Islam IS ( 1 )

[meditations]

Greeting and peace to all

Following the quesiton posted a few days ago "What is Islam"
and reading the replies in it , I will try to write a series of posts about Islam , hoping to shed some light on a topic that's always accompanies with misconceptions and misunderstanding.

I'll try to explain briefly in simple words from a muslim point of view what is Islam , how we view and live it.
Hoping the information will be helpful to anyone interested in knowing the fastest growing religion on this planet.

Islam is ( 1 )

Islam will probably be categorized in library books under religions, beliefs and methodologies..etc.

Though is this quite true , Islam is much more than a religion.

Islam to the muslim individual is a way of living, a way of communicating with themselves, those around them, other people , the universe and the most important , a way to communicate with their Creator.

This is attained through a variety of practices that are both spiritual and physical , providing a balance in the way muslims live their everyday life.

The basic of Islam is belief

We believe in
1- One God ( Allah is the arabic word for God ) , the Creator of everything and dominant over everything , all knowing , most merciful.
2- all prophet and messengers sent by God throughout the years , and books revealed to them.
3- Heaven and hell , and judgment day
4- Destiny with it’s good and bad ( still we believe in freewill , and that any action done by someone is the result of his own free will )

This is the main belief which the muslim faith revolves around.

Islam has 5 practices that are necessary for the muslim to do

1- Witnessing that there’s no God but God ( Allah ) and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
2- Performing Salat ( Salat means praying , what’s meant is performing the 5 obligatory prayers )
3- Giving Zakat ( zakat is charity given to certain kinds of needy people , and it’s taken from those who have extra unused amount of money or wealth in their possessions for a period of time )
4- Fasting the month of Ramadan ( during this month muslims fast from sunrise to sunset )
5- Doing Hajj for those who are capable of ( Hajj is the pilgrimage journey to the holy city of mecca , and during it , there’re many illustrations of scenes from the day of judgement )

This was a very brief introduction on Islam

An excellent place to read a bit into each of these topics is

http://www.islam-guide.com/
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam

I will try later to discuss each of these in more depth very soon In shaa Allah ( If God wills )

I apologize for taking this time , but have been quite busy in the past few days , hopefully the coming week will be much slower with more freetime

Thank you for reading , and I’m looking forward to any questions

Meditations

[FLipsiDE]

Should we reply here or in the "What is Islam thread?"

[Danustouch]

Heheh...Sorry Flip. It's getting confusing. I guess...reply here to what he's already said :)

[meditations]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE

Should we reply here or in the "What is Islam thread?"


Hi there

It seems I didn't get a full view of how this community usually discusses subjects and started a new thread causing some confusion.

I think we'll stick in here for questions regarding what's written , and in "What is Islam" for your personal view of Islam

That should keep things in order I think ?

Thanks and sorry for the confusion

[Danustouch]

Not a problem, Meditations :) We just wanted to make sure we put our posts where they would be noticed and replied to :) Thanks for clearing it up :)

[Danustouch]

Okay..I have a few questions. :)

On the topic of Zakat...what are the certain types of needy people whom charity is given? How is it arranged ? Through donations of those in the Mosque? Do they give a monthly amount of money to the Mosque, and then the Mosque gives it to the worthy causes, or do they donate directly to the needy people? What kinds of causes are contributed to?

Regarding Hajj- what is its goal? Is it to pay respect to Mohammad, To Allah? Both? Is the goal to view those illustrations of good and bad, and judgement day, as "lessons" or "reminders"? Are both Men and Women supposed to do Hajj? How is it determined whether or not a person is able to do it?

[maat]

First of all let me mention that I am not muslim, I have however been trying to learn more about islam during the last few months,
so all that I say is only what I have read so far and my own opinion on the subject.

When it comes to zakat....
Zakat is given once a year, and it is usualy 2.5% of the money you have to spare, after taking care of your own needs, food, rent and things like that, 2.5% of the money on your bank account, that you have been able to save during the year, not from previuce years. It can be given to a mosk, or to a charety. Some mosks keep lists of ppl that are elagable to receve zakat. I know that you can give zakat online. or to a charety of your choise. To give zakat is a must, it is one of the 5 pillars of islam and something every muslim must do if he is able to do it. You can ofcorse give more than 2.5% if you whant to, but giving more zakat, and braging about it is lookt down on.


When it comes to the haijj...
The haijj is also one of the 5 pillars of islam, and all pilars are for every muslim, man or woman. They both have the same responcebiletys when it comes to religion, and religiuse duties. Men and women have a responcibilety first to God, to Allah. As far as i understand it is up to yoruself to deside if you ar able to do the haijj, and for most muslims, this is one of the greatest wishes.

This is a link that talks in depth about the 5 pilars, and a site that i found usefull i hope that it will help somone find answers
http://www.islamzine.com/pillars/

[Danustouch]

Thank you Maat, for your explanations, and welcome to Mysticwicks! :)

[meditations]

Originally posted by Danustouch

Okay..I have a few questions. :)

On the topic of Zakat...what are the certain types of needy people whom charity is given? How is it arranged ? Through donations of those in the Mosque? Do they give a monthly amount of money to the Mosque, and then the Mosque gives it to the worthy causes, or do they donate directly to the needy people? What kinds of causes are contributed to?



Hi Dan
it's funny , because I have been asked a very similar question about zaka today as well

Before talking about zakah , it's worth mentioning there're two types of charity in Islam

One that's obligatory on the wealthy ( zakah ) and thus it has specific percentage and certain outlets ( you can think of it as the state taxes in our modern times )

and another that is volunteerly for anyone to give, whether wealthy or not ( callded sadaqah )

Sadaqah can be anything , and given to almost anyone .. it can even be an action ..
there's a hadith that says "your smile in the face of your brother is sadaqah"
( hadith means a saying by Muhammad (PBUH)

That said , I'd like to thank maat first for her reply in here , I just would like to add few things

The types of recipient of zakah

1- The poor
2- The needy
3- The zakah employees ( those who work on collecting/distributing it )
4- The new converts to Islam whose hearts we want to harmonize into the fold of Islam, either because their faith is weak or we are afraid of their being harmed, should be given Zakaat to strengthen their Iman or until we no longer fear their harm.
5- The bonds person ( at the times of slavery , zakat would be given to slaves to free themselves out of bondage )
6- The people in debt
7- To support jihad on the path of Allah ( aka for the military )
8- The traveller who runs out of money


In the past , each person would give their zakat to an entity called ( Bayt Elmal .. House of money ) that would distribute it to any or all of the 8 kinds of recipients

but now the house of money doesn't exist anymore , and it's left for everyone's personal preference

some would give it to those whom they know that deserve it

some would give it to trusted charity organizations ( or mosques )which declares it recieves zakat and gives it out in it's legitimate recipients

some people volunteer on telling others about those in need
and so on.

This was very brief and not so accurate post regarding zakat

I suggest you read these following links for more information regarding this topic

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_79.html#HEADING140

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/fus3_46.html


Hope this helps

And Allah knows best.

[meditations]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Regarding Hajj- what is its goal? Is it to pay respect to Mohammad, To Allah? Both? Is the goal to view those illustrations of good and bad, and judgement day, as "lessons" or "reminders"? Are both Men and Women supposed to do Hajj? How is it determined whether or not a person is able to do it?

Hajj is one of the great practices for the muslim person , that almost everyone wishes to perform

It's obligatory at least once in a lifetime on every sane adult ( whether male or female ) who is capable financially , and physically.

It's left for the individual to determine if they are capable of doing it or not , however they should understand it is their duty to make it if they are , and if they don't , they'll be questioned for that.

Hajj is a practice that combine deifferent types of worship

there're worships that are spiritual and physical , like praying or fasting
and others that are financial , like zakat

Hajj combines all these types , as it requires money , physical strength and spirit

Like any practices in Islam , there are many "goals" or the wisdoms behind it
some of these as mentioned before is to be an example of judgment day
another is to leave all the world behind , and travel to a certain destination , following the orders of your Creator , showing submission and willingless to ovey

not to mention unity between people , who come from so many different places , but heading into only one
wearing the same cloths , saying the same things , walking the same walk
no difference between between rich or poor , white , black or asian
all equal , nothing differentiates one from another but their sincerety

There're many books written only on the wisdom of Hajj , I will try to find some in english online if I have time later


Also , I think it's worth mentioning again as maat stated that in Islam both men and women are subject to the same practices and duties ( unlike what many think ) and both are rewarded and judged the same way.

Hope this helps

you might want to read

Pilgrimage: a general definition, its excellence and prerequisites
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/fus5_66.html

and Allah knows best

[Danustouch]

Thank you meditations. I think that the idea's behind Hajj are very lovely. And I definitely have a greater understanding of why this is one of the Pillars of your faith now. Actually, I think it's quite beautiful :)

As for Zakat..ok.. this gave me an open door into some perhaps, deeper waters. When it is said that one can give Zakat to the Military (for Jihad in the Path of Allah). Which Military are we speaking of? For instance, does it have to be the Military of a Muslim Country? Does this mean that Islam DOES condone the funding of terror networks? Or does it have to be an actual military of an actual country? I don't know if my question is clear, if not, please let me know :) I know that you are Not American (or at least thats the impression I got from your pm) But..for instance, if there were Muslims here in the states During the American Civil War, and a Muslim chose to donate their zakat to the Union Army, because they believed that slavery needed to be abolished, would that have been considered a Zakat given to Jihad? If during WWII, a Muslim had chosen to give funds to the American or Allied Forces in Europe, would that have been considered giving to a Jihad? Or does it have to specifically be military which is distinctly geared to furthering Islam?

I look foward to hearing your replies.

Oh....and as for the responsibilities within Islam, for Men and Women Being equal...many of us have heard of inequality between men and women within Islam. Especially with all of the media saturation about the Taliban :( Could you please perhaps give your opinion on this? Are men and women considered equal within Islam? And if so, how so.....might you cite some further examples? If not, would you say that within Islam, Men have a greater "role" or more responsibilities than women? Are women supposed to be submissive to their husbands? Is this considered an honor to Allah? I know that within Christianity, taking another religion as an example, it is often said that men are the head of the household, and basically, the interpreter of Gods will to women. In other words, they take on the role of counselor, or teacher to their wives. (I think this has far more to do with the culture surrounding the apostle Paul, actually). And I know that within Judaism, at least, at one time, women were supposed to sit seperately than men, and were not allowed to learn the Talmud and other separations. Are there any such separations, which might be perceived as inequalities between the sexes, within Islam?

I know I'm giving you ALOT of questions to work on
:p
But I hope you'll enjoy answering them, as much as I enjoy asking them. I really do want to learn more about Islam, and find such an opportunity to be very exciting.

Blessings :)

[FLipsiDE]

Heh heh... I know you have a backlog of questions but, here are some more. ;)


[one o fthe pillars of Islam is:] 3. Heaven and hell , and judgment day

Is the concept of Heaven and Hell similar to the Christian concept? Everyone except for those who have made the right choice of religions gain entrance? Devils with pitchforks and an air conditioner set on 'fat chace'? Is Hell for all Eternity, or is it possible to be excused from it? (One of the more interesting Mormon concepts IMO, praying for the salvation of the dead) What actions determine your entrance to Heaven or Hell? (Everyone not Muslim? Only for bad actions?) Is there a concept of Original Sin or a synonymous concept?


4- Destiny with it’s good and bad ( still we believe in freewill , and that any action done by someone is the result of his own free will )
Cool! But how does this work? If you have free will then how does destiny exist? (I know many pagans who hold this kind of belief and I know how they would answer. Just looking for similarities in thought.)

I really like your explination of the Hajj. I think that would be a very powerful spiritual experience.

[maat]

having read the answers, and questions on the board i just had to pop in again.
meditations is a friend of mine since a few months, and also the one that have been helping me to learn more about islam, and about what it is beeing muslim. and there have been so many things i didnt know, so many new ideas, and thoughts. I started out knowing nothing but what everyone can read about islam, and lets be honest. they realy dont know what they are talking about many times. the face of islam that we can see in media is a reflection on islam, and cultur/ tradition. traditions that many times dont have anything atall to do whith islam, but have been explaind in media as a part of islam. i am a 27 year old swedish woman, the consept of acting submisive to a man just becus he is a man and religion dictates it feelt wrong. but that is not what its about.

islam is equal, but whith differences. men and women have the same recponcebiletys to God /Allah. but there roles are different. Both men and women are suposed to dress and act moddest. yes, in the Quran it is said that women shuld cover there hair and dress in loos dresses. to cover there beuty and not draw attention to themselfs but it is also said that men shuld dress in loos clothings, and that no part from the belly button to the knees may be shown.

strangly enough after reading pages and pages of intervues, of storries from women, about the consept of Hijab ( the vail )i can apriciate the freedom it gives. women are beeing judged on aperences more now than ever before. but as whith most things in islam, hijab isent just a scarf drapet to cover your hair. it is much more, it also how you move, and act.

yes, the husband in a famely is the head of the household, but he is required to listen to his whife. he is not a dictator, that can do whatever he whishes, to go against his whifes opinion and not even bother to ask it. but in the end, it is he who makes the final desition. and if the desition is wrong. it is also he that is responcible for that choise.

the husband is not considerd the link betwen God / Allah and the whife, every muslim have a direct link to Allah.

[Danustouch]

Thank you for your answers Maat. I think that helps to clarify. The ideal of the husband making the final decision is still an uncomfortable one for me, but it is good to hear that the wife does have input, and that the husband should also listen to his wife.

I think the thought of covering onesself is interesting. I do agree with what you say about it actually being a positive thing, in some respects. Causing one to be judged not on facial beauty alone. It's not something I myself could adopt in a practice, however, I do see how that would be a benefit to society in the way in which you've stated.

On this same topic, within Muslim Society, is domestic abuse condoned? Please understand, I am not asking out of a preconceived notion, or a predjudice, but a sincere desire to understand. As you've said, us non muslims have been bombarded with messages from the media, especially regarding women under the Taliban rule. I would like to hear the opinion OF an Islamic, rather than hearing the words of the Media. In my opinion, women under Taliban Rule, were horribly mistreated. Is this something which was specific to the Taliban, or are women similarly treated elsewhere within Muslim Society? Also...within Muslim Culture, what are the penalties for rape? Does the man receive punishment? The woman? Both? And what about Divorce? Do women have the right to petition for a divorce under any circumstances?

[maat]

it is true, that there are verses in the Quran that states that hiting once whife is alowd, but that dont meen it is part of islam. Mohamed himself never layd a hand on any of his whifes, and as far as i can see, this whas actaly something he seemd to dissagree whith to a point. and even in the verses in the Quran that speeks of hiting, its not a slap, or beating your whife. it only speeks of it as a last resort, after everything else have faild. there is several options, try talking to her, if she still continues whith what it is that is wrong, then talk again, turn away from her, only as a last resort, and even then, its not a blow, it is not even suposed to leave a mark.

as meditations have said to me many times, just becus something is alowd in islam, dont meen your suposed, or have to do it.
look to how the profet Mohamed lived, he respected his whifes, and there opinions, and oftend spoke to them about things. if it wasent for his first whife, then it is a posebilety that islam wuldent be what it is today. she whas his suport, and the first to belive in his revalations.

i find this part verry hard to acept myself, that somone wuld be alowd to hit me. but the missuse and abuse of women that we can see in the news, in some muslim contrys. it is not islam, women are tresured in islam, or in the Quran anyway. you will be amazed in the difference what the Quran say, and what is doen in the name if islam all over the world, but that is true for many religions.


try and find a copy of thr Quran, or read this one online http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/, it is a verry interesting book, and make you see things in a whole new light

[meditations]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE

Heh heh... I know you have a backlog of questions but, here are some more. ;)

Yep , and I apologize for being away for a while



Cool! But how does this work? If you have free will then how does destiny exist? (I know many pagans who hold this kind of belief and I know how they would answer. Just looking for similarities in thought.)


I would be interesting to know how they would answer , I will paste below a discussion I had before with a buhdist regarding destiny



I really like your explination of the Hajj. I think that would be a very powerful spiritual experience.
I really hope so

=====================

That buhdist question was
===============
philosophy for today......
if we don't "lead" our life and in fact are "lead"
then why did "God" give us free choice and if he didn't what is his purpose
for agony and suffering.....why not pre program us to understand that we
have no ultimate control over who and how and what we are while he/she/them/
are up there directing this orchestra we call life.
===============
and that's my reply


now that's an interesting quesiton ... have been the subject of numerous debates
for ages
the issue of Preordainment and destiny that's sometimes is hard to explain , or to put into words

anyways

In your short philosphical statement you actually have many questions to be answered if I understand correctly , these would be
1- do we have free choice or not
2- why did God give us free choice
3- If he didn't , what's the purpose of agony and suffering
4- why not pre program us to understand that we have no ultimate control over who and how and what we are
now those are very interesting questions .. I'll try to put what I think of it into words

1- do we have free choice or not ?
hhmmm
I don't think that's actually the question , but it's rather .. how much of a free choice we do have ?
right in this exact moment while you're reading this ... you have many choices.
you can read this mail , delete it .. turn off your computer , turn around and watch tv ...etc. that's a simple proof that you have a free choice in these matters
but looking at different matters
like
what your children will look like , the color of your hair , how tall you are , the way your lung works ,how many beats your heart will beat , how many blood cells your body is producing ..etc.
you'll see you have very tiny control over it then again some secular thinking would argue that we DO have control over these things using whatever new advanced technologies ..etc.
then you can point at many other things that you don't and even in theory will not have control over , in ourselves , our life , and our universe ( what mood I'll wake up in , will I even wake up or not the next day , can I control this man next door not to come and shoot me ...etc. )
to sum it .... what I belive in is that
we have free will , in all the things we have a choice in and don't have free will in all matters that we have no control over


we don't have a choice if we'll be born tall or short , strong or weak , sick or healthy , rich or poor ...etc.
but we DO have a choice on what to do with this body we have ( whether it's strong or weak , big or small ) .. we have a choice in what we're going to use it for .. good or bad ... to help the weak , or opress them .. we have a choice in what to do with our wealth , how to spend .. share or keep ..
and this is obviously is variant from one individual to the other .... as each has a different level of control
this is why life is a a very special personalized experience , no one's life is exact to another's.

another way to put is
you bring someone , give him some tools .. and ask them to do something with it you judge them according to the tools they had , and what they did you bring another give them different set of tools , and judge them according the tools 'they specifically had' and the works they did
and so on , and so on
and it's the choices that we make ,the works that we do , and how much we put into it is what we'll be asked for and judged accordingly ...
Versus from the Quran that comes into mind are

091.007 By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
091.008 And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
091.009 Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
091.010 And he fails that corrupts it!


now if you look at it from an individual prespective , it is a bit narrow .. but looking at it from a wider view .. it starts to making more sense , and becomes clearer , and you start to realize the power of the Creator , in orchestrating ( as you put ) this life we live.

you start seeing that someone's free choice , is actually another's destiny , and someone's destiny determines the way a third's choice would be , and so on , and so on
an example that comes into mind to explain might be

2 brothers
one rich , one poor
a test
a choice
the rich helping the poor with money ... that's the rich's free choice .. to give the poor money or not .. while it's the poor's destiny to get money from his rich brother , which is something he has no control over then this poor's destiny becomes a free choice for the poor to spend correctly on his family , or waste on whatever .... and this free choice becomes destiny for them , shaping how they would do whatever afterward ....etc.

another choice
the rich ignoring the poor , and not caring , and treating him with arrogance ... a desting and test for the poor would he have patience ? would he be content with the little he has ? or get greedy and try to get more by other methods .. ? would he understand that he actually IS being tested ? how would he act with his family , what would he teach his children ? that rich people are nasty and ungly ? don't care about the poor ? that their uncle is bad ? that they should love/hate their cousins ?

and this shapes how the children will be like , which is their destiny .. and leads them to making choices ... and so on , and on.

another versus that comes into mind , regarding judgment


099.007 Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
099.008 And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.


That's the sum of it I guess ...

Ok , that's getting long

am I making sense ? many times I don't .. *laugh

--------------------


2- why did God give us free choice


a simple answer would be
"because it's our destiny , it's what God destinied on us"

a more thorough answer , would be

God already has many races and creatures , with many missions and reasons .. some have no choice , nor free will
like animals , plants , and so many creatures around us ..
who have no logical thinking or a sense of valuing and distincting , but they go by instinct ..which is the code that God gave them .. and inspires them with.
then there're angels , who as you put it , pre programmed to do the good , and whatever they're asked to do ( but of course that's if you believe that angels exist , or that there're other creatures beyond what our senses can sense )
and there's jinns , from which devils descend ... who are same like us , but made their choice to go for the evil .. and refusing to follow God's orders

and there's us , humans ... who are in the middle of all this .. with a free will , and messages from God
and we're left there to decide ..what to do with this free will , and these messages
will we listen to it ... and decide to follow what God told us to do .. which leads us to a state even higher than angels .. because we do the good out of our choice , not because we're pre prgrammed
or would we follow our desires , wherever it takes us ... whether we should or not

a verse that comes into mind
======================
Quran 067.002
He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
======================

that's the whole point of this period in our creation .. think of it like school period ... in the end comes the exam that sums it all ... and after exam comes results .. and according to results you go to college , university .. or wherever.

*wondering if I'm making sense ,

3- If he didn't , what's the purpose of agony and suffering

The first part is already answered .. as for the second
a simple look at this universe will show us contrast ... light and darkness , good and bad , sweet and salty , sunset and surise
it's the darkness that makes us see the light and value it .. otherwise we'd never feel the value of light
the agony and suffering are tests .. like many other tests like good health and happiness .. and it shapes us , teaches us many values , and tests us as well .

some verses that comes into mind are

======================
089.015
Now, as for man, when his Lord trieth him, giving him honour and gifts, then saith he, (puffed up), "My Lord hath honoured me."

089.016
But when He trieth him, restricting his subsistence for him, then saith he (in despair), "My Lord hath humiliated me!"

089.017
Nay, nay! but ye honour not the orphans!

089.018
Nor do ye encourage one another to feed the poor!-

089.019
And ye devour inheritance - all with greed,

089.020
And ye love wealth with inordinate love!
======================

these verses describe exactly how some people think of life as ON/OFF .. so if they get wealth , they're like .. God is happy about me , and if they get poor they're like God is upset about me

it's telling them NO NO , you're measuring it wrong ... God makes wealthy those who are good and not good... and makes poor those who are good or not good
both richness and poorness are tests .. whether the rich will be thankful or not .. and whether the poor would be patient and content or not
and this is all looks strange by looking at it at limited timeframe .. and many times it doesn't make sense if you do so
same like if never seen football game in your life , then you watch 5 minutes of a game ..
the actions will look bizzare and unexplainable to you ... but looking at the whole game till the end , and knowing the rules . it'll all seem perfectly right to you.

this life we're living is just a period in a long timeline .. if we look at just one part of the timeline ... we might not understand many things
but trying to look at the whole timeline .. events would look clear and logical .. and many of that which looked confusing , will make perfect sense ... and you'll start wondering "how come I couldn't see it before!!"

4- why not pre program us to understand that we have no ultimate control over who and how and what we are

The first part is already answered in number 2 I think .. the second regarding control
it's only the arrogant or the fool who would think they have control over such things ... just look at yourself and wonder if you can have control tobe someone else , or to have a body like someone else's or the brain of someone else's .. or the sense of humour another has ...etc.
you have no control over the tools you were given
but
you have control over what you're going to do with these tools

I hope I could somehow answer your 'philosophical thoughts
I wonder what you think , and your views about this topic

======================


And Allah knows best.

Meditations

http://www.islamicity.com

[Illuminatus]

Sorry, I have to step in here and rain on your parade. I have to say a few things, and please understand that this is not hate-speech, and I'm not a racist, and I'm not trying to provoke anyone. This does not apply to Muslims living in western nations, either. All I'm trying to get across is that there is a darker element to Islam than what you see on Oprah.

Islam is NOT all roses and candy canes. Certainly, the usual answer you get when you ask a muslim "What is Islam?", the response is "Islam is Peace". The 5 pillars are excellent tennants, worthy guidelines for anyone to live their life by.

But there's a lot wrong too. First off, Islam isn't just a religion. It so completely dominates its follower's lives that it is the driving force behind every single aspect of their lives. Here's some things you won't find in Islamic countries:

- seperation between church and state. This is forbidden by the Koran. In Islam, God's law is the ONLY law.

- freedom of speech. Blasphemy, or speaking against Islam is forbidden.

- woman's rights. Women are largely viewed as property. Men may have up to 5 wives in some areas, though they must treat them equally.

- free markets - taking or even GIVING interest to someone is a sin.

Now, here are some things you WILL find:

- capital punishment - Yes, I know, the US has this too. But it is far more prevalent in Islamic nations. Breaking those 4 tennants I listed above are all justifcations to be stoned in many places. And women, be careful not to get raped by someone who isn't your husband, they'll stone you for that too. Stealing is grounds for amputation of a hand.

- The 6th pillar of Islam. Oh, didn't meditations tell you? There are more than 5 pillars, there are actually 6. The 6th is Jihad, or terror. On paper, this one doesn't look so bad. The jihad is fought largely with oneself - the inner battle to obey Allah's many strict tennants (no alcohol or drugs, fervent prayer, etc). It also applies to a holy-war of self-defense in extreme situations. Though in the real world, the jihad has taken on a life of its own, beyond these sparse roots.

Yes, charity is wonderful. But not all that charity money goes to the needy. Hammas gets hundreds of millions of dollars annually, and while that organization does provide a great deal of real aid and healthcare to palestinians, they provide an equal amount of schooling (read: brainwashing), training (read: military) and supplies (read: bomb-making supplies) for the palestinian "resistance" forces. It goes beyond Israel, of course. Muslims largely view the American lifestyle as decadent and corrupt. To them, a Mardi Gras sinfest is the tantamount offense against Allah - a celebration of gluttony, drunkenness, sexual promiscuity, self-indulgance - blasphemy on so many levels, they view it as a crime ten times greater than, say, mass murder. That is why they hate us. Because that is our culture, and our culture is slowly beginning to dominate the world - American music, pop-stars, movies, books, eateries... our decadence threatens their pious way of life in a way most Americans cannot even comprehend. This is why many Islamic extremists have emerged, calling for war on the west. Always, there are extremists in any culture. But here, they have the support of the masses.

Israel, they also hate, not so much because they like the Palestinians, but because it pays to have a scapegoat.

The 4 problems I listed above often combine to make this rift between cultures even worse. Since there is no free press ( my second bullet-point above ), the state-controlled media can direct attention away from domestic issues, instead focusing on a conflict thousands of miles away. Egypt in particular is notorious for this.

Since the only schools worth mentioning teach only religion, this culture that was once famous for embracing scientific advancement (cirra 800-1300), has not budged technologically in hundreds of years. The Renaissance didn't make it any further than Istanbul.

You begin to see where I am coming from.

There are other aspects, that I won't go into just yet... Islam's dubious origins, its bloody history, it's virulent and violent spread, but those are really secondary to the main stuff I just brought up.
Already this is a huge amount of information to digest, no doubt you're going to want to debate or refute what I've already said before you're ready to hear more.

On a final note, I don't hate Muslims. I just recognise that there is a HUGE cultural and religious rift between myself and them. It's not so huge that it can't be bridged. Certain things need to happen first, before that can be. Those problems I listed, need to be fixed. Maybe some problems on my side also need to be fixed. Differences can be resolved, and perhaps here, in Mol and Semele's little corner of the internet, it will begin.

- llluminatus!

[cydira]

Ok, I've done a little reading in the Quran (sp?) and I am trying to make sense of a few things here as I look at how these things are applied.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, the Quaran is a book that contains spiritual instruction, the directives of Allah to his people, and the rules for the social welfare of Islamic peoples. Now, operating upon this assumption, I ask is the Quaran also a rule book for the governing of a nation of Islamic people or is it more of a guide, filled with suggestions?

I've noticed differences between nations that are predominantly of a more conservative Islamic perspective and a more liberal Islamic perspective. Many of these differences are found on matters like the wearing of the chador (sp?) and the legal rights of women. Also, there are differences in how banking is conducted and various other matters. It is a tad confusing to me when I see the Quran held up as the reason for these different laws, where the same passages are quoted for their reasons. I presume these differences are in interpretation.

Also, that brings to mind another matter that is somewhat confusing to me. Is the operation and use of a bank viewed as usury? I know that there is a passage in the Quran that bans usury (or at least in the translation I've got). And also, why is it that only the Arabic translation of the Quran is viewed as correct? Is this to prevent the myriad of differences in translation that abound in the different versions of the Bible or is this to preserve the cultural context of the Quran and prevent it from being altered by other cultures?

This historical implications of the latter question are quite interesting but I'm more curious because the translation of the Quran that I own was permitted to be translated and published with authorization by an Imam (I think..) only with the Arabic verson along side the English translation. While the Arabic is a beautiful script, it's rather confusing for me to even pick out individual letters. :p I'm going to avoid trying to translate it with an Arabic to English dictionary, right now. :T

Thanks for looking these questions over. You're doing a world of kindness to us by explaining your faith. :) Perhaps in this way you are meeting part of your religious responcibilities of the zakat (sp?). Just a thought, though, from some one who's still rather ignorant about Islam. :)

***
PS: I'm sorry if I offended by referring to folks as Islamic. I'm honestly not sure what is the correct term. Is it Islamic or Muslim? :confused:

[cydira]

While I'm not certian what the polite or correct responce is following my reading and thinking about what Illuminatus said, I'd have to say he does bring up some interesting points that should probably not be bypassed in this discussion.

However, it is equally vital to note that we pagans are not the harmless downtrodden folk that many of our community try to present us as. We have a history that is as unplesant as that of other religions and religious movements. Modern paganism, at least in the U.S., has attempted to move away from these past issues. It is vital, however, that we do not sweep them under a rug or forget about them.

I believe that part of having an honest discussion about any religious path is to recognize the weight of history on the subject at hand. We can not practice our religions in ways that are identical to those of our forefathers, they were different people then we are and they lived in very different conditions then we do. We may uphold the same beliefs and even go through the same rituals and rites of passage. We do not, however, carry the same burdens and concerns as our ancestors did. How many of us in the pagan community feel that we must appease the higher powers of the universe so that we may get enough food to live through the day? Probably not even a quarter of the number that did so during our ancestor's times. Instead, we focus on other matters, like enough money to pay our bills and to buy our grocaries. Not enough rain to make the crops grow or enough sunlight to keep us from flooding.

It's just a little point that I wanted to interject here before things got heated, as I dread they may. I'll toddle along now. :)

[meditations]

Originally posted by Illuminatus

I have to say a few things, and please understand that this is not hate-speech, and I'm not a racist, and I'm not trying to provoke anyone.

I will try to reply on these basis


This does not apply to Muslims living in western nations, either.


Muslims follow the same book and teachings all around the world , what would make the muslims living in western nations different than others ?


But there's a lot wrong too. First off, Islam isn't just a religion. It so completely dominates its follower's lives that it is the driving force behind every single aspect of their lives.


I'm not sure if you read the thread from the beginning or not , but it was stated very clearly ( and I'm quoting from the first few lines in the first post )

"Islam is much more than a religion.

Islam to the muslim individual is a way of living, a way of communicating with themselves, those around them, other people , the universe and the most important , a way to communicate with their Creator."

so coming now and saying it's not just a religion is like saying the sun rises from the east ( IMHO )



Before I reply here , I have to say I have 2 problems with this post of yours in regards to information presented , and logic it's presented with


First most of the information is
a) incorrect or inaccurate to the least
b) mixing between , Islamic beliefs/ruling and islamic countries along with generalizing between islamic countries which differ greatly
c) definitions used are too broad that can be understood in several ways , while you don't say WHICH way you mean for it to be understood

Second I'm having a problem with the logic you use

I feel that you bring a concept that you "assume" is right or ideal , then explain that it's not in Islam , and thus Islam is wrong

Either you're representing facts , or your own point of view based on facts.

but to mix facts , with a point view that you assume is the best , and present the two as a "fact"
then "assume" that those who have different point of view are wrong , is quite awkward to me
I find it to be belittling the readers mind.

That said , I'll try now to reply to some of what you said.



Here's some things you won't find in Islamic countries:

- seperation between church and state. This is forbidden by the Koran. In Islam, God's law is the ONLY law.



that's what I meant by logic and information problems

you assume that separating religion and state is good ( I'm not saying it's good/bad now , but making a point ) , then stating something you say it's from the Quran as a fact while you don't give the source your quoting ( aka the verse you're referring to ) ... then mixing it with a broad term ( islamic countries ) , then presenting your point of view that it's wrong .. as if it is a fact

I find this logic to be flawed

anyways

The term "Islamic countries" is quite mixing and very broad which countries are you referring to ? Morocco ? Saudi ? Malaysia ? Jordan ? Indonesia ?
These are all Islamic countries , and laws differ greatly from on country to the other

also , is the topic Islamic ruling ? or Islamic countries ?
being influenced by many years of occupation by mainly western countries most countries aren't applying Islamic teachings nor ruling , bur rather a semi version of the constitution forced years ago by the occupying force.



- freedom of speech. Blasphemy, or speaking against Islam is forbidden.


Islamic scholars throughout the years have challenged almost every aspect of Islam , questioning and studying.

as for freedom of speech
Islam guarantees each individual the right and freedom to express their views , provided that is being done' with respect and with proof.
There's no limit to the power of the one you're speaking against

a hadith ( saying ) by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says in part of it that best of the martyrs is that who says a word of truthfulness in front of a unjust ruler , and get killed for it

thus , encouraging freedom of speech for the right, against any kind of authority or power

In the same time as stated , this should be done with respect and proof , not plain accusations

for instance , if I accuse a man/woman of committing adultery , stealing , or many kinds of sins
I have to give witnesses stating what I say is true , otherwise it's me who gets punished.

This is done to protect the privacy , dignity and reputation of innocent people.


- woman's rights. Women are largely viewed as property.


This being one of the most propagated misconceptions about Islam

Islam gives women a great deal of rights and equality to the man , it needs more than this post to state fully.
so I will only state some simple facts

1- Women rights BEFORE Islam was almost non-existent whether it was in europe , persia or arab lands.

2- Islam doesn't accuse women ( eve ) of the original sin , but rather considers adam and eve equally responsible , thus not blaming women nor considering them a lower race because of that.

3- The majority of converts to Islam in that past years are women , and their reason for that IS women's rights in Islam is far superior to it in other religions ( christianity/judasim )

4- In Islam , women have a separate ownership of property than father/husband/brother ....etc. meaning the woman have control over what she owns.

5- There has been women in the position of ministers, scholars , reciters , rulers all throughout Islamic history

6- Hundreds of years ago , Shagarit El Durr , was the ruling queen of Egypt ( the actual ruler , not a mere queen position )

7- Right NOW , in year 2003 , a woman is the president of the largest Islamic country ( Indonesia ) and another is the president of one of the largest ( Bangladesh )

8- In Islam women have the right of choice for marriage and divorce

9- In Islam , the mother is the most respectful figure in a muslim's life ( 3 times more than the father )

there's a hadith ( saying ) by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
that says " Paradise lies beneath the feet of mothers

another hadith says

"The best of you are the kindest to their wives and I am your best to mine"


The list can grow very long , for further readings I suggest

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm
( click on Islam on top , then you'll have a women section )


Women in Islam
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/

The status of Muslim women versus women in Judaism and Christianity
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womeninjud_chr.html



Men may have up to 5 wives in some areas, though they must treat them equally.


That's a wrong statement , muslim men are not allowed to have 5 wives



- free markets - taking or even GIVING interest to someone is a sin.


Again a mix of wrong information , along side with a point view

Free markets and free trade is greatly encouraged by Islam

In fact , to the contrary to what some orientalists like to portray , Islam was spread mostly through trade with other nations

Places like Indonesia ( the largest Islamic country in the world population wise ) , china , malaysia ..etc. was introduced to Islam through free trade and free markets.

as for interest
you assume that a banking system based on interest is the ideal system

Islam has it's own economical and baking system that's superior to that presented in most western countries , which guarantees both parties rights and profits.

just because it doesn't work the way you want it to , doesn't make it wrong.




Now, here are some things you WILL find:

- llluminatus!

That I will try to reply tomorrow In shaa Allah ( If God wills )

May Allah send us all peace and guidnace.

[Danustouch]

Meditations-

I thank you for your thoughtful, and thought provoking replies. But if I may ask a question...

We in the US have heard alot about The Taliban's treatment of women. And we have also heard about women being stoned to death for adultery, while the male in the equation, is not so punished. We have heard many other atrocities perpetrated against women, in largely Islamic Countries, especially since the War in Iraq began..... I do realize that the actions of SOME Islamic individuals, does not represent the religious beliefs of Islam in and of itsself. However, you said that many of the legal and political systems within Islamic countries are actually systems which have been forced upon them from conquering nations. Can you please provide some examples of this? I think that would help to clarify. Also, you are making a distinction between Islamic Religion, and Islamic Rulings within Islamic Nations. I'm not quite sure I follow that. Are you saying that some of the laws which have been created in Muslim Countries have nothing to do with actual Islamic Scripture? Where did this diversion stem from?

And back to the topic of women..why is it that in Islamic Culture, a woman who is caught in an act of adultery can be put to death, but a man would not, if men and women are equal, and the sin of Adam and Eve is an equal sin?

I guess what I'm asking, is how did Islam in PRACTICE become differen't in some respects, from Islam in Thought (in scripture)?

[meditations]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Meditations-
I thank you for your thoughtful, and thought provoking replies. But if I may ask a question...


you're welcome, and ofcourse you may , but beware that I was about to sleep , so if I don't make much sense ,let me know :)


We in the US have heard alot about The Taliban's treatment of women.

Before I reply to that I'd like for you and anyone else to read this interesting interview that took place on March 10, 2001 at the University of Southern California

it was by a taliban ambassador to the US , speaking about Women's rights, education, and career opportunities in Afghanistan , the demolition of budha statues and many other topics

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/Taliban/talebanlec.html

I would be glad to answer any questions you might have after reading that.



And we have also heard about women being stoned to death for adultery, while the male in the equation, is not so punished.


Not true , Islamically a man or woman gets the same punishments for that.



We have heard many other atrocities perpetrated against women, in largely Islamic Countries, especially since the War in Iraq began


Like ???



However, you said that many of the legal and political systems within Islamic countries are actually systems which have been forced upon them from conquering nations. Can you please provide some examples of this? I think that would help to clarify.


That's quite simple , the 1st example that comes to mind is Iraq itself , though it's a muslim country , the ruling system was secular , that banned most of religious parties or activities

other examples of Islamic countries right off my head would be egypt, morroco , kuwait , jordan
most of these countries follow constiutions based on french or english laws.






Also, you are making a distinction between Islamic Religion, and Islamic Rulings within Islamic Nations. I'm not quite sure I follow that. Are you saying that some of the laws which have been created in Muslim Countries have nothing to do with actual Islamic Scripture? Where did this diversion stem from?


Yes , this is exactly what I'm saying .. and as previously siad , it came mostly from being occupied for long periods.



And back to the topic of women..why is it that in Islamic Culture, a woman who is caught in an act of adultery can be put to death, but a man would not, if men and women are equal, and the sin of Adam and Eve is an equal sin?


Again I don't know where you got that from
According to Islamic sharia ( law ) if a woman/man who has been in a wedlock gets the same punishment.



I guess what I'm asking, is how did Islam in PRACTICE become differen't in some respects, from Islam in Thought (in scripture)?

you know , this is the reason for the miserable state of most muslims these days, which is being apart from the scriptures
how this occured ?
this will need a quite long thread , but I really have to get some sleep right now

Hope this answered some of your questions though

Take good care

Salam ( peace )

[Danustouch]

Okay, I can't provide any sources off the top of my head, about the women who are punished while the men do not get punished for adultery. However, I will do a search tomorrow morning, and see if I can find some of the older articles that I have read.

As for the crimes being perpetrated against women today in countries such as Iraq, women are raped often, as a way for the government to exert control over the people. Amnesty Internationals Website discusses this at length. Now, while you are saying that Iraqs Government is not Islamic, there are surely Islamics in the Iraqi Army, and amongst the police force, no? So how can they allow these things to occur? Again, I am simply asking in an endeavor to understand.

Also...Okay, I understand what you are saying about how Islamic Religion differs from Islamic National Laws. But, could you please give us some examples of the discrepencies? That way, perhaps when we hear a statement saying that Islamics do a, b, or c, or believe a, b, or c, we can be informed enough to realize that it isn't the religion which condones it, but rather the law :)

One thing I'm confused about though. If Church and State are not separated within many Islamic Nations, it seems possible to me, that the Islamic Religious leaders would have a fair bit of influence over national law. So..in those cases where law is in distinct conflict with the Quran, how were these laws made? And does it pose an ethical problem for Islamic peoples, to follow laws which are not in alignment with the Quran?

And lastly, I must say that the article that you provided in regard to the Taliban, was fascinating. However, I would wish to closely examine why that speech was given. Secondly, most of what the interview contained, is in direct opposition to what most of us have seen on the news, read in papers, and even in opposition to what some of the Afghani women have said themselves. And to footage we have seen on the news, of what reporters witnessed while traveling in the region. But..more on that later :) I hope you are catching some sleep now. I hope to catch up with you soon.

Blessings.

[Rahul]

The ideal description of Islam will be-a product of the Arabian soil. It doesn't make sense, I for one, in my natural self's context.

For me, its not a natural development, which paganism ideally is, in my opinion, as opposed to creeds having their origin in the middle east. But we are living in a world with a rather different historical consciousness, we accept all that is unnatural and decadent as universally acceptable, however repressing that is to the essential human spirit.

For westerners, in the want of a religion, Islam can make a lot more sense. Most of all it shares a cosmology which is judaic in origin, as is the case with west's Christianity. It can replace Christianity, as another nihilist venture.

But what will be the product of a western Islam?

Its a question that cannot be easily answered.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by meditations

I will try to reply on these basis

Muslims follow the same book and teachings all around the world , what would make the muslims living in western nations different than others ?

A funny thing happens when people come to America. Back in the 1900's, America was called a "melting pot"... it is an apt name as any for the phenomena. Basicly what happens is this - a great many people from very different cultures are all blended together, forming a new conglomerate culture. Some traditions remain, but some are abandoned for new practices. Each new influx of immigrants brings new change. It happened with my mother's family 5 generations ago, and my fathers' family 3 generations ago, and it's happening to muslim immigrants now.

Basicly, muslims who come live in America keep the basics of their religion, but assimilate into American culture by necessity. Islam no longer pervades their life like some kind of thick fog that cannot be escaped. They can climb up high, and breathe the fresh breeze of freedom, social justice and prosperity. They abandon the old, backwards ways for better ones. I know several moslems, I work with a few. Guess what. They don't ride donkeys to work, they have SUV's, refinance their homes when interest rates fall, and engage in many modern, sensible practices that simply aren't done in the middle-east, outside Israel.



I'm not sure if you read the thread from the beginning or not , but it was stated very clearly ( and I'm quoting from the first few lines in the first post )

"Islam is much more than a religion.

Islam to the muslim individual is a way of living, a way of communicating with themselves, those around them, other people , the universe and the most important , a way to communicate with their Creator."

so coming now and saying it's not just a religion is like saying the sun rises from the east ( IMHO )

OK, so we agree on something! That's fine. Or did you want to squeeze in another 'I told you so!'




Before I reply here , I have to say I have 2 problems with this post of yours in regards to information presented , and logic it's presented with


First most of the information is
a) incorrect or inaccurate to the least
b) mixing between , Islamic beliefs/ruling and islamic countries along with generalizing between islamic countries which differ greatly
c) definitions used are too broad that can be understood in several ways , while you don't say WHICH way you mean for it to be understood

Second I'm having a problem with the logic you use

I feel that you bring a concept that you "assume" is right or ideal , then explain that it's not in Islam , and thus Islam is wrong

Either you're representing facts , or your own point of view based on facts.

but to mix facts , with a point view that you assume is the best , and present the two as a "fact"
then "assume" that those who have different point of view are wrong , is quite awkward to me
I find it to be belittling the readers mind.

That said , I'll try now to reply to some of what you said.

OK, that made no sense.

Yes, I did state that some actions are wrong. I am an absolutist, that means I believe there is an absolute right and wrong. Relativists think that circumstances and things like that matter. A relativist might think "Well, stoning a woman MIGHT be OK under certain circumstances". Whereas I take an absolutist stance and say "There is no set of circumstances in which a woman should have rocks thrown at her until she dies". Just one of the many moral chasms which seperate us I suppose.



that's what I meant by logic and information problems

you assume that separating religion and state is good ( I'm not saying it's good/bad now , but making a point ) , then stating something you say it's from the Quran as a fact while you don't give the source your quoting ( aka the verse you're referring to ) ... then mixing it with a broad term ( islamic countries ) , then presenting your point of view that it's wrong .. as if it is a fact

I find this logic to be flawed

That's a catch-22. Since Moslems state that ONLY the Arabic version of the Koran is valid, I can't quote your book and have my interpretations considered to be valid. I'm not going to learn a whole new language just to study a single book, no matter how big the cult following is.

Besides. Not everything in Islam goes back to the Quran. Some of it can be gleaned from the CIA world factbook, or just observing the behavior of people in Egypt, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. I judge a religion by the actions of its followers, not the writings in their books. Accountability must return to the individual. That's another western concept Moslims are slow to embrace. You can't commit an atrocity and claim that 'Allah willed it.' We believe in free will.




anyways

The term "Islamic countries" is quite mixing and very broad which countries are you referring to ? Morocco ? Saudi ? Malaysia ? Jordan ? Indonesia ?
These are all Islamic countries , and laws differ greatly from on country to the other



Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. I can generalize enough. Sure, maybe only 4 out of those 5 have full-on stonings, but Indonesia's only recently been invaded, give it time.




also , is the topic Islamic ruling ? or Islamic countries ?
being influenced by many years of occupation by mainly western countries most countries aren't applying Islamic teachings nor ruling , bur rather a semi version of the constitution forced years ago by the occupying force.



Guess what, they're not ruled by westerners any more. All the nations in the middle east are ruled by middle-easterners. Granted, some leaders have been westernized (like Saudi Arabia), and some popluations are more secular than others (Iran), but for the most part these countries govern themselves. You can blame the west for making the boundaries, but that's where the influence ends. Whatever constitutions they have, their systems surely enforce the laws they like, and ignore the ones that don't suit them, or are outdated.




Islamic scholars throughout the years have challenged almost every aspect of Islam , questioning and studying.

as for freedom of speech
Islam guarantees each individual the right and freedom to express their views , provided that is being done' with respect and with proof.
There's no limit to the power of the one you're speaking against
a hadith ( saying ) by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says in part of it that best of the martyrs is that who says a word of truthfulness in front of a unjust ruler , and get killed for it

thus , encouraging freedom of speech for the right, against any kind of authority or power

In the same time as stated , this should be done with respect and proof , not plain accusations

for instance , if I accuse a man/woman of committing adultery , stealing , or many kinds of sins
I have to give witnesses stating what I say is true , otherwise it's me who gets punished.

This is done to protect the privacy , dignity and reputation of innocent people.



You convieniantly omit that free speech is limited in a very serious way. Speaking against Islam gets you killed. If that's freedom, what is slavery?



This being one of the most propagated misconceptions about Islam

Islam gives women a great deal of rights and equality to the man , it needs more than this post to state fully.
so I will only state some simple facts

1- Women rights BEFORE Islam was almost non-existent whether it was in europe , persia or arab lands.

2- Islam doesn't accuse women ( eve ) of the original sin , but rather considers adam and eve equally responsible , thus not blaming women nor considering them a lower race because of that.

3- The majority of converts to Islam in that past years are women , and their reason for that IS women's rights in Islam is far superior to it in other religions ( christianity/judasim )

4- In Islam , women have a separate ownership of property than father/husband/brother ....etc. meaning the woman have control over what she owns.

5- There has been women in the position of ministers, scholars , reciters , rulers all throughout Islamic history

6- Hundreds of years ago , Shagarit El Durr , was the ruling queen of Egypt ( the actual ruler , not a mere queen position )

7- Right NOW , in year 2003 , a woman is the president of the largest Islamic country ( Indonesia ) and another is the president of one of the largest ( Bangladesh )

8- In Islam women have the right of choice for marriage and divorce

9- In Islam , the mother is the most respectful figure in a muslim's life ( 3 times more than the father )

there's a hadith ( saying ) by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
that says " Paradise lies beneath the feet of mothers

another hadith says

"The best of you are the kindest to their wives and I am your best to mine"


The list can grow very long , for further readings I suggest

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm
( click on Islam on top , then you'll have a women section )


Women in Islam
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/

The status of Muslim women versus women in Judaism and Christianity
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womeninjud_chr.html



Those passages mean nothing. Don't you understand? Fancy words only have meaning if they are adhered to. I have seen women treated like chattel, made to be completely silent in their homes, given no legal recourse if abused, rejected schooling and education, made to feel shame about who they are, and cover themselves so as not to be seen. When you explain these practices, then I will concede that point to you.




That's a wrong statement , muslim men are not allowed to have 5 wives



And how many wives did the prophet Muhammed have again?

A lot of countries allow men to follow suit. Or were you unaware of this?



Again a mix of wrong information , along side with a point view

Free markets and free trade is greatly encouraged by Islam

In fact , to the contrary to what some orientalists like to portray , Islam was spread mostly through trade with other nations



And the violence is just a hobby then?



Places like Indonesia ( the largest Islamic country in the world population wise ) , china , malaysia ..etc. was introduced to Islam through free trade and free markets.


And is that how Islam is advancing now? Or are they mainly burning down nightclubs? Perhaps by trade you mean the drug and arms trade. Certainly, I can see how those apply to the situation.



as for interest
you assume that a banking system based on interest is the ideal system


Have you a better one?


Islam has it's own economical and baking system that's superior to that presented in most western countries , which guarantees both parties rights and profits.

just because it doesn't work the way you want it to , doesn't make it wrong.

Certainly, that system works fine. If you're trying to hammer in a nail, you can use the blunt end of a screwdriver or a blunt rock and do the job in a poor manner. Or, you could use a hammer, and do it even better. Certainly, if people in Saudi Arabia want to use rocks to do their banking, that's their perrogative. But don't try to fool yourself into thinking that a non-interest system is better than an interest-based system. There must be incentive to invest. If there is nothing to gain, there is no reason to invest. And if there is no reason to invest, there can be no economic growth. And Growth is the key to a healthy economy.

Your staunch denial of my points vexes me. Are you truly turning a blind eye to the evil side of your religion, or do you simply do not view it as evil?

- Illuminatus!

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Rahul


But what will be the product of a western Islam?

Its a question that cannot be easily answered.

America's prisons are teeming with new Islamic converts. Not just blacks, either, criminals of every race are embracing your religion.

I don't know what their product will be, but I don't think it will be good.

- Illuminatus!

[Rahul]

I am not a Moslem.

Islam is an alien religion to me.

And I wonder if normal Americans, let alone criminals can actually understand my spiritual-feeling, world-feeling or whatever you might want to understand it as. To me, its not a religion, its simply religion!

[Illuminatus]

I see, are you pagan then, or perhaps an agnostic or spiritualist?

[Rahul]

I am both, agnostic as well as a spiritualist.

[mol]

Originally posted by Rahul

I am not a Moslem.

Islam is an alien religion to me.

And I wonder if normal Americans, let alone criminals can actually understand my spiritual-feeling, world-feeling or whatever you might want to understand it as. To me, its not a religion, its simply religion!

Then how can you discuss the subject?

[Rahul]

Originally posted by mol

Then how can you discuss the subject?


I can start with a very basic statement of a fact:

I am from Bharat(a part of the South Asian subcontinent) and Islam has been trying to establish itself as the creed of the people here for well over 1200 years now. We have had many faces of Islam. And it will not be an overstatement that like in Iran, Islam almost turned into a native faith in Bharat. The influence of thousands of years old Vedanta is evident in the Sufi poetry and discourses of Bulley Shah, Rumi of Fars, Baba Fareed, Syed Waris Shah, Guru Nanak and many others.

Nanak's life story shows the Arabesque bigotry of the 'devout' muslims of the entire world. It only shows how an ideology, a creed has managed to stunt the natural flowering spirituality of every nation on teh face of this planet earth. The Arab cannot appreciate snow-clad mountains and rivers flowing with abundant waters and forests with lush and verdant splendours, habitats where beasts and humans live in harmony. Its beyond the imagination of Arab, and he will never want his holy one's word to get corrupted and tainted by the perfidy which such a state is capable of, but inevitably it happens to the chagrin of the Arab.

But Arabian influence has managed to repress the natural expression of Bharat's culture. No longer do we have that same respect for nature, for we have to fight a second nature created by the creed from an alien land. For those who think that Islam has had a peaceful history in its propagation, its simply a hokum theory. My land happens to be the best example, it has been vilified and derided for not accepting Allah/Elohe as the only true 'god', and its prophet as the true men of god. Iranians speak of their supreme as Khoda, but then Khoda is multiple instead of a single male as Arabs and Mohammed believe in it.

Genocides of infidels in Punjab resulted in rebellions by Jats and finally a new faith Sikhism was born with ancient cultural overtones. Sikhism is great in that it is distinct from ISlam yet it is considered as a borrowed religion. Again, its not a religion, its religion, to the people of Punjab and it still revers sufi and vedic rishis alike. The worst borrowing which it made from Islam was the middle eastern theodicy ideal. And that is responsible for its recent decadence too.

Therefore in every way Islam has somehow brought destruction and death to home-grown traditions, while the Arabs took just about everything which they exported to the Europeans-Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Philosophy, from Fars and Bharat.
No wonder that Europeans see in their creedal cousins, the arabs, every genius, and Fars(Iran) and Bharat have no history whatsoever.

Its ridiculous that we do politicking or even a critique of the Arab, it did what it saw convenient, like the jews and the Babylonians.

I appreciate Sufi philosophy since I know very well that it is a product of our own culture and we can not be misled by it, for our very "religion" tells us that we cannot be misled by our forefathers, those who first thought for us, those who framed first words and thoughts for us, to whom we trace the ancestry of our intellect.

That is my religion. Arab Colonialism is Islam, not a faith of principles and virtues. A fabled Idea is Islam, not what is written in the book.

It takes an Allah to make a muslim speak the truth, which he/she would usually not speak of.

Universal brotherhood is the contention argued for creating an ummah, not a genuine basis for the greater humanity.

At best Islam confounds native ways of being of humans, all over the world.

All of this said, there is absolutely no reason to preach a hatred of Moslems. Let it remain in its own land and grow, likewise for Judaism, Christianity and all other traditions of the world.