluff.