WHAT THE?!?

[eaglewolf]

...

[Edited by eaglewolf on 02-16-2001 at 07:04 PM]

[mol]

They SELL spells?

[Litha]

Magick is not so cut and dried as these people seem to want to portray, but the statement can be true. What they writet could in fact occur, but I'm sure we can all imagine what might actually happen instead.
I know when first starting, I did some spell working that at this time I would likely not do. This realization and understanding came from my own growth, reading, studying by myself and with others and learning.
We must all begin somewhere. Perhaps this statement is worded this way in order to allow those not so certain, to make the attempt to act in order to achieve some goal of theirs. This can be a most positive thing.
Unfortunately I get the feeling that this was not their intention and only written to guide someone into emptying their pockets for a "spell kit" for items which the seeker could probably have gathered inexpensively on their own.

[Kaylara]

What about SRW's teen witch kit... People are always ready to take people's money for something that should be free. Knowledge in the craft is earned, spells are personal, and I agree with Litha that the intention of this website. Seems to me that they are cashing in on the new found commercilization of the craft.

BB,
Kaylara

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Intersting views so far...

...here is another quote.

"Pagans do not do "evil" or "black" magic & spells, as we believe that what we send forth comes back to us three-fold."

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

~ew

Hmmm...I thought that Tenent was specific to Wicca. The Law of Three. I Know it to be an equal return.

[Jazzmine]

I think I am a bit more simplistic in the fact that if you do harm to someone, it will come back to you in some form or another. My basic belief is to treat others as you would like to be treated.

[Shatav]

That's okay, have you seen the rent a ghost site yet?

[mol]

Send a link...I have to see this!

[eaglewolf]

...

[Edited by eaglewolf on 02-16-2001 at 07:05 PM]

[Semele]

For a limited time only....spells to make you rich.
For only three easy installments of $39.99 you not only get the spell how to kit but you also get your very own website to sale your own spells. Complete with candles, incense and all the little voodoo dolls you need.

Yes you too can benefit from this scheme...er I mean spell.

Keep only those you are interested in and return what you don't need...cancel at any time, just remember Karma will find you....

hee hee hee
Semele

[Lynnaea]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Intersting views so far...

...here is another quote.

"Pagans do not do "evil" or "black" magic & spells, as we believe that what we send forth comes back to us three-fold."

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

~ew

I definately agree magic come back so I do not do anything that sends bad karma. But this view does not pertain to all pagans. I have friends, a couple that consider themselves "gray" witches, not alltogether black or white. They do not hesitate to "get even" with a person that has harmed them, stepped on their toes someway, or generally p---ed them off. Funny, this couple has some of the worse luck of anyone I know.

[Jazzmine]

That sounds about right. I have to say the only Witches/Pagans I know are right here on this site. And you guys have been great.

[Mairwen]

a couple that consider themselves "gray" witches,


Sounds like they're not practicing their "grey" magic properly. If they were doing it "right", they wouldn't have such rotten luck.

You do have to remember natural law ~ for every action, there's an equal and opposite re-action. ;)

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


BTW Three Fold is not Wiccan. It is held as a tenet in MANY religious traditions. Some Wiccans may follow this, but it is not "Wiccan Way."

Well, I dont want to send you into a flying rage...but just about every Wiccan I know holds the Law of Three true. You are actually the first Wiccan I have known that has denounced it. I am not just talking about reading this crap in books, either. I am talking of people.

And that is my fault for labeling that practice as Wiccan instead of an individual belief.

[Scarlet Swan]

Originally posted by mol
I am not just talking about reading this crap in books, either. I am talking of people.

You are talking of people who subscribe to the "he said, she said" aspect of a religion. This is the problem, and seems to be the norm. You may not have read it in a book somewhere, but they did.

Think of it this way. The "Three Fold Law" is just another way of scaring people into control. Last time I checked, controlling they way one worships or acts was not a defining point of Wicca. We do believe anything you do will result in repercussion, but those effects are not multiplied by "three" in any way.

Scarlet Swan

[mol]

Originally posted by Scarlet Swan

Think of it this way. The "Three Fold Law" is just another way of scaring people into control. Last time I checked, controlling they way one worships or acts was not a defining point of Wicca. We do believe anything you do will result in repercussion, but those effects are not multiplied by "three" in any way.

Scarlet Swan

Karma. Of course. And I have seen this adequately related to in some Wiccan publications as well as others...and I agree with Control issues. I commented about that in your other post. Every Path is a different way.

[Lady Tana]

Originally posted by mol
just about every Wiccan I know holds the Law of Three true.

I know many Wiccans that dont hold to the Law of Three... its a personal decision.. just like everything else in religion... its up to you I believe...

[Edited by Lady Tana on 02-15-2001 at 07:22 PM]

[Lynnaea]

Originally posted by Mairwen


a couple that consider themselves "gray" witches,


Sounds like they're not practicing their "grey" magic properly. If they were doing it "right", they wouldn't have such rotten luck.

You do have to remember natural law ~ for every action, there's an equal and opposite re-action. ;)

My point exactly. What they send out is definately coming back. <sigh>

[Lynnaea]

Originally posted by eaglewolf

And where did this three fold @#$%^! come from anyway? I have been Wiccan for 22 years and have never believed in a three fold law...

...who the @#$^% has been defining Wicca for the last 10 years anyway? I would like to give them a piece of my WICCAN mind. Everyone associates this, among other crap, to Wicca.

~ew

BTW Three Fold is not Wiccan. It is held as a tenet in MANY religious traditions. Some Wiccans may follow this, but it is not "Wiccan Way." [/B]

When I see someone write "where did this come from?" I can't help researching and finding the answer. Don't mind me, that is just a fetish I have always suffered from. Sooooo, the earliest reference I can find, right now, is in G. Gardner's 1949 version of his BOS. (whether you believe he copied it from an older book or made it all up is not the point, I am just looking for sources of "Wiccan way") I'm sure many of you are familiar with this material.

Written as part of the 1st degree initiation:
"Learn, in Witchcraft, thou must ever return triple. As I scourged thee, so thou must scourge me, but triple. So where you received 3, return 9; where you received 7, return 21; where you received 9, return 27; where you received 21, return 63." Witch scourges Magus as instructed, 120 strokes total.
Magus: "Thou hast obeyed the Law. But mark well, when thou receivest good, so equally art bound to return good threefold."

This is from Gardner's writing that is in the public domain, so I have quoted freely here. It is possible this is where the three fold law came from with just a little stretch. Not all of his teachings were written down but it sounds like the law of three is what he was refering to. I am not of the Gardnerian trad, but since mine and many other (certainly not all) trads were descended from the Gardnerian we can say he was a contributor to "Wiccan way".

However; one thing about our religion, no one is telling you to believe in anything. If you don't want to believe in the rede of three that is your choice. We are all free to use what works for us and leave the rest.

[Scarlet Swan]

Gardner always seems to be the scapegoat :D

We too have read the works of Gerald Gardner, though I must admit, interpreted this teaching much differently than;

"Everything you do, good or bad, will come back to you Three Fold."

We wonder how this respectful ritual practice became the "Three Fold Law" practiced by Wiccans which it has become today.

Yes, we have read the teachings of Gardner. Yes, we feel traditional values are important. No, we do not think the ramblings of one man (or a few of his followers), no matter how significant, can dictate the premise of an entire religion.

The problem is, tradition takes the form of those it is passed to. How much of Gardner's original "plan" is actually his? There is no way to know for sure, and is why something which effects many so profoundly cannot be based on this alone.

Wicca is young, it will change for hundreds of years to come, just as ALL other religions have changed. Perhaps Wiccans do "make it up as they go along," but how many of the other religions were like this long ago? It all has to start somewhere.

Scarlet Swan

[Edited by Scarlet Swan on 02-15-2001 at 10:03 PM]

[Scarlet Swan]

Originally posted by Lynnaea
However; one thing about our religion, no one is telling you to believe in anything. If you don't want to believe in the rede of three that is your choice. We are all free to use what works for us and leave the rest.

As we feel to the bone.

Arguing why all Wiccans are believed to follow this "law" was the fire behind the original post. Where did this start? Who started the whole, "everything you do etc. etc. etc." was the question. Sorry for stepping on any toes :)

Scarlet Swan

[Lynnaea]

Originally posted by Scarlet Swan
Gardner always seems to be the scapegoat :D
snip......
Yes, we have read the teachings of Gardner. Yes, we feel traditional values are important. No, we do not think the ramblings of one man (or a few of his followers), no matter how significant, can dictate the premise of an entire religion.

The problem is, tradition takes the form of those it is passed to. How much of Gardner's original "plan" is actually his? There is no way to know for sure, and is why something which effects many so profoundly cannot be based on this alone.

Wicca is young, it will change for hundreds of years to come, just as ALL other religions have changed. Perhaps Wiccans do "make it up as they go along," but how many of the other religions were like this long ago? It all has to start somewhere.

Scarlet Swan

[Edited by Scarlet Swan on 02-15-2001 at 10:03 PM]

I agree, we do not have a Saint Gardner in Wicca, he was but one man and many others contributed and are contributing to our traditions. He was one of the the first to publish, though, so from a historical respective his work is important. For many (excluding the family trads that are surfacing) Gardner was where it all started. Not getting into the "Key of Solomon" influence in ritual. (hey, I like history)

I agree alot of Wicca is made up as we go along, and it is great we can do that. We all know the best spells come from your own heart, not what we read from a printed page in the numerous "spell" books being published today. When a religion stops having inspired material, when it's clergy says what was written hundreds of years ago was more inspired than what is being composed today, that religion will be decaying.

[sherry]

Originally posted by mol


Hmmm...I thought that Tenent was specific to Wicca. The Law of Three. I Know it to be an equal return.



I agree but just in case I am wrong! I still think before casting! If I won't like it in EQUAL return I surely do NOT want it X3!!!

[cydira]

My mother and my aunts have always taught me that what you do comes back to you three times. We never really got into something like a dramatic expression or anything else like that. But I can see where people say there is alot of influence from Gardner. <scratches her head> Unfortunately, I'm having an awful time finding anything of his writings.

I did however find Buckland's "blue book" and I can't say that I found it too helpful. <shrugs> It was a little too... simplistic. I feel rather bad saying that, but it was too cookbookish for me. There's more to religion then a bunch of basic steps and spoken words, just like a dance is more then music and steps. There's emotion and basic truths that simply can't be spoken of in such a distant manner.

I don't really know where I was going with that thought, but I'm going to leave it in here anyways. I'm off to battle my laundry, but this is an interesting thread. :)