Ceremonial Magic - Month One - Meditation Discussions

[Toad]

Here are the Meditations listed by the author for month one:

Magic is the art of Causation

Magic...speaks to the subconscious mind of man through symbols and rituals

Change is Growth

There is no part of me that is not of the Gods

The subconscious mind works through images not words

The Universe is a living organism

The Tree of Life

Symbols are a means of communication, a form of shorthand

Astral Magic is the meditation materialized to visual imagery

All things are possible to a trained mind

I will post small tidbits on each to get the discussion going. Feel free to tell me I am wrong...expand on an idea...inject your own. :)

[Toad]

Magic is the art of will. Will IS cause. True will is true power.

[mol]

This is for meditation discussions only.



Meditation -

She talks at some length about two different types of meditations. Active where you focus on a symbol and to concentrate on it to the exclusion of all else. Then Passive meditation where you allow random thoughts to come into your mind. She indicates that we will be doing a lot of active meditations as we build our minds discipline in the coming year.

She gives a list of meditation subjects for the month...I will include those below. She also stresses that you keep a record of the meditations...or more importantly a graph of meditation distractions. By keeping track of distractions as we work through the active meditations you, in effect, have a tangible record of your improvement as you meditate. The less interruptions the more focus you have. She recommends this strongly.

Meditations for Month One -

1 - Magic is the Art of Causation
2 - Magic...speaks to the subconscious mind of man through...symbols and rituals.
3 - Change is Growth
4 - There is no part of me that is not of the Gods
5 - The subconscious mind ... works through images not words
6 - The Universe is a Living Organism
7 - The Tree of Life
8- Symbols are a means of communication, a form of shorthand
9 - Astral Magic is meditation materialized to visual imagery
10 - All things are possible to the trained mind

One specific piece that she quotes from another source is that it takes 80 days of meditation to make it a habit.

[mol]

If this thread looks messy so far its because I merged the other thread that Toad started with mine. :p

[Rain Gnosis]

(ever get the impression someone's chomping at the bit to get going :lol: )


Magic is the art of will. Will IS cause. True will is true power.

Ok. What is will? How is it cause? What is truth? What is power, and how does will equate to it? What did you see in your meditation? What metaphors or examples can you relate to this meditation?

[Toad]

(ever get the impression someone's chomping at the bit to get going :lol: )

That would be me. Though it’s not so much chomping at the bit to get going...I mean I just started this before most of you. On the 12th I will begin month two exercises.

Mol I trimmed my post count back a bit. If everyone treats the tidbits I put out there the way Rain did…I would be writing a novel. :lol:




Ok. What is will? How is it cause? What is truth? What is power, and how does will equate to it? What did you see in your meditation? What metaphors or examples can you relate to this meditation?


Will…or True Will is the essence of being. When one understands and embraces his/her true will that is the first step on their true path. Hence my flow into cause... True will is the cause or the origin of an individual’s true path. Power is the realization of ones true being or essence as well as a true understanding of the individual’s ability to affect the things around it. Truth is perception.

During one of my meditation sessions…on the June 17th to be exact. I had a vision of a youngish child…8 or 9 years old. He was lost in the woods…scratched from thorns, sweating and truly frightened that something was chasing him. As he was running from this unseen predator he stumbled across the trail. He followed this trail util he came to a road. As soon as he saw the road he was no longer scared. He took the time to dust himself off and began walking home. The closer he got to home…the more sure he was…the more he thought his romp through the woods and his feelings of fear were unfounded. Now that he had found his road…he was safe and secure.

I took this forward with subsequent sessions. The boy began exploring further down this road…down the trail and off into the forest. But he always remembered where the trail/road where. Once he had this bearing in mind he was safe to explore the forest.

Based on this…and other reading I have decided that Magic is the Art of Will…or the art of using your will or essence to affect your environment. As Crowley said…Magic is the physical manifestation of will.

You put this all together you get my original statement…

‘Magic is the Art of Will. Will IS Cause. True Will is true power.’

I really should change the last bit to be ‘The realization of true will is true power.’

Anyway, I think that story should serve as both an example of my meditation as well as a metaphor/example that encompasses my initial piece.


Of course this is just my conclusion. I hope that there are others.

[mol]

When one understands and embraces his/her true will that is the first step on their true path. Hence my flow into cause... True will is the cause or the origin of an individual’s true path.

True Will IS an individuals Path. Realization of one's True Will is not the first step on your True Path...it IS Your True Path.

[mol]

Change is Growth.

Anytime a person changes it is usually because of a learning experience. Learning and understanding is Growth therefore anytime you learn something and change accordingly you have experienced Growth.

[Toad]

True Will IS an individuals Path. Realization of one's True Will is not the first step on your True Path...it IS Your True Path.

That is very interesting Mol.

I have always associated True Will with the essence of the individual. The path that individual walks is immaterial to their True Will. But you are contending that the path itself is the True Will of the individual.

Like many things at first that seems contrary to me…course I frequently change my mind. I am glad that we have started these discussions.

[mol]

Think of it like this (this analogy is coming off the top of my head here). The universe is a moving, growing, and ever changing organism. In order for something to move, it is best to have the least resistance to do so (so it can move freely). Finding Your True Will is like putting yourself in place with the Universe in such a way that you cause no resistance.

When you are not Living your True Will you will find resistance in your own life. This is because of the microcosm/macrocosm aspect of the universe. We are only a tiny part of the Universe, but since we have Free Will to choose what we do we can AND DO sometimes choose a Path that is in conflict with our Will. Obviously, if you are in conflict with Your Will then things will not go as smoothly as you would like. This is Karma. This is also the Universe's way of saying...get back where you belong...you are screwing me up here.

I hope that made sense.

[Toad]

Think of it like this (this analogy is coming off the top of my head here). The universe is a moving, growing, and ever changing organism. In order for something to move it is best o have the least resistance to do so (so it can move freely). Finding Your True Will is like putting yourself in place with the Universe in such a way that you cause no resistance.

When you are not Living your True Will you will find resistance in your own life. This is because of the microcosm/macrocosm aspect of the universe. We are only a tiny part of the Universe, but since we have Free Will to choose what we do we can AND DO sometimes choose a Path that is in conflict with our Will. Obviously, if you are in conflict with Your Will then things will not go as smoothly as you would like. This is Karma. This is also the Universe's way of saying...get back where you belong...you are screwing me up here.

I hope that made sense.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks Mol!

[Toad]

Change is Growth.

Anytime a person changes it is usually because of a learning experience. Learning and understanding is Growth therefore anytime you learn something and change accordingly you have experienced Growth.

While I agree completely with you said here. I would add that the individual doesnt necessarily have to be conscious of the lesson learned for an experience to teach them. Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that some lessons will ingrain themselves so deeply that are not part of your conscious thought process. As an example think of the small child that just learned about the hot stove...

[Toad]

There is no part of me that is not of the Gods

Using the classic example of the Tree of Life being a microcosmic reflection of the human being AND a macrocosmic reflection of Deity. We are made in Deity'simage. Our greatest want is to be like deity. The struggle that IS life is to be like the light of deity and to give infinitely.

[mol]

This also goes back to what I was saying about the Universe being a living organism.

[Toad]

This also goes back to what I was saying about the Universe being a living organism.


Yep...there are several of these things that are very similar.

[Toad]

The Universe is a living organism


We are all part of the one...the one is all part of each of us. We are but a different reflection of the same light.

I am guessing this is also what Crowley meant when he suggested that everyone is a star.

[shiloki]

hold on now - let's back up a minute....i need some more input on this True Will thing....


When you are not Living your True Will you will find resistance in your own life....Obviously, if you are in conflict with Your Will then things will not go as smoothly as you would like. This is Karma.This is also the Universe's way of saying...get back where you belong...you are screwing me up here.

kind of like my mom's mantra "a place for everything and everything in it's place"...?....well....what if you don't *know* what your True Will is.....what your "place in the universe" is and how to "get back where you belong"...?

according to this True Will eventually = True Power, in such a situation a person would never gain True Power - right?

[Toad]

hold on now - let's back up a minute....i need some more input on this True Will thing....

kind of like my mom's mantra "a place for everything and everything in it's place"...?....well....what if you don't *know* what your True Will is.....what your "place in the universe" is and how to "get back where you belong"...?

according to this True Will eventually = True Power, in such a situation a person would never gain True Power - right?

If I am reading your question correctly...I think you have it right. One must realize their true will in order to weild true power.

Of course the definition or what exactly that true power actualy is...is another debate. =)

[mol]

according to this True Will eventually = True Power, in such a situation a person would never gain True Power - right?

More or less...exactly. How can you ever expect to gain the Power of the Universe...if you are working against it? ;) See?

[shiloki]

so, then.....how do you find your True Will???


edited to add: i have a feeling someone is going to say "thru ritual and meditation"....

[mol]

You find it in different ways and some folks even venture to say that it finds you. I would say that ritual and mediation is probably one of the soundest ways to find it. Knowledge and Conversation with one's HGA is also a very important part of the process in my opinion. The connection with the Divine will help you 'fall into place' so to speak.

[Toad]

The Tree of Life


The tree of life is the map of the one. Hence it is the map of each of us. To know the tree is to know yourself. To master the tree is to master yourself. The Tree is a macrocosmic map of deity and as we are all created in the divines image the Tree is also a microcosmic view of humanity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is the initiate/magicians 'Great Work' to climb the Tree of Life, overcoming imbalances and imperfections in his own being, thereby achieving exalted states of consciousness.

[Toad]

Just curious...is anyone other than Mol and I actively doing these meditations?

[Lunacie]

Just curious...is anyone other than Mol and I actively doing these meditations?

Actively? No. At this time I'm not disciplined enough to even do Reiki on myself regularly. But whenever I remember, or when this thread is in front of me, then I take a few minutes to meditate on the list. For an eclectic who has learned nearly everything metaphysical/magical the hard way, by self experimentation, it's hard to find the discipline that I think CM takes, and deserves.

[Rain Gnosis]

Yes, I am, but you guys seem to be motoring through them whereas I'm working through them in terms of meditation and consideration one at a time.

Not saying either way is right or wrong, just that I'm working at a different pace :)

[Toad]

Agreed about the pace issue...you all work though them as you see fit. Its just that its been kind of quiet in here on this topic...just checking to see if folks were still around is all.

[Rain Gnosis]

mol - HGA? higher guardian angel? or..?

shiloki - my take on true will is that it is the will of your higher self, above base and momentary desires - like, when you get pissed off at someone, and for a moment you wanna hex them and be angry, but then you spend some time considering and realize anger isn't the best thing for you - your true will, the best for you and the universe, the best option to continue advancing spiritually, is to just let whatever angered you go and understand the other person has their own beliefs and acted by their best judgment. it's what's best for you in your entire life, not just in the moment, and what's gonna be the best way to work with the universe to achieve your goals. for instance, if you wanna be a more accepting person, even though in the moment you want to think someone's a jackass and be annoyed at them, you realize that you shouldn't let yourself get angry about them because all it does is impede your ability to become a better person.

know what I mean?

[Toad]

mol - HGA? higher guardian angel? or..?



HGA=Holy Guardian Angel

Specifically, Crowley's Liber Samekh outlines the process for contacting your HGA. Of course this is a Thelemic slant on this process. I gather there are many many ways to accomplish the same thing.



Knowledge and Conversation with one's HGA is also a very important part of the process in my opinion


Based on the reading I have done in the past two weeks...and the meditation I have done around this subject I have to say that this is the understatement of the year!

I have begun my search for my HGA. I have the longing for his/her company...

Sincerely...thank you Mol. ;-)

[Rain Gnosis]

holy. of course. :lol: why didn't I think of that word. I was thinking "higher,happy,hardy,horny..???"

[Toad]

holy. of course. :lol: why didn't I think of that word. I was thinking "higher,happy,hardy,horny..???"

Horny Guardian Angel? BWAAA HA HA HA :smoke:

[shiloki]

as lunacie said, no, i'm not actively practicing the meditaions...not like, spending such and such amount of time during the day or evening in quiet contemplation....i feel i should be, but that just ain't gonna happen right now....but, whenever i check this thread, i always take moment to consider the meditation and what it could mean...and, throughout the day i do find my mind wandering back to the mediations on it's own, sometimes when something i'm doing at the moment triggers some kind of relationship w/the meditation...then i'm, like, "hmmmm....i wonder if that's what it means...."...ya know??

rain gnosis....interesting....i'll have to think on that regarding the true will thing...i seem to be having a hard time w/that one...

[Lunacie]

Our true will ~ I see this as being like Ego versus inner Spirit. Ego is what we think we want or need and Spirit is that little voice that we don't often listen to that tells us what we truly need to be happy.

[teyl]

I am doing the meditations but as I have had house guests for the last 3 weeks it is a bit hard to be really consistent. I have cut my distractions down a bit which is good but when it comes to the meditation I find it hard to discuss.

[Semele]

Well I have tried and tried, but i am finding focus increasingly hard for me right now. I can't seem to relax enough to meditate or when I do get to that point I fall asleep. I am hoping it is because of the alien inhabiting my body right now and that I can pick up after the festivities.

In a nutshell, I feel a little as though Mol is holding back waiting for e to catch up and i have decided to just back out for now. I don't want to do it half way, well I should say I don't think it actually can be done in such a manner. Plus then I will have all the benefit of all you experienced folks to guide me. I do plan to follow along with the conversations here though when I can.

[Toad]

Well I have tried and tried, but i am finding focus increasingly hard for me right now. I can't seem to relax enough to meditate or when I do get to that point I fall asleep. I am hoping it is because of the alien inhabiting my body right now and that I can pick up after the festivities.

In a nutshell, I feel a little as though Mol is holding back waiting for e to catch up and i have decided to just back out for now. I don't want to do it half way, well I should say I don't think it actually can be done in such a manner. Plus then I will have all the benefit of all you experienced folks to guide me. I do plan to follow along with the conversations here though when I can.


:sadman:

While I do TOTALLY understand ... I can't say I am happy to hear that Semele. I do have to tip my hat to you moms though...its an amazing thing you girls do carrying that baby around, delivering them, nursing them, etc. Us guys got the best end of that deal. ;)

One things for sure...you have one hell of a live in tutor when you start back up. =)

[Toad]

We are all part of the one...the one is all part of each of us. We are but a different reflection of the same light.

Every man and woman is a star. =)

Everything from the grass to a stone in the ground is part of this living organism All things have their own vibration...all things reflect the divine light. Some may appear brighter than others but do not the stars also vary in the night sky?

[Toad]

This to me is merely a statement of fact.

The conscious mind may learn readily from words but the subconscious minds learning will come from symbols. Meditation being the primary means of educating the subconscious.

A fine example of this that feeling you get when you see a symbol and you are drawn to it. Perhaps you don't at first really understand why, but your subconscious does. It guides you to the symbol and you finally decipher its meaning and then that circle is complete.

This is also one of the most revolutionary (for my personal development) suggestions I have ever read. Course after I put that together I was slapping my head wonderhing how in the hell I hadnt put that together long before this statement.

[Toad]

They allow the teaching of complex information forms without the need for verbal communication. They are the language of the subconscious the most powerful part of the human brain.

[Semele]

A fine example of this that feeling you get when you see a symbol and you are drawn to it. Perhaps you don't at first really understand why, but your subconscious does. It guides you to the symbol and you finally decipher its meaning and then that circle is complete.


Exactly! Even more of a wake up call and spine tingling event is when a new friend that you meet for the very first time, (even if you feel as if you have known them long) brings you the exact symbol you feel so drawn to!

[Toad]

Exactly! Even more of a wake up call and spine tingling event is when a new friend that you meet for the very first time, (even if you feel as if you have known them long) brings you the exact symbol you feel so drawn to!

You know...if this had happened a year ago I probably would have been wigged out by it. Now I take it as a sign that I am in the right place, doing the right things, and meeting the right people. ;)

I did this carving long before we even discussed meeting. I have never been drawn to the symbol myself...but when I wanted to try my first chip carving project...that symbol slammed into my head.

How very intresting this...

This kind of thing has happend to me 3 times now in less than a month. Plus that symbol is a sign of the trinity... I need to do some more research on the number 3...

[Semele]

It is a bit unusual...but this kind of thing has happend to me 3 times now in less than a month. Plus that symbol is a sign of the trinity... I need to do some more research on the number 3...

Coincidences! You are just more aware of them now. Which reminds me of a favorite book of mine. Have you ever read The Celestine Prophecy? One of my all time favorties. Strangely enough it isn't the most well written book and has some pretty poor character development, but the messages are trully fascinating. I had been bugging Mol for about two years to read the darned thing and he kept putting it off. When he finally read it he was like, "Oh I see what you mean now." So many times he would say something to me and I would be telling him that it was directly mentioned in that book. If you have not read it, pick it up the next time you come over. I bet you could find some time to read it in the next few days.

As for the trinity..Oh man, I could go on and on for hours. Almost every religion has incorporated some aspect of the trinity. It is the most magical number to me and I think it is no coincidence that we will have three children even after a struggle to get the second and no real intention of getting the third. Also, no coincidence is the names we have chosen for them, which is only now starting to make sense. In fact, when we were choosing Trinity's name, the whole three thing almost made me not want to name her that. Glad I stuck with it because it felt right.

[Toad]

Coincidences! You are just more aware of them now.


Just a coincidence? Perhaps I am in error...but I don't believe in coincidence. ;)



Have you ever read The Celestine Prophecy?


Nope...never even heard of it though I would love to check it out sometime. I have been an absolute book slut since I have been solo. I am getting through books at an alarming rate. I definetly have a book problem...I can never get enough of them. =)

[Semele]

Well, you will get through this book very quickly because once you get started it is hard to put down. Again, hard to explain due to its true lack of..well the usual things that keep us interested in a good "fiction" book. I get the idea that he was trying to get his ideas out there and chose this vain to do so. Ther are other books in the series, although i really only found the first enlightening. There is a non fiction variety about living the celestine prophecy though and I haven't read it. You must come over soon now and get it. i really think you will enjoy it.

The use of the word coincidence isn't exactly what we usually think of when we here it. it is most often dismissed as coincidence and nothing else. This book talks about these insights that are really just lessons to be learned and the first is to recognize the coincidences in life. For instance any time you meet someone or even talk to them, even if it is a one time encounter, you learn something and it happened for a reason. The true key is devining those lessons. Often times it is the other person who gains something from our meeting..but I kind of see that as a win win situation.

It also goes into energy exchanges in an awesome way. I really can't say enough about this book. It was a true light for me in many many ways. As you are reading it, it's like, "yes, exactly..why couldn't I explain it because I know it."

[Toad]

The use of the word coincidence isn't exactly what we usually think of when we here it. it is most often dismissed as coincidence and nothing else. This book talks about these insights that are really just lessons to be learned and the first is to recognize the coincidences in life. For instance any time you meet someone or even talk to them, even if it is a one time encounter, you learn something and it happened for a reason. The true key is devining those lessons. Often times it is the other person who gains something from our meeting..but I kind of see that as a win win situation.

It also goes into energy exchanges in an awesome way. I really can't say enough about this book. It was a true light for me in many many ways. As you are reading it, it's like, "yes, exactly..why couldn't I explain it because I know it."


Ahhh...I see. Fascinating...yep I do need to read this one...no question about it.

That is what I meant by ' Just a coincidence? Perhaps I am in error...but I don't believe in coincidence ' ;)

[mol]

Yes...this book is definitely recommened.

[teyl]

You know...if this had happened a year ago I probably would have been wigged out by it. Now I take it as a sign that I am in the right place, doing the right things, and meeting the right people. ;)

I am the same. I find it as a reassurance. A sign that I am on the right path.

One conclusion I have come to as a result of these meditations is that Life is an endless conversation with yourself. Now that I have opened myself up to them, the thoughts pop into my head at odd times.

[mol]

I am the same. I find it as a reassurance. A sign that I am on the right path.

One conclusion I have come to as a result of these meditations is that Life is an endless conversation with yourself. Now that I have opened myself up to them, the thoughts pop into my head at odd times.
Is Life endless?

[Hippywitch]

Know I'm a bit late with this tpoic but I've been reading the intro and first month threads and I'm catching up slowly but surely.
I've been practising on my own for a few years now but having just finished a cycle of my life that has taken some 12 years I've recently rededicated myself to the spiritual path. Now it's just a case of studying and getting back to myself... my true will if you will! :lol:
Here's what I thought so far about the meditations... and be aware as I've only started on catch up I've only dwelt on the first 3.


Toad wrote:
Will…or True Will is the essence of being. When one understands and embraces his/her true will that is the first step on their true path. Hence my flow into cause... True will is the cause or the origin of an individual’s true path. Power is the realization of ones true being or essence as well as a true understanding of the individual’s ability to affect the things around it. Truth is perception.

I've always seen magick as the act of will effecting change, whether that be in your person or outside of it. As such it makes perfect sense to me to define magick as 'the act of causation'. The power of will is such a potent force and many try to implement their will without due consideration of the outcome and without true knowledge of themself. True power then becomes the physical and spiritual manifestation of one's true will.
Cool!

The purgation book is also proving to be very useful... it's like having counselling sessions without the embarrassment and expense. :sick: :rolleyes:

Toad wrote:
During one of my meditation sessions…on the June 17th to be exact. I had a vision of a youngish child…8 or 9 years old.

Thought it was interesting that you used a form of astral journeying in your meditations, following the wanderings of the child. Your inner child?

Had to edit this cos got the quote bits wrong! D'oh! :eyebro:

[Toad]

I've always seen magick as the act of will effecting change, whether that be in your person or outside of it. As such it makes perfect sense to me to define magick as 'the act of causation'. The power of will is such a potent force and many try to implement their will without due consideration of the outcome and without true knowledge of themself. True power then becomes the physical and spiritual manifestation of one's true will.
Cool!


Very nicely stated! =)



Thought it was interesting that you used a form of astral journeying in your meditations, following the wanderings of the child. Your inner child?


This particular 'vision' wasnt truly an astral projection...at the time I didnt really understand what it was...but with a bit more time and a few more experiences these are more like vivid visual and auditory 'visualizations'. I am not consciously directing them...rather they are a subconscious controled lesson of sorts.

Welcome aboard Hippywitch!

[Hippywitch]

Yeah I know I'm still on month one and everyone else is moving onto month 3 now but what the hey! :rolleyes:

Just had to share my experience of meditating on 'There is no part of me that is not of the gods.'

It took me ages to relax and get into the right frame of mind for meditating this day. I must have spent the best part of an hour just trying to get my body to relax never mind my mind. I was on the verge of giving it up as a bad thing when I realised I'd slipped into trance mode without conscious realisation (if that makes sense!).
I was drifting as if in a void and it was all black then light started to flow from my body, centred around my middle eye, my chestbone and my belly button. It was faint at first and gradually grew brighter until I was floating in a cloud of light. This cloud of light was extended all around me and threads flew off in every direction joining to other balls of light as if I was just one spot on an infinite glowing spider's web. I felt so connected to everything around me, to everyone within the web, to all living things, to the world at large. And as I thought about the significance of the web I understood that I was a part of the whole, that we all are, and that in return the whole is reflected in each and everyone of us.

I just wanted to share that because over a week later I still have the connected feeling and I hope I never lose sight of it again. :)

[Toad]

I just wanted to share that because over a week later I still have the connected feeling and I hope I never lose sight of it again. :)


That's fantastic HW!

And dont worry about being in month one...its not like we are that far ahead anyway. =) No worries.

[Hippywitch]

Just to step back a wee bit again... I've been looking up Dolores A-N on the net and came across the Servants of the Light site. V. interesting!
Anyway with reference to the introduction questions I have been wondering... What do you think makes a good magician?... I originally interpreted this as good meaning successful, after all good is such an arbitary word... but now I've begun to think on the other meaning of good, that is the opposite of bad, good vs evil, light vs dark etc... and I can't help but think that this is just as important a definition as successful... A 'good' magician is one who realises their place in the vast scheme of life as a whole and uses their magic to those ends and not for personal gain and/or power.

What does anyone else think?

[Xentor]

Nice one, Hippywitch, hadn't thought of that myself. Otah, is it really necessary to be either a good or an evil magician? Is it necessary to dwell on the difference? Or is it something folklore has inherited upon us? Isn't it true, that many pagans believe in the principle of balance, meaning good and evil must coexist, being two sides of the same medal? How would the definition of good / evil magician differ from a good / evil generic person?

[Toad]

Just to step back a wee bit again... I've been looking up Dolores A-N on the net and came across the Servants of the Light site. V. interesting!
Anyway with reference to the introduction questions I have been wondering... What do you think makes a good magician?... I originally interpreted this as good meaning successful, after all good is such an arbitary word... but now I've begun to think on the other meaning of good, that is the opposite of bad, good vs evil, light vs dark etc... and I can't help but think that this is just as important a definition as successful... A 'good' magician is one who realises their place in the vast scheme of life as a whole and uses their magic to those ends and not for personal gain and/or power.

What does anyone else think?

Well…you asked. =)

I believe that good and evil are simply a question of perception. What is good to one may be questionable to another.

While I agree that a magician is ‘one who realizes these place in the vast scheme of life as a whole’…the exclusion of personal gain and or power is where we part paths.

I would sign on for “A good magician is one that realizes his place in the universe, who understands his/her true will and pursues that will to the utmost of his/her abilities.”

HW this is not meant as a direct attack on you…honest…but this opinion that using magic for personal gain is somehow bad is laughable to me. It seems that there is a predominate undercurrent in the pagan world that suggest that magic for personal gain is a bad thing. As long as one is pursuing their true will I see no problem whatsoever in using magic for personal gain and or power.

[Hippywitch]

Actually I don't have a problem with magick for personal gain... we all do spells for getting a job/better job/ pay rise etc. I've been known to do the odd spell to block other people's negative influences :rolleyes:
The problem I do have is with those people who would use their power in order to gain power over others, to effect control over others if you see what I mean! :smoke:

Guess this all boils done to the balancing act of good and bad which after all are culturally specific definitions anyway. :lol:

Also meditations 2, 5 and 8 about symbols and the subconscious mind have made me realise how inadequate verbal (and written) language is. And this coming from a literature student! The first languages were an attempt to define visual stimuli (eg. rock, tree), symbols (circle, cross etc) and abstract concepts (time). And millenia later we still have problems communicating! We still stumble for the 'right' word, we still misunderstand each other. And maybe most importantly... there is no universal language! Unless you think in symbols and images and try to reach into that different state of consciousness. :fpeace:

Reading through this again I can see where I've made mistakes just trying to communicate clearly and precisely my meaning to others.
:megaphone

Ho hum!

[Toad]

Actually I don't have a problem with magick for personal gain... we all do spells for getting a job/better job/ pay rise etc. I've been known to do the odd spell to block other people's negative influences :rolleyes:
The problem I do have is with those people who would use their power in order to gain power over others, to effect control over others if you see what I mean! :smoke:

Guess this all boils done to the balancing act of good and bad which after all are culturally specific definitions anyway. :lol:




I see where you are coming from... =)



Also meditations 2, 5 and 8 about symbols and the subconscious mind have made me realise how inadequate verbal (and written) language is. And this coming from a literature student! The first languages were an attempt to define visual stimuli (eg. rock, tree), symbols (circle, cross etc) and abstract concepts (time). And millenia later we still have problems communicating! We still stumble for the 'right' word, we still misunderstand each other. And maybe most importantly... there is no universal language! Unless you think in symbols and images and try to reach into that different state of consciousness. :fpeace:

Reading through this again I can see where I've made mistakes just trying to communicate clearly and precisely my meaning to others.
:megaphone

Ho hum!

Totally agreed that verbal and especially written language is lacking. I am sure most folks out here who have read many of my posts understand my disdain for written communication.

Very well said HW. =)

[NightBathen]

magic only speaks to those who are too blind to truly sence it through rituals and symbols. Furthermore, I see words in my visualization, what is the difference between the spoken word and the written. To finish I would allow the notion that we were given free will to act as we saw to.
This is what makes the divine connection such a connection, otherwise it would be more or less an obligation, so I would in closing have to dissagree that all of you is of the gods. Free will is not a gift it is an allowance of a direct act. Forgive me if I seem rude, I am just blunt and honest. -jack

[Toad]

magic only speaks to those who are too blind to truly sence it through rituals and symbols.

Huh? Can you expand on this a bit? I dont think I follow.



This is what makes the divine connection such a connection, otherwise it would be more or less an obligation, so I would in closing have to dissagree that all of you is of the gods. Free will is not a gift it is an allowance of a direct act. Forgive me if I seem rude, I am just blunt and honest. -jack


Blunt and honest is never a problem for me personally. =) However...I do have to say that I could not possibly disagree with you more (assuming I am reading that correctly).

That said...thanks for the input....differing points of view only serve to educate if allowed to do so.

[NightBathen]

ok, In your first thread you posted some of your thoughts and meditations. I do not feel that magic speaks to us in the form of symbols and rituals. Magic is not linear enough to be restrained into a geometrical form or a bunch of words said in a "Circle". Magic is not just a manifestation of will, it is the energy all around us all the time. Now this is where you have to be carefull because this conversation can only go two ways, religious and not. This seperate distinction is the definitive in the source of this energy. If it is religious then it is divine energy, if it is not it is the manifestation of potential energy released by the earth or the release of our own energy innate to the human idea

[Rain Gnosis]

So you're saying a small part of magic can't be expressed in symbols? Or that symbols can't be a gateway to a particular kind of energy?

[Toad]

So you're saying a small part of magic can't be expressed in symbols? Or that symbols can't be a gateway to a particular kind of energy?

Read my mind... :D

[NightBathen]

what I am trying to say I guess is that we as humans see a straight line as a straight line, but under a microscope that line is made up of thousands of swirls and intersecting lines. We feel a need to use geometrical figures and rites and rituals out of not only tradition but some crazy idea that hermatic gesture is a way to raise, control, and shape energy. Some would say that we are not gods, we can not just sit in a chair and think a love spell that we never did is going to work. All of you talk about free will and the power of it, so why is it so hard to believ that those two little words are all that is needed not only to raise and control and shape energy but also to create it. Magic in its raw form is just a big ball of untapped energy. Those who truly can call themselves enlightened I dont believe have any use for these worldly symbols, in essence it is a fisherman using a net to catch fish, instead of just becoming one and eating at his leisure. If I seam to talk in circles then think about it this way- a ritual is a worldly restraint that we as humans have created to occomplish a specific task, I believe it is a shackle, just one more thing that grounds us to this plane. When we release worldly creation from our shadow book, all that will be left is magic, the book will be blank but writheing with the purest energy we have ever known, our own.

[Rain Gnosis]

Those who truly can call themselves enlightened I dont believe have any use for these worldly symbols, in essence it is a fisherman using a net to catch fish, instead of just becoming one and eating at his leisure.

So, in other words, you are admitting that symbols work, but you're trying to tell us that only unenlightened feeble-minded people use them rather then going straight to the source. Or am I misreading?

Interesting. I notice in another thread you mention the akashic records and viewing a book with an infinity symbol on it - why use a symbol to work with the akashic records then?

My thought is, yes, symbols *can* be a crutch, but don't necessarily have to be. As far as that goes, the word "lake" is a symbol for a large body of water. Yes it only hints at the magnificence of the water, and the word is nothing but a scrap of letters, but even so, without the word, most people would have no way to talk about that water.

Some people don't realize the word or symbol isn't the whole, that it's only a key to the real thing, but I guess I'm saying not all people are like that.

[Toad]

Some people don't realize the word or symbol isn't the whole, that it's only a key to the real thing


Words and symbols are keys in my mind. Very nicely stated Rain!

Jack -



Those who truly can call themselves enlightened I dont believe have any use for these worldly symbols, in essence it is a fisherman using a net to catch fish, instead of just becoming one and eating at his leisure.

Interesting analogy.



a ritual is a worldly restraint that we as humans have created to occomplish a specific task, I believe it is a shackle, just one more thing that grounds us to this plane.

A shackle? I could not disagree more. Used properly ritual is not a block...it is in fact a doorway.

I am just guessing here Jack but seems to me this is rapidly approaching a discussion of technique. While some find rituals regimented and constraining...others see it as a means of opening the door to higher planes of consciousness. Whether one uses ritual or some other means the effect is the same. As it is said...'there is more than one way to skin a cat'.

Interesting theories you have Jack...they have caused a lot of thought (which is always a good thing) on my part I must say. This is just a gut instinct here…but would you consider yourself a practitioner/student of chaos magic?

[NightBathen]

In regaurds to the akashic records, I dont really think that ties into what we are talking about, viewing your past from a book is not in itself the practice of magic, the symbol of infinity is not used in this way as a magical sypher, only to promote the memory of the past and present. Anyhoo, no, I am not a student of chaos magic, although the governing philosophy related to chaos is indeed fascinating.
I fully understand what the two of you believe to be true about ritual sorcery and it is true that it has its place in the conception of magical brickabrack. I am just hopeing to open some eyes into the possability that maybe all of it, I mean all of it is just one more veil they have placed over our eyes in the quest for true understanding, and I honestly did not mean to offend any, it isnt that only dim-wits use symbols in magic, its just that even the sharpest thorn is blind to what it is stabbing. I think that in tapping the infinate energy at our disposal maybe we have to forgo our gifts of humanity and completely open ourselves to its energy's, animalists, shamanic skin walkers, chaos mages, they all do not focus the energy they allow the energy to focus them. Is that what we arent getting? Its hard to say, some would call it possesion, why is it that houghans claim to be able to sow the universe into someones chest cavity? Is it a foregone conclusion to assume that hermetic magic is the true way? That is like saying Christ is the only true son of God. This I do not think is a discussion of tecknique but a quest for answers

[Rain Gnosis]

In regaurds to the akashic records, I dont really think that ties into what we are talking about, viewing your past from a book is not in itself the practice of magic,

Uh, not sure about your definition of magic, but it does fit into my idea. Magic is simply becoming aware of and manipulating energy - and looking at your past lives definitely involves that, IMHO. That's all any symbol is used for - to tap into something and manipulate it, just like a book is a symbol to tap into past lives.

IMHO (that means 'in my humble opinion').

I think essentially we agree but we're looking at it from different angles - you that symbols are crutches or binds, and me that they can be but can also be keys. I definitely see symbols, myths, etc. as a foundation from which to reach up, rather then a framework to be restrained by. Yeah, someone can definitely build up a house of myth and confine themselves in it, and yet others can turn symbols into framework by which to reach *up* and away from the earth.

I can definitely appreciate your desire to suggest to people that they shouldn't allow themselves to be shackled by symbols etc. - a lot of people, I think, don't realize that that's what they often do. This is why I lean towards chaos philosophy (and LaVeyan Satanism, to a lesser extent) myself.

This is probably the most fascinating conversation I've had today tho, so I'm glad you're chatting with us :)

[Toad]

I am just hopeing to open some eyes into the possability that maybe all of it, I mean all of it is just one more veil they have placed over our eyes in the quest for true understanding


If I understand what you are writing here...I do tend to agree more or less.

I would however point out that symbols can be a useful tool in developing the abilities of the individual. Symbols are simply a doorway to 'attunement'. They are a path, a means of guiding the neophyte to heightened states of consciousness. Once these heightened states are attained the serious practitioner will no longer need the symbol as he/she is ‘attuned’ to the energies.
At least this is how I currently am using symbols and ritual.

Then again…I am a self professed neophyte learner myself. I claim no expertise in this area, and I hope that I have made this quite clear.




This is probably the most fascinating conversation I've had today tho, so I'm glad you're chatting with us

I agree completely.

[Xentor]

That was fascinating indeed.

I have another analogy. If a man is hungry, you can give him a fish, so he can eat. But after a while, you will want to hand him a net, so he can catch his own fish.

That's why I'm following this course in ritual magic. I need the fish but I don't know how to create a net yet. I'm happy to receive any fish handed out.

That's a bit like the discussion about the temple. First you create a real room. After a while, you internalise it. You don't need the real room, for it has become part of you and you can use it at your convenience.

On the path to enlightenment, many resources are available. So the big question is, do you eventually stick with the resources or do you transcend? Will you be happy with the door knob or will you enter through the door? I haven't even found the way to the door yet.

[Rain Gnosis]

I think at that point you transcend the keys at times but still use them if you want to. Yes it's good to know you don't need the keys (and I mean, we all *read* that, but I think a lot of us don't internally "Know" that), but even so, they're still useful.

Again, with the Chaos philosophy, I *can* break out of religion and culture and still be spiritual, but I absolutely still love Wiccan spirituality and doing a circle at Sabbats. Not because I *need* to do a circle and a sabbat ritual, but because I *like* to.

Hope that makes sense.

[Xentor]

Of course it does.

[NightBathen]

What does it feel like for you to have a set of beliefs that incorporates a pantheon or maybe even a single God and to sit in on a ritual not of your faith?
And if not having faith in a divine essence, it still is human nature to be left or right wing. A seax picta (or celtic pagan) has an extremely deep carving in the tree of life, who's Ideals and methods vary greatly than those of say a Gardenarian Wicca. But it is not uncommon for the two to bake cakes and leave them on peoples doors on the old Sam. I guess what I am trying to ask and say at the same time is that having only a melting pot of ideas burrowed from other occult cultures and an extreme belief in one God, I walk any path that catches my fancy for the day, so he will it. But for those who believe otherwise, is there any internal struggle or moral question or even obligation you feel in practicing ways that arent your own? When you lay in the circle an envoke Diana for instant, does it occur to you that that is just a name given to an energy devoted to a cause, or do you actually believe that it is a goddess? Getting back to how this thread started, Toad had said there is nothing of him that isnt of the gods(plural in male annunciation I might add) but if this is true, wich ones and why?

[Xentor]

Feel free to leave the course any time you see fit. If you can't reconcile the rituals with your beliefs, don't do the rituals.

Or, do them out of curiosity and let them enrich your experiences.

For me, my personal belief lacks a thing or two. It explains our universe and the reason for living, but doesn't show me a way of living. My personal belief isn't comforting in the least. At best, it is strengthening. Thus, there's room for improvement and I've been studying a lot. This is one of the studies I'm willing to put more time into.

[NightBathen]

I am not saying anything of that nature, and I do feel partial to part and par of the lesson, I just am someone who feel that he isn't going to learn anything that isnt straight from the livewell of humanity. It is human emotion and the Ideals, morals and philosophy of those who study the ancient ways that make those ways work. Did you ever hear the old saying"If god did not exist, it would be nescissary to create him."?
This friends could not be farther from false. I believe for any of this to work you have to create the ritual yourself, expending your own energy's or imprint on the energys of those that created the ritual. I feel and learn through emotion, through raw energy. Even if God wasnt really there, he would be, becouse so many of us believe in him so strongly. It is that very energy, that very exertion of our will that brings magic into creation. I think that by studying the opinions and beliefs of those who open their books to us, I may take that much more from it.
I mean only to provoke thoughtfull conversation in wich I can walk away better understanding those like myself, but who's Ideas differ. The Earth was not born beautifull, many brutal and ugly things happened before it evolved into what our most ancient ancestors loved. One mans beliefs are the same way. Flat worms when they multiply, each has the memories and experiances of the parent worm. Much like rebirth.

[Xentor]

I think I understand. To have a true religious experience one should create their own ritual, based on one's own emotions.

Possible. But I'm not ready to do that yet, I need the guidance from this course, to see what others did before me. I think it was in the Renaissance that artists where taught: imitate, improve, create.

As for magical rituals, I'm still very much in imitation fase. And when I feel the need, perhaps I'll transcend that and put in my own stuff. As you have undoubtedly seen from the wealth of Toad's descriptions, he's already customising the author's instructions to fit his own insights.

[Rain Gnosis]

What does it feel like for you to have a set of beliefs that incorporates a pantheon or maybe even a single God and to sit in on a ritual not of your faith?

It feels like picking up a set of glasses and viewing the world from someone else's point of view, even knowing the glasses aren't my own.


But for those who believe otherwise, is there any internal struggle or moral question or even obligation you feel in practicing ways that arent your own?

I feel an obligation to immerse myself in the culture as much as possible to borrow from it, and an obligation to be clear when I'm talking about it that it is not my own culture - I'm only borrowing, I'm not an expert there. With Kemeticism for instance I'm always saying "look, here's this temple and that temple and another temple, and you should go to them to learn" - I only borrow, I am not an expert. I cannot live the culture of Ancient Egypt, or be a Native American shaman, or be a Norse woman.

[Toad]

Getting back to how this thread started, Toad had said there is nothing of him that isnt of the gods(plural in male annunciation I might add) but if this is true, wich ones and why?

Jack -

I would point out that my calling them gods in 'plural with male annuciation' was in fact a direct quote from our authors monthly meditations.

If you are truly interested in how I percieve the divine...I would direct you to this thread:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=32261

[NightBathen]

Bravo Toad, I couldnt have said it better myself, and I have a feeling you and I could learn a lot from each other if you had the time to toss some bones. You rock. Thank you.




:yourock

[NightBathen]

damn, once again, another pathetic attemp at using smiles has failed!!!!! :(

[Toad]

I have a feeling you and I could learn a lot from each other if you had the time to toss some bones.


Feelings are very much mutual and I always have time for a good discussion. =)

[NightBathen]

well,

well, now that everyone is feeling the warmth of others posative thoughts, I have a dream that I would like everyone to tell me what they think about. Now before you go bashing, just read the whole thing before you pass judgement.
I was chasing this woman, making extreme sexual advances on her( grey says this is a want of change) she was a red-head( wich I secretly obscess over) but very, very unattractive. I will keep the conversation pc because I dont want to piss off mol, but I could think of some words that would illustrate just how not attractive this woman was.
Regardless, my enuendo's were sucsessfull, and I was making love to this fuggly woman on a muddy bed in the middle of the woods. The whole time I kept saying your not my wife, why am I having sex with you. Then I rolled her over and there was somehing growing out of her butt. Like a small bean plant or something. I woke up sweating. What does this dream mean?
A dream like this I know means something because I had no control, like I was watching, and I would never sleep with another woman, even in my dreams, and I dont want to sound vain, but a dog would have ran from this woman, she looked like the old crone picture you see in occult philisophy books.

[NightBathen]

oh poop :( I didnt realize that I posted this in the wrong thread, it was supposed to be in the sleeping mind. hey can I copy it and move the dream with the ugly lady to "the sleeping mind" ? sorry guys, im only human :fpcsucks