Kabbalah experience??

[Illyandra]

Just curious as to those whom have written replies in the threads so far and what kind of knowledge you have of the Kabbalah.

~~my little ripple in the pool of thought~~

[loopy]

I chose the "Hey I know what the Tree of Life looks like" cause Revelation attached that pic to the thread. :) This is really the first I'm hearing of the Kabbalah. Before this I'd just read that it was a Jewish Mystical system.

[Dagda Moon~Lily]

I agree with loopy....I know what the tree looks like because I've seen tarot spreads based on it. But beyond that....I haven't the foggiest clue! ;) I've also heard the word "kabala"....but don't ask me about the spelling....I've seen it with a K, Q and C....with and without multiple B's and L's! lol

This is all new to me also. :D

[Wyrdsister]

I would say I understand the basics of Kabballah (I too have seen many different spellings; keeps things interesting ;)) I have read a few books, the first ones being Ellen Cannon Reed's books which look at Kabballah from a very pagan perspective. My background in Judaism ... really isn't. ;) So my knowledge of Kabballah from its true background is sadly lacking.

Still happy about this forum!

Wyrdsister

[Kilderan]

Ok, now to clarify my stance on guru :). I am not the full blown Rabi thingy. I am an individual that started my magickal life with the book "The Magus". If anyone is familiar with this book, it is an ancient tome :). It was very dificult to understand at the age of 16, and over the years I have established a clear understanding of the subject and practice there of. However, I am also refrence dependent. I could probobly answere alot of questions, but honestly, the Qabalah is something to be experienced, not read, and you have to start somewhere :) so read up :). I will say this, I do not believe it to be dangerous. The Qlithoph (wrong spelling but basic phonetic :)) IS dangerous. It is the reverse of the Etz Hiem, or tree of life. Anyone that begins the path will discover more information than they may want to have, that is the only danger :) I know of from persoanl experience :).

Kilderan

[Revelation]

What on earth has THe MAgus got to do with the study of Kabbalah?

You *do* realize you're putting yourself quite in the hot seat with the guru business, I hope. I'm something of a relentless student, Master.

And, they are the "qlippoth", which is certainly not phonetically the same as the "qlithoph".

[mol]

Hmm. I dont think I have anything to add....except I would agree with Revelation and the hot seat....

[Kilderan]

Well what Can I say, I tend to gravitate to the hot seat, and thank you for correcting my spelling on the qlippoth :). If you read the magus you would understand that the magus is a Qabalistic text of profound portions. Where do you think Crowley got most of his info for his tables and such? The Magus gave Crowley his "start" as it were :). Read it agian, you will see more Qabalah there than you can imagine, and if you do not, read it agian till you do. It is almost 100% qabalistic. It is the Magickal side of the Qabalah, not the dogma side. :).

Kilderan

[Revelation]

I see.

So you are basing your knowledge of Kabbalah on the teachings of, ahem, Crowley?

One cannot venture into the "magical" side of the Kabbalah without a thorough understanding of its dogma. One cannot see the moon without the illumination from the sun. One cannot reach CHokmah without first movig through Binah.

But, of course, you knew that, because you're a guru.

[Silver Venus]

Im really sorry to say this but.. feel I have to now..

I was really excited when Semele said this forum was going to happen, I am interested in the kabbalah mainly from a Alchemist/Tarot perspective and to expand my knowledge on magical systems.... but now Im not so excited being in it...

Thanks for this poll Illy ~ I voted "Hey I know what the Tree of Life looks like" and that shouldnt discriminate me but I feel it does....theres to much sarcasim and too much cleverness here (and not in a nice way)... if this is what the kabbalah is all about ~ bitchyness about having to know Jewish, Juddasim, spell correctly etc ~ Im not sure if I want to learn it ..well not here anyway...

Sorry if this dampens the subject for some but Ive been feeling this way for a few days now and felt I had to vioce my opinions...

[bananabrain]

i appreciate that you're interested in the kabbalah from a non-jewish perspective, but it is hebrew and the jewish ingredients that differentiate kabbalah from other mystical/magical/theurgical systems, although they have a great deal in common, just as students of kabbalah have found commonality in sufism, tantra and the tao - mystics tend to agree. consequently, it is perfectly possible, as far as i can see, to approach these mystical concepts via tarot and alchemy, using the non-kabbalistic systems that use them. likewise, kabbalah can and does cope without tarot and alchemy. now, hermetic traditions like the GD have done a lot of work on the correspondances, which i find very interesting/valid - in fact i'm thrilled that they do this stuff, because i think it's really important on a very deep level. however, they've also taken the trouble with the hebrew end of things. this does not change the fact that IMHO, as far as kabbalah is concerned, you cannot run before you can walk. this means some knowledge of its jewish and hebrew context.

with regards to sarcasm, i don't think i've been sarcastic. i'm sorry if you think i have been. kabbalah isn't about bitching, but it *does* require linguistic precision, because firstly it deals with hugely complicated concepts by making use of the unique qualities of the hebrew language and secondly, as mol has pointed out elsewhere, the difference between a 1 and a 0 can be crucial to something working or not working. in the 'burning times', thousands of people were burned for witchcraft because, among other things, people didn't do their translations of our sacred texts properly. similar sloppiness has contributed to the murder of hundreds of thousands of my people over the last 2000 years. personally, i think that out of respect for those people, we should make an effort to at least spell things correctly.

the sefirot system does not exist in limbo. for this reason, i've outlined what i consider to be important stuff if you're coming at it from a jewish point of view. all i am trying to do is get people to take this stuff seriously, because i do. i have to. my life is structured around this stuff, whether i like it or not, because i'm jewish. i only talk about it jewishly because that's what i know. however, i do know that other people, in particular dr viviane crowley, who has unimpeachable academic and traditional credentials, have done some solid work on this for use by people who aren't jewish and wish to incorporate it into their life. this doesn't mean you can just read a book and off you go - but her work is probably a good place to start. it's a big commitment, which is not to be taken on lightly; you will encounter a great deal more difficulty on this path than you think you are seeing here, believe me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[mol]

Originally posted by Revelation
I see.

So you are basing your knowledge of Kabbalah on the teachings of, ahem, Crowley?

One cannot venture into the "magical" side of the Kabbalah without a thorough understanding of its dogma. One cannot see the moon without the illumination from the sun. One cannot reach CHokmah without first movig through Binah.

But, of course, you knew that, because you're a guru.


I think Crowley did great work.

I do agree with one needing a total understanding to get the broadest picture, but I think some of us are missing the point of this forum in a way.

Some here may be seekers in search of total knowledge of the Kabbalah. That will not happen here. Period. It takes a whole lot more than just discussion in a forum like this to firmly grasp the Kabbalah.

Some here may just want a few questions answered. That is fine. And we CAN do that here.

Some are just curious. And in my opinion, that is fine too. Maybe it will spark a fire within someone to go forward with the little knowledge gained here and take on the full study of the Kabbalah.

With all that said, I want to invite everyone to participate here with the discussion. Ask questions (even if you think they are silly.)

The only stupid question is the one that was never asked.

[Revelation]

Some here may be seekers in search of total knowledge of the Kabbalah. That will not happen here. Period. It takes a
whole lot more than just discussion in a forum like this to firmly grasp the Kabbalah.

Some here may just want a few questions answered. That is fine. And we CAN do that here.

I quite agree.

My only contention is with the guru gent. In my life, when such claims are made, I want those claims verified. If I'm going to be learning and studying with one who claims such knowledge, I want to see proof that such knowledge exists.

I like to believe that people actually have the experience they sy they have, and most people seem to be honest about that. When studying with people, I want to know.

The rest of us have made no such claim. I have no contention with anyone else here.

[bananabrain]

as you say, mol, there are no stupid questions. however, in reference to this statement:


I like to believe that people actually have the experience they say they have, and most people seem to be honest about that. When studying with people, I want to know.


i heartily agree.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[mol]

I can understand the challenge of the guru statement. Anyone making a statement of that magnitude is asking for a challenge in my opinion.

I am referring to the fact that most people seem scared to ask questions in here because they think they will be belittled. Or be told "You cant understand this because..."

[moonmorgan]

My brother has a small book on the Cabala/Qaballah/Kabbalah/Kabala/Cabballah etc....

I took one look at it, skimmed a couple pages and put it down. It looks as if its written in chinese. (No offense to any chinese people out there)

Does anyone know of a VERY simple book on Kabbalah?

[Revelation]

I'll do you one better:

Hang out here, read the posts, and ask questions. Better than any overly simplified book on Kabbalah. :)

[bananabrain]

mol: i don't intend to belittle anyone. however, if i think someone is saying something misleading, i'll pick 'em up on it - and that's as it should be. if anyone wants to actually do the reading and the research and try and understand what is, frankly, post-doctoral stuff (at least if you're jewish) then there are some very good places to start - gershon scholem, as i've said, for the jewish end and probably *viviane* crowley if you're interested in it from a correspondence point of view. in this area, you need stuff explained by people who already understand it, the same way as if you want to learn brain surgery, you're going to need a teacher - you can't just pick it up by reading the books. this is soul surgery, if you like. so, i maintain that i should be allowed to say: "you can't understand that ....*because you haven't done the necessary background reading and research*". the gaining of knowledge is an active process not a passive one. one of the things that right-thinking people detest about the so-called 'kabbalah learning centre' is their practice of selling people $200 copies of the entire Zohar so that they can 'absorb' its mystical energy by contemplating its pages every day, *even though they can't read the language on the pages*. i mean, grrrrrr. text is not a mandala. there is perfectly good meditation on individual letters and words, BUT you need to know what it is you're looking at. i don't mind trying to help people that want to know x or y, but i have neither the time nor the inclination to spoonfeed people - i'm sorry if that sounds horrid, but i think if you're really interested in it, you'll go do some reading and then ask questions based on that. so i think the thread that rev's just started is probably not a bad idea. here's a good place to start if you can't afford a book:

http://www.inner.org/HEBLETER/HEBLETRS.HTM

the letters of the alef-bet are the building blocks of this entire system, the 1 and 0 if you prefer ;) .

b'shalom

bananabrain

[moonmorgan]

I checked out the webpage, and I learned a lot. Thanks. I had no idea that Kabbalah had anything to do with Judaism. My dad is Jewish.

I will also take the advice of Revelation, thanks.

[bananabrain]

... of the beardier end of it. and i don't necessarily endorse their political views, either. but they do know their stuff!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Armitage]

I know a little, have been studying angels and angelic lore lately, and have friends that are into studying different kinds of mysticism. That's about it.

[Illyandra]

Sorry for the misunderstanding!!!!

[Revelation]

Illyandra,

I truly do not believe that Silver Venus was being at all sarcastic to you when she said thanks for this poll and I dont think she was including you among the bitchiness. I think the poll was a good idea. Silver Venus was upset by some things that BB and I said, but I Think that got itself worked out. She wasn't pointing fingers at you.

You have been a great asset to this forum and I hop you will continue to share youe experience with us!

[Silver Venus]

Yeah, Im really sorry Illy, :( I was truely thanking you for starting the poll because I thought it was fun and wanted to state that ~ I wasnt being sarcastic at all.
I am sorry if I have offended and upset you ~ but please believe that these werent my intentions at all.

I didnt want to offend or upset anyone ~ thats why I didnt name any names (except your Illy ~ because those comments werent directed at you). Maybe I should of started a new thread but I didnt want to highlight the problems I felt anymore...

I would like to applogise to everyone for rocking the boat ~ I do respect and value everyone here aswell as the Kabbalah.
Thank you BB, Rev and Mol for clearing everything up ~ I hope you guys dont mind if I carry on learning here?

In :heartthro & :sunny:
Silver

[bananabrain]

we have all had a timely reminder to a) respect each other's level of knowledge and b) keep the language moderate and precise. sv - it is not up to me mol or rev to 'mind'. you don't need anyone's approval (even mine, hur hur hur) - all i was trying to do was to clarify various assumptions. illy, i hope you're OK too. i think this is a tough area even without ground rules for discussion.

so.... everyone's ok, nobody's talking shite any more and we can move on to the studying. i think i'll start a new thread on a particular topic.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Silver Venus]

Huraaayy!! Thanks BB, I feel like a weight has been lifted of my shoulders....& I would like to appologise again for any hurt or annoyance caused.
Blessed Be

[Illyandra]

I am referring to the fact that most people seem scared to ask questions in here because they think they will be belittled. Or be told "You cant understand this because..."

I think Mol hit it on the nose, and I can understand your frustration Silver Venus. I'm sorry for misunderstanding the point you were trying to make.

I have been a lot quieter in here than I'd originally intended to be because I seem to constantly mispeak myself, say one thing and mean another, ....so I am mostly lurking, reading, studying other materials, and learning. I guess I feel like a little kid in the midst of a group of adults carrying on a conversation that is way over my head.

Not so much the redirection when I'm not quite pointed in a good direction of thought, that is always helpful and welcome! But guys, have you reread some of the posts in here?? I think the poll shows that a majority of the people wandering into the discussions do not understand where this is coming from or why. I know you are trying to break it down and explain the what, where, when, and why of the Kabbalah.

That has always been the big question for me, "why?" I frustrated many a sunday school teacher with that one syllable, and it still eats away everything I read. I hated the answers the ss teachers always gave me, "Why? Because the Bible says it is so."

I will try to ask more questions to maybe help clarify what is being said so I don't feel like have been lately (the child eavesdropping...lol).

Again, SV I am sorry to have misunderstood you....
~~Illy~~

[Silver Venus]

Thats ok hun :) Im so glad we have cleared everything up (I was a bit worried there...) and got everything out in the open.
I'd also like to thank you because I feel you hit the nail on the head for me too ~
"I feel like a little kid in the midst of a group of adults carrying on a conversation that is way over my head."

Thats how I was feeling and why I felt I had to say something..I was afraid to ask questions too but realise now I was just been too sensitive and childish and let this curb my reasoning... but I also feel that all that had to be aired and discussed so we can get on with asking questions, learning and discussing! :D (jogging on the spot raring to go now!)
Im away this weekend, so prepare yourselves for lots of questions and thoughts on Monday ;)

Bright blessings to all

[bananabrain]

I also feel that all that had to be aired and discussed so we can get on with asking questions, learning and discussing!
i agree! so, off we go. we do have to have something to discuss....

incidentally, illy: i think the entry-level question issue, if i may call it that, is really a way to try and ensure that people are approaching it in the right way and with an attitude that will get 'em somewhere. personally, i would tend to think that if one bounces people around a bit it will sort out the serious student from the dilettante and wannabe.

i think the "what where when and why" approach is an excellent one, which is why i've recommended reading the gershon scholem. it *won't* answer your questions, but it is likely to make you ask different ones. the more knowledge you have, the more exciting the questions will be for you. of course, 'why' is terribly important. it is precisely *because* sunday school teachers don't know how to answer it that people get so turned off traditional religions. we have exactly the same problem. in judaism (and probably in christianity, but it's not my strong point) there are an awful lot of commentators that will tell you 'why the text says it is so' at least in their opinion - but in judaism, because it's essentially a legal system, we recognise that it *is an opinion* not a hard-and-fast dogmatic FACT. if you look at a page of Talmud this is precisely the terms in which it is discussed: "we have been taught: 'you shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk' why is this? some say 'because it is unnecessarily cruel' others say 'it was a practice of the canaanites' whereas rabbi thingie ben wossname says in the name of a bloke he met down the pub 'it is to teach us not to use heavy sauces in our cooking' etc etc" sometimes we don't know, but the important thing is the principle that is also included to resolve the famous argument between the rival rabbinical schools of hillel and shammai -

"these and those [ie both] are the words of the Living G!D"

in other words, you're both right, it just depends how you look at it. this isn't by any means an 'anything goes' philosophy, but it does teach us that it's not about getting an answer, exactly, but about asking the right question - not saying 'true or false' but saying 'in that case, what shall we make for dinner?'. rabbi jonathan sacks, the soi-disant 'chief' rabbi of the UK states it thus: "the Torah is not an answer to the question 'does G!D exist?' but rather 'how shall we live?'". i hope this isn't too roundabout a way of explaining it. personally, i always say that a jewish teacher that gives a straight answer is generally avoiding the question!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Revelation]

I also want to make a comment about my osition in all of this.

I remember when I first came to study this topic how *incredibly* overwhelmed I was. so much so that even the basic, basic books made no sense. Kabbalah made about as much sense to me as Sanskrit. But I really wanted to "get it". so I plugged on. And as I think I mentioned somehwereh else, Kabbalah is such a holistic system that the more you read, regardless of what you think you're internalizing (or not internalizing) all of sudden things start to make sense. And when that happens, you finally get your momentum, and then you re-read those beginner text and BAM! AHA!

Think of Kabbalah as having a really steep learning curve. REALLy steep :p

but with regrd to myself--let me be honest. I am here not so much to teach as to learn. Part of the way I learn is to share my thoughts and ideas and then have others challenge them. This is shy I chose to moderate this forum. Not because I had all this great wisdom I was dying to impart, but because I wanted to gain additional knowledge, and for, that happens through conversation. So if I pick apart something you say, Illy, it isn't me be critical of you or thought process---thats me saying, "Ah, but what about this..." my mind turning, analysing, making connections. "Getting it". You just happened to be my lucky jumping point ;)

I realize that some of the conversations here have been very complex. But if you read them, you'll also notice that Mol, BB, and I challenge each other, too. You may think *you're* a kid eavesdropping on an adult conversation, but that "adults" here are just kids in grown-up clothing ;)

The nature of this subject matter is such that its not always possible to keep the converstion on "entry level"--at least for me, which is why I imagine its a terrible subject to write a book on. Where do you start? Everything is so intimately connected to everything else, that you have to understand the whle system to figure out the parts...but its a catch 22, because you cant do that until you understand the parts!

Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that while I don't think anyone is intentionally making the conversation complicated, it has a tendency to get that way. Especially because even those witha bit more background in this area want to be challenged too. But don't be afraid to ask quesitons. And don't be afraid to comment on something someone else said. That's how this stuff works. IF you think I'm wrong, say so!

this is a challenging system. It isn't something we discuss politely. We have to be willing to take some hits, take some critical thoughts from others. But its all for the better.

Its all good, homey.

[SylverStar]

I voted I know waht the tree of life looks like. I've only ran across mentions of Kabbalah in my other books and studies but never really study the subject itself. I familar sorta with the tree of life and the chakras (thats Kabbahlistic right?). I would be interested participating in a lessons thread on it though.

[AmbivalentMirage]

I've also heard the word "kabala"....but don't ask me about the spelling....I've seen it with a K, Q and C....with and without multiple B's and L's!

Okay... I will save EVERYONE a whole lot of heartache and strife now.

ANY word relating to ANYTHING Jewish can be spelled ENDLESS ways. ;)

Examples:
kabbalah, kabalah, kabballah, kaballah, cabala, cabbala, caballa, cabballa, qabbalah, quabbalah, qabbala, qabala... (I won't go on)
Hanukkah, Hanukah, Chanukkah, Chanukah, Hanukka, Hanuka, Chanukka, Chanuka, Chanuqa, Hanuqqa (...it's riddiculous)

Reason? Transliteration, my friends. Hebrew letters don't match English letters very well sometimes... so, while my my Hebrew first name is: Daleth-Nun-Yod-Yod-Aleph-Lamed... I've seen it spelled: Daniyyel, Danijel, Danijjel, Daniyel, and many other variations. ;)

Just a useful fact if you ever want to study anything Jewish: Remember the pronounciation and relating words so you can later recognize the word spelled in a different manner. ;)

[Xander67]

well I have read books and studied Hebrew Qaballa from a Rabbi in NYC, (i miss class i havent had a chance to go)

[Starfly]

I have not been studying Qabalah for long yet, but so far I have found it to be absolutely fascinating. For me, it has helped to explain so many things that I had experienced and yet I couldn't find anything to bring all these things together and connect them until I started reading some of Dion Fortune's books. Currently, I'm just about finished reading "The Mystical Qabalah" by her and will soon start reading Gareth Knight's book on "A Practical Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism". So far, I've found Fortune's book to be fairly user-friendly, though I have found myself having to re-read certain passages before what she was trying to say would finally sink in. Since I'm currently in college majoring in physics, it's amazing so far just how much stuff correlates between the two fields. Just comparing the "Big Bang" theory with the way the Qabalah explains the formation of the universe was very enlightening to me.

Thanks for posting the poll! :)

[Aequitas]

eh, if someone tells you they are a Guru, they're lying. But, since I've written a good deal on the subject, I chose that option anyways. :eyeroll:

Too bad petty arrogance ruins things. It is a neat poll though. :)

[Xander67]

one of the wonderfull things about it, is that no one ever stops learning, with things changeing , and the winds constantly blowing on the TOL, its always a new expierence even for the most adept! :)

[Zander770]

whelp, fellow cabalists, i, ahhhh . . . i THINK we'd best get some books, study groups, &c goin' and fast!

naw . . . (well???) the qaballa (it's spelled "w/a 'K'" when one's speaking of the "literal [hebrew] kaballah, &c, "'yuoi'!") and: it's pretty darned IMPORTANT in the Study & Practice of Magick, ya know?

i (think) i began learning the alphabet w/the B.O.T.A. (altho it might have been g.:.d.:.--were only talking about a three- five-year difference . . . in MY life!) but, "I" made index cards out (plus got a "biggish" Tree of Life" glyph from the b.o.t.a., PLUS drew many, Many MANY Trees and painted them--yes, myself!- in all the "scales" (the King's, the Queen's, the Emperor or Prince, and the Empress or Knave Scales) et al., but . . .

it was Great Fun, or . . . i wouldn't have readily Done It All, i suppose! but:

the index cards were "simple": i had calligraphy pens of the Old "nib" style and indian ink (now you can buy markers shaped as to write correct hebrew letters) and i--say, for Number Nine--9--YOD

i'd draw that in the upper-right hand corner then #9/The Hermit beneath that, then; the Value (10) and Meaning ("Hand") & Power ("Y","I") then . . . additions, like:

Color: Yellow-Green later on in . . . whatever color pen, but along with the Tree of Life glyphs (with the Ten Sephoths and 22 Paths connecting them . . . i also got WAAAAaaaaaay into aleister crowley--who's a GENIUS in the qaballa, gemantra, EVERYTHING! but . . .

they're a lot of "tricks" you can learn, too . . . "memory-type" Tricks, like . . . in order to find out, easily and fast, which particular Tarot key belongs upon which Path, just ADD ELEVEN to the Key's Number (e.g., #9/The Hermit "rests" along the TWENTIETH Path (9 + 11 = 20)--connecting the FORTH Sepheroth--Chesed/Mercy--and the SIXTH Sepheroth--Tipareth/Beauty, &c . . .


Demon Est Deus Inversus = "the devil is god inverted."
(--W.B. Yeats' Golden Dawn order motto; 7 March 1890)

[Aequitas]

lol, we need to get off this 'proper spelling of QBLH' kick. ;)

[Aspasia Sariel]

I originally voted back when there was a Kabbalah forum, but never posted...must've thought I did...

I guess over all this time, I think I would have to say industrious student, but at the time it was the understand the basics. Qabala is the core of my spirituality now, although for some time I approached it more scholarly than in practice.

I would really enjoy having more discussions on the subject, as well.

Warm Regards,

[Xander67]

actually, I know of a Jewish Rabbi who does spell it with a Q... I dont get hung up on the spelling, but i like the Q,

[Zander770]

I originally voted back when there was a Kabbalah forum, but never posted . . . I would really enjoy having more discussions on the subject, as well. Warm Regards,

what happened to that forum, anyway? (i'd certainly participate in a qaballa forum, here . . .)

have you read lon milo duquette's the chicken qaballa, yet? (i've not . . . but; next month . . . ???) i've heard only Great Critiques regarding it!

(dion fortune, circa 1908, g.:.d.:. photo, below . . .)

[Aspasia Sariel]

I think that's how it was spelt in the forum...I could be wrong, it was a while's back....

I've heard a lot of reviews about Chicken myself, but I haven't had the chance to read it yet. I go through books about 3,4 at a time. I'm currently reading some of Dion Fortune's "fictional" works, The Sea Priestess, umm the Demon Lover, Garden of Pomegranates (which I always start and restart and never finish)...

Maybe if we all found a book that most of us haven't read, we could have little book study here in the forum? I could definitely use the kick in the pants to keep up my studies.

[MoonAnu]

My best friend is a kabbalist and from him I've learned the basics, borrowed a few books. It's not for me but it's definately interesting. :)

- Merryck

[Starfly]

what happened to that forum, anyway? (i'd certainly participate in a qaballa forum, here . . .)

I must agree; I think it would be wonderful to have an actually forum here just for Qabalah (or however everyone spells it). Since that's what I'm currently studying (though I only know the basics so far, having read Dion Fortune's "The Mystical Qabalah") that would be an invaluable resource to have. Has anyone here read Gareth Knight's "A Practial Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism"? That's what's next on my list to start reading - I've got a copy of it that has both volumes put into a single book.

[lefty]

a way of using the great names to create a reality may not be the best explanation .but hey } in fact next Thursday the 28th is going to be a marshal trite now that Mars is so close to reconsecrate and charge marshal talismans , mostly from greater key .
I will use tetragramaton in the proper way for the sign of Virgo that would be Hi-He Ye Aa and Hi He Ve Ya and Di Ae Ne Ia , around the triangle , go to the south , create my marcobah with H V Y at Kether .

breathing meditation of water call in Elul as other and Samael and Phaleg a few others and make my connections stronger . ask a few questions , make a few request .

but this is the last time Mars will be this close for 60,000 years
so whats the topic ? were do we start ?

[Marchosias]

Out of pure curiousity...why aren't you guys spelling God with the "o"?

[lefty]

Out of pure curiousity...why aren't you guys spelling God with the "o"?
ok how would you spell God ? and conform with English language ?

[luna rising]

I feel like I am jumping in in the midst of a heated debate, so sorry if I am being a buttinsky.

I studied the Kaballah for ten years, in a collaborative study of ceremonial magick. I made all the note cards, studied the flame alphabet untill it was burned on the back of my eyelids. I read VOLUMES, and painstakingly executed memorized rituals. But it left me feeling very unsatisfied, and sometimes more than a little lost (I have always been a solitary practitioner). If I made one wrong movement, or uttered a slight mispronunciation, I felt that the ritual or meditation had been lost. I think that for some folks, Kaballah and high magick is the only way there is. But I also think that it has to already be inside you, from another life, from ancestry. I hate to use the old right brain/left brain thing, but that's it is how it comes across to me. Some people are really brilliant at Trig, others write lovely poems.

On the other hand, some of the things I learned consequentially while doing my Kaballah studies are INVALUABLE to me now that I am on a different path. I use the Rose Cross and Sephirotic correspondences when making amulets and talismans, I meditate on the Tree, and Kabbalistic interpretations are my main influence in Tarot readings. Plus I like to show off when I watch "Pi" with my husband :smoke:

I do agree with an earlier post: anyone who claims to be a true Kaballah guru is most likely full of dookey. But I really hope this discussion keeps going . . . I would love to talk and maybe even have a jovial argument or two. And I might get flamed for this, but I think the Cicero's book "A Walk on the Tree of Life" (I think that's the right title - I loaned my copy out years ago and have not seen it since) is a good place to get the VERY basics of Kaballah and the Tree of Life.

Kat

[Theres]

ok how would you spell God ? and conform with English language ?

G O D

[lefty]

ok first I'm not in any heated debate .
I don't care how you spell God .
but let me just say if you get into a debate over "O" verses "o" wow ! may I suggest grounding and centering .

I know after a good solar ritual with a borneless ritual I get annul to but come on people .
people use to kill each other over such sillyness.

[mol]

ok first I'm not in any heated debate .
I don't care how you spell God .
but let me just say if you get into a debate over "O" verses "o" wow ! may I suggest grounding and centering .

I know after a good solar ritual with a borneless ritual I get annul to but come on people .
people use to kill each other over such sillyness.
People still kill each other because of such silliness.

[lefty]

People still kill each other because of such silliness.
Thank you Mol for showing what I meant by annul .
I'm from the Midwest thats how we talk , I hope you're childish pun can except us simple folk .
or we can get into potato pototo thing wouldn't that be a waste of time

[Theres]

i can't imagine what you're going on about lefty. i'm perfectly grounded and centered (feeling quite well, thank you very much), nor am i interested in a debate over spelling. ("O" vs "o"? wtf???)
you asked, i answered.

maybe a hot bath will help, or some herb tea.

[mol]

Thank you Mol for showing what I meant by annul .
I'm from the Midwest thats how we talk , I hope you're childish pun can except us simple folk .
or we can get into potato pototo thing wouldn't that be a waste of time
Childish pun? I don't see a pun in use in my post. You ssaid people 'use' to kill because of differences in religion (spelling of the word God) and I said they still do for clarification sake.

Oh, and the differing pronunciations of the word potatoe do not change the spelling.

[lefty]

i can't imagine what you're going on about lefty. I'm perfectly grounded and centered (feeling quite well, thank you very much), nor am i interested in a debate over spelling. ("O" vs "o"? wtf???)
you asked, i answered.

maybe a hot bath will help, or some herb tea.


first greenman ,
you really should try reading post before commenting on them , but to help in your understanding , a post was sent to me say "why do you spell God with o .
does this help you understand my post ?

but I don't understand why you felt it was an attack on you ? or anyone really .
do you feel ever post is directed to you ? hmm do you feel insulted by others opinion ? can't see why you're so upset at my saying it really doesn't matter if you use caps or lower case .

but if theres a pious contest well that can be funny to watch .

[lefty]

Childish pun? I don't see a pun in use in my post. You said people 'use' to kill because of differences in religion (spelling of the word God) and I said they still do for clarification sake.

Oh, and the differing pronunciations of the word potatoe do not change the spelling.
I know it does not change the spelling but without using the fenetic you wouldn't understand the meaning would you , I mean if I post potato potato would you have understood ?

but thanks anyway and yes your clever .

[Theres]

maybe YOUR confusion stems from the fact that the question was "why aren't you guys spelling God with the "o"?"

care to go back and try again?

[lefty]

maybe YOUR confusion stems from the fact that the question was "why aren't you guys spelling God with the "o"?"

care to go back and try again?


What I care for green man is not getting into a stupid pissing match over NOTHING with either you or Mol. so why are you still at this ? are you lonely ? can't you see how ridiculous the argument is ?

[Theres]

clueless! :geez:

[lefty]

clueless! :geez:


clueless? GOOD now we can discus important things other then caps . got anything ? but first I think you and I should stop and do a lesser banishing to get over it ok ?

[Theres]

apology accepted.

(perhaps NOW we can get back on topic?)

[mol]

What I care for green man is not getting into a stupid pissing match over NOTHING with either you or Mol. so why are you still at this ? are you lonely ? can't you see how ridiculous the argument is ?
Well, the unfortunate part of this situation is that you are the one who attempted the 'insult assault' in the first place with your condescending attitude. However this seems to be taking a personal jab dive here in this thread so I will make this a warning.

Admin Mode

No more personal jabs or the thread will be closed. Stick to the original topic!

[lefty]

Well, the unfortunate part of this situation is that you are the one who attempted the 'insult assault' in the first place with your condescending attitude. However this seems to be taking a personal jab dive here in this thread so I will make this a warning.

Admin Mode

No more personal jabs or the thread will be closed. Stick to the original topic!


well I wasn't going to respond to this anymore but I'm curious Mol how did I insult assault by asking to drop the hole thing as unimportant ?how is trying to back out of a useless argument insulting ? you two are taking offense at nothing , you two are hanging on like girls , cant we just agree that you may use caps any were you like ?

really whats the problem ?

[lefty]

apology accepted.

(perhaps NOW we can get back on topic?)

LOL now thats better tho I think I want be here that long .

good luck

[Theres]

i'm gonna try this once more, because it actually could be relevant to the thread...

i'm not Jewish, so forgive me if i get this wrong. but it is my understanding that in Hebrew the sacred name of God must never be uttered. therefore many Jews will write G*d, or something similar.
apparently this confused Marchosias, who then asked why we aren't (note - are not) spelling God with an 'o'.
(my reply being in caps was purely random, and not significant in any way.)
and since this thread has dealt with the many misconceptions of the Qabala due to the problems of transliteration, Marchosias' question was valid and relevant.

i hope this is clear now?

[mol]

well I wasn't going to respond to this anymore but I'm curious Mol how did I insult assault by asking to drop the hole thing as unimportant ?how is trying to back out of a useless argument insulting ? you two are taking offense at nothing , you two are hanging on like girls , cant we just agree that you may use caps any were you like ?

really whats the problem ?
I will point out the condescension:

"but thanks anyway and yes your clever"
"I hope you're childish pun can except us simple folk"

Whats funny is because the original question of the spelling of God was most likely directed towards the folks using the !. As in G!D or G!d. It was not a question about capitalization, etc.

Back to topic. Lefty, if you have any more complaints about my actions then I suggest you direct them to me via PM or another admin.

[mol]

Exactly, Greenman. You read my mind. I have been wondering what the hell everyone was talking about.

[lefty]

i'm gonna try this once more, because it actually could be relevant to the thread...

i'm not Jewish, so forgive me if i get this wrong. but it is my understanding that in Hebrew the sacred name of God must never be uttered. therefore many Jews will write G*d, or something similar.
apparently this confused Marchosias, who then asked why we aren't (note - are not) spelling God with an 'o'.
(my reply being in caps was purely random, and not significant in any way.)
and since this thread has dealt with the many misconceptions of the Qabala due to the problems of transliteration, Marchosias' question was valid and relevant.

i hope this is clear now?
ok I see were you are wrong , in Hebrew the name YHVH is only uttered aloud in the month of April in the sign {not that they use signs ] of Aries .
God is just a title , its the great name thats not spoken they say Adonai any time but not YHVH .

[mol]

ok I see were you are wrong , in Hebrew the name YHVH is only uttered aloud in the month of April in the sign {not that they use signs ] of Aries .
God is just a title , its the great name thats not spoken they say Adonai any time but not YHVH .
*sigh*

No, Greenman is not wrong. A lot of Jewish folks here on the board spell God like this: G!d, G*d, and even G^D. If you have never seen this then I can understand the confusion, but it is a fact that many people use this naming convention either to show that they are of a Jewish path or for other Path-specific reasons.

[lefty]

Mol get over you're self , I have no complaints about you , I've bin on the defensive with you from the get go {another Midwestern term} if you wish to correct my grammar ? fine I think the deference was childish but not meant to insult you .
let exchange ideas not jabs is all I am saying .

now if the question was put correctly then thats defense would have got a answer . God is only a title , the name is YHVH that the Hebrew religion forbids the utterance but once a year not the ward God , in my mined you can spell it goD if you like .
but you know YHVH is only the name in Yesod the name in Keter is EHEIEH .

look Mol lets just stop nipping at each other OK?

[lefty]

*sigh*

No, Greenman is not wrong. A lot of Jewish folks here on the board spell God like this: G!d, G*d, and even G^D. If you have never seen this then I can understand the confusion, but it is a fact that many people use this naming convention either to show that they are of a Jewish path or for other Path-specific reasons.


I give up Mol if you think G"D is right ? then it is . now my question is thats in writing does it matter ? most people I know that sware but don't want to say God say GD .
but if you think I'm wrong on the forbidden name ? ask a rabbi

[mol]

Mol get over you're self , I have no complaints about you , I've bin on the defensive with you from the get go {another Midwestern term} if you wish to correct my grammar ? fine I think the deference was childish but not meant to insult you .
let exchange ideas not jabs is all I am saying .

now if the question was put correctly then thats defense would have got a answer . God is only a title , the name is YHVH that the Hebrew religion forbids the utterance but once a year not the ward God , in my mined you can spell it goD if you like .
but you know YHVH is only the name in Yesod the name in Keter is EHEIEH .

look Mol lets just stop nipping at each other OK?
:D

Get over myself? You see...this is where you get into trouble. You seem to have to inject snide comments when trying to get your point across. If you had left that out of your post I would have kindly obliged your suggestion of getting on with the conversation. The jabs have been coming from your side of the keyboard and I suggest that you read twice before posting, because I am the least of your worries here. Most folks wont take kindly to your techniques of condescension on this board.

Anyway, the way you see it...the use of the title God...is fine. But, not all folks see it your way. Remember that.

[lefty]

:D

Get over myself? You see...this is where you get into trouble. You seem to have to inject snide comments when trying to get your point across. If you had left that out of your post I would have kindly obliged your suggestion of getting on with the conversation. The jabs have been coming from your side of the keyboard and I suggest that you read twice before posting, because I am the least of your worries here. Most folks wont take kindly to your techniques of condescension on this board.

Anyway, the way you see it...the use of the title God...is fine. But, not all folks see it your way. Remember that.



mol get over youreself just means stop thinking I'm insulting you , why are you so fixated over this ?

[mol]

mol get over youreself just means stop thinking I'm insulting you , why are you so fixated over this ?
:) That's not exactly what 'Get over yourself' means. First of all, I am not mad, angry, upset, or anything on this side of the keyboard. I am showing that with the clever use of smilies... :) . Now, imagine me smiling and saying, my friend...don't use that phrase in that way, because lots of folks equate 'Get over yourself' as a derogatory remark. No big deal. I am just trying to help you understand that point.

Im fixated over this because I dont want to deal with tons of reported posts when you start moving across the board pissing people off because you are dropping remarks that sound like insults.

Perhaps this should continue via private message or email. In fact, if you want to continue our exchange then lets do it privately because we are highjacking this thread.

[lefty]

not everyone see it this way " yes I know that, thank you for pointing it out , in fact you're right , all the names are really exhalations and titles , even YHVH is really earth air fire and water , male and female .

Eheieh is a declaration of self awareness , I am therefore I am .

represent man knowing he is .
the Ain soph is No thing so really there are no names of God .

these are translation not my beliefs or ideas .

except or reject them as you will .

one more thing Qabala is not Jewish its European , Kabbalah is Hebrew .

there is a deference in them

[lefty]

ok what or who to believe .? for everyone !!

anything I post should not be excepted without question ok I have bin in Kabballah for only 35 years , I don't know everything so have a large peace of salt there to take with my post ,its what I do with yours .
if you don't agree ?ok fine

[Theres]

one more thing Quabbala is not Jewish its European , Kabbalah is Hebrew .

there is a deference in them

yes, there is.
and personally i am more interested in it's Hermetic concepts in relation to the tarot than in any deep rabbinical study. therefore i differentiate by using the term 'Qabala' both for clarity and respect.

[lefty]

sorry I'm just use to adding a u with a Q , .
yes greenman thats great , and I use the Kabbalah , old Hebrew . and we'll see some with a C . but we can still exchange ideas .

[Rain Gnosis]

ok I see were you are wrong , in Hebrew the name YHVH is only uttered aloud in the month of April in the sign {not that they use signs ] of Aries

I have two questions - the first is for you, lefty. The second is for those who spell God with an exclamation mark.

Lefty, 1. Why is YHVH only uttered in Aries

Anyone else, 2. Why do you spell God with an ! - I notice Greenman suggested that he thinks it's done because Jewish folk cannot utter the word God, however lefty explains that in Hebrew using the name YHVH, not the title God, is restricted. So, to anyone who uses G!d, why?

I may just end up emailing amberlaine about it as I know she uses the convention.

[Rain Gnosis]

"I" made index cards

Brilliant idea.

ADD ELEVEN to the Key's Number (e.g., #9/The Hermit "rests" along the TWENTIETH Path

Interesting.

[lefty]

I have two questions - the first is for you, lefty. The second is for those who spell God with an exclamation mark.

Lefty, 1. Why is YHVH only uttered in Aries

I may just end up emailing amberlaine about it as I know she uses the convention.

I'm not sure why they do this , I suspect tradition , in my thoughts its because thats the sign its spelled that way in the Hebrew mysticism . we are in Virgo now so its HHVY , and the mystic part came before or at the start of the religion , why not say it according to sign ? I don't know it mite have bin forbidden because the priest wanted it secret ? and just became tradition of respect ?

I'm sure Jews say God , I've heard them say hell and thats not any part of Judaism .

but I'm sure theres a faze in Hebrew for God bless you .

got you grain of salt ? Kaplan mite explains it better being a Rabbi and all . his books are good .

[lefty]

reading earlier post at the beginning some one got uppity over the Magus ? I see nothing wrong with , The Magus , or Barden , or Waitte , or Crowley there good authors and if your in magick they are vary good sources .

I like the squares in the Magus better then the Rosy cross method .
but thats me .

[Rain Gnosis]

Why does the spelling change because of the astrological sign?

Thank you for your insights by the way, this is fascinating discussion.

[lefty]

to give the twelve aspects of the name that are associated with them they are also creates the universe in the alinement's of the letters or reality if you will . the name of the month Virgo is Elul but using Western its Virgo it aligns with Zebulun in exodus , and Gad in numbers the house Health
its also alined by element H-fire H-earth V- air and Y-water

[lefty]

what is wrong with the Magus ? of Crowley or Waite ? or Barden ? I understand the negative of guru but whats wrong with those books or authors ? and you're tree is based on Al and not original Al moved two paths to Hod and Netzach to Malkhut so it would work out as rainbow in numerology .

[mol]

lefty, when you are replying to a specific post click the "reply w/quote" link at the bottom of the post you want to reply to. It will help the folks out that you are trying to converse with.

[lefty]

lefty, when you are replying to a specific post click the "reply w/quote" link at the bottom of the post you want to reply to. It will help the folks out that you are trying to converse with.


Thank you , I'll get it right soon or later .

I was referring to the criticism by Revelations , chewing on kild over the book The Magus .

[Rain Gnosis]

Thank you , I'll get it right soon or later .

I was referring to the criticism by Revelations , chewing on kild over the book The Magus .

Ah, I wonder if Revelations still visits us here at MW...

[lefty]

Ah, I wonder if Revelations still visits us here at MW...

one thing I've learned about authors like Crowley is they write in riddles , you have to think about it before you take it as fact , its always good stuff but can be misleading .
old saying in high magick a wise man can learn even from a fool .b ut to just give them no cretance ? silly

[mol]

one thing I've learned about authors like Crowley is they write in riddles , you have to think about it before you take it as fact , its always good stuff but can be misleading .
old saying in high magick a wise man can learn even from a fool .b ut to just give them no cretance ? silly
Riddles?

And no, Revelation has not been around here in a long while.

[lefty]

Riddles?

And no, Revelation has not been around here in a long while.
riddles , Al wrote " magick can only be done with the sacrifice of an innocent male child " thats a riddle, the Italian government thought it was killing of children they dug up an Island he was living on looking for bodies , but if you look deeper at what he said using Catholicism .
they believe that everyone is born with original sin so no ones innocent . they believe life starts at conception , so before the eggs split , male , he's talking about sperm , so hes really talking about masturbation . thats the answer to the riddle .

but people take it at its ward .
you have to look at what you read to make sense of it . high magick authers used traps like that to weed out the stupid .

[mol]

riddles , Al wrote " magick can only be done with the sacrifice of an innocent male child " thats a riddle, the Italian government thought it was killing of children they dug up an Island he was living on looking for bodies , but if you look deeper at what he said using Catholicism .
they believe that everyone is born with original sin so no ones innocent . they believe life starts at conception , so before the eggs split , male , he's talking about sperm , so hes really talking about masturbation . thats the answer to the riddle .

but people take it at its ward .
you have to look at what you read to make sense of it . high magick authers used traps like that to weed out the stupid .
:) I don't see that as a riddle. I see that as symbolism.

[Rain Gnosis]

:) I don't see that as a riddle. I see that as symbolism.

I think essentially you're using a different word but it means the same thing - if the symbolism isn't clear (as it isn't to many) then it's a riddle to determine what the symbol means. In other words, don't take his writing at literal face value.

[luna rising]

Hey everybody - I posted earlier but I think that I had picked the wrong time to jump in. In any case, I never got into Crowley. I could never appreciate the riddles . . . I wanted to learn, and that is why I read. In my opinion, leading people to create their own truths like Crowley did can cause more stupidity in the long run than what it prevents, especially when you are not prepared for the test. The problem is, Crowley was to Ceremonial magick much like what Jerry Garcia was to the Dead. Weird comparison, but let me explain myself.

I went to college shortly after Garcia died. All I saw was a bunch of neuvo hippies running around with "Jerry" shirts on. You ask them about their appreciation of the band, and they can't even name one other person that contributed. Same thing with Crowley - people want to learn about high magick, that is the first name they are drawn to, because that is probably the only name they have heard of. But if you are a beginner, in my opinion Crowley is the WORST place to start.

So I never wanted to learn from Crowley's school because there was always an undercurrent of arrogance there. Some will say that he deserves to be arrogant, but arrogance turns me off, and I thought I could learn just as much from other authors and practitioners. But to be fair, I have to say that I no longer practice ceremonial magick. Not for me, in the long run. I still continue a study of the Kaballah, but in more of a hobby-like way than as a serious student.

Kat

[lefty]

Hey everybody - I posted earlier but I think that I had picked the wrong time to jump in. In any case, I never got into Crowley. I could never appreciate the riddles . . . I wanted to learn, and that is why I read. In my opinion, leading people to create their own truths like Crowley did can cause more stupidity in the long run than what it prevents, especially when you are not prepared for the test. The problem is, Crowley was to Ceremonial magick much like what Jerry Garcia was to the Dead. Weird comparison, but let me explain myself.

I went to college shortly after Garcia died. All I saw was a bunch of neuvo hippies running around with "Jerry" shirts on. You ask them about their appreciation of the band, and they can't even name one other person that contributed. Same thing with Crowley - people want to learn about high magick, that is the first name they are drawn to, because that is probably the only name they have heard of. But if you are a beginner, in my opinion Crowley is the WORST place to start.

So I never wanted to learn from Crowley's school because there was always an undercurrent of arrogance there. Some will say that he deserves to be arrogant, but arrogance turns me off, and I thought I could learn just as much from other authors and practitioners. But to be fair, I have to say that I no longer practice ceremonial magick. Not for me, in the long run. I still continue a study of the Kaballah, but in more of a hobby-like way than as a serious student.

Kat
really ?

[Theres]

So I never wanted to learn from Crowley's school because there was always an undercurrent of arrogance there.

that is often the case with genius (unfortunately).
but do you refuse to listen to Mozart? or read Oscar Wilde? Andy Warhol? (for example).

[mol]

It's rare that someone can read Crowley and put aside their own insecurities. This is not a crit...it's just the plain old truth. Until I was able to 'get over myself' (eh, lefty) I was never able to be a 'pupil' of Crowley's.

I love Mozart.

[lefty]

[QUOTE=mol I was able to 'get over myself' (eh, lefty)


not even going to dust off my Crystal ball for this one ,
Mo you're a woman aren't you .

[luna rising]

It's rare that someone can read Crowley and put aside their own insecurities.


You know, I never really thought about it that way, but you are totally right.

And Greenman, you are right about the side effects of genius. I love Mozart - I'm pretty sure he was not human. :crazylaug

[mol]

not even going to dust off my Crystal ball for this one ,
Mo you're a woman aren't you .

Ugh, no.

[lefty]

Ugh, no.
you sure?

[mol]

you sure?
Quite. Ask my wife...or my two kids.

[9-2-2]

I've learned and practiced Kabbalah from only a handful of books, but I'm no guru-grand-master-guy-on-top-of-some-mountain. Despite all I know, I have MANY setbacks:

1) I don't even remember all the names of the Sephiroth, Paths, nor their symbology.
2) Since I am currently ill, and have lazily deemed myself to incapacitated to get off my fat booty and go to my bedroom to grab a reference, I will now state that - in my befuddled state - I vaguely even remember what Adam Kadmon (gasp!) is.
3) I will now be hunted down by the REAL students of Kabbalah, before I continue.
4) I am 90% fluent in American English, and 10% fluent in Idiocy. Hebrew? Latin? Greek? Egyptian? I'm way too stupid to be multilingual. I DO understand that the true essence lies in the original Hebrew, but I've never been any good at learning another language - very well evidenced by my D's and F's in German and Spanish in high school. But, I try.
5) I'm easily distracted. Thus, the blinds stirred in with the philosophy and workings stand well in the way. Only by hours of note-taking-death will glean anything for me. But hey, it's not supposed to be easy.

There. I have laid down my weaknesses, with all pure honesty, at your feet. I am prepared for lynching against my blasphemy. :)
And perhaps, with my humility, I may learn something beyond the scope of dusty tomes.

[lefty]

I've learned and practiced Kabbalah from only a handful of books, but I'm no guru-grand-master-guy-on-top-of-some-mountain. Despite all I know, I have MANY setbacks:

1) I don't even remember all the names of the Sephiroth, Paths, nor their symbology.
2) Since I am currently ill, and have lazily deemed myself to incapacitated to get off my fat booty and go to my bedroom to grab a reference, I will now state that - in my befuddled state - I vaguely even remember what Adam Kadmon (gasp!) is.
3) I will now be hunted down by the REAL students of Kabbalah, before I continue.
4) I am 90% fluent in American English, and 10% fluent in Idiocy. Hebrew? Latin? Greek? Egyptian? I'm way too stupid to be multilingual. I DO understand that the true essence lies in the original Hebrew, but I've never been any good at learning another language - very well evidenced by my D's and F's in German and Spanish in high school. But, I try.
5) I'm easily distracted. Thus, the blinds stirred in with the philosophy and workings stand well in the way. Only by hours of note-taking-death will glean anything for me. But hey, it's not supposed to be easy.

There. I have laid down my weaknesses, with all pure honesty, at your feet. I am prepared for lynching against my blasphemy. :)
And perhaps, with my humility, I may learn something beyond the scope of dusty tomes.


if you a a question people will try and answer it , but it sounds like you just want a hug and its ok .

which is it ?

[mol]

if you a a question people will try and answer it , but it sounds like you just want a hug and its ok .

which is it ?
Sounds like he/she is just telling us where he/she is coming from. Stop being a jerk.

[lefty]

. Stop being a jerk.[/QUOTE]
names again?

[mol]

lefty, you just got through questioning my manhood twice. So, you know what? I am through with your crap. Either tone your posts down to a respectable level or I will start toning them down for you. If that doesnt work...then I will ban you. I don't have time to babysit.

[lefty]

*non-purposeful content removed*

[Rain Gnosis]

There. I have laid down my weaknesses, with all pure honesty, at your feet. I am prepared for lynching against my blasphemy. :)
And perhaps, with my humility, I may learn something beyond the scope of dusty tomes.

Thanks for joining us (and welcome to the forum).

[9-2-2]

Not looking for a hug. Like most posts on this thread, I'm relating of my experience level. People will tend to get a better idea of where I stand if I show limits first. It simply shows where I stand. Though I originally didn't see this thread as a QA type, but more of what the title implies: Kabbalah Experience. Not Kabbalah FAQ, or Q&A. Of course, there is a chance I've made a mistake about what the topic is, even after reading every post in the thread...

No hostility intended. None accepted.

[mol]

Not looking for a hug. Like most posts on this thread, I'm relating of my experience level. People will tend to get a better idea of where I stand if I show limits first. It simply shows where I stand. Though I originally didn't see this thread as a QA type, but more of what the title implies: Kabbalah Experience. Not Kabbalah FAQ, or Q&A. Of course, there is a chance I've made a mistake about what the topic is, even after reading every post in the thread...

No hostility intended. None accepted.
No, you havent made any mistakes in the thread. Please disregard the disruption caused by that member.

[luna rising]

Welcome to the discussion, 922.

This is somewhat off topic, but I wanted to hear what people who know about Kaballah ahve to say about this. We all know Madonna went on a Kaballah kick, right? And we also know that she recently released a children's book, yes? Anyone know the name of one of the main characters?

Binah.

[Rain Gnosis]

I read some article yesterday about how she wrote a book and was inspired by the Kabalah. *shrugs*

[Theres]

interesting, that.

and speaking of interesting books, i LOVE the one in your title briar_rose!

[9-2-2]

My fiance and I had a humorous discussion the other day concerning Madonna, the Kabbalah, and the role-playing game Vampire: the Masquerade. If Madonna was a vampire, she'd be a Tremiere...

<Storyteller> "All of a sudden, Madonna bursts in with four Tremiere thugs..."
<Me> O_O "Look! It's a beautiful stranger!!"
<Storyteller> ~_~ "You die a terrible death. Moving on..."

^_~

[luna rising]

interesting, that.

and speaking of interesting books, i LOVE the one in your title briar_rose!


YAY!! A fellow Tom Robbins fan! You are the first one to point it out!

922 - I dunno, I think she would be a (I am going to spell this phoenitcally, as I have not played in YEARS) shah-me-say. Snakey.

My feelings on the character name, well, I am torn. I understand the symbolism she is going for, but I feel like she is abusing the power. I dunno how to word what I am trying to say. Like, how many people are you going to see in the bookstore checking out Kaballah books because Madonna thinks it is cool. You know? But, on the other hand, people should be checking out Kaballah info. Not neccesarily because it is "right," but because knowledge really is power. Blahbidy Blah. I am exhausted and rambling . . .

[Theres]

YAY!! A fellow Tom Robbins fan! You are the first one to point it out!

in fact, on other boards my handle is 'Alobar'! :)

[Chaka]

I learned a bunch of stuff about Kabbalah from this website: Kabbalah (http://www.booklists.net/encyclopedia/kabbalah.html)

[Seamus MacNemi]

The term Kabballah(regardless of spelling in English) comes from the Hebrew verb root
"L'kabel" meaning to recieve. It is the recieved wisdom of God, which, for the ancient Hebrew Prophets, was the medium of their knowledge. In many ways, it is Llike the Druidic Bull Dream which was the medium of revelation to Taleisen and as well Merlin'.
The Kabballah ,as it is known today , did not exist much before the eleventh century as a formal discipline in thinking. Then ,it was concieved in its present form by Moses DeLeon a Spanish/Jewish mystic from Cadiz.
Though present day thinkers claim that it existed with Moses on Mount Sainai, the actuality of its presentation in our history did not occur until probably the eleventh or twelvth century. Those are the approximate dates for its appearence in our world

[Pip_Sensei]

I have read the Lesser Key to Solomon if that counts.

[Seamus MacNemi]

How the hell can I accomplish anything if this damn system continually dismounts my posts when I ry to send them. I realize that my efforts are not popular or even considered important to some folk." BUT", they are important to me.
I just spent the last hour replying to the latest post on Kabballah and this system would not transmit my post. I know it's not my computer this time. :razz:

[JWill0ws]

....was taught by my Rabbi back home many many years ago. I have the old books, some new ones, and the tree of life tarot that is a bit hard to read.

Would love to brush up and learn more.

[Seamus MacNemi]

In my last (and undelivered) post I said that even among my Jewish relatives, The Kabballah is a controversial subject. Nobody is even sure exactly what it is or means.
The Talmudists regard it as a bit of pleasant mythology but hardly applicable to our lives.
The central focus in any Jewish household is the TORAH. that was given to Moses on Mt. Sainai. "That" and the TALMUD (STUDY), which is a compendium of commentary based upon the study of the TORAH. The study of TORAH requires a thorough knowledge
of the HEBREW language, of which many of those who would call themselves KABBALISTS often lack even the most fundamental rudiments.
There is a distinctively anti mystical attitude amongst those who are survivors of the Konzentrazion Kamps. Many regard the Kabballah as a detraction from the important matter of living in the LAW. Some see a preroccupation with mysticism as detrimental to the integrity of the community and a cause of insanity. In the past, Kabballists have been sources of great social difficulty and a source of antisemitic violence. Jewish Kabballists were regarded as dangerous heritics and excluded from the community.
Amongst the Hassidic followers of THE BAAL SHEM TOV it is said that any man who claims to be wise in the Kabballah is a fool, for to do so is to claim to know the mind of God and no man can know that.

[Seamus MacNemi]

This is an excellent site. Thanks :yourock:


Kabballah

[mol]

How the hell can I accomplish anything if this damn system continually dismounts my posts when I ry to send them. I realize that my efforts are not popular or even considered important to some folk." BUT", they are important to me.
I just spent the last hour replying to the latest post on Kabballah and this system would not transmit my post. I know it's not my computer this time. :razz:
If you are having problems posting then you need to report it in the problems forum.

[JWill0ws]

What I was taught was that one is not 'permitted' to learn the Kaballah unless one was male, part of the Yeshuvah, knows well the Talmud, and is in his 30's. This was per my Rabbi. Despite this, he taught a class to all who were willing to learn in for 16 year olds in hebrew school.

The theory behind this is due to the complications of the Kaballah - understanding it, I mean. In addition, Judaism in its orthodoxy is highly patriachal - so women were not 'permitted' to study the Talmud, let alone Kaballah text.

This is what I learned.

[Pip_Sensei]

Wasn't it also that only a first born son could learn it?

[Seamus MacNemi]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Meanwhile, Is there anything that I can do to retieve lost work? I put a lot of time and effort into some of my posts and I hate to lose them. I'd like to keep them for future reference purposes if for no other reason. That's especially true when I feel on a really good roll. :lol:

[Seamus MacNemi]

I studied at Rabbi Goldsteins Diaspora Yeshiva in Jerusalem and the rule there was that the only people who could study Kabballah were the the BAALE KRIA who where totally SHOMRE MITZVOT. It was not for BAALE TSHOOVA or GERIM.
There was some bit of confusion as to whether I was a GER or a BALL TSHOOVA
Because it was my grandmother on my mothers side that was Jewish. Though no one had converted to Christianity, my mother had attended church a few times just to see what it was like.

[JWill0ws]

I studied at Rabbi Goldsteins Diaspora Yeshiva in Jerusalem and the rule there was that the only people who could study Kabballah were the the BAALE KRIA who where totally SHOMRE MITZVOT. It was not for BAALE TSHOOVA or GERIM.
There was some bit of confusion as to whether I was a GER or a BALL TSHOOVA
Because it was my grandmother on my mothers side that was Jewish. Though no one had converted to Christianity, my mother had attended church a few times just to see what it was like.

Ok, even though I went to Hebrew school, born Jewish by mom and dad (in which their parents were Jewish, and so on), I am a bit lost (sorry) with your hebrew transliteration.

Mitzvot is 'good deed' roughly translated - so I am going to guess that you are stating that the people who could study are the 'pure or blessed' jews. Ones not of conversion and ones whose line can be traced by the blood of the mother. Am I correct? Also is Gerim - like goyim (non-jewish) or Goy?

Now the next question, since I was taught by a conservative Rabbi here in the states, is:

Is there a provision for decendants of the tribes? Such as Cohen or Levy? I was taught by tradition that these were the learned tribes and most likely to not only to study, but to teach.

Perhaps I am more confused than I should be.

[Seamus MacNemi]

The Torah makes one statement and one statement only. That statement is expressed in the terms of the TETRAGRAMATON, the four letter name of God. Einstein restated the Tetragramaton when he formulated his famous equation E=MC2. These days, those who aspire to true Kaballistic wisdom take up the study of physics. Much of the thinking in the Kabbllah is replicated in the STRING THEORY of physics.
I will offer, for your perusal, several texts, "The Dance of The Wu Li Masters", "Coincidance" and The "Zen of Being". Unfortunately, I do not at present , have any of these texts ready to hand so I cannot give you any further information beyond these titles. If any of you finds these texts, I would be interested in hearing of your experiences

[gypsyeyes]

I have read a book, but other than that I don't know a lot about it. I know that it's really big in Hollywood right now...all the craze.

[pupil]

In my opinion the best way to learn the Kabbalah is through good books on the subject ; that is if you possess a mercurial mind. (or know someone who can cut you through the initial mud.) The kabbalah's convoluted and definitive, but re-assuringly logical view of reality, or the universe, or physics, or health; or of its ordered, multi-dimentional, "distant but close" revelation of "fallen peoplekind" 's connection to an omni-present God, or beginning, or unfolding or evolution, is full of traps and dead-ends, like the one's found in many (or all) of the old recipes for making the Philosopher's stone in Alchemy, or indeed making Gold out of Lead, for that matter!
If you don't come at the Kabbalah from the right place, or through the best traditions of teaching (the Jewish tradition being but one) the whole thing might simply spin into a F****** mess of terminology and diagrams. You may think you know what you're talking about like some sort of parrot squawking, while the potential speculative power and practical applications of this great eschatological machine, will fly silently overhead like a squadron of angels (or souls)
Jewish people learn it in groups, studying it deeply, with enthusiastic group members going to see the "teacher" every now and then, who will give them peeps into the "ark" and encourage a particular approach etcetera. BUT THE KABBALAH BELONGS TO ANYONE WHO CAN USE IT AND UNDERSTAND IT. A loosely knit group may really not gain much. But who knows?
To know the Kabbalah you really have to own a sort of "clearance" which is attained through some sort of Initiation experience. But there are initiations and there are initiations. One candidate might learn a lot while a person who is unripe
may only think that he has learnt a lot and this latter scenario is a built in safety valve
hiding the true and hidden knowledge, which is veiled or protected from those who might darken the light, as it were. Self-initiation is a way to go, but as the Yahoo page
says, you have to be "feeling lucky" (in this epoch anyway)
The irony is that the "whole" truth of the Kabbalah is a 'simple' one; but you have to have eyes to see it. A person who comes to the Kabbalah or to any
"university" is usually one who is already spiritually evolved anyway, who will naturally
focus on the "truth", and not the distractions. Everyone gets to this kind of cross-roads
at some "time", at the other side of some "bridge", which will lead you to those peculiar life's circumstances which place you in the womb of it, welding every Sephiroth
to every atom in your physical, mental and astral being. To make gold, you have to have gold! Au Revoir.

[guhlitz]

Drive from within yourself and find the kabalah,
the only true cabbalists out there are from generations
of cabbala scholars who spend there entire lifes researching
documenting like numerical alchemists, encrypting the encryptions.
Inner-connected paths of energy.........
you knoew the tree?

[Merlinawakend777]

I have a version of it, i tried reading it, and thought eh not for me not yet anyways, I have much to learn before i am ready to read such text.

But I did understand a couple of things within it, such as the tree, it seemed to make since at the very least!

[guhlitz]

Oh yes, ; Sephiroth.....ready to learn a new language in the process?

[Xander67]

I have read a book, but other than that I don't know a lot about it. I know that it's really big in Hollywood right now...all the craze.
actually, alot of people in show biz are drawn to it... alot of celbs are well aware of thier relationship to the grand sceeme of things
:colorful:

[Xander67]

Drive from within yourself and find the kabalah,
the only true cabbalists out there are from generations
of cabbala scholars who spend there entire lifes researching
documenting like numerical alchemists, encrypting the encryptions.
Inner-connected paths of energy.........
you knoew the tree?


ah yes, the spider web :)

[Morr]

I'm studying it... Its kinda complicated, but I love it anyways.. I got 2 books (in hebrew) by an Israeli Kabballahist... its cool!
I had a Tree Of Life Pendant that had gems in the colors of each of the Sefirot in the sefirots' places on the Tree of Life... But one gem fell :( So I stopped wearing it, and now it hangs in my room, over a Madonna poster (well - i had nowhere else to hang it and, it sorta fits.. ya know.. madonna.. kabballah...).

[Joe Nobody]

I have studied the Kabbalah and Judeo-Christian mysticism for several years now. But I am in no way a master on the subject.

[Xander67]

I like going to Rabbi Fund's Classes in the Village in NY, (he teaches all around the country and Madona even studied under his guidance :)

[pupil]

One seems to be living in a "mental" world of Yod-He's and a "physical' world of Vau-He's; but the twain don't meet! Humanity evolves by having children, the seed grows into a new tree, but does anyone ever complete his/her inner self in the same way. It seems were're always 'beside' that tertiary and quarternary experience, the body degrades and well, you know the rest. This personal 'victory' and 'beauty' eludes
us all and the desire to 'humanise' the unknowable is replaced by "deifying" the known. God is only on the "outside" in Time, but we are connected to God, in Matter, even though most religions tend to shin this idea. Why does not (Yod-He-Vau-He) unfold its wings and "powers" inside the individual, rather than on the outside as
an offspring. Are we to be redeemed so slowly? Any Rabbi's ,Rosicrucians, Masons, Hierophants or Illuminati out there who could help me on this one?

[Xander67]

well,
ok
2 words
spiritual alchemy
its the best i can do on short notice

[pupil]

well,
ok
2 words
spiritual alchemy
its the best i can do on short notice

I'm not sure if you were replying to my question Xander, but I thought I might drop a note anyway, given that you have chosen such a heavily karmically-
weighted name to go by. By the way, if you are Xander 67, does that mean there are at least 66 other Xanders out there somewhere. (please excuse the cosmic humour..)
Spiritual Alchemy (although I would call it intellectual Alchemy) seems to be a
process of learning and teaching, which, through the appropriate kind of 'initiation, brings a person of 'baser' ethical and intellectual freedom, to a place of 'higher' understanding. It's a process of stages and plateaus, like the stages of alchemy. The
law of the tetragrammaton (ie Yod-he-vau-He) seems to be suggesting that we have to complete this process over many incarnations, even though its element 'shin' promises
through our many sacrifices, that it won't turn into a case of "eternal return" which
is what it feels like sometimes. Throw an acorn into the cauldron for me, will ya.

[Derlidash]

:lol: Hi I am iniciated on the cabala,
So cabala is actually more like a function that just one of this images, this is becasuse it really envolves like the whole everything. So sometimes is just a thing of a perspective and maybe it will not be valid for every one, at least that you share the perspective of the other person, thas why a really important things is to understand the rules and not his effects one by one but all at the same time by one rule.

I can aswer some of your cuestion, but like someone at the begining of this topic said: is more what you can understsand by puting cabala on trainig, that just looking for it on the theory.

At my single opinion, theory well analized is also really goog, because you can see all the posibilities before walk trought one of them.

derliferreira@hotmail.com

[Xander67]

I'm not sure if you were replying to my question Xander, but I thought I might drop a note anyway, given that you have chosen such a heavily karmically-
weighted name to go by. By the way, if you are Xander 67, does that mean there are at least 66 other Xanders out there somewhere. (please excuse the cosmic humour..)
Spiritual Alchemy (although I would call it intellectual Alchemy) seems to be a
process of learning and teaching, which, through the appropriate kind of 'initiation, brings a person of 'baser' ethical and intellectual freedom, to a place of 'higher' understanding. It's a process of stages and plateaus, like the stages of alchemy. The
law of the tetragrammaton (ie Yod-he-vau-He) seems to be suggesting that we have to complete this process over many incarnations, even though its element 'shin' promises
through our many sacrifices, that it won't turn into a case of "eternal return" which
is what it feels like sometimes. Throw an acorn into the cauldron for me, will ya.

Xander67 is my screen name here because i like Buffy the Vampire slayer, and the 67 is the year i was born, it was not meant to indicate that there are 66 xanders, for all I know there could be thousands lol

I chose the term spiritual alchemy becuase i was being lazy and didnt feel like typing out a bunch of nonsense ......... Im still learning too :)

[Bethra]

:lol: I think I'll go with the second option here . I'm an industrious learner :) Dispite having conducted a class here on the subject I remain an industrious learner :D:smoke:

[Zelan]

Hmm...noones posted here in awhile! I don't know if this will be read, but for the sake of trying...
In regards to an earlier debate over the spelling of g*d, Theres asked a question about why the vowel was omitted from the spelling. Despite the heated debate that seemed to ensue, I learned some neat things about the reason why from some of the posts here. Now I know this isn't purely theological, but past of the reason is tradition. In the past, the Jews, talmudians, Kabbalists, and orthodox alike would not write down the full name/name of G*d on anything that might be destroyed. The fact that Yod He Vav He is pronounced Adonai is because of the changes made over the centuries in the Hebrew language. A "lost in translation" thing. So instead of pronouncing it Yahweh, the issue was sidestepped entirely I think in respect to the Creator. I hope ppl start posting here again because I for one, would like to learn more about it.

(just in case)=I've come across references to a greek kabbalah.
now is this not a thing or is it something different from the hebrew one?

[Aequitas]

I like going to Rabbi Fund's Classes in the Village in NY, (he teaches all around the country and Madona even studied under his guidance :)
Really? I thought Madonna belonged to the Kabbalah Centre, an organization that Meir Fund has been rather outspoken against.

I've also attended one of Fund's lectures. Interesting enough, though I have issues with some (most) of his interpretations.

I'm suprised to hear him mentioned here. Alot of people in these types of circles take issue with Fund's views on homosexuality.

Edit: ugh.. hooray for replying to a 2-year old post.

[Aequitas]

Hmm...noones posted here in awhile! I don't know if this will be read, but for the sake of trying...
In regards to an earlier debate over the spelling of g*d, Theres asked a question about why the vowel was omitted from the spelling. Despite the heated debate that seemed to ensue, I learned some neat things about the reason why from some of the posts here. Now I know this isn't purely theological, but past of the reason is tradition. In the past, the Jews, talmudians, Kabbalists, and orthodox alike would not write down the full name/name of G*d on anything that might be destroyed. The fact that Yod He Vav He is pronounced Adonai is because of the changes made over the centuries in the Hebrew language. A "lost in translation" thing. So instead of pronouncing it Yahweh, the issue was sidestepped entirely I think in respect to the Creator. I hope ppl start posting here again because I for one, would like to learn more about it.

(just in case)=I've come across references to a greek kabbalah.
now is this not a thing or is it something different from the hebrew one?

You are correct in regards to the used of g-d. Though it's now widely accepted that using God on the internet and electronic media is fine. However, when written on paper, g-d is preferred, as a sign of respect more than anything.

The reason the YHVH is pronounced as Adonai is that the true name of god (aka the Tetragrammaton) should never be pronounced. Jews feel that the utterance of the Sacred Name by a human being would be profane.

As for the "greek Kabbalah", it's really just a slightly different translation of the original Sepher Yetzirah, reflecting the Pythagorean alphanumerical system. I think the central difference is that a couple planetary correspondences were switched. AFIAK this only becomes a discussion piece in a Tarot context.

[Zelan]

Thnks forthe insight on the difference btwn the Greek and Hebrew Kabballah! that helps alot!

[maphdet]

Greek Qabalah?
I want links.
*is interested*

[Bethra]

Greek Qabalah???? Yeah I want links too

[Aequitas]

hmm? Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. As I've said, the Greek Kabbalah is simply a greek translation of the hebraic version.

Now, if you'd like to know the effects this had on the Kabbalah, I'd suggest this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1578631106/002-2420086-9184868?v=glance&n=283155). It's goes a bit overboard, because the goal of the book is to display all the influences different cultures have had on what people incorrectly call a purely 'Jewish tradition', but it does touch on the effects of the Greek translation on hebraic oral traditions.

Now, I've heard some people intertwine the terms 'greek kabbalah' and 'hermetic kabbalah' which is a bit of a misnomer. The hermetic kabbalah is a syncretic concoction of the hebraic kabbalah and greek-influenced hermeticism.

PS: Maybe this should spawn a new thread.. though I doubt there would be much interest.

[maphdet]

Ah I see now. Thank you.

[Aequitas]

It's also important to realize that hebraic kabbalah is not a magical system in it's own right. Divination, pathworking, et al are based off the Christianized kabbalah. Hebraic kabbalists are notable for their reluctance to define the Sephirot and paths, as they view the Tree of Life as a treatise on the Divine Effulgence.

The concepts of the Sefirot as archetypes, and the practice of applying correspondances and attributes to the ToL as made popular by the Golden Dawn use this latter, Christianized version (with hermetic, gnostic, and other western influences).

My point being, if you go back to the early greek, coptic, latin, and hebrew works, you'll find that they are products of the hebraic kabbalah (though also weighed down with gnostic influence) and not of much use in a pagan or magical context.

[maphdet]

Sometimes I wish I had a lifetime to spend understanding The Tree of Life.
I tend to spend a little bit of time here and there with it.
Maybe I'll get out the Quabalah folder again. LoL

[Bethra]

Sometimes I wish I had a lifetime to spend understanding The Tree of Life.
I tend to spend a little bit of time here and there with it.
Maybe I'll get out the Quabalah folder again. LoL

:D You could always join the class here ;)

[Aequitas]

Sometimes I wish I had a lifetime to spend understanding The Tree of Life.
I tend to spend a little bit of time here and there with it.
Maybe I'll get out the Quabalah folder again. LoL
Yes, well there's a lot of readily available information out there. I can't endorse this site's kabbalistic course per se, as I find alot of the information disagreeable or just flat out incorrect (no offense to anyone), but there are many avenues out there. Even when taken casually, it can be some pretty fascinating stuff.

[magickman12]

This is not wholly Kabbalah related, but it does apply to the Hebrew alphabet which I have studied in my Qabalistic studies. Some letters share the same name as the oldest Egyptian deities, such as Nun and Heh, and some letters are very similar to other ancient deities, such as Shin (Sin) and Peh (Ptah). My theory is that there is a connection between the Hebrew letters and the gods of old. Perhaps their very name and meaning derived from these gods. The god Nun, for instance, was the emodiment of the formless ocean in which all life sprung. The mystical meaning given to the letter Nun is 'fish', one of the first forms of life on this planet. In another case, the letter Peh is given the mystical meaning of 'mouth', while the god Ptah used his mouth to create other gods.
Now, onto a more Kabbalistic note: the Shekhinah is said to be the indwelling manifestation of God, or the female principle of God, yet she is said to live in exile among men. She is also the neshamah, the soul of man. Much of what I learn about Her is confusing. It seems as if She is just a metaphor for several different things, such as the Jews own exile. I understand much of the Kabbalah, but for some reason, the true essence of the Shekhinah escapes me. Anyone here care to clarify this matter for me?

[lily and the lion]

Now, onto a more Kabbalistic note: the Shekhinah is said to be the indwelling manifestation of God, or the female principle of God, yet she is said to live in exile among men. She is also the neshamah, the soul of man. Much of what I learn about Her is confusing. It seems as if She is just a metaphor for several different things, such as the Jews own exile. I understand much of the Kabbalah, but for some reason, the true essence of the Shekhinah escapes me. Anyone here care to clarify this matter for me?

This is a really good question. But in all honesty, it sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of the Shechina already.

As you know, Judaism is a wholly monotheistic religion. The suggestion that there is anything on the level with G*d, such as naming the Shechina a Goddess or somesuch as some people are wont to do, is heresy. The Shechina isn't a separate being--she isn't an angel, or a Goddess or a fairy, or whatever. The Shechina is a different face of G*d, the very personal face of G*d that dwells on Earth with humankind. She is the loving, personal aspect of G*d that Jews invite into their homes on the Sabbath. She is the Presence of God. In fact, I would go so far as to say the idea of the Shechina can be likened to the Christian notion of the Holy Spirit.

The Shechina, as you mentioned, is in exile. It is said that when the tribes of Israel sinned against God, they moved another world away from God, and the Shechina went with them. I believe this happened seven times. So the Presence of God, or the Indwelling, and the Essence of God were removed from each other. It is as painful a separation as that of a husband from his new bride, or a mother from her child. In Hasidic Judaism, then, there are certain rites or practices (certain "mitzvot") that Jews perform in the hopes of drawing the Shechina out of exile--in order to unite the Presence of God with the Essence of God once more. I think that's a really beautiful idea.

[magickman12]

Thank you lily...
What I do not understand, however, is how can either the Shekhinah or Israel be separated from G-d, when G-d is all there is? It is taught that each sephiroth is an emanation of Kether, which itself is an emanation of Ain Soph; therefore Malkuth, and everything within Malkuth is not separated from G-d, but rather, part of that force, that emanation. Is Malkuth any less holy than Kether? No, for it contains the energies of all the other sephiroth, just as Kether. The only sense of separation then can only be an illusion if you Malkuth is part of the Tree of Life.
At least that is how I see it.
MM12

[lily and the lion]

Thank you lily...
What I do not understand, however, is how can either the Shekhinah or Israel be separated from G-d, when G-d is all there is? It is taught that each sephiroth is an emanation of Kether, which itself is an emanation of Ain Soph; therefore Malkuth, and everything within Malkuth is not separated from G-d, but rather, part of that force, that emanation. Is Malkuth any less holy than Kether? No, for it contains the energies of all the other sephiroth, just as Kether. The only sense of separation then can only be an illusion if you Malkuth is part of the Tree of Life.
At least that is how I see it.
MM12

The bold is important, I think.

I think most any theology, if it is a good one, is full of paradox and contradiction. This is certaily true for any mystical theology, where half the point is to envision God as poetry in motion. The mystic definitely does not want to portray his God as a string of logical reductions. So built right into the vision of Godhood is a core of paradox--it makes God more complex and interesting, and it certainly makes for better stories.

The ancient Kabbalists said that the further you moved down the tree, down the four worlds and into the Malkuth of the fourth world, you were moving away from the truest essence of God, becuase the furhter you move away from the Ein soph, the more "debris" creeps into the light and the muddier the face of God appears. I think on some level this is true. I think the further into the four worlds you travel the further away we move from what I've heard called "God above God" (which is Paul Tillich's term, though I wish I could claim it)--this inexplicable, unimaginable "greatness", beyond reason, beyond morality, beyond anything that has, frankly, any real usefulness to the human person. But though we move away from the God above God, we move deeper into the Presence of God, the God that is real because it is riddled with the gray that we actually have to deal with in our day to day endeavors. Down here in the trenches, as it were, I am very far removed from God above God, but that's okay, because there's something else with me that is more immediate, more useful, more "tangible".

So, to bring all this back to Shechina. It may very well be that in reality we are never away from God because God is all there is. But down here in the trenches, perception is king. If I feel as though I am separated from God and cannot hear God's voice, then for all intents and purposes, I am not with God. That's why I've always joked that each atheist is right--there isn't any God. For him.

Separation from God is certainly illusion in one sense. In another sense, we are all separated from the God above God by necessity. Utter unity prevents self-reflection. Utter unity is impotent. God above God alone can't do anything! There has to be some sort of separation in order for this universe, this reality, to be what it is.

[magickman12]

Separation from God is certainly illusion in one sense. In another sense, we are all separated from the God above God by necessity. Utter unity prevents self-reflection. Utter unity is impotent. God above God alone can't do anything! There has to be some sort of separation in order for this universe, this reality, to be what it is.

That is very true. 'Tis better to know experience than to know experentially.