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bananabrain
June 7th, 2001, 09:22 AM
i realise this may be an unpopular thing to say, but i am beginning to find this board really quite intolerant. tolerance involves not suppressing points of view that one disagrees with, even if you find them personally absurd, insulting, revolting, illogical, etc. in terms of religious tolerance, this involves an acceptance that not all points of view are compatible, but that this doesn't mean we have to shoot each other.

real tolerance comes from living side by side and gradual normalisation, leading to acceptance. this is based upon the principle that ignorance leads to fear leads to hate - it is a great deal easier to declare, for example, that "witches are evil", than it is to say to mrs jones next door, whose kids you know, who plays tennis and works at the hospital, that she is evil. turning people into symbols, into the Other, into "THEM", depersonalises them and denies their humanity - which my people know from bitter experience makes it easier to persecute and even kill us - although, sadly, we have not learned that lesson enough to let go of our own need for a "THEM" to blame our own problems upon. on this board, fear of "THEM" is alive and well, whether it's monotheists, republicans, scientists, the patriarchy, europeans or whoever - and the anonymity of the web makes it easier for people to make statements that, IMHO, they would not dare to make in a face-to-face conversation.

the vast majority of you here are, i believe, from the united states. you of all people should be aware that tolerance does NOT come from the suppression of statements that people who are not entirely secure on their religious path may find disturbing or challenging. what sort of religion worth having can't cope with a challenging question? you may be troubled by a given answer to a question, but that does not mean that the question should not be asked - although sometimes a question tells you more about the prejudices of the questioner than anything else.

finally, as a personal example, i would like to say a word about sacred texts. i will speak personally, with respect to the Torah. the central shaping event of all jewish experience was the revelation at mount sinai - the entire religious system is predicated on it. to tell a jewish person that this event did not occur, that our sacred texts are lies and distortions of pre-existing near-eastern myths, is the equivalent of a christian telling me that because i do not accept jesus as my saviour, i will go to hell. from both points of view, this may well be the case. just don't try to tell me that this is a tolerant point of view - because it requires me to give up my central belief. religious tolerance cannot be achieved except by methods based on religious principles, which judaism does allow for, whatever you may assume on my behalf, despite my contradicting you - otherwise what am i doing here? i can tell you that i'm not permitted to seek converts, besides finding it personally offensive to do so. incidentally, many here are interested in kabbalah. without Torah, there *is* no kabbalah.

now, before people weigh in and tell me that *my* belief requires *them* to give up *their* belief in, say, an archaeologically reconstructed mesopotamian deity - without understanding the way my sacred texts function and my religious context, you are in effect telling me what my own tradition says, when i, working from within it, using the language it was written in, am telling you that we are *not talking about you*! the people we're talking about DON'T EXIST ANY MORE, so we're only talking about symbolism for internal purposes. to clarify - you're not a mesopotamian, nor are you ethnically identifiable as such, you don't speak ancient mesopotamian, you don't live in ancient mesopotamia and - most conclusively - you're not behaving in a way the Torah would find sufficiently offensive as to condemn you to death for it - even if jewish law hadn't made it effectively impossible to pass a death sentence 2000 years ago! without an understanding of the fact that this is the basis that i, for one, am working from, not to mention that this is *totally* distinct from christianity, we are at cross-purposes that give gratuitous offence on both sides.

i am trying to work on the basis of mutual respect and equitable treatment, so the tendency to identify 'the bible', 'yahweh' or 'judaeochristianity' as the source of all the evils of the world is just another nail in the coffin of coexistence, because it makes it more difficult for me to work with you all. these are not new arguments and they were as much red herrings before as they are now. i appreciate that there are ignorant people from the 'mainstream' religions out there, but i would like some indication that you on this board are trying to avoid the same old mistakes that every other human belief system has done at some time. you have an opportunity to do something special here - and you're not constrained in the same way as those of us who rely on sacred texts. please, in the Divine Name, consider the direction you are going in before you commit to a course of action that will cause problems for those who come after you, like catholics who wish that the church hadn't committed itself to opposing birth control.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Mariposa De La Luna
June 7th, 2001, 10:28 AM
You go!!!! *APPLAUSE* :D :D :D

I do not think it is an unpopular thing to say and you have every right to say it. I am rather sick of the whole "patriarchy is to blame" argument. I used to be Catholic and my family are all Christians and I have nothing against them. I have nothing against Jews or anyone else. But when I start seeing people ragging on them and patriarchy, that is normally the last time I look into that thread because IMHO its about to go downhill.

I respect your position and any that doesn't put down others.

Revelation
June 7th, 2001, 12:14 PM
I think it is a very unpopular thing to say, and I'm glad you said it. Hurrah.

Fact is, we're not going to like everything everyone else has to say all the time. But rather than cry about it, we can shrug off those opinions and move on, rather than dwelling in this self deprecating "I'm-so-abused" philosophy I've seen so many times in so many pagan circles.

Hurrah for balls. Or something.

Mairwen
June 7th, 2001, 12:18 PM
Tolerance is like love and friendship ~ it's disagreeing and still being able to hold hands ~~> and leaving the past in the past, and looking forward together.

Mairwen
June 7th, 2001, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Revelation
rather than dwelling in this self deprecating "I'm-so-abused" philosophy I've seen so many times in so many pagan circles.


Not just in Pagan circles ~ it's pervasive in our society. We're a society of Victims: I'm an abuse Victim, I'm a discrimination Victim, I'm a Victim of the State, or whatever. I have been a much happier person since I realized ~ duh ~ that I am no longer a victim, but a survivor. (you're only a victim as long as you're still in such a situation, imho)

I am a Survivor!

bluecat
June 7th, 2001, 12:28 PM
I am saddened to read that you believe there is a lot of intolerance on the board. This place is like anywhere else and has many people from varying viewpoints. As I see it, on a personal level, the intolerance happens when someone decides that they are the authority on something and begins to degrade, bash, talk down to, or otherwise treat someone else's belief in a harsh manner. When this occurs the person doing it leaves themselves open for criticism, not of what they do but what they say of others and how they say it. Especially when the person in question sets themnselves up as an authority on the subject and does not seem to respect the views of others.

I am not saying that you do this, I am aware that others do and we have had several threads about people bashing down on others beliefs and making certain blanket statements about things.

As far as the statements about how patriarchal blame they are there but are not the views of the majority. While the person's views are respected, as a member I think they are a bit strident at times and have commented. It is not everyone who feels this way and I do not avoid things because they are strong in thought. I am not saying that if you do avoid them you are bad or wrong, it's just what I choose to do :) in these cases.

These are just my thoughts as me. I hope they are helpful.

Blue

Revelation
June 7th, 2001, 12:34 PM
As I see it, on a personal level, the intolerance happens when someone decides
that they are the authority on something and begins to degrade, bash, talk down to, or otherwise treat someone else's
belief in a harsh manner.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps intolerance happens when one viewpoint directly challenges or opposes another, and the challenged party can't stand up for itself. So instead of saying, "I still hold my belief" they say, "You're bad! I'm telling!"

There is something to be said, after all, for "hardening up".

EasternPriest
June 7th, 2001, 12:36 PM
well met bananabrain.

Kaylara
June 7th, 2001, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by bananabrain
and the anonymity of the web makes it easier for people to make statements that, IMHO, they would not dare to make in a face-to-face conversation.


Anything that I have said on this page, I have probably said many times to personal friends, and those who know me in the real world can testify to this... I have no problem telling people exactly what I think, and if they don't like it, they can have a discussion with me, or ignore me... I don't shove my view of anything down other people's throats. (Even though some of my rants are really funny ;))

I try to give the benefit of the doubt to people, and I don't get offended easily. I am tolerant of all things different from meIHavefriends every race, many different religious backgrounds, every sexual orientation, differing political beliefs etc. I was raised to believe that different doesn't mean bad; that instead of being afraid of something that I don't know about, I should learn about it so that I can see the other view points involved. I'm not saying that I'm perfect and tolerant all of the time, I'm far from it, but I try my hardest to be nice to people, to try to understand their viewpoint, to try not to judge people... I have to say that this site is the *MOST* tolerant on-line community that I have ever had the pleasure of being a part of, and that is why I put so much time and effort into it.

There are people here who I agree with on most things, and people who I don't agree with at all on anything, but I like all of the people in this community... IMHO, this community is more able to talk about sensitive issues than anyother I've seen...


now, before people weigh in and tell me that *my* belief requires *them* to give up *their* belief in, say, an archaeologically reconstructed mesopotamian deity - without understanding the way my sacred texts function and my religious context, you are in effect telling me what my own tradition says, when i, working from within it, using the language it was written in, am telling you that we are *not talking about you*! the people we're talking about DON'T EXIST ANY MORE, so we're only talking about symbolism for internal purposes. to clarify - you're not a mesopotamian, nor are you ethnically identifiable as such, you don't speak ancient mesopotamian, you don't live in ancient mesopotamia...

Personally, I think that in order to get a well rounded picture of any deity, one needs to look at the surviving beliefs about said deity, and also to look to the past influences... I am not saying disregard the surviving worship, or myths, I am saying, "Don't stop there, dig deeper, look harder for anything else that you can find that may be able to put this deity into focus..." Just because I am not an ancient Egyptian doesn't mean that I know nothing about ancient Egyptians... The only way I can learn about these things is by looking for them, researching, finding out every possible explanation, and then coming to my personal conclusion on the matter...

I personally think that Bluecat said it better than I could have, I tend to go off on tangents, but the basic gist is the same...

Sorry if this is confusing,
Kaylara

loopy
June 7th, 2001, 12:49 PM
I've got to agree with bluecat and Kaylara here. I was surprised reading the initial post, and even more surprised to see that people agreed. As someone who is still seeking to learn all that she can, I've found these boards a wonderful resource because of how many knowledgeable people there are, who aren't going to bat you down for asking a question or having different beliefs. And especially compared to other boards, I really think this one's at the top of the list.

Just my two cents.

Lucidia
June 7th, 2001, 01:28 PM
well i wrote a whole bunch of stuff and then my computer crashed.

grrr.

but i'll try and re-write it to an extent.

I suppose, and this isn't me saying that their words and actions are excusable, that a lot of people are angry at mainstream religion because they once were part of it, and something bad happened which caused them to leave it and seek out a more "pagan" path. That's not the case with everyone, but a large amount of people i know that follow pagan beliefs have at one point been part of a mainstream religion. Including myself. And I will admit, i'm VERY bitter at the religion i was part of (i was a jehovah's witness... effectively, i was a cult member), but that doesn't mean that I would say someone is wrong for following the path of that religion, just because i don't agree with it...

Honestly, I've come to a point where i follow no actual religion or specific path. I follow my heart and I make logical rationalizations based on my experiences and my knowledge. IMHO, all religions are correct and true... TO THE PERSONS WHOM FOLLOW AND BELIEVE SUCH RELIGION/PATH. A lot of people don't agree with me and even think this is a foolish way of thinking.. but this is why i feel this way:

We each have energy... even science proved this... so even at the lowest spiritual awareness, one must admit we in fact have some kind of energy force which at least sparked us to life.

Now should you have a religion or faith, you extend your energy outward into the world in a reflection of this belief. Your energy forms what you believe into your own spiritual reality. This is how a wiccan and a catholic belief system can be combined (as some people have pointed out they follow). Now a Catholic might say this isn't possible, because "witchcraft" is forbidden.. and a Wiccan might say this is impossible because of other similar reasons in regaurd to thier faith.. but in fact... the Catholic/Wiccan is indeed correct. To them... THEY are right in following THEIR path...

WE are all right... however... i think we need to stop and remember that since no one is really more right or more wrong or smarter or more knowledgeable or more experienced when it comes to spirituality, since being spiritual is a very personal matter.. that we must accept that if we disrespect others and their beliefs.. that we will bring back negativity on ourselves.

I have a lot more to say.. but for the most part... i somewhat agree with the original post... people are a wee bit negative towards mainstream religions somethings.. and although some of those points they make are valid... there are just as many fake/poser/hippocritical christians and jews and buddists and taoists etc... as there are fake/poser/hippocritical pagans (look at the huge influx of "witches" after movies like the blair witch project and most espeically, the craft).

i may post more later.. but time doesn't permit more right now.

Semele
June 7th, 2001, 02:14 PM
[

Or perhaps intolerance happens when one viewpoint directly challenges or opposes another, and the challenged party can't stand up for itself. So instead of saying, "I still hold my belief" they say, "You're bad! I'm telling!"


We shouldn't have to stand up for ourselves. We should be secure in our own path. I KNOW MY PATH....FOR ME!! Just as you know your path. However that doesn't mean that I may not be interested in yours, know what I mean. I may ask questions of you because I am seeking knowledge....not necessarily looking for points to correct you on. (you being everyone here, not one single person) Many people are defensive when it comes to religion, this is true. I myself have been many times and save for the occassional rant here to you guys, whom I consider my family, I let my defenses down because I am secure in who I am. Even my rant about the whole Govt/marriage thing was mainly to get the views from all of you, which I did get. It was not an issue I was so angered by that I wanted to protest and draw attention to myself.

I think that we are all here to learn about and from each other. Yes there are instances of intolorance, just like every other area in life. But us being angry and pointing that out is another form of intolorance IMHO!! I am learning more from this community than what we see at face value. I have slowly gained perspectives that I was never looking for. Like treating intolorant attitudes with tolorance where permitted. Maybe those who are posting intolorant veiws, maybe myself and you alike, will learn that our intolorance doesn't affect the truly tolorant folks here. And maybe we will begin to want that for ourselves and then the true learning begins!

Temperance.... this is my goal. For me personally. This community is gradually helping me to attain this. I am not so quick to point out that someone has offended me. I am learning to be tolorant and take the good with the bad. I just usually watch the "offensive" post hoping others will pass it by as well, and you know what?? More and more this is starting to happen in our little community. Several potentially offensive posts have been buried by numerous positive posts...some even by the original offender. I guess I am saying that we don't always mean to offend but if someone points it out each time we do, then we also become defensive. There in lies the problem. Noone should have to defend themself here.

Temperance.

Tigerwallah
June 7th, 2001, 02:48 PM
, fear of "THEM" is alive and well, whether it's monotheists, republicans, scientists, the patriarchy, europeans or whoever - and the anonymity of the web makes it easier for people to make statements that, IMHO, they would not dare to make in a face-to-face conversation. originally posted by Bananabrain

Not in my case. I'm not shy about my beliefs. The people here know nothing about me that everyone else in my life doesn't know.
I have no fear of anything or anyone. My goddess gives me the strength to praise her in public and my mind gives me the confidence to do so.

Semele
June 7th, 2001, 02:51 PM
Good for you Tiger!!!!

mol
June 7th, 2001, 03:17 PM
I happen to think everyones viewpoints here stand TRUE...to them. To the individual.

My own sacred text is buried within my heart and soul. And no one can tell me its wrong. Does that mean that anyone elses is wrong? Nope.

It means mine is right for me.

As for intolerance...well, its seems bb has said it all...I will leave you to it.

oskila
June 7th, 2001, 04:28 PM
go bb

widukind
June 7th, 2001, 04:59 PM
Concerning tolerance, I do not wholehartedly agree with bananabrain. She may be right about some Pagans being hostile against or perhaps just experciencing an antipathy against the mainstream religion they came from or that tried to subvert them. This is true for some, but claiming this can be seen in abundance on this board, is overstating.
When regarding any message board of Pagan or whatever kind, one has to remember each and every member is human, just that, no more and no less. All of us have character flaws (if not, PM me, :D ) and all of us have bad days, which can determine how we react to other people's statements and posts.
I can honestly admit for myself that, yes, bananabrain, I do feel sypathy for your claim, but I cannot honestly say most of us are guilty at your charge. I also have to admit, that, indeed, I am a different person than in real life on this board, but only in the respect that my temper doesn't flare up as easily here as in real life, considering I haev to type everyhting first, which consumes a little time, and allows for me to cool down while doing so.
Seeing this is becoming a long post indeed, I'll draw my conclusion soon. I, myself, have no problem with other religions, paths, philosophies, or whatever anyone chooses to call them. I'll rather say I don't agree than say someone's wrong. If you can find a post of mine in which I discriminate, please inform me of these facts, and I will apologise. I, too, am a work in progress, and I'm working on getting those nasty flaws out of myself.

Don't cry "wolf" toooo soon, we're not that bad. That's all I ask. :D

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

Apotheosis
June 7th, 2001, 05:41 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this thread. I felt a hint of this in the tone of the "Bashing" thread, and have seen it first hand when a perfectly reasonable discussion filled with perfectly reasonable points led to the removal of someone from MysticWicks.

We all believe a lot of different things. Diversity begets discrepancy, and many times what one person believes is to the contrary of anothers views. Given the premise of this board, this is unavoidable.

The mandate of MysticWicks is to respect the viewpoints of others. Respect does not mean contrition. What I do not think the moderators of this system beleive is the fundamental principle that a request for respect should never demand of a user to contradict their own beliefs, and more directly should never ask someone to back down from their beliefs simply to make other people feel better.

Unless someone is behaving poorly: slander, libel, blatant ignorance, rudeness, meaness, intentional provacative or inflamatory language; unless this occurs there is no grounds to ask someone to recant or alter their position even if it directly negates the viewpoint of anothers, and there is no grounds to request that the moderator take this action.

As a civil libertarian and moderator of other similar discussion forums, I am bothered by what I've seen on here, in principle. As a reasonable person, I don't really care that much and certainly concede that Mol can do whatever he pleases to do, and am commited to doing whatever the moderators tell me to do (if I don't like it, I leave).

However, I have a desire to see MysticWicks become a fantastic online pagan community. This cannot happen until we preserve the voices of those who hold opposite opinions - all of it defines the fabric of modern paganism. It is to that end that I write this.

Quite Sincerely Yours,

Dellit Tandannon
June 7th, 2001, 06:19 PM
i find that sometimes people say (or type) things without really knowing exactly how their words will effect those around them or if they even really explain how the speaker (or typist) really feels. and especially since this is text and not the true voice of the person, it could be taken totally wrong. its kinda hard to discern exactly which emotion a person is expressing through text.

eaglewolf
June 7th, 2001, 06:22 PM
I agree, even if Apotheosis did just slam me... :p

This can go on forever, back and forth.

Read what you will, accept that which you read if you choose to do so, or not.

This site is filled with opinion and should be taken as such. We cannot all get along, we cannot all be right, we cannot all be wrong.

Come here to learn, to share, to make friends, or enemies if you wish. But come here with the understanding : this is just a board filled with the opinions of people who cannot directly affect our lives, should we decide to hit the "back button."

With one push of the button, it can all go away... the choice is up to each of us, as individuals.

I vote to take it in stride, stick it out, and make this site that what you wish of it...

~ew

mol
June 7th, 2001, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Apotheosis
I wholeheartedly agree with this thread. I felt a hint of this in the tone of the "Bashing" thread, and have seen it first hand when a perfectly reasonable discussion filled with perfectly reasonable points led to the removal of someone from MysticWicks.


OFF-TOPIC...but relevant. This person removal was stemmed from MUCH more than just posts in the forum. Offensive pm's, disregarding moderators, etc.

I am posting this because some might not know the real reasons by what happened and this seemed like the time to nip it in the bud.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming and sorry for the off-topic post.

Semele
June 8th, 2001, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by mol


OFF-TOPIC...but relevant. This person removal was stemmed from MUCH more than just posts in the forum. Offensive pm's, disregarding moderators, etc.

I am posting this because some might not know the real reasons by what happened and this seemed like the time to nip it in the bud.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming and sorry for the off-topic post.

Also, this was not an easy, fly by the seat of your pants decision. It was an extremely different one. However there is proof and justification in the end result. The daily posts have tripled starting the day after the ban went into effect. There were a lot of folks not posting out of fear or just unwillingness to expose themselves to certain dribble. Just a little something to think on. Even Mol was amazed at the results. Sure we should all speak our minds, but that act shouldn't cause others to hold back for fear of being lashed out at.

Kaylara
June 8th, 2001, 08:59 AM
*CLAPPING*

Thank you Semele and Mol! YOu said it all.


Kaylara

bananabrain
June 8th, 2001, 09:22 AM
...for responding so politely.

to answer some of the points made:

kaylara: i take your point about other influences, but for concepts/symbols that are intended, when used by us, for internal use (eg lilith) have little to say about how someone who isn't jewish should relate to that symbol. i can tell you what the name symbolises to us, but it is largely irrelevant to what that name symbolises to you, unless you start to use our sacred texts as part of your sources. a lot of the sources that have been quoted in that context are midrashic - and consequently, not to be taken literally or historically. if you don't know how to use midrashic sources they are best left alone - ask what we think and how we use them by all means, but what seems to be done more often resembles borrowing my shoes without telling me and then telling everyone that i stole them.

widukind - i'm a bloke, not a woman. heh heh. i wasn't saying that most people here were intolerant. i was saying that some are - and the stridency of an opinion often substitutes for its basis in fact. if you say that black is white often enough and loudly enough, people will start repeating it. ever heard of the 'protocols of the elders of zion'? an utter fabrication, but again and again quoted to people as 'the facts'. ditto the blood libel. intolerance has its roots in fear of the unknown - so if you want to remove the fear, increase the knowledge. i am more than happy to try and answer questions.

just to reiterate my main point, though - i am here not because i'm a pagan, but because i think non-pagans are going to have to find a way to get along with you guys. IMHO, my community will be key in this, as we have been key in the struggle for civil rights and social justice all over the world. as i've said before, we have learnt how to survive as a minority. in fact, the dalai lama has given explicit instructions to the tibetan buddhist community in exile to learn from our experience, as his nation has suffered at the hands of the chinese in a similar way in the same way that ours suffered at the hands of the romans, with concomitant necessity for the shifting of religious paradigms. now to a lot of jews, buddhism might look a bit dodgy, what with the statues and so on, but when you actually get some dialogue going on, the points of commonality start to pop up.

nevertheless, thicker skins are needed. obviously many of you have come from mainstream religions and are influenced by your experiences both good and bad, but as you know, it takes real guts to make a change on your spiritual path. there are many stumbling blocks - the key is to not let difficulty make you bitter and cynical, or insecure and defensive.

b'shalom

bananabrain

mol
June 8th, 2001, 09:26 AM
Very well put, bb. And I am truly glad to have you with us...

widukind
June 8th, 2001, 09:35 AM
Sorry about the sex change, bananabrain :D

(Before anyone starts about intentfully provocative language, I mean I apologize about the wrong gender association, ;) )

Can I fix it? :eek: :D

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

widukind
June 8th, 2001, 09:41 AM
...but yes, I do come from a Catholic background, but I've only had good experiences. Of course, there are tabus which you have to avoid, but you can have those with any crowd.
I changed my Path when I felt Christianity had nothing more to offer. I'm not saying it isn't a wonderful religion, it is, and I have learnt a lot from the person Jesus Christ was (and as a matter of fact in my opinion it doesn't really matter all that much whether he ever existed or not, as long as his message gets through ), but I felt it was time to move on to something in which I could feel at home.
I would never deny the long way my ancestors have come, nor the lessons they might have learnt, and as such I don't regret any of my choices either. They taught me what I know today, and for that I'm grateful.

"For I have tasted the fruit"
- Provost Zakharov, Datalinks

( Those who have never heard of the game Alpha Centauri, don't mind who said it.)

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

Mairwen
June 8th, 2001, 10:02 AM
I changed my Path when I felt Christianity had nothing more to offer. [snip] but I felt it was time to move on to something in which I could feel at home.

Well put, Widukind. I left the Christian church after repeated attempts at asking questions and getting absolutely no results. Thankfully, I had a head on my shoulders and enough strength to start looking for those answers myself, and not through other people ~ and that's what brought me where I am today. None of us would be who or where we are today without the experiences of the past ~ the trick is to honor those experiences, but not to hold ourselves or our lives hostage to that.


I would never deny the long way my ancestors have come, nor the lessons they might have learnt, and as such I don't regret any of my choices either. They taught me what I know today, and for that I'm grateful.

Hear! Hear!

Tigerwallah
June 8th, 2001, 08:04 PM
Lilith seems to be a big part of this issue. I understand that Lilith is important to the Jews, however, she is also a dark pagan goddess, and exists apart from Jewish lore. I do not say this, to "rob" you of your culture. Many pagans worship Lilith, and this is their right - whether they understand her place in Jewish tradition or not. This is a Pagan community, and IMHO, offense was taken that Lilith came up as a discussion. I've been reading about Lilith, and have seen that she is a sore spot. Lilith the entity, pops up in many, many different cultures, and it is my honest opinion, that anyone who wants to discuss or worship her can.
Here is a quote from the Encyclopedia Mythica regarding Lilith --"Even though most of the Lilith legend is derived from Jewish folklore, descriptions of the Lilith demon appear in Iranian, Babylonian, Mexican, Greek, Arab, English, German, Oriental and Native American legends. Also, she sometimes has been associated with legendary and mythological characters such as the Queen of Sheba and Helen of Troy. In medieval Europe she was proclaimed to be the wife, concubine or grandmother of Satan."

I hold to my opinion that she is fair game for Pagans.
I might be going a little off topic, but I know that at least part of this thread was directed at me, I feel I need to explain that I was not being the slightest bit "intolerant," of your views. I don't agree with them, and I think that therein lies the problem.

I do not think that expressing ones views, even if they contradict the opinion of another, or even the beliefs held by an entire group, should be considered as being intolerant. I, myself, never used disrespectful language, I included sources when available, and stated that these were my opinions or beliefs. I certainly saw no difference coming from the opposing view's side. I think the accuisation of intolerance came when it became clear that I was not going to change my opinion about the "sacredness" of certain texts or that I held greater esteem in archeology than in written lore. I feel that many statements in the Astarte and Lilith forums were pretty inflamitory, and some felt that it was ok to attack the beliefs others, but were not open to such critisisms themselves.

I agree with Mol. We are all important to this community. We all have information to share. It is important to remember, however, that we are not all going to agree. Each one of us has found the "right" path. My faith might contradict yours, as yours does mine, but we both have every right to believe what we do. I would never tell anyone that my faith is the only right faith, but I felt as if it was being done to me. I also feel that much of what was writen was done out of frustration because I and some of the others, did not waver in our personal beliefs.

Well, that's how I see it. I was never offended by anything anyone said to me in a post or pm. I just stated my opinion and moved on. I find it sad that we all express our opinions, but some of us can not tolerate an opposing opinion.

Apotheosis
June 9th, 2001, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Even though most of the Lilith legend is derived from Jewish folklore, descriptions of the Lilith demon appear in Iranian, Babylonian, Mexican, Greek, Arab, English, German, Oriental and Native American legends. Also, she sometimes has been associated with legendary and mythological characters such as the Queen of Sheba and Helen of Troy. In medieval Europe she was proclaimed to be the wife, concubine or grandmother of Satan."


Ever notice this....


wife

...mother?


concubine

...maiden?


grandmother

...crone?

Or have I been up way to late tonight?

Tigerwallah
June 9th, 2001, 06:06 AM
Now let's go discuss it in the Lilith thread. It's very interesting, just not for this thread. :D

bananabrain
June 11th, 2001, 06:59 AM
..so i don't think i will join you for that. i am the last person to tell other people what they should or shouldn't *believe* - you have free will, it's your decision - you need neither my permission nor my blessing, as you are of course aware! i should say that, despite my feelings on the subject, lilith is quite an esoteric concept even for jews and one that is really not discussed terribly often - it's not something that impinges hugely on the life or practices of the vast majority of jews, unlike that of the shechinah for example. basically, if one doesn't have nocturnal emissions, one is really not going to get into this area... however, it did spark my interest as a subject with jewish interest, because people were quoting jewish texts as support for their arguments, in my opinion without appreciation for their context. TW, you and i are not going to agree about this stuff, as we both know, so i think it is best if we simply let it go and proceed upon our separate paths. this thread is not an attack upon you - i think your position has a certain integrity, even if it feels to me sometimes that it is predicated upon a denial of the central truths of my beliefs on the basis of academic categories that have no relevance to the system they purport to criticise which, again in my opinion, undermines their effectiveness as a *theological* argument. i do, however, applaud you for challenging everybody and anybody - no belief system should go unpoked!

b'shalom

bananabrain