My theroy on the SUBSTANCE of a Deity

[Eldrum333]

This is a work in the making but i hope you enjoy...

[Rainx]

However, it is known that paganism has been around long before Christianity appeared in the world.

Of course.. that doesn't prove that the Christian God didn't create the world, it just proves that a lot of people went their own ways and may have learned different stories. Didn't Christianity start arising due to the teachings of Christ?


Magick (save for the simplest of spells) must be performed in a designated protected spot, commonly called a Circle.

Uh a lot of people perform magic outside of circle. A lot of people don't even cast circles. And many pray inside of circles too.


For the Christians this would be the equivalent of praying in a sacred spot so that Satan could not hear you.

Well, not really. It's not so spirits don't hear us, for most people it's to keep energy in until it should be released, and it's to work the magic in a "pure" space that won't be tainted by disrupting energies.

You might dig up some threads on what people have said here about what magic and prayer are to them. For instance, for me, magic is the art and science of manipulating energy to create change in accordance with Will. Prayer is one kind of magic that involves asking some form of the Divine for help, in my opinion.

There's as many opinions on that out there as people of course. It might be interesting for you to see what others say.

[Erincelt]

While its true that not everyone works within a magic Circle as most modern Pagans know it, some of them do use a "space" of another kind. Look -- for example -- at the Hermetic Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, or the LBR of the Hexagram, either one, and tell me they aren't circle-casting? Or look at the practice of spreading salt and/or flour around working space. Or smudging. Or any number of other such practices.. Whatever the role of the "space" it seems to appear in almost all practices.

That said, however, I do agree that there are some who don't bother with it at all. :) Or at least not in any observable manner.

[mol]

Originally posted by Rainx

You might dig up some threads on what people have said here about what magic and prayer are to them. For instance, for me, magic is the art and science of manipulating energy to create change in accordance with Will. Prayer is one kind of magic that involves asking some form of the Divine for help, in my opinion.


Its amazing how many different answers there are for 'a circle'. When I first started reading occult material I found that a lot of texts said it was for 'protection' from rogue spirits/demons. And some even said is a 'energy storehouse' used to build up energy by the magician to be channeled elsewhere at some point.

[Rainx]

It's not so spirits don't hear us, for most people it's to keep energy in until it should be released, and it's to work the magic in a "pure" space that won't be tainted by disrupting energies.

Yeah but that's not really different answers. By "keeping disrupting energies out" one can include "rogue spirits/demons". And by "keeping energy in until it's released" I would think that's synonymous with "energy storehouse".

But the "Satan can't hear it" thing had me visualizing a little red guy with horns just outside circle trying to eavesdrop. :D

[Eldrum333]

getting past the circle the main focus of the writeing was "defining" what the substance of a god is, and what it was trying to state is that a god (whatever the name) is basicly a face of Hope and Faith, ya think?

[Rainx]

Well, I'm still not clear on what you were saying. You might want to cut out the big paragraph about magic then, since magic doesn't require deity, and seems to complicate the issue more then anything. I'm also not sure if you're saying belief is an actual substance, or if a God is just something you believe in.

Do Gods that people don't believe in not exist? Did Gods exist before people believed? What made people believe in the first place? Is God just something you make up in your head and believe in, that doesn't really exist somewhere?

[Eldrum333]

A god that you dont believe in does not exist to you.
Does a god exist somewhere else than your head, well that is the big question, but i have heard, what you visualize become reality in the astreal plane, so maybee all gods imagined by people exist in the astreal plane untill no person anywhere believes in that god. Lets discuss this...

[cydira]

I suspect that you're going to have a little difficulty with people outside of the Wiccan tradition fully understanding what you're voicing here. Also, some of the things that you say in reference to Chrisitanity is in specific reference to a specific sect of Christianity. Unfortunately, you don't identify which sect, which makes it look like that's something being said for the *entire* community of Christianity.

It's dangerous to make broad based statements about any type of religion because they're full of contradictions and conflicts from effectively the start of the discussion. There's only a few blanket statements that can be made about Wicca or any other religion. Christianity is one of those other religions that have at best two or three blanket statements. (ie: The religion is called Christianity. The Bible is a sacred text of this religion. ...) And even this may not be completely correct.

But, those points aside, working from the same context as you are (eclectic wiccan, solitary) I'd have to say you did an excellent job of voicing what's been my suspicion as well. :)

[Sylv]

ok, I'm going to go through the essay in order, talking about the parts that jumped out at me. :D

What is a god? What is Prayer? What is Magick? The questions asked here are questions that most loyal Christians would consider sacrilegious to even ponder.
I completely disagree with this. I have a lot of Christian friends, who consider themselves quite Christian, and I discuss god and prayer with them all the time. And j/c, why did you capitalize prayer and magick, but not god?

Some of the first gods in one example was a god of death and burial, and a fertility goddess. The people wanted to try to explain both life and death.
I don't see how you get from the first sentence to the second: if you learned from research an excerpt from the book would be helpful, and if you deduced it yourself the logic would be great. I second Rainx about your comments on Genesis.

If you are Christian ask your self, why do you believe in God? Your parents or preacher taught and taught you that God was the only god. Then you have faith that God exists.
This is another generalization-once again most of my Christian friends believe in their god because of their personal experience with Him.

Because you have faith in God you will not change what you hope with all your soul is real.
I don't understand this at all-I think it needs clarification.

It says somewhere in the bible that faith moves mountains.
If I were you I'd add exactly where in the Bible it says that, and what the context is.

Faith is the root of a god. A god is the face of something you have faith in.
Why? What is the reasoning behind this? Are you saying that you have faith in some general idea and a god is how you see it? that gods are born of faith? what?

Prayer is (no matter what deity you are praying to) a communication to a deity in that you want to achieve a goal, and hope with all your soul that the deity will answer, that is have faith that the goal will be achieved.
The first part=- don't understand why prayer has to have a goal . . . is just talking to a deity considered prayer for you? Secondly, how is prayer faith that the goal will be achieved? Isn't that faith, not prayer?

Prayer is Hope.
Hope is an emotion, prayer is an action. I don't think the two are the same thing . . . where's your justification?

I'm not going to address the magick part because a) I've talked anough already, and b) I don't practice magick so I can't talk about it. I'll just second the warning about generalizations.

I hope this helps you!

[cydira]

You know, it's really cool that the majority of the responces here have been constructive criticism. It's great that people aren't just jumping up and down, screaming about how offended they are or something else like that.

Yet another reason why MW rocks! :D

[Eldrum333]

ok yall thanks for the constructive critisisim, but just as a minor explanation, it is all strictly opinion, and the generlizations about religions, went ment to sound like that. But i was christian before, so i know a little. I didnt site sources, cause it was all opinion, so the general terms somewhatere in the bible wasent needed in my opinion, you all have been of some help, ill visit from time to time...

[mol]

*bump*

[Raevn]

Newbie here....

I have trouble understanding why your theory has to mention Christianity. It's almost as if your theory cannot stand on it's own; like it's based on what Christians believe, do,think, etc.

I'm not saying that's exactly how it is, but that's just my opinion of your article. :)

[labgoddess]

A god that you dont believe in does not exist to you.

This statement I do agree with.
I'm not with any religion, per say, as I am struggling with too many things that don't jive with what life has given me to ponder. I dabble and read to become enlightened in many different religious aspects, but am far from being an expert.
However, I do have a sibling that is now a born again Christian. I have no problem with his choice and new found religion. But must ask this: why does he feel it is so terrible that I don't believe in his 'God'? I had understood that the foundation of Christianity was to be accepting and loving of all peoples. So instead of just letting the subject cool and pass, we end up in arguments, mainly me defending my choice not to believe the same as he. How can one be so devoted to their religion, but not follow it's fundamentals?
Anyone care to comment? And if I have misinterpretted Christianity, please feel free to set me straight.
Thanks for all your input :chattin: