Are their "Christian Wicca's" Is this possible? [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

eaglewolf

June 18th, 2001, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Unique
My faith as a Christian is still quite strong too, but I felt most comfortable learning about Wicca.

I often wonder why one feels they must become a Wiccan simply because they feel comfortable learning about Wicca... is it not possible to be Christian and still feel comfortable learning about Wicca, even adopt some of the Wiccan ideals?

Some time ago, in the first (not most recent) Christian/Wiccan thread, I posted my opinion of this issue. You can be Christian, you can be Wiccan, but not Christo-Wiccan... once you hash out the ideals of each religion which do not suit you, combine them into a lifestyle you can live with, and create your own religious ideals, you have created something else. Something no longer Christian, nor Wiccan, nor Christo-Wiccan, but something new.

Religions are not the same as Paths. Religions, including Wicca, are based on disciplined ideals, regardless of what you may have read in one of those books written for financial gain. The "make it up as you go along" attitude taken towards Wicca is ignorant at best. Once you have twisted and manipulated a religion, such as Wicca, it is no longer a religion, or at least not the one it was originally... it becomes something different, however similar it may appear.

People often throw the old "Do what you will" blurb up to argue my take on this issue. Originally, this little line was intended in a different way than now percieved. We will not tell you to abstain from sex, keep your body free of jewelry, turn the television off on holy days, eat only certain kinds of food, etc. etc. etc. It was not a way to say, take this religion and do what you want to do with it, as long as no one gets hurt. Do you wonder why many main stream religions see Wicca as a joke... well, many long time Wiccans see it as a joke, why wouldn't anyone else?

Is there anything wrong with holding ideals from both religions? Absolutely not... Can you devote the type of discipline necessary to consider yourself a Christian/Wiccan? I would have to think not. To do this would undermine the core of both systems... as I said before, if you are both you are neither, in essence, but something else.

~ew

Revelation

June 18th, 2001, 07:24 PM

Religions are not the same as Paths.

Is there anything wrong with holding ideals from both religions? Absolutely not... Can you devote the type of discipline necessary to consider yourself a Christian/Wiccan? I would have to think not. To do this would undermine the core of both systems... as I said before, if you are both you are neither, in essence, but something else.

Succinct, eloquent, and dead on.

Amen.

genae

June 19th, 2001, 12:54 AM

I see there are some definite opinions on this issue. I am WAY to new to make much sense of it all, but I am getting the picture. I do not have enough information on Wicca (there is so much!) to make any comments about that path, but I know that my beliefs in Christianity are my own.

I am Lutheran - Augustinian Synod (which is now defunct), and attending a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. Many of the teachings I believe. Many I do not believe. I do not believe the Bible to be the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. When I say this during discussions, I get everything from eyes rolling back to people passing out (well almost). The Bible is a recounting of stories, both written and told, that were passed down over many many years. In my opinion, it is the moral, meaning if you will, of the story to be listened to, not the actual accounting of daily activities of people thousands of years ago. It is not to be taken literally.

I compared the Bible, once, to Edith Hamilton's Book of Mythology. I thought my Catholic roommate in college was going to beat me! But in essence, the two are the same. Mythology used Gods, Goddesses, etc., to explain the same events and morals as the Bible. They just did it differently. It is in this respect that I feel I can "create my own path" pulling ideas and morals from both avenues. If the moral is the same, does it matter who tells the story?

Spirahl

June 19th, 2001, 01:00 AM

Christianity condemns witches especially, and sees itself as the only true path, condemning all others to hell. I don't see how anything could mix well with Christianity.
It is possible though, to be a pagan/Wiccan and have a great appreciation for Jesus' message of love, But this would be respect only, - accepting Him as your personal Savior is what makes you Xian.
Well, those are my thoughts anyway...

genae

June 19th, 2001, 01:12 AM

I can understand that. I think it is the Christian thinking of "Holier than thou", that upsets me the most. As Christians we are taught to be accepting of others, understanding, etc., yet as a religion Christians are the most judgemental. More wars have been fought over religious freedoms. It is a passionate issue for many. Yet can there not be a happy medium? Must we forsake the belief in Christ to be able to find freedom in nature? Again, I do not know enough about Wicca to speak about such matters, but I can't help but think that there has to be a better option out there for me. I find myself talking to my grandpa who passed away 2 months ago, more often than I pray to the Lord. It is because I feel my grandpa so strongly sometimes. That is not a Christian thing to do, yet it is something that I feel so strong. I keep a St. Florian medal (patron saint of fire fighters) around my neck for protection even though I am not Catholic. Could I not pull strength from a god/goddess just the same, and not be labeled a hypocrite?

Reeny

June 19th, 2001, 05:49 AM

Dear friends,

Any christian priest or minister will tell you that the bases of being a christian is to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, believe in original sin and obey the ten commandments. And secondly, most christians condemn witches and wiccans. So, there is no way anyone can be a christian wiccan and keep her sanity!

Wiccans do not believe in Jesus Christ as a saviour, original sin or the ten commandements which is the bases of Christianity.

Dria El

June 19th, 2001, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by genae
Must we forsake the belief in Christ to be able to find freedom in nature?

That would depend on what your definition of 'belief in Christ'. Alot of Pagans and Wiccans I know believe in Christ. They just don't believe that he is the 'one and only true god'.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to come up with any answers to this question, you're gonna need to sit down and seriously think about what it is you believe EXACTLY. Maybe write them down on a piece of paper. Then start studying and learning about the religions that interest you and see how they compare. But you've got to be very specific about what it is you believe or this won't work.

Just a thought...

genae

June 19th, 2001, 12:25 PM

You are right. I do need to figure out exactly what my beliefs are. All I know is somewhere along the way being a Christian just didn't make as much sense as it did before. I guess I have to research more into Wicca (I haven't really begun much past the Internet), to find out how the holes may be filled in.
What I am wondering, is how Catholics can invoke certain saints for certain prayers, when Wiccans or Pagans invoking other deities is considered "evil". Catholics (I am not one) seem to pray more to the Virgin Mary than to Jesus even. That I never did understand. As a Lutheran we don't mention her much at all. I haven't been to church in months, so I'm not up on this, either. Never was much of a church-goer.

All of these insights are giving me things to think about. I really appreciate it!

Blessings,
Genae

Spirahl

June 19th, 2001, 12:58 PM

There's no rush!:D Actually Catholism did "borrow" a lot from pagan-folk belief- it's just a no-no to admit it. Iv'e peeked in on "born again" chats, (ya,- well I'm curious;) ) and the "born agains" refer to Catholism as THE MARY CULT. Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses discard parts of Christianity because these parts have pagan roots...and as to whether Witnesses can really be labeled Xian is yet another issue...:crazy: It takes time to sort through these messes???

Lilu

June 19th, 2001, 01:07 PM

Yes, most Christians I know who aren't Catholic condemn the Catholic Church for idolism and such stuff. Personally, having been raised Catholic, I LOVED all the saints, angels, etc. The Catholic church is VERY ritualistic. I've heard a lot of people who were Catholic are often drawn to Ceremonial Magick because of this, but I'm not certain. I personally loved all the ritual, it was very magickal for me. Of course, just about EVERY denomination in Christianity seems to condemn the ones that aren't like them, such is life.

Lilu

muse

June 19th, 2001, 09:27 PM

Christianity, at it's core, is the belief in the teachings of Christ. A man who believed in treating all people with respect. The New Testament was not written by Christ, but by his followers. Instead of focasing on all of the differences there are and using a knee-jerk reaction of no it can't be, why don't you look at the similarities between the two. I think the Bible is a good book and has many good points to follow, but it isn't the only religious text out there. God, according to the Bible, is in all things. Wouldn't that include the Goddess??? How about the fact that most Christian seasonal celibrations have corresponding Pagan ones? How about the fact that ritual is in both. Spells, hey, they are there too! Funny they are looking more and more alike. Healers as a main role, hey, they both have that too. Scholars, yes that's there too. Love and respect of your fellow man, well a lot of us Pagans are throwing that out the door in favor of do unto others as they have done unto you, but hey, it was there! It was one of Jesus' main points. The law of the three, wow what do you know, it's there too, the golden rule. Funny, if you can get past the idea that they have to follow the Bible to be Christian part, and hey you do realize Christ didn't follow the Bible, it wasn't written (at least not in the full context that we know today), then I guess yes you can be both. You have the Mother, as in Mary, the Mother of Christ, and for those who say she isn't worshiped, go to Mexico and look at the shrines to her. You have God, the Father. Sure sounds like a pantheon to me.

How about showing some of the traits we claim to espouse, such as an open mind and love of all things, and try to accept that for some of us it is a viable and logical path, and yes even a religous choice.

Spirahl

June 19th, 2001, 10:05 PM

Muse, I agree with everything you wrote about the similarities- (and if you reread my post above I'm sure you will realize that I already stated this...)and part of the reason that pagan witchery is my path is that I do, indeed, have an open mind- paganism encourages such. But the chances of getting a Xian Clergy or devout follower to agree with you is another matter, and this is mainly why Xianity and Wicca are incompatable. Xians discount any other view but Christ being the one and only way. I have great respect for Jesus' view of love and forgiveness, but this is not the same as accepting him as my personal saviour. Pagan belief does not include the concept of "sin" and needing to be "saved" in this manner. Also, one disagreeing with another's point of view does not make them direspectful and/or intolerant.

muse

June 19th, 2001, 10:14 PM

How about a Mormon Relief Society President? After all she was one of the ones that pointed me to my path. They may be few and far between but they are out there.

eaglewolf

June 19th, 2001, 10:46 PM

Well, I am not trying to suggest anyone is wrong. All I am saying is "open minded" or not, some things are just not possible.

Just because I have an open mind, I should believe an elephant can get a man pregnant? Come on, open mindedness, do what you will, love this and respect that, are simply not the answers to some questions... if any at all.

We are free to believe what we want to believe, that is what makes us individuals, that is what makes life interesting.

~ew

Spirahl

June 20th, 2001, 08:04 AM

This Mormon who you say, in part, led you to their path- does she herself say she is "Wiccan"- does she know you as "Wiccan"- or does she simply state that there are similarities between many religions and it's ok to see the Divine in nature, yadda...yadda...yadda...There are many Xian denominations that do not consider the Mormon faith to be Xian, but view them as a cult and on some points I would agree, but to debate this point at this time would likely be counter-productive, and not the main point of this thread anyhow...;)

Spirahl

June 20th, 2001, 01:32 PM

Okay, I'm back Muse because something has been bothering me. I get the sense that you think I am questioning your faith and this offends you? That is not my intent whatsoever.
Perhaps we can't get on the same page here, because there is some confusion surrounding two separate terms: faith : religion. We often use them interchangably when they aren't always the same thing.
Your faith, your personal belief, is one that includes concepts from both Xianity and Wicca. I have nothing at all to say about that. Your relationship with the Divine is personal, individual, unique, and sacred. For everyone, this is on your own terms.
Religion however, is an institution with a generally agreed upon set of beliefs, conduct -doctrine-dogma. The Xian and Wiccan religions have separate beliefs, some of which were discussed, and these are contradictory/incompatable with each other.
It's like trying to play soccer and baseball at the same time.

muse

June 20th, 2001, 02:13 PM

I have spent months lurking at this site and this is not the first time that this subject has come up. Since I attend church from time to time and believe in the tenets there I am still a christian. I also believe that the Goddess is mearly one facet of God and follow the earthbased paths and wiccan rede. So you tell me. My religious choice is to follow both religions so I guess that makes me both!!!! Repeatedly I hear that I can't be both religions why not!!!! I don't believe that the Bible is perfect so does that make me nonchristian???? Following or not following the Bible is not the defining factor in the definition of is someone Christian or not so until you have walked that path why must you assume it's not possible. Or are you saying I'm not Wiccan because I see the Goddess as part of the God? The divine is in all things including the earth so look around and see the possibilities.

genae

June 20th, 2001, 03:35 PM

Muse, I think I am with you on this. Even though I haven't attended church regularly, I still identify with Christian views. My children say prayers at bedtime and at meals, and they will be raised in a Lutheran home. My search right now is my own, and my beliefs will be my own. I am neither hindered nor encouraged by my husband, as he is Lutheran, too, and doesn't quite see the whole picture yet.
I do not believe the Bible to be a literal text. I do believe in an omnipotent and omniscient creator, who exists in all things. I ticked off my high school teachers and Sunday School teachers by my outspoken belief of "Divine Evolution" - a combination of the two conflicitng beliefs of "God created the heavens and earth/Adam and Eve" and the Big Bang/Darwin. Even then I wanted to mix things up a bit.
Do I believe in the Xian "big Three?", yes. Do I think Jesus died for our sins?, yes. Do I believe that following the 10 COmmandments is my one and only way of leading a virtuous life?, no. How Wiccan beliefs can give me what I am looking for, I do not know. I have not gotten that far yet, but I do believe in the power of nature and other positive forces that I can pull strength from.
I am assuming my path will take several curves and turns along the way, and I welcome it. I am here for a journey, not a slam dunk answer.

Blessings,

Genae

Yvonne Belisle

June 20th, 2001, 05:11 PM

Oh Reeny the comment that wiccans don't follow the ten comandments is not accurate. All the ten commandments are is a somewhat strickter version of the rede.

Do you kill? Do you chose not to kill because it's illegal or because you feel it's moraly wrong?

Do you steal? Do you chose not to steal? If you don't steal why not could it be because it hurts others?

Adultery that one is a tad more difficult but if you are in a monogamus relationship do you cheat? If you are in a polyamorous relationship do you follow the rules that you and your partners set or do you ignore them uncaring of who you hurt?

No other Gods before me well if one believes that all Gods are one God I guess that you would still follow that.

Graven images well are you worshiping the image or using it as a focus. The Christians use the cross as a focus to some that would be a graven image so the line there is blurred.

Taking the lords name in vain sounds like a request for calling upon them in respect. There are wiccans out there that will tell you what can happen if you call on the Goddess in a disrespectful manner.

Remember the sabath and keep it holy. Are there not days that you are called upon to worship?

Honor thy Mother and Father. Sounds like a simple matter of respecting those that should have more knowledge .

Bearing false witness. Hey he says don't lie. Doesn't the threefold law cover that?

No coveting ie the grass is not greener on the other side. Funny it fits in there too.

Many cultures believe that you can assume someone elses karmic debt. Isn't that what Jesus was supposed to have done?

As for original sin read the story of Pandora. A lot of wiccans tend to be rather fond of the greek pantheon.

Perhaps your blanket statement needs more research?

Yvonne Belisle

June 20th, 2001, 05:12 PM

We may not call the code we follow the ten commandments but I don't see wiccans running out there to do those things either.

Mairwen

June 20th, 2001, 05:27 PM

People tend to forget or overlook or ignore or don't read the part of the Bible where Jesus says,

"The first of all the commandments is, Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Now, imho, I always took this to mean that Jesus was saying that these were the Commandments that "His chosen flock" were to follow, to take heed of the Old Testament, but that he'd given the New Testament and these New Commandments to follow.

*shrug* Who knows. I could be wrong. But that's the world as I see it.

Yvonne Belisle

June 20th, 2001, 05:31 PM

Well Wiccan principles tend to cover those two commandments as well. Again if you consider all Gods to be parts of one God.

Mairwen

June 20th, 2001, 05:39 PM

Like in the Gwyddoniad, we see Kerridwen as the All-Mother, the Ninefold one. Kerridwen the Great is "made up" of nine Goddesses, but KtG, herself, formed herself from the Boundless Being.

So what you have said, Yvonne, makes perfect sense to me. :D

Lilu

June 20th, 2001, 05:42 PM

I have to agree with Spirahl...

I think you can combine Christianity and Wicca to form a faith, a spirituality, a path of your own.

BUT, there is a very big difference between faith and religion. And the "dogma" if you will (and both religions have it) contradict each other, and I don't see where they would ever combine.

BB
Lilu

Yvonne Belisle

June 20th, 2001, 05:48 PM

I believe that people use the combined name to give others a better picture of what they believe. I do think it is a different path but lacking a better name for it I see nothing wrong with the name it's practitioners have chosen to call it.

sylphanie

June 20th, 2001, 09:17 PM

I disagree when people say that following a religion requires adherence to all of its dogma, etc., especially with the way this statement is being used in this discussion.

First off, I have never met a person who believes in all the dogma of their specific religion. A "religion" is not JUST the institutionalized aspects of the belief, but a general description of a faith. There are a LOT of things that supposedly 'define' the ultimate essence of Christianity - the belief in Jesus as the one true Savior, the belief that Jesus was the only Son of God, the adherence to the Bible. Frankly, I can think of Christian denominations that are considered completely valid that would strongly disagree with these points. Christianity is an entire family of religions. As such, Christianity does not hate witchcraft. It does not speak against witchcraft. It does not say that Adam and Eve were the only two parents of all humanity and they lived some eight thousand years ago. The BIBLE may say that, but Christianity does not. Some belief systems of Christianity might say that, but Christianity does not.

Frankly, I think that the idea that someone has to adhere to all the doctrines of a 'religion' before they can claim that religion for themselves is ridiculous, elitist, and dangerous. Who can define what someone else 'is' religiously? Millions of people's blood has spilled over this question.

Why CAN'T Wicca and Christianity mesh totally? This is not an algebraic equation. Religions don't cancel each other out.

Sylph

eaglewolf

June 20th, 2001, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by sylphanie

Why CAN'T Wicca and Christianity mesh totally?

No one can really say they can't. These are personal opinions of individuals... there are as many people saying it can be done, than there are those saying it can not.

It is all a matter of opinion. I could easily argue, "How CAN they?" but this would go on forever. We each need to make our own decisions... choosing to listen to what anyone else has to say is up to each of us.

I wish you all luck in your quest for the perfect religion, but I am afraid the only perfect religion is the one you find to be perfect for you. Agreeing to disagree is the only way this issue will ever be resolved.

My honest opinion about religion... I think we would all be better of without it.

Seek your own path, my only hope is that you find it.

~ew

sylphanie

June 20th, 2001, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by eaglewolf

No one is saying that they can't. These are personal opinions of individuals... there are as many people saying it can be done, than there are those saying it can not.

It is all a matter of opinion. I could easily argue, "How CAN they?" but this would go on forever. We each need to make our own decisions... choosing to listen to what anyone else has to say is up to each of us.

So the purpose of the irrelevant debate is....? ;-)

Sylph

eaglewolf

June 20th, 2001, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by sylphanie

So the purpose of the irrelevant debate is....? ;-)

Exactly!

~ew

Elaine

June 20th, 2001, 11:18 PM

thank you ew!!!!

MistOfTheSea86

June 21st, 2001, 06:06 AM

I really believe that we will only go in huge circles with this subject. Let us just leave it at this.

THere can be Christian Witches, why? Because being a witch does not mean you are wiccan. In case you all have forgotten there is a big difference with Traditional witches and Wiccas. T.W don't believe in one single diety but can if they choose. And there is Christian mystisysm. AS you all have said. A witch is simply a person who uses nature and believes in it, to help them accomplish a goal. Whether it be through ritual or spell. That is all a witch is. A witch is not nesessarily Pagan either, only the majority are so we end up thinking all of them must be. If they beleive in nature and use it in the name of god in the form of the spell. Then they are Christian Witches. God-Nature. Did, in their religion, God create nature?? Hmm??? Yes he did. So what is wrong with them using nature to help become closer with god.

Christian Wicca- BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG NONONONONONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!! Simply put. Christian-GOD WICCA-GODDESS. CROSS-PENTAGRAM. I fully beleive in eclectisism. BUt in the boundrys of the religions it resembles. I feel that Christian Wicca's only got really confused in what religion they were a part of so decided to change. But couldn't abandon what they beleived in before. SO they kept both. Buit what they must realize is that these religions are almost completely different! They have similarities. But they are small. You can not have everything. If you are met with this dillemma then you have to ask yourself if you are going the right way with either of t hem Pherhaps you need something more. COme on, sometimes things may be hard to transition to, and you can keep your Christian title until you feel confortable with your new path. But then you must give it up. I feel that you still fear hell and think you must not give up your christianity or you will go there. Look at me I am sounding like that guy on The Wiccans Suck site.

I know I am going to get an earload from all this. Bring it on I can take it:) I may have sounded rude, but this topic is really sometimes aggravating.

Lilu

June 21st, 2001, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
I feel that you still fear hell and think you must not give up your christianity or you will go there.

Sometimes I wonder if this isn't the case. While I'm not saying it IS the case with the individuals doing the asking here, I HAVE come across it. In fact, I was accused of the same thing by my husband's grandmother.

Because Jesus is an entity I identity with, she accused me of holding on to him as a way to ensure I "have all my bases covered". It was rather amusing, but I can see her point. The difference with me is that *I* don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour, I don't believe he was the son of God, I don't believe in sin and I don't believe in needing to be saved.

But there are plenty of people I've spoken to about combining Christianity and Wicca, and I find that usually they are just scared. They want to learn about Wicca, and do the magick, the ritual, the Goddess. But they don't want to go to Hell.

I usually point them to the Catholic Church ;)

But like a couple of people here, I think this is a dead issue. Debating this is much like debating abortion in my books, it's pointless, everyone has an opinion, no one is going to change their's (rarely anyway) and everyone considers their opinion the right one, when in reality you should just do what you want to do, what makes you happy, and ignore everyone else. There is only one real path for you, and it's the one you walk.

Lilu

Spirahl

June 21st, 2001, 10:01 AM

I am understanding of those in this predicament, I wrestle with it too. We are all products of our society, like it or not, we can't escape the all-powerful image of JESUS in our society. Despite my personal beliefs, which do include aspects of both Wicca and Xianity(New Testament only), but are neither... ya, HELL (which I believe in only as concept, not literally) can still scare me at times.
Sure Wicca is open to calling God by any name you like- and Jesus as good as any of them. I just don't beleive it's a 2-way street. I have trouble seeing the lot of you making the rounds of your local Xian churches, announcing yourselves as Xian-Wicca, and being accepted. Those few that would be accepting, would be thinking/acting independently of their church/religion (And I applaud them!). More Xians should be Christ-like...
I've come to the conclusion that we are really talking about personal faith since everyone is defining their beliefs on their own terms. Believe what you want, all is valid, it's just not "religion", and I agree with EW that religion is far from necessary. There have always been Pagans/Witches who practise their craft under the GUISE of Xianity, or (insert choice of major/generally accepted religion in your society). An unfortunate necessity at times...
As for me, this issue has been resolved to my satisfaction. Do what you will, it doesn't harm me.
* slams door shut *
I'm of to harvest herbs... Happy Midsummer's Day to everyone!:)

sylphanie

June 21st, 2001, 10:35 AM

Is it common practice on the boards to say the argument is closed, and then insert your opinion one more time under a guise of moderation?

'Cause I'm seeing a whole heckuva lot of that.

Interesting practice.

This board started when one individual said that she was interested in both Christianity and Wicca. This board was not about a hypothetical situation, but an individual who wants to know how others have resolved the issue.

So I guess people decided that she isn't Christian, and she isn't Wiccan, huh?

The beliefs of each religion have been discussed (often in utter ignorance of the belief system of one or both), broad statements have been made detailing how such a belief structure would work in hypothetical situations, and new definitions have been coined for various words to prove points.

I wonder at what point it passed beyond the valid boundaries for a debate and became an argument.

I wonder how POed other posters are getting, and how inflammatory I'm coming across.

Sylph

Mairwen

June 21st, 2001, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Well, I am not trying to suggest anyone is wrong. All I am saying is "open minded" or not, some things are just not possible.
~ew

Just don't be so open minded that your brains fall out. :rolleyes:

eaglewolf

June 21st, 2001, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Mairwen

Just don't be so open minded that your brains fall out. :rolleyes:

Too Late!

;)

~ew

Mairwen

June 21st, 2001, 01:14 PM

*pats ew on the head* It'll be just fine in the morning! :D

bluecat

June 21st, 2001, 04:07 PM

Ya know, I was going to stay out of this one, but I suppose it's just not possible for me to do that, so here goes.

First of all I am going to keep it short and sweet. People and cultures have been practicing two religions simlutaneously for hundreds of years. It's called Syncretism; Anthropologists have been writing about it for years.

Next, I don't deal in exclusions or elitism. A person has to walk whatever path they have chosen or, in some cases, whatever path has been set before them and if walking a dual path is their choice, SO BE IT.

I have been around long enough to know that there is enough B.S. to float a battleship, a whole fleet of the things. People could continue to discuss a subject like this until the cows come home but would find themselves in the same old circle of thought.

This has nothing to do with open mindedness, but has everything to do with how people cope with things and how they choose to lead their own lives. I don't believe it's up to anyone to tell someone how they are supposed to believe or what religion they can or cannot follow, to do that is the same as what we have always railed against and makes us no better than those whom we complain about.

THIS IS MY 2 PENNIES AS ME, MYSELF AND I.

BLUE :cool:

Mariposa De La Luna

June 21st, 2001, 04:29 PM

Bravo! Blue!

MistOfTheSea86

June 21st, 2001, 05:21 PM

I fulfilly believe that integrating things are fine. But when you are integrating religion it is a much different issue. You have to be careful not to condradict yourself when you are doing so. The cultures are so vast out there that it would be impossible to integrate them all. About the Christian Wiccan thing. For some that may work out, I applaude you at your courage for calling yourself so, For others it seems like the biggest oxymoron of all time. You can take in the ethics of one religion and integrate them but not the beliefs unless of course they are very similar. Me I am Wiccan and if I were to take in some of the ten commandments to lead my life, everything would be fine. All all those things are, are guidelines to follow. And I believe that they are beautiful guidelines. If a Christian was to follow parts of the Wiccan Rede and Integrate them into what they believe it is not wrong. These both are just guidelines you can follow. SOme don't follow either of them. It is a much different issue when it comes to god and goddess. If you Worship God then you are accepting that you go to heaven when you die and you believe that there is a satan, well most anyway. Okay I confused myself all ready. If someone could help me clarify this I would be grateful.8O

Reeny

June 25th, 2001, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Oh Reeny the comment that wiccans don't follow the ten comandments is not accurate. All the ten commandments are is a somewhat strickter version of the rede.

Do you kill? Do you chose not to kill because it's illegal or because you feel it's moraly wrong?

Do you steal? Do you chose not to steal? If you don't steal why not could it be because it hurts others?

Adultery that one is a tad more difficult but if you are in a monogamus relationship do you cheat? If you are in a polyamorous relationship do you follow the rules that you and your partners set or do you ignore them uncaring of who you hurt?

No other Gods before me well if one believes that all Gods are one God I guess that you would still follow that.

Graven images well are you worshiping the image or using it as a focus. The Christians use the cross as a focus to some that would be a graven image so the line there is blurred.

Taking the lords name in vain sounds like a request for calling upon them in respect. There are wiccans out there that will tell you what can happen if you call on the Goddess in a disrespectful manner.

Remember the sabath and keep it holy. Are there not days that you are called upon to worship?

Honor thy Mother and Father. Sounds like a simple matter of respecting those that should have more knowledge .

Bearing false witness. Hey he says don't lie. Doesn't the threefold law cover that?

No coveting ie the grass is not greener on the other side. Funny it fits in there too.

Many cultures believe that you can assume someone elses karmic debt. Isn't that what Jesus was supposed to have done?

As for original sin read the story of Pandora. A lot of wiccans tend to be rather fond of the greek pantheon.

Perhaps your blanket statement needs more research?

I joined this site to chat with pagans and not to be preached to about christian concepts and Jesus. As I said before Pagans do not believe in Jesus, original sin or the ten commandments. the wiccan rede is not a commandment it reminds the wiccan to treat others as she wishes to be treated.

MistOfTheSea86

June 25th, 2001, 12:53 PM

I agree with you both on this subject, Yvonne, Reeny. Yvonee you are right that the ten commandments resembles the reed, and you are right about how sometimes people do not do enough research to argue a subject. But there is something I must say. If I have done my research right then Wicca is as old as color television and the Ten Commandments are over 2000 years old. So I do not think that the Ten Commandments were based upon the reed. I really dont know for sure where the rede came from, so I am supposing that it is as old as Wicca. If I am wrong then tell me so I will not continue being misled. Now Reeny this is where I disagree with you. Religion is a vast world of synchritocism (Or something along those lines, right Blue?) My views have changed from reading all this. Let us take a look at Wicca. A religion that worships the Mother Goddess and God. Or Earth. You worship God who created the Earth, you could look at it as being us just worshipping a part of God. Most wont agree with me, but it is an outlook. And no where does it say that Wiccans, Pagans, Druids don't believe in Jesus. In fact I have read that when Jesus did walk the earth, The Druids did see him but they also despised him. For reasons unknown to me. We never say that he did not exist, but we did say that we don't worship him. But hey guess what some do. Some call to him while doing a ritual. And do you know why Christians find us to be evil? It is because the deciples of Jesus said that we were. Jesus walked among Druids, Pagans as their brother. But his desiples did not approve so when Jesus was crucified they passed on his word but also a few of their own. Which banished our religions into the shadows. We actually used to worship together. Something I have read about a three ring circle, and Christians and Druids worshipping together in peace. We have full rights to beleive in Jesus. After all he is the son of God. And you could argue that the Earth is Just the Daughter.

Mairwen

June 25th, 2001, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Reeny
I joined this site to chat with pagans and not to be preached to about christian concepts and Jesus. As I said before Pagans do not believe in Jesus, original sin or the ten commandments. the wiccan rede is not a commandment it reminds the wiccan to treat others as she wishes to be treated.

Yvonne wasn't preaching. She was pointing out the similarity of the Paths as far as these "rules" are concerned. Please don't assume that all Pagans don't "believe" in Jesus Christ, which is what the statement above implies; such blanket statements are what cause disruptions/disagreements.

bluecat

June 25th, 2001, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Reeny

I joined this site to chat with pagans and not to be preached to about christian concepts and Jesus. As I said before Pagans do not believe in Jesus, original sin or the ten commandments. the wiccan rede is not a commandment it reminds the wiccan to treat others as she wishes to be treated.

First of all, let me welcome you to the place.

I don't believe anyone was trying to preach to you in any way, there was simply a compare and contrast.

I personally like to show that we are not closing ourselves to Christians because their beliefs are important to them. While some Christians are very much against us I believe it's important to be tolerant of all folks, if we show intolerance it gives those who would dislike us and our path something bad to say.

Kill 'em with kindness, but defend your beliefs. ;).

Blue :cool:

Mairwen

June 25th, 2001, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
In fact I have read that when Jesus did walk the earth, The Druids did see him but they also despised him. For reasons unknown to me.

Never heard of such a thing. Could you quote a reference please?

Something I have read about a three ring circle, and Christians and Druids worshipping together in peace.

I've heard of Druid organizations who see the Christian God as the Father. Let me look through my things and see if I can quote a reference for you.

MistOfTheSea86

June 25th, 2001, 01:26 PM

It was like a simple paraphrasing that I read so I don't remember an exact quote. Pherhaps if you were to ask Twig or Maggie they could help you. I tried but could not find one. So I am supposing that it could be that they thought it ridicoulous that a mere man could be teh son of god, or that he was teaching people to hate them. I am pretty sure it could be semi-right, but it pretty much probably wrong. This is just what I read. I wish I could give a quote, at least then I would feel more secure with my info.

Sorry again.

Mairwen

June 25th, 2001, 01:46 PM

I read an interesting book while I was in college. It was called Pagan Christs ~ I can't recall the author. But seems the idea of a "son of god" dying for his people used to be a common thing among tribal people across the earth. Something to look into.

Lilu

June 26th, 2001, 03:06 PM

I was surfing around the Yahoo Groups and stumbled across this list that I thought some people here might be interested in. I don't know whether it's any good, but those people who are trying to combine Wicca and Christianity might find it interesting.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goddesschristians

BB
Lilu

lightning fire

July 3rd, 2001, 05:20 AM

I completely agree with reeny.

Rævyn Cigány

July 3rd, 2001, 02:38 PM

I joined this site to chat with pagans and not to be preached to about christian concepts and Jesus. As I said before Pagans do not believe in Jesus, original sin or the ten commandments.

Well, the second two are pretty much right, but the first one I have a hard time swallowing...I am pagan, and I believe in Jesus...I believe that this man existed (see my thread on Jesus Christ Superstar) and wish I could be more like him (but notice I do not exactly revere him, do not use a capital for his names, I just wish I had a heart as pure and as giving as his obviously was). And there are a few pagan orders that very successfully combine paganism and the teachings of Christ. Here's one in particular...I have a feeling I've posted this before, but it warrants another showing...

Ordo Arcanorum Gradalis (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2310/)

Hope that clarifies things a bit...

BB

Rae )0(

D~M

July 4th, 2001, 08:03 AM

In my opinion, i feel that wotever is rite 4 u is rite 4 u!!!:D do wot u feel most comfortable with, its yr life!!!
lol, hi everyone, im new 2 this forum, i normally just stick wiv da just talk....
:sunny:

Ravenhart

July 6th, 2001, 10:56 AM

I think that it is entirely possible to be both Christian and Wiccan. One of my friends is. In fact, many Christian traditions are rooted in old Wiccan traditions.

Danustouch

July 6th, 2001, 01:10 PM

I have met a few Christian Wiccans in the course of networking, and chatting on the internet. Personally...I do not see how the two could NOT conflict. That is simply based on my own knowledge of Christianity, from my own days as a student of the faith (I studied in college, for Youth Ministry, and took many courses in biblical history and interpretation). When I was a Christian, we were taught that there was only ONE god, by which we could be "Saved". As a Wiccan, I now believe in MANY gods..none of whom save me...I save myself. The theologies do seem to clash. Also, Judeo-Christian texts forbid fortune telling, necromancy, sex outside the bonds of marriage, public speaking of women in synagogues and churches, women in leadership roles, etc, etc, etc. These are all things which Pagan religions permit, and encourage (thank goddess). (oh..by the sex thing, i speak of sex-magick, and the Great Rite, which doesn't HAVE to be between a married couple.). However, as much as I see the two clashing, I think that I am noone to judge this matter, and that few of us are. The reason I make this assertion, is because Wicca itself draws from various religious traditions. Even some from the texts of Aleister Crowley, some would assert. Therefore, since the founders of Wicca, and other pagan religions, have chosen to take from other sacred texts what seemed true and valid, and that which "worked" for them....why should a Christian Wiccan not be able to do the same? The truth is ...most of us draw from various religious backgrounds and pantheons in our paths. The key to creating your own spiritual walk, is to see wisdom wherever it is found, and assimilate it into your life. For those whom see wisdom in some of Christianity's writings, practices, and insights...So Be It. Do what thou wilt, but harm none.".

Myst

July 6th, 2001, 01:20 PM

Remember when your mom told you you could be anything you wanted to if you put your mind to it.

She was right you know.

Don't feel the need to live by someone else's classifications. :)

;)

As far as whether they clash - well that's up to your own opinion. There's the bible, but that's probably been misinterpreted, and the Christian God didn't write it himself anyway :). He supposedly said you could have no Gods other then him; but it was a human man who wrote that, not God himself. And besides, maybe what he means is you can't have other Gods other then him because he IS ALL Gods.

I know some Christian Wiccans think of Mary and Jesus as their Goddess and God.

Me telling you Christian Wicca isn't allowed is like if you told me my Green Witchcraft isn't allowed. Isn't that just silly?

Danustouch

July 6th, 2001, 02:26 PM

Just to clarify...I do not consider myself Christian at all. The knowledge I have from the time when i WAS a christian, is still in my brain however :)

I feel that they conflict, only because of what Christian Pastors/Priests would say on the matter. And from what I have experienced within Christianity...they actually DO believe that God wrote the Bible himself, through the HANDS of the priests "Devine Inspiration". Perhaps we are talking of two differen't sects of christianity though. I came from a Nazarene background, not a catholic one. I cannot say for sure, what Preists and catholic theologians believe on the subject, but I can speak with certainty about the Protestant religions.

As for the misinterpretations of the Bible, yes, there are many. However, the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew texts all verify that the "thou shalt have no other gods before me" is a clear interpretation. The whole story, and old Testament support that statement, as being one of the basic and fundamental texts of Jews. This is why there is no graven image within Jewish Synagogue.

As for the verse.."there is no other name under heaven, by which we must be saved". It, again, is an exact interpretation.

I still feel that they conflict, in basic theology. But if a Christian Wiccan decides to blend parts of each religion, and does not worry that they are being unfaithful to either, then I see no damage done. But..that is coming from a Pagan standpoint. Not a Christian one. I am quite sure, that a Christian Pastor, would tell them QUITE another thing. But..this is just my experience. And each of us is only a sum-total of our experiences :)

Rævyn Cigány

July 6th, 2001, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch
if a Christian Wiccan decides to blend parts of each religion, and does not worry that they are being unfaithful to either, then I see no damage done. But..that is coming from a Pagan standpoint. Not a Christian one. I am quite sure, that a Christian Pastor, would tell them QUITE another thing. But..this is just my experience. And each of us is only a sum-total of our experiences :)

And that is the whole point, now, isn't it? As long as you are harming none and going about your daily life as a good person, who cares!!?? Sure, from a Christian point of view, mixing the two faiths is a difficult (even blasphemous) thing to swallow...but from a strictly pagan or even agnostic point of view, who you worship shouldn't matter, as long as you HAVE the faith to worship!! Besides, who are we to say what the Gods want from us in terms of worship? For all we know, paganism, Christianity, Buddism, Islam...they're all wrong!!! For all we know the Gods would rather we stood on our head and whistled showtunes through our teeth to worship them! :eek: BLASPHEMY! LOL! But seriously, it is not up to us to determine the will of the Deities...just to acknowledge that they are there!

Just my opinion of course

With many blessings, whatever path you follow to the Light

Rae )0(

sylphanie

July 6th, 2001, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Danustouch

As for the misinterpretations of the Bible, yes, there are many. However, the Greek, Latin, and Hebrew texts all verify that the "thou shalt have no other gods before me" is a clear interpretation.

However, that doesn't say that there are no other gods, nor preclude their worship. It simply says that Yahweh has to be first among them. Certainly, modern Christianity and Judaism are monotheistic (aside from the arguments on the Trinity, saints, etc....), however there is evidence to suggest that in ancient times Judaism accepted the people's respect/lesser worship of household gods and things like that. We're talking about very old religions...we all know how much, and how quickly, they can change. :) Let alone their numerous modern variants. ^_^

Sylph

Danustouch

July 7th, 2001, 11:19 AM

Yes...I have heard about the ancient Jews being a Polytheistic nation. I have heard the story of Yahweh, (Jehovah?) and Elohim being separate Gods, and I have also heard that their God may have had "Wives". It is certainly an interesting subject. Have you read "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" by Laurence Gardner? It is an interesting read. There is a great deal of evidence to support the theory that the ancient Jews actually had multiple Gods. However, I think that when Moses came around, he tried to Unite the tribes under ONE, God, for the purpose of uniting the people against a common foe. (Egypt)...this is simply my own conjecture. I've been trying to find evidence to support this theory. I'll keep looking.

Thanks for your reply.

FaeryChild

July 7th, 2003, 03:08 AM

Technically the two of them can't really be mixed. To stay faithful to Christianity it is said that one can only worship the "one true God" and in Wicca (in most cases) there are multiple gods/godesses. A Christian can still see nature as sacred and powerful (the even have a saint for it: St. Fransis) and hold it as something to be revered without actually becoming a different religion. Also if one is saying that they are a Christian/Wiccan because they preform spells, they are also inaccurate. There are plenty of people who perform spells and don't hold any religious affiliation. So basically I'm saying one can't really be both although you can be a Christian Witch (There is a difference, people!!) or a Christian Mystic just not a Christian Wiccan.

That was my small rant, have a nice day :D

Rain Gnosis

July 7th, 2003, 10:52 AM

I can't believe you bumped this thread again. :lol:

To be a Kemetic Wiccan do I have to adhere to the idea that there are only Netjer, and no other deities? No. And yet to be Christian Wiccan, for some reason, I'd have to adhere to one law of Christianity involving only believing in one God? And that's not even going by the idea that some see the "one God" of Christianity as all encompassing - a transcendant Divine - which is what you see in ceremonial magic. Or, knowing that the bible has been translated and retranslated, and the word used originally did not mean "God" but instead "Gods" or "Gods/Goddesses".

*shakes head*

mol

July 7th, 2003, 10:57 AM

Ben Trismegistus

July 7th, 2003, 12:01 PM

If someone was going to fuse Christianity and Wicca then I assume that the 'One God' rule would be quickly tossed from the Christian side of the fence. This union may be technically wrong, but if it fits for someone then it cannot be spiritually wrong.

Right -- your description of "technically" wrong vs. "spiritually" wrong makes a lot of sense.

I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want. But is it still technically Christianity?

Rain Gnosis

July 7th, 2003, 12:23 PM

It's not technically one religion at all when you mix two together, imho :)

I'm not technically Kemetic when I call Isis into a Wiccan circle.

mol

July 7th, 2003, 12:34 PM

I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want. But is it still technically Christianity?

I would say no. Hence the coining of the term 'Christian Wiccan'. I think the name stirs up more controversy than the actual practice of this belief system. :)

Ben Trismegistus

July 7th, 2003, 02:35 PM

Very possible. The name itself makes me furrow my eyebrows, which is the same reaction I get everytime I meet a "Jew for Jesus".

AmbivalentMirage

July 9th, 2003, 03:08 AM

Very possible. The name itself makes me furrow my eyebrows, which is the same reaction I get everytime I meet a "Jew for Jesus".
LOL... Ben, are you speaking of we Messianic Jews? ;)

PapaSmurf

July 9th, 2003, 04:30 AM

I am also what you could consider a Christian Wiccan. it is possible because this is how I see the belief.

Praying is just like casting a spell, your asking God to do the deed for you. Just like when most pagans cast a spell, they call the gods for help, so they are not actually doing the spell all by themselves. Mix the two, and there ya have it!

sianand_flidais

July 9th, 2003, 05:47 AM

Have to agree with papasmurf, prayer and spells are incredibally similar if not the same thing... I used to know a guy that referred to himself as a catholic witch, and had many an interesting conversation on this topic.
He was one of the most devout christians I ever met, and he was also one of the strongest practictioners of magic I ever met..

Ben Trismegistus

July 9th, 2003, 11:41 AM

LOL... Ben, are you speaking of we Messianic Jews? ;)

Yessir! I just don't get it -- if you think Jesus is the Messiah, you're Christian, not Jewish. And if you acknowledge the religious customs of Judaism while still believing that Jesus is the Messiah, then you're just a Christian who embraces the Old Testament. Just sayin'. ;)

I am also what you could consider a Christian Wiccan. it is possible because this is how I see the belief.

Praying is just like casting a spell, your asking God to do the deed for you. Just like when most pagans cast a spell, they call the gods for help, so they are not actually doing the spell all by themselves. Mix the two, and there ya have it!

No offense, but in my opinion, being a Wiccan involves more than magic and spells.

Ceallach

July 9th, 2003, 10:27 PM

I've been checking in on this thread for a while and decided to add my 1/2 of a cent. Christian Wiccan... its gotta be like a juxtaposition... Having come out of a christian life not that long ago, I cringe at what i was told about Wicca. I really don't think there is any way to mix the two. My marriage has become quite interesting since my husband is still a christian. We have very lively debates about the differences in our beliefs. Luckily he is very open to any spirituality. Which makes me wonder if a strict christian would turn my hubby away just for being married to a pagan! hehe
Also, he may think I didn't notice, but his latest bathroom reading material is one of my craft books... interesting, eh?

Keep up the lively conversation... I really enjoy reading it.

Bright Blessings!

Raevn

July 10th, 2003, 09:45 AM

I think it's completely possible to be a Christian and a witch, however I don't think it's possible to blend Christianity and Wicca. In my opinion they are different religions with a different set of basic beliefs and structure.

Ofcourse if a person can blend them more power to them :)

Elfa Wylde

July 16th, 2003, 07:32 AM

My dearest friend and cousin is both chrisitan and wiccan...
rather than calling upon gods and goddesses, she calls upon saints....
she seems quite happy with her "combo-religion" as she calls it.
although she's said a few times that if it wasn't for her in-laws, she might dispense with the christianity side of it... *shrug*
I figure if it works for you... you're happy with it... go for it!
No one walks your path but you. :adidas:

Gently Gazing Eyes

July 18th, 2003, 09:53 AM

I personally don't think that being Christian and Wiccan at the same time is possible. I have nothing against someone who wants to believe in the christian morals and still be Wiccan, or vice versa, but I would indeed be a bit offended if someone was prancing around on Easter, claiming to be a Wiccan while wholeheartedly believing in the mythology of Christianity.

The problem is that the two religions have major flaws in eachother and contradict eachother, so you cannot be both at once; Wicca has no Hell and Christianity does, Wicca has no medium through which to approach the supreme, whereas Christianity has Jesus, Wicca has no concept of original sin, etc.

But hey, if you want to adopt Wiccan teachings and combine them with your Christian beliefs, or even mix the two religions and come up with your own unique path, good for you. Just don't call yourself a Wiccan, if you also call yourself something that's decidedly and unquestionably NOT wiccan. I'm sure Christians would get pretty upset too, if you were dancing 'round the Beltane fires worshiping a Horned God, and then came into Sunday mass claiming to be a Christian.

There's quite a big difference between being Wiccan, and being Wiccan-influenced.

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 12:20 PM

but I would indeed be a bit offended if someone was prancing around on Easter, claiming to be a Wiccan while wholeheartedly believing in the mythology of Christianity.

Uh, that's interesting, because I'd say most Pagans celebrate Easter and other Christian holidays with their family (including me). Why would that be offensive?

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 12:26 PM

Uh, that's interesting, because I'd say most Pagans celebrate Easter and other Christian holidays with their family (including me). Why would that be offensive?

I would wager that most Pagans who celebrate Easter don't celebrate it as "the death and resurrection of the Son of the One True God", which is what I believe is what PaganInkubus as referring to by "the mythology of Christianity".

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 12:27 PM

The problem is that the two religions have major flaws in eachother and contradict eachother, so you cannot be both at once; Wicca has no Hell and Christianity does, Wicca has no medium through which to approach the supreme, whereas Christianity has Jesus, Wicca has no concept of original sin, etc.

Kemeticism and Wicca contradict eachother. Hellenicism and Wicca contradict eachother. And yet, people work Wiccan beliefs in with Kemetic or Hellenic beliefs and no one makes a stink, or even says they're not Wiccan. And yet if you bring up JCI religions, someone throws a hissy. Why do you suppose that is?

Wicca has reincarnation, the Kemetic idea of reincarnation involves a judgment of one's soul and if the judgment's fair part of the soul continuing to exist on this plain. Wicca has a God and Goddess, Kemeticism doesn't even have the concept of complementary deities. Wicca's got mother earth, or mother in the moon, and father in the sun, Kemeticism has a God of earth, several Gods of the sun and moon. I could go on.

Yes, it's reasonable that if you're Wiccan Christians don't want you calling yourself Christian - simply because there are certain beliefs required for Christianity that don't fit Wicca. If you turn it around, however, Wicca has core requirements around which you can use many different beliefs. No one has yet convinced me at all that using some Christian beliefs somehow negates Wiccan core requirements. Obviously if you're Christian Wiccan you throw the idea of hell out, you throw the idea of sin out, etc. And by the way, Christians approach God without Jesus - it's called prayer.

This only irritates me because "oh no you can't!" is obviously such a knee-jerk reaction, evidenced by the fact that no one does this about mixings of Wicca with other cultures... just like someone jumps up and down and says Wiccans don't believe in Satan, or whether you believe in karma or not it'll effect you.

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 12:28 PM

I don't see why not Ben, I have no problem believing Jesus existed and was resurrected at all.

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 12:39 PM

I don't see why not Ben, I have no problem believing Jesus existed and was resurrected at all.

As you've reminded me before, you're not Wiccan. ;)

But regardless, do you believe that the Christian God is the One True God, and that the only way to eternal salvation is through Jesus Christ?

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 12:47 PM

Kemeticism and Wicca contradict eachother. Hellenicism and Wicca contradict eachother. And yet, people work Wiccan beliefs in with Kemetic or Hellenic beliefs and no one makes a stink, or even says they're not Wiccan. And yet if you bring up JCI religions, someone throws a hissy. Why do you suppose that is?

Well, people combine Wiccan beliefs with the Greek and Egyptian pantheons. I would imagine that if people tried to combine strict Kemeticism beliefs with Wiccan beliefs (say, someone calling themself a Kemetic who preached that all Netjer were really aspects of one Netjer), both the Wiccans and the Kemetics would throw a hissy.

I wouldn't have a problem if a Wiccan wanted to believe that Jesus was an aspect of The God -- he would just be incorporating the Christian pantheon into his belief system. But being "a Christian" is different than that.

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 12:57 PM

As you've reminded me before, you're not Wiccan.

Sure I am. Somedays :)

But regardless, do you believe that the Christian God is the One True God

Yep. Knowing what I do about Gnosticism and early Christianity before it became Paulism and before the Bible was translated and retranslated by a church and royalty that wanted to use it to exert power? Abso-tute-il-lutely I believe that's possible.

and that the only way to eternal salvation is through Jesus Christ?

Nope, but I don't have to believe salvation is necessarily through Jesus to believe Jesus existed and was resurrected. The latter being what Easter is about.

And even if I didn't believe that, I believe all beliefs are as true as any other beliefs, therefore if someone believes that who am I to say they're wrong?

(say, someone calling themself a Kemetic who preached that all Netjer were really aspects of one Netjer)

Whoa, first, there are Kemetics who say that. Just so ya know ;)

both the Wiccans and the Kemetics would throw a hissy

Nope. Only if said person who combined Wiccan and Kemetic beliefs called themself Kemetic. Just like someone would throw a hissy of a person who put together Christian and Wiccan beliefs called themself Christian.

But being "a Christian" is different than that.

No one's talking about being a Christian. We're talking about combining Christian beliefs with Wiccan beliefs, choosing those that fit together to make a valid and beautiful personal spiritual system. Just like I can happily be a Kemetic Wiccan if I want to :)

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 01:02 PM

But regardless, do you believe that the Christian God is the One True God

This always makes me smile - what do you think ceremonial magic is about? (not you specifically, just in general, not trying to pick on you) You know, ceremonial magic, that stuff that draws on pre Christian Gnosticism, Hermeticism, etc. and provided some inspiration for Wicca in the first place? Where the God we know from "Christian" belief is worked with as the Ultimate Divine? Just like the "All" transcendent Divine that many Wiccans believe the God and Goddess emanate from, or that many deities are faces of? It's not really much of a stretch at all :)

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 01:03 PM

And even if I didn't believe that, I believe all beliefs are as true as any other beliefs, therefore if someone believes that who am I to say they're wrong?

Even if those beliefs contradict one another?

Nope. Only if said person who combined Wiccan and Kemetic beliefs called themself Kemetic. Just like someone would throw a hissy of a person who put together Christian and Wiccan beliefs called themself Christian.

Isn't that what we're talking about?

No one's talking about being a Christian. We're talking about combining Christian beliefs with Wiccan beliefs, choosing those that fit together to make a valid and beautiful personal spiritual system. Just like I can happily be a Kemetic Wiccan if I want to :)

Um, perhaps I'm confused here. The title of the thread is "Are there 'Christian Wiccans'". In mind, this is not just "combining Christian beliefs with Wiccan beliefs", but going so far as to call one's self both Christian AND Wiccan. I believe that the former is completely possible, the latter impossible.

So perhaps we're arguing two different things.

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 01:07 PM

Even if those beliefs contradict one another?

Absolutely.

Isn't that what we're talking about?

If I call myself Kemetic Wiccan, you know I'm not entirely Kemetic, and not just Wiccan, I'm combining both. Same with Christian Wiccan. Maybe it'd make more sense to people as Christian/Wiccan, but then I've never seen a Kemetic/Wiccan or a Hellenic/Wiccan etc.

For some reason, people don't complain about that when you mix other religions with Wicca, but not JCI religions... not sure why.

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 01:08 PM

This always makes me smile - what do you think ceremonial magic is about? (not you specifically, just in general, not trying to pick on you) You know, ceremonial magic, that stuff that draws on pre Christian Gnosticism, Hermeticism, etc. and provided some inspiration for Wicca in the first place? Where the God we know from "Christian" belief is worked with as the Ultimate Divine? Just like the "All" transcendent Divine that many Wiccans believe the God and Goddess emanate from, or that many deities are faces of? It's not really much of a stretch at all :)

Well, for one thing, I'm speaking in terms of this particular thread -- whether one can be both a Christian and a Wiccan. I don't think there's any denying that one can easily be a Christian Witch or a Christian Ceremonial Magician (most of the early CMs were Christian).

Plus, despite the original intentions of pre-Pauline Christianity, "official" modern Christianity believes that its God is the only God there is. There may be a subset of "new age" Christians who believe that God is an Ultimate Divine Force who has been represented through history as a plethora of other gods, but I believe these people are in the minority, and that their beliefs are not sanctioned by the Church.

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 01:15 PM

If I call myself Kemetic Wiccan, you know I'm not entirely Kemetic, and not just Wiccan, I'm combining both. Same with Christian Wiccan. Maybe it'd make more sense to people as Christian/Wiccan, but then I've never seen a Kemetic/Wiccan or a Hellenic/Wiccan etc.

Well, I guess that's your business. I don't know enough about either Kemeticism or Hellenism to present a good argument.

For some reason, people don't complain about that when you mix other religions with Wicca, but not JCI religions... not sure why.

I think that's because the JCI religions are most strictly dogmatic. The other Pagan religions (and Eastern religions as well) are less set in stone, and therefore their beliefs are easier to adapt.

For instance, I simply don't see how someone can believe in "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" while at the same time believing that there is a God and Goddess who are equals.

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 01:16 PM

Plus, despite the original intentions of pre-Pauline Christianity, "official" modern Christianity believes that its God is the only God there is.

"Official" modern Christianity should be called Paulianity.

And I'm not concerned with what the church sanctions. They wouldn't sanction Wicca in the first place, so what's it matter whether they sanction how you view Christian beliefs in a Wiccan framework?

There may be a subset of "new age"

No, they aren't new age, that's the point Ben. That idea, and Gnosticism, has existed for a long time before Wicca. It's in that book you just got yesterday btw :)

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 01:22 PM

Well, I guess that's your business. I don't know enough about either Kemeticism or Hellenism to present a good argument.

Maybe that's why people respond when I say "Christian Wiccan" and not "Kemetic Wiccan" - because most people have been exposed to Christianity and not Kemeticism. Rest assured, Kemeticism is contradictory to Wicca.

If you go to a Kemetic community, say you're Kemetic, and then mention your Wiccan rituals, you can expect to be told off in 42 different ways.

"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" while at the same time believing that there is a God and Goddess who are equals.

First, you could consider that much of the Bible has been interpreted and reinterpreted, and a serious study of it in it's original forms would probably convey a different point in the first place (not being a Biblical scholar myself, I've no doubt of that, and yet I haven't studied the Bible and therefore I don't have that on hand at the moment - I'd simply ask my friend Koi who *is* a scholar).

Second, you could assume that God is a transcendent Divine energy expressed in immanent deities are faces, etc. (which is, IIRC, what Gnosticism and Hermeticism did), therefore you can't have another God (all Gods are that God).

Third, you could just throw that particular tenet out if it doesn't make sense to you.

Ben Trismegistus

July 18th, 2003, 03:15 PM

Well, Rain my dear, it seems that (shock of all shocks) we have locked ourselves into yet another semantic argument. ;)

Either of us could be right, depending on how you define the words "Christian" and "Wiccan".

So let's just drop it and have some cake.

Rain Gnosis

July 18th, 2003, 03:26 PM

smoochiebootches

(I'm too lazy to go to advanced reply and find that smiley)

Gently Gazing Eyes

July 19th, 2003, 08:00 AM

It's amazing how a single post of mine could generate a page and a half of posts arguing the finer points of what I may or may not have meant. I suppose life really is like a spider's web, and my English teacher in middle school wasn't wrong about everything she said.

Rain Gnosis

July 19th, 2003, 12:32 PM

Actually the next page and a half was Ben and I discussing our opinions, there were about 2 posts as to what your Easter comment meant, and then we went off on our merry way as we do:)

Arienadean

July 19th, 2003, 04:02 PM

So much information on Wicca! I decided to be a solitary and to take in as much knowledge "myself" to form my own unique self. I have come across many Wicca's that state they are "Christian Wicca's". Is this possible? My faith as a Christian is still quite strong too, but I felt most comfortable learning about Wicca.

Yes I've known some christian wicca's. Wiccans typically have the triple goddess(maid, mother and chrone) and the duel god(holly king and oak king). The christian wiccans I knew had the triple as father, son and holy ghost and the duality as mary and mother. They had an alter, etc and worshiped but just did so with the christian gods. The christian wiccans I knew years ago had a hard time being accepted by christians and other wiccans where they were at times.

Here are some sites on christian wicca:

http://www.christianwicca.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ChristianWicca/
http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Wicca/Traditions/Christian_Wicca/
http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/crys/christian_wicca.html
http://medussa9.tripod.com/TheWhiteLight/id10.html
http://www.witchvox.com/teen/teen_2000/teen_christopagan1.html
http://northernway.org/cpinfo.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2592/
http://www.thewhitemoon.com/mary/links.html

Shy Hawk

August 8th, 2003, 12:56 PM

I guess its possible, anything is. In the end it matters not to me. At the moment I'm doing a decidedly Christian Witch thing, which is different altogether I suppose.
As for this debate goes, I suppose you could do it, but it would leave you at odds with both communities I would think. Not completely, but just talking about Christians gets some Pagans in a tizzy. And likewise.
I am married to a Pentacostal, born again, speaks in tongues, drunk in the spirit, bible thumping sweetie. :smile: And, ya know, it aint that bad.
I can still light a candle and chant and he doesn't even bat an eye. Some people have deep hurts I guess.....
I think I'm babbling...

JeweledNight

August 8th, 2003, 04:36 PM

I've seen this question posed numerous times and all of these reactions are pretty predictable. Now, I am still learning about the Pagan path and Wicca, so I am by no means claiming to be an expert, but since I am still studying, I can freely present the info that I myself have found.

One of the first things I noticed when I started learning about the path is the multiple similarities between Christianity and Paganism regarding how to treat one another and how your actions return to you in one form or another. Now, whether the Christians took these beliefs or not doesn't matter. The point is, they are similar.

I personally believe some of the beliefs presented in Christianity. However, those beliefs are also presented in Paganism but are worded differently. Even the use of altars and candles are spread throughout Christianity. It really is remarkable how two religions that share so many aspects can have such heated history between them.

So, why do I not label myself as a pure Christian? Why am I learning about Paganism and Wicca?

Because of what I DON'T believe:

1. I don't believe that abortion is anyone else's decision to make but the woman who is pregnant.
2. I don't believe that pre-marital sex results in damnation, going to hell, etc.
3. I don't believe that you have to live life through Christ's footsteps to lead a good life and afterlife.
4. I don't believe that I am a prophet and am responsible for "spreading the word" to make others convert.

And, most of all...

5. I believe that what you do as an individual holds the weight regarding what happens to you, not who/what you believe in as a god/goddess/etc. This would mean that a lot of beautiful people that were raised in countries where no one knows who Christ was are doomed, not to mention all of the pagans, etc. who lived before Christ.

Now I've just crunched five very vital parts of the Christian religion, so I can safely say that I am not really much of a Christian. I refuse to label myself as such when I wholeheartedly disagree with such beliefs that are the sheer backbone of the Christian faith. However, my beliefs that are shared by both Christianity and Paganism may make me seem like I am a Christian Wiccan, but I refuse to consider myself any one religion unless I believe the WHOLE PACKAGE, which, in the case of Christianity, I do not. With the exception of laws such as the Golden Rule, I don't follow much of it at all.

One of the beautiful things about Paganism is how much freedom it gives you...how it focuses on you developing your own personal relationship with deity/ies (if you choose to believe in them at all). It makes deity out to be more of a force, not an all-ruling supreme being who floats above us and directs us where to go and what to do. You are not penalized or shunned, etc. based on what you believe in, but what you do as a person. If you start putting curses on innocent people, it will backfire, regardless of your choice of deity to believe in. You control your destiny, not an all-ruling god.

So, in my opinion (which everyone is free to disagree with, honestly!), it depends on how deep of a Christian/Pagan/Wiccan, etc. you are. I personally cannot label myself as one particular religion if I disagree with some of it (especially such strong parts of it, as I do with Christianity), regardless of whether or not it's "mixed" with another religion. Because of that, I don't see how anyone can be a 100% Christian Wiccan, because there is one HUGE clash between the two religions regarding deity - one believes that there is one all-ruling god that you must believe in in order to go to heaven, and the other believes that if you choose to believe in a god, it becomes a force in your life, but you ultimately decide what happens to you, regardless of what god/goddess/etc. you choose to worship and believe in.

Basically, you can't believe that you have to live like Jesus and worship God and live like he wants you to to go to heaven and also believe that your actions are what control your destiny, not who/what you believe in. You can't say "Only those of us who believe in Christ and God go to Heaven" and still say "It is our character that determines what happens to us, not what deity we believe in". But this only comes from my "all or nothing" attitude. In my opinion, you should at LEAST believe the biggies of a particular religion before calling yourself a member of that faith, and those are two biggies that just don't mesh.

But, hey, people do it. A lot. I know plenty of people that claim to be Christians that engage in extramarital sex and don't follow other of the little guidelines. But, hey, that's their right. That doesn't mean that they are bad people. There are plenty of good people that love God but have sex before marriage. I don't believe that they are going to any sort of hell because of that. As long as they are good people, they'll be just fine. There is no one rule that governs how everyone must believe, nor is there a rule that says that we can't follow some of the rules but not all of them. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it's their right to believe in whatever they believe in. Freedom of all religions applies to all religions.

Phew! Sorry about the soapbox making an appearance there! I've just become a pro at giving this speech...I get asked this stuff a lot :rolleyes:

Twylyght Fyrestorm

August 8th, 2003, 04:52 PM

Actually there are such things. I happen to be just that. I am wiccan however the god I believe in is jesus christ. Paganism isn't just about any one or more particular gods. Through my rocky path I think I've figured out basically what it means. I had a hard time, of accepting christianity for a long time and eventually, from expierincing with people, this was the right thing for me.
A lot of christians will be automatically against anything like this. I mean back in the day it was a thing to kill witches. So that's what their thinking is like. But personally, it works for me. I've sorted out most of my differences so far.
Wicca is about having faith in your own beliefs. Christianity is about having faith in only "one true god" I don't buy it all, hardly, but you have to go what you feel is right.

Uchirrah

August 8th, 2003, 08:37 PM

As a newbie, I found myself trying to incorporate my christianity into may pagan beliefs. Until I read several books on paganism. I honestly don't see how you can be both pagan and christian. I have learned through years of christianity that any belief other than that of the bible and the "one true god", makes you a sinner and can possibly condemn you. I feel that this is unjust and unfair. We should be able to grow and learn from all experiences and not be limited on what things we can do. But those are my thoughts and opinions, and opinions are like, well lets just say everyone's got one. Blessed be!

:eyebro: :) :fishsmack :lol:

izabeth

August 10th, 2003, 12:12 AM

I found this to be an excellent read for some one who is asking the same exact question..

Embracing Jesus and the Goddess : A Radical Call for Spiritual Sanity
by Carl McColman (ISBN- 1-86204-8495)

This guy deals with the questions we newbies all ask when trying to find our way out of the Christian Door and into the Pagan world.

I thought it was good.

Theres

August 10th, 2003, 03:06 AM

Instead of focasing on all of the differences there are and using a knee-jerk reaction of no it can't be, why don't you look at the similarities between the two.

a dog and a cow both have one head, one tail, and four legs. does that make them interchangeable? are they the same animal in a different skin?
one can be Wiccan and worship Jesus, but that does not make them Christian. likewise, one can be Christian and believe in magick, but that doesn't make them Wiccan.
this fantasy only works if you decide to pick out the compatible traits and totally ignore the incompatible ones.

this idea that everything can be blended into some kind of politically correct soup is not only ridiculous, but undesirable. it does no favor to either belief.

(hmmm... maybe i can be an atheistic Muslem? :rolleyes: )

Rain Gnosis

August 10th, 2003, 10:45 AM

You know, it's rare for me to disagree with you strongly, GMan, but here's one place where we do.

this fantasy only works if you decide to pick out the compatible traits and totally ignore the incompatible ones.

Fantasy? Since when is religion "fantasy"? Or "some kind of politically correct soup"? You say "it works if you pick and choose" and then in the same post make it out to be some worthless joke? I don't think it's fair to imply peoples' religion is worthless.

If you don't want to work Christianity and Wicca together, great, but there's no need to insult people who do. I can work Kemeticism and Wicca together easily by picking the compatible traits and ignoring the incompatible. Is that worthless? Wicca in itself started off as a "soup" of various religions, cultures, and systems. Was Wicca worthless?

If someone tells me they follow some Islamic principles but are atheist and their philosophy is a beautiful, essential part of who they are, I certainly wouldn't tell them they're living a politically correct fantasy.

Gwynna Starr

August 12th, 2003, 10:15 AM

When I first joined MW, I told myself I wasn't going to come out on this board and claim that I was a Christian Wiccan, because I was afraid of the backlash and ensueing arguements in which I would have to defend myself.

That said, I'm really surprised that most of you are open to this idea, or at least are tolerant of it. I think it's great! :smile:

The Christian Wiccan path is not an easy one, because we find ourselves in a predicament of not being accepted by our peers on either side. I know many of these people because I belong to several Yahoo Groups that are either Christian Wiccan or Christian Witch based. And sometimes a combination of both. So I have read many opinions from them.

It's most definately a solitary path...

Some hide from their "Christian" family and friends, because of the backlash they will probably receive. And in the same token, they are afraid to come out in Pagan society and announce their beliefs because they haven't been welcomed with open arms. Like I said before it's not an easy faith/belief system. I think in most part we are confused in the beginning. It's almost as if we are in transition... But I'd say that's a normal part of the journey for us. Kinda like a frog jumping from one Lilly pad to another, in essence Christian Wiccans have both legs straddled between two different Lilly pads. It may look ugly, but it's possible if you believe it can be done.

As for me... I was raised a Catholic, and it's very ritualistic, and in a way magickal, because Catholics do believe (some, not all) that the bread and wine are changed into the actual body and blood of Christ. I however, do not believe that it's literally the body and blood of Christ, but more of a reminder of his sacrifice for us.

Also, Catholics are very much into Saints, Angels, etc... I sometimes haunt Fundie Christian forums, and I have heard many say that Catholics are Pagans. We worship idols, Mary, etc...

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that being Catholic I can be more accepting of Wicca and Magick because I see some similarities, and there is a comfort in things that are familiar.

To be honest I can't really say that I'm REALLY a Christian Wiccan/Witch... I have only been studying it for a year now and have more to learn. In fact I recently started attending a local Wiccan class, in which I hope to gain more wisdom from.

As far as my beliefs go... Well, I don't believe that a person has to believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior to be saved.

And I don't believe that everything in the bible is the absolute word from God. As others have pointed out in this thread, it was mostly written by man, and inspired by the Divine. As RAIN pointed out, there are definately Paulisms in the NT.

I am sure many of my "Christian" family and friends would scorn me for my beliefs, but for many years I have held them true. Maybe I'm a coward for not coming out, but arguing with them would be a pain in the A$$, and I'm not a personality that likes to confront people anyway.

My last thought on this... And I may catch all kinds of "hell" for it, pardon the expression.

I believe that Pagans in general are insulted by the idea by Christians entering their territory, and trying to bend Paganisms into Christian ideals. In a way I don't blame you... because of all the persecution some of you have had to put up with. Many Christians are not very open minded, and they tend to see things Black and White. Either you're "IN" with them, or you're "OUT." There's no in between...

And if some of us so happen to be an 'in between' Christian, they chastize us for being part of the "New Age." God/Goddess help us if some people have decided to open their hearts and minds, and have faith that the Divine will guide us in the right direction, that is the "right direction" for ourselves!!

Oui! Fundies just tick me off!

One of the main reasons I'm attracted to Wicca is its respect and reverance for nature, and that the Divine can be found in all things on this Earth and in the Universe. These beliefs are sorely lacking in Christians Religions these days... And as my Wiccan teacher pointed out we very much live in a Patriarchal society, and there doesn't seem to be a balance between male and female, as it was in Early Paganism. This has also drawn me to Wicca.

I have come to believe that Wicca has enriched my Chrisitanity, making me more of a whole person, and bringing me to a better understanding of my role in the Universe.

Light, Love, and Stars...

Gwynna Starr

Saiya

August 12th, 2003, 11:25 AM

Doesn't the bible say, "Thou shalt not have any other gods before me."? If you believe this, then you cannot be a witch. I don't think that there is any way of combining the two, and, from my own experience, people who say they are Christian witches are usually just curious about paganism, but unwilling to give up their Christian beliefs. This is just my opinion, don't flame me for it, I'm just stating what I believe

izabeth

August 12th, 2003, 11:52 AM

yes you are correct, my DH was in the seminary and he states the same thing about there shall be no other gods before me. Also he told me last night that Jesus is part of the trinity (the father, the son, the holy spirit) complex too. So not sure how some would be able to worship Jesus as one of their deities either in Pagan ritual. So to believe in Jesus you would automatically believe in God (under the Christian foundation that is).

He and I both do not see how you can follow both, but he and I both see the need to "fill in the gaps" of Christianity with something when we don't fully understand something...such as the lack of a female god when everything in nature has a male and a female partner.

Thus, the reason why I hopped the fence over to greener pagan pastures! HAHA!!!

just my 2 cents

MoonRaven

August 12th, 2003, 01:08 PM

I think if you're going to mix Christianity and Wicca, it needs a name of its own, even if it's some hybrid of the two. To me, to claim to be Christian AND Wiccan doesn't work. People have gone on for some time about how Wicca is such a flexible belief system, but really, how much can you flex it before it's not Wicca anymore? I don't see how you can replace God/Goddess with Jesus and still call it Wicca at all.

Seriously, to me, that's like a Muslim saying "Yeah, I worship Ra instead, but I'm still Muslim." I think "Christian Wicca" needs its own name to differentiate it from Christianity and Wicca, because it's neither - it is its own system.

Rain Gnosis

August 12th, 2003, 02:30 PM

Doesn't the bible say, "Thou shalt not have any other gods before me."? If you believe this, then you cannot be a witch

Witchcraft isn't a religion, so one doesn't have anything to do with the other. (in other words, witchcraft is generally accepted to be a magical craft, not a religion, therefore no, whether you're a witch or not needn't have anything to do with Gods).

people who say they are Christian witches are usually just curious about paganism, but unwilling to give up their Christian beliefs.

I'm sorry, but, so what? Does it matter that they don't want to leave Christianity? Would it matter that I don't want to leave Wicca for Kemeticism so I mix them together?

Not trying to pick on you but I've heard that argument before and I find it ludicrous. It's saying "hey I hate Christianity so someone who doesn't want to leave it and study Wicca is obviously wrong".

Ben Gruagach

August 12th, 2003, 02:56 PM

I'd strongly encourage people interested in this topic to do more research. There are lots of books out there that serve as examples of how witchcraft (practiced as a magickal craft or practiced as a religion) have been done in the past within the larger Pagan community.

Here are some suggested places to start.

Christian magick:
"Ancient Christian Magic" edited by Marvin Meyer & Richard Smith.
"The Black Books of Elverum" edited and translated by Mary S. Rustad.
"The Greek Magical Papyri In Translation" edited by Hans Dieter Betz.

Books by ceremonial magicians like Israel Regardie, Dion Fortune, and even Aleister Crowley also illustrate well how Christian myth and ideology can be integrated in a magickal system. They also illustrate how more Pagan myth and ideology can be incorporated, as few of these people worked in a strictly Christian system.

Isaac Bonewits has an excellent and easy-to-read book called "Witchcraft: A Concise Guide" that talks at some length about the different types of witches out there, including those who do call their religion Witchcraft (sorry, Rain), as well as Wiccans, witchcraft-as-a-magickal-craft types, etc.

Books like "The Pickingill Papers" by W.E. Liddell and Michael Howard and "Light from the Shadows: A Mythos of Modern Traditional Witchcraft" by Gwyn are also interesting although the historical accounts in them are rather questionable. They do show, though, that there aren't as clear distinctions between magickal-craft and religious-path, between Witchcraft and Wicca, as we might like. And there isn't necessarily as distinct a line drawn between Christian and Pagan either.

Life is messy. History is messy. The best we can do is try to learn what we can, decide what is important for us individually, and let others decide for themselves.

Crystal_Raye

August 12th, 2003, 03:10 PM

Gwynna Starr

August 12th, 2003, 10:41 PM

I agree Ben. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and giving out that information.

I'm always up to learning more. :-)

Light, Love, and Stars...

Gwynna Starr

Gwynna Starr

August 12th, 2003, 10:48 PM

In my opinion you cannot be a "Christian Wiccan" but you can however be a "Christian Witch". Being a Wiccan means you practice Wicca and Wicca is a seperate religion from Christianity. But being a Witch means you pratice Witchcraft which is not a religion. So you can incorperate magick into Christianity. Or you could find a way to mix both of the religions and create your own happy medium.

I've heard similar thoughts from other Wiccans on the Web. I think it's a valid point... That's why I really don't like the idea of coming out and saying that I'm a Christian Wiccan, because I feel that I'm still in transition, and it's possible I may just end up incorporating a few Wiccan ideals into my beliefs. It doesn't mean that I will end up worshiping more than one God... At this time I enjoy learning about Wicca because it has given me a greater respect for nature and it has shown me that the Divine exists in all things.

And I also like the idea of rituals... Not so much magick, but the idea of taking time out to heal myself, talk to the Divine, and get in touch with the Universe.

Light, Love, and Stars...

Gwynna Starr

Gwynna Starr

August 12th, 2003, 11:11 PM

My post on this thread was not meant to bring up more arguements about Christian Wicca. Or to have some people tell me that my beliefs are impossible to co-exist together.

I was only trying to shed some light on the whole Christian Wiccan issue, because I've had some experience with it. I almost didn't post here for fear of being ridiculed, but it seemed like most people were open to the idea. So I went ahead and posted my thoughts...

Now I regret doing it.

Maybe it's just me, but why aren't some of you more open about this? Think about it... Maybe Christian Wiccans and Christian Witches are a way to bridge the gap between Christianity and Paganism. Maybe they are here for a purpose. Why should they be denied that?

I think the relationship between Christianity and Paganism could use some major healing, and there are people like myself who are open-minded and open-hearted enough to try and bridge that gap.

This isn't an attack on any of you personally, I'm only sharing my thoughts, in hopes that there will be a better understanding of Christian Wiccans.

Light, Love, and Stars...

Gwynna Starr

Darkblade78

August 17th, 2003, 04:33 PM

Hello All!!

What about Gnosticism? I don't know if this will help, but here's a link for those who're interested..

The Gnostic Society Library (http://www.gnostic.org)

Brenners

August 17th, 2003, 06:46 PM

I believe you can be a Christian witch. I grew up with Mexican folk magick, basically it's a blend of Roman Catholicism and witchcraft, ritual with Jesus as I say.

:p

However, Wicca is an entirely different religion on it's own. I personally don't think you should be both Wiccan and Christian, as to whether or not you could sure. You could also wear purple tights with a lime green tank top and red shoes, doesn't mean it'll make sense.

Can you be Pagan and believe in Jesus? Yes, I think you can. I don't think the belief in what Jesus represents (especially in light of Gnosticism) as a sage, interferes with typical Pagan philosophy. Christianity though, well, that's a different ballgame unto itself. You can take Jesus out of Christianity, but you can't take Christianity, you can't take the dogma, and blend it in with Wicca and expect to be following something that truly makes sense.

I think Jesus, from a Gnostic interpretation, can be suitable, otherwise, I disagree.

Devin

August 19th, 2003, 03:29 PM

Here is an article for you to read - http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm

Leslie

Confused

February 11th, 2004, 08:56 PM

izabeth

February 11th, 2004, 09:51 PM

Hi...in response to your post it's great that you are interested in other religions or paths. But to be honest and I am not being rude or ugly, usually most folks interested in a new religion aren't in it for the "coolness" or from what you've seen or heard about in the media (TV and popular Fiction Books). And being part of a religion/path isn't about what your friends are into, but a personal decision as well.

If you are seriously interested I recommend the idiot's guide books on both Paganism so that you can get a quick grasp of the basics of all the different forms. It's an easy read for anyone of any age level.

And yes I think there is a way to blend both Christianity and Pagan worship together. I found a book on a Pagan site (that's written for Christians) that really puts Jesus in the spotlight as more of a Pagan than "Christian"....Of course the blend might not be for everyone but a way to grasp what works for them, but can shed light for those of us who want to know more about other concepts who were brought up in the Christian background. Either way, we are all on the path to our Gods/Goddesses in the end, we've just taken different routes.

Elfa Wylde

February 12th, 2004, 07:32 AM

Hey! I'm Catholic and I'm really interested in witchcraft and so are 2 other of my friends (1 of them is CraftyClover). Anyways, I really don't want to just stop being Catholic, but I think it would be cool to try witchcraft. Can I be both? Or just one? HELP!!!

~Confused

Can you be a Baptist Jew? :foh: Can you be a Mammalian reptile? :wtf: Can you be a brunette blonde?? :geez:
These are two VERY different religions.
Get a book or two, find out more BEFORE you even come CLOSE to 'dabbling' in a religion.
Be aware of what you're getting into. I've never read it, but I've been told many times that "TeenWitch" by silver ravenwolf is a goot starter book. Maybe give that a try. Find out what Wicca REALLY is before you decide.

SteveH

August 16th, 2004, 11:50 PM

Merry Meet to all. I just stumbled onto this forum, and this thread was so compelling I had to put my two cents worth in. I have seen some very enlightened comments here and some not so enlightened.

There are many Christian Wiccans and Christian Witches these days, and if anyone is interested in learning more I will be glad to give you any info you desire as long as you are a sincere seeker, but I will not entertain bigots who tell me my path is not 'sensible' or 'legitimate'. I do not look down on the path of others and I do not tolerate that kind of disrespect either.

Simply put I have some Christian beliefs and some Wiccan beliefs. Now, that is not so hard to understand, is it?

Bright blessings,

Steve
Christian Wicca Ministries (http://www.steveholder.com/jesus.html)

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Holly Ariadna

August 17th, 2004, 06:34 AM

Starpixie

August 17th, 2004, 12:27 PM

I haven't read all the replies, I just wanted to share my beliefs. While I am not a Christian, I do believe that Wicca and Christianity can go together. While I don't believe their God is the only God, I do believe he exsisted. I believe Jesus was his son and was spreading his teachings. There are some very valuable lessons in Christianity. I think that when combined with Wicca, it makes for a beautiful path and smooths out the things I dislike about Christianity.

Gwynna Star

August 22nd, 2004, 08:00 AM

dr_zeus440

August 22nd, 2004, 08:55 AM

theres a huge heap of forums on this in the paths section, and this ones reaaaaalllly old. thats my two cents.

Gorgonqueen

May 9th, 2005, 12:01 PM

So much information on Wicca! I decided to be a solitary and to take in as much knowledge "myself" to form my own unique self. I have come across many Wicca's that state they are "Christian Wicca's". Is this possible? My faith as a Christian is still quite strong too, but I felt most comfortable learning about Wicca.

Yes, this is perfectly possible, my dear. There are christian-wiccans out there, and they tend to see the 'Holy-Spirit' part of the trinity as God-the Mother. Christian-Wiccans generally worship either Mary or Sophia as the Goddess and Queen of Heaven. I personally believe that Christian-Wicca is a very legitimate and loving path and I am often shocked at the disrespect that is shown towards this belief-system. I have visited both christian AND wiccan forums where there have been very strong criticisms and abuse aimed at this group of people, which I consider to be extremely unfair and hypocritical. I'm sure nobody here would disrespect other's beliefs because a lot of wiccans and pagans have had to experience prejudice and criticism aimed at their beliefs, how can we criticise others in that case? If this is their belief and it works for them, who are we to argue? Let others believe what they wish to...................................

Goddess bless xxxxx.

EponaCapaill

May 10th, 2005, 12:48 AM

Ok, now for my 2 cents worth.

I am what I have come to call an Eclectic Catholic with Witchy inclinations. I am not Wiccan. I don't think I ever could be. I still believe in many of the teachings of my FAITH. I do however take great issue with many of the teachings of the CHURCH. I don't agree with the churches teaching on abortion (I don't agree with it myself, but am I so morally superior that I can dictate anothers morality? I don't think so!), homosexuallity, birth control and premarital sex.

So, I have a blended path, but I am not blending religions, I am still Catholic, just an eclectic one. I see value in other religions, I don't believe that there is just one "right" religion. My God is the same God I grew up with, but now I am getting to know him better, differently. And maybe the teachings of the church, which have been taught by humans with their own agendas, aren't all they cracked up to be. How can using birth control condem me to hell? It's a ridiculous notion!

As for the blended part, as an Eclectic, I take the best from other religions, for me spells, are the best way to pray. I have an alter, my Goddess is Mary. She can be seen as a triple goddess. As a child born without sin she was a maiden, she was the mother of Jesus and she was a crone as she watched her son be crucified.

Bright Blessing

EponaCapaill

BTW, I am currently reading a book called the Goddess in the Gospels, just started, so don't expect a coherent explaination. Basically, it was written by a Catholic Scholar who has come to the conclusion that Mary Magdelene was the bride of Jesus and in this capacity was his equal. I find this very interesting since I have always believed that it is very possible that Jesus was married, which is in direct oppostion to the Catholic teaching that Jesus never married and was celebate.

BlackMagicalCat

May 10th, 2005, 12:56 AM

Well,im a christian too,I joined in Jan of this year,I consider myself saved,but I never thought I would be lighting candles,I never heard of candle magic until I came here,I guess im slowly being corrupted,but I cant help it,I feel loved here,I love the Lord and talk to him daily,but im stuck here and cant get up,or out.Now I dont want to leave,Im happy here,and I feel like God is still with me.

Maybe im wrong,but at least im happy and have freinds.The pagans here far outshine what I have seen in any church in respect and compasion and grace and kindness,are they perfect,of course not.
I still believe in salvation through faith in Christ and pray daily that God will be with my beloved pagan friends,and save them.

Rhianane

May 10th, 2005, 10:57 AM

Having been raised in a very fundamental Christian Church, then in my early teens discovering the holy rolling church that actually found joy in being saved, then following my spirit to study different paths, this is a fascinating thread.

I've blogged for the past few years on a large site, and tolerance has always been my thing. I have people who read and interact with me from many different paths, fundamental Christianity to Wiccan, and one thing has always stood out clearly to me. The Christians are very likely to be judgemental of a path other than their own, yet most of the Pagans/Wiccans are tolerant of different paths.

I first ran across a witch who attacked me for my Christian beliefs a few months ago, and I was amazed. Someone in this thread mentioned the mile wide rift between Christianity and those of us who walk a different path - and how the Christians would not be the ones to heal that rift. I agree.

I am now becoming comfortable with what I am - which is a powerful and gifted witch. My grandmother was also very gifted, but she chose not to learn to channel it and instead chose Christianity...and spent much of her life ignoring the power she had. Things just happened, and she had no control of them. Same with my mother. And the same with me - I have had times of fury at someone that was so intense I could feel it singing in my veins...and I've seen things befall the person I was furious with that literally scared the hell out of me. I needed to learn how to control that, to use it in a way that was not going to cause great harm. It's time to stop hiding this light behind a bushel basket (pardon the pun) and finally develop this familial gift into what it was meant to be.

I believe in Jesus, and I believe that his message was true. If seek out the lessons he taught, you'll find them very much in line with this path, particularly if you study from some of the recent books that translate the original Arabaic (spelling? Probably wrong!) translations, and/or the books the Church found unacceptable when they created the Canon. If you read the NT as the Church directs you to, you will be following Paul's interpretation of Jesus - not Jesus. And therein, IMO, lies the problem.

Do I think it's possible to be both? Yes. Is it easy? No. And there is really no guidebook - you listen to the voice within, and it will guide you.

Necrosapien

May 10th, 2005, 11:09 AM

Interesting thought on following who Jesus was and not just what Paul taught us. Do you know of any sources I could look up about this type of thing? I'm interested in the most accurate translations of the books of the Bible (and possibly some stuff that wasn't included today). It'd be nice to learn Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and Aramic (do they have old Bibles in this?) but that's fairly unrealistic for me. It'd be nice, but not likely. I'm interested in what the books of the Bible said before translations and revisions.

<Edit> It's interesting to see someone say that they don't agree with something but they aren't someone to go and dictate what other people decide. That's too true. That's something I'm going to be thinking about for a bit.

The other thing was the May Magdelene thing. I know that I wouldn't have a problem with Jesus being married and/or having children or even having sex for "fun." He was both God and human and as a human, he must have had sexual desires too. I've heard people say that because God became man, he knows every temptation man can go through. Makes me wonder if he wasn't tempted to have premarital sex or relations (no offence intended to those who do, believe me...) And besides, temptation can't be a sin if Jesus was sinless. It says that he went out into the desert and was tempted by Satan. If it was a sin to be tempted, there would be no point in us having a savior.

I am interested in psychic abilities. I don't know if it's one's mind that actually does it or if it's evil as everyone says, my family included. If they think I'm evil, there's not much I can do. It will be my mistake, not theirs. No one is perfect and I don't try to act that way. But I'm getting better so :p Okay, no point to the rest of this...lol...wow </EDIT>