Druidism -vs- Wicca

[Brenners]

I keep reading how Druidism and Wicca are similar, but what I'd like to know is how are they different? I'm trying to decide between the two and leaning toward Druidism since it seems Wicca borrowed a lot more from Druidism than Druidism borrowed from Wicca.

Anyway, if anyone can help me out with this, I'd appreciate it immensely!

:fpraiseyo

[Aldrick]

Well I assume it would seem that way because as far as I know Druidism predates wicca.

My Fiance wants to know if you got that image from a site or made it yourself she really likes it. The Bottom one 'Pagan Heart and Soul'

[Brenners]

Aldrick, yes Druidism does predate Wicca, or so I just recently found out! I figure I may want to discover the source (or some may argue part of the source) of Wicca.

Of my little blinkie down there (which doesn't blink) I got it from another blinkie web site. If you do a search for Pagan blinkies, you should come up with quite a few.

:)

[Morgandria]

http://www.witchscauldron.net/cauldron/lugaid.htm

[Brenners]

http://www.witchscauldron.net/cauldron/lugaid.htm


Ahhh, thank you so much! This made perfect sense. Hmm, now I'm off to read more about Druidism!

:elf:

[She-Arna]

:) That website was so useful!

[mol]

I dont think Wicca pulls a lot from Druidism. I may be wrong, but since Gardner pretty much started Wicca and he was mainly a ceremonial type...I just dont see a lot of Druidism going into it.

[JimWA]

It's a good question but a large one altogether. I wouldn't argue on which is older. I have my opinion but that only counts for me. Both have most of their sources in English speaking paganism. I can tell you what I like about druidry that is absent from Wicca. The old celtic myths and legends have more bearing in druidry. This gives it a link with the ancient past. I don't get this feeling with Wicca although I might be missing something. This is just one reason I follow a druidic path. The rest I'll leave to another time and place. Jim

[Fianna]

I don't know enough about either yet to make a comparison but I do know that Druidism fills the intellectual gap left by wicca.

As well as feeding the soul it nourishes the brain - well for me anyway - it is more whole if you know what I mean?

x

[mol]

It's a good question but a large one altogether. I wouldn't argue on which is older. I have my opinion but that only counts for me. Both have most of their sources in English speaking paganism. I can tell you what I like about druidry that is absent from Wicca. The old celtic myths and legends have more bearing in druidry. This gives it a link with the ancient past. I don't get this feeling with Wicca although I might be missing something. This is just one reason I follow a druidic path. The rest I'll leave to another time and place. Jim
Which is older? Wasn't Wicca created in the last century?

[JimWA]

In my humble opinion druidry is a lot older, but some would argue that Gardener drew from sources that where old also. I don't wish to get into academic arguements over sources. I neither have the time nor the energy to do so. Wicca seems to be more eclectic whereas druidry is very close to shamanism. Then again to an outsider Wiccan and Druidic rituals might look a lot a like, but I think that is because both are using the same English speaking sources. Ok, I know the difference and it seems pronounced to me but to somebody that has no knowledge of either, they would look very similar. Ok, I go on and on, I could go on and on about this, but I'll stop now. Jim

[mol]

Just because you use old sources for information does not mean your idea or system is old. There is nothing wrong with being a young religion. Good grief, on the contrary...it means that it is still growing and non-stagnant.

[JimWA]

I like the idea of having a foundation, but that's just me.

[Aidron]

I'll try to be brief, but simplistic:

Druidism is much older in my mind than Wicca, but Wicca alone (I won't get into other spiritual paths right now) as Wicca itself is modern witchcraft, which while it does take things from various religions throughout the world into a lovely melting pot, Wicca itself officially wasn't birthed too long ago.

A bit of compare/contrast, if you will:

Druidism - More ceremonial, more natural magick and working with astrology, astronomy, the elements, and nature as a whole. More ritualistic ordeals as opposed to simplistic spellcasting or incantations.

Wicca - More meditations, mental exercises, more actual spellcasting than druidism. It encompasses quite a bit, rituals, spells, potion making, crafts, etc.

I find Wicca to be more broad and general and Druidic paths to be more focused on an attunement with nature and the cosmos. Not to say that Wicca does not promote these things, just that Druidism promotes seems more focused on it more times than not.

[Irishwitchyone]

For those of you that have read my intro post, you know that I am not the Druid in my household, but I am the voice, so I get coached alot :)

"Real" Druidry predates St. Patrick, folks, and that's sometime in the Dark Ages...I can get a date if anyone wants to know...of course, a google search will do that, too. There are groves that follow the old ways, and have since the formings of Druidic paths, when Druids were the advisors to clan chiefs and "kings" of the Celtic Tribes. They were Bards, Healers, and Magicians, which are still the three paths that Druid trainees follow, each unto his or her own gifts. My love's grove has guarded the same areas of the British Isles for centuries...by disguising themselves as whomever the persecuter at the time was...I hear that the locals think that his grove's leader and strongest guardian is a holy roller/BTJF. Modern Druidry/Neo-Druidry, from what I have seen, is a great idea...I don't know that details of the foundings, and cannot speak to them, but I doubt, from what I know of the garden paths that "Old" Druids will lead seekers down, that there's a lot in common between the two. I guess as to the age thing, it depends on what type of Druidry is being used for the comparison.

Modern Wicca, the only thing that qualifies as "Wicca" was started by the Gardner/Crowley stuff...though I think that there are many who cringe at the Crowley connection, I've seen somewhere that Gardner used Crowley's Ceremonialism as a basis for his ritual. I am sure that, like Druidry, there are family traditions of "Wise Ones" who lived through the persecutions of the Dark Ages and kept their faith alive. It is said that Gardner learned from on of these groups. Point is, though, that unless a member oif one of these "Family Trads" could be called upon to confirm or deny, there really is no way to know if there is any similarity at all between Wicca and the old trads of herbal healing and Goddess worship that existed.

One of the largest issues with answering the rest of the question above is that it depends on which type of Druidry you mean, and what EXACTLY you consider Wicca to be, because definitions of Wicca are as diverse as the people who practice it.

Wow!! How was that for a whole lotta nothing?? As a thought, though...if my babbles get too lengthy, PM me, or email me, or some such animal, and we can fence offline!!

[Brenners]

A few things.

First, I thought Druidism and Wicca are both modern religions that have been influenced by a much older spirituality. The exact details of said ancient spirituality are unknown to us and we can only speculate based on the little we have, how exactly these people lived spiritualy. This is what I keep reading, like how the theory of a goddess centered society is just that, a theory.

Second, I am not aware of multiple definitions of Wicca. From what I have read, Wicca can definitely define itself, outline it's rituals, and all that other good stuff. All the Wiccans I have met essentially believe in the same thing, though they may not follow the same trad if any, I always believed there was a central core belief system that everyone abided by.

If I am wrong please correct me, but it seems like you're saying a) there is more than one form of Druidism (I was unaware of this) b) some forms of Druidism are older than others and in fact ancient c) Wicca has more than one defition and d) goddess worship really did exist in regards to said religions.

I always assumed the above was false, anyone care to shed any light?









"Real" Druidry predates St. Patrick, folks, and that's sometime in the Dark Ages..

<snip>

...there really is no way to know if there is any similarity at all between Wicca and the old trads of herbal healing and Goddess worship that existed.

One of the largest issues with answering the rest of the question above is that it depends on which type of Druidry you mean, and what EXACTLY you consider Wicca to be, because definitions of Wicca are as diverse as the people who practice it.

<snip>

[Irishwitchyone]

Since I'm trying to reply to this in sections, I'm going to make my responses in color:


"A few things.

First, I thought Druidism and Wicca are both modern religions that have been influenced by a much older spirituality. The exact details of said ancient spirituality are unknown to us and we can only speculate based on the little we have, how exactly these people lived spiritualy. This is what I keep reading, like how the theory of a goddess centered society is just that, a theory."


Originally, I thought this, too...that modern, or "neo"paganism is/was entirely based upon what the collective "we" has been able to surmise from writings, traditions, and scientific study of ancient and indiginous cultures. I knew that there are traditions such as Stregheria, etc, that are family tradition through many generations prior, but I had, as had many, thought that Druidry disappeared with the advent of Christianity in the Isles. After meeting my beloved, and being able to converse with the Elders of his wood, I have since learned that being hidden is what helped them and traditions that date back to antiquity survive into modern times. One does not seek them, they find those with the gifts. As I said earlier, they will lead those who aren't gifted in the ways they look for haring off through the garden, or point them to the other nature based religions gently, often without TRULY revealing anything, even affiliation with a grove or wood.
As another thought to that...ancient Druidry is NOT a goddess based religion. What you've read about Goddess based faith, as I have said, is most probably true, though Gardner claimed to be initiated into a family tradition in England. I also know family trad witches who back generations and trace lineage to the Isles, long enough to have preexisted Gardner and who do not refer to themselves as Wicca.
The emphasis I want to place here is that these are NOT the ones writing the books, unless one refers to books like "The 21 Lessons of Merlin"...a nice trip down the garden path.



"Second, I am not aware of multiple definitions of Wicca. From what I have read, Wicca can definitely define itself, outline it's rituals, and all that other good stuff. All the Wiccans I have met essentially believe in the same thing, though they may not follow the same trad if any, I always believed there was a central core belief system that everyone abided by."


Ask 15 "Wiccans" the same core questions, and I think that, unless you are asking a tradition group, you'll find that the answers are different. I know this was so when I did it. It's the beauty of such an open-minded faith, in that one can choose to form their own ideas as to what they choose to believe, which god/goddess they choose to worship, etc. The downside is that there is no Dogma, no core belief. If there was a core without which one could not be Wiccan, there would be no eclectic Wicca, no Kemetic Wicca, or any other Wicca that differed from, say, Gardnerian Wicca as Gerald Gardner is widely recognized as the founding father of modern Wicca.
Again, this is my opinion and my personal observations. If someone can show me the core belief of all Wiccans, than I will change my mind accordingly.


"If I am wrong please correct me, but it seems like you're saying a) there is more than one form of Druidism (I was unaware of this) b) some forms of Druidism are older than others and in fact ancient c) Wicca has more than one defition and d) goddess worship really did exist in regards to said religions."


A) Yep...that's prettymuch exactly what I said, though my fiance and his crew would differ. They think that Neo-Druids are WAY too white bread, and don't qualify :) I tend to disagree, but I am the more open-minded of the two of us.
B) Again, yep...
C) I think I mispoke, because the difference isn't so much in the definition of the religion, per se, as it is in the definition of the beliefs...like I said above.
D) I don't see where I said that Goddess worship existed in regards to said religions...I didn't mention that Druidry had gods at all, and I think I said that unless one could actually get a member of a family trad that has been around for centurires to enlighten us, we don't know details of their beliefs and whether there is similarity to modern Wicca, though I believe that Gardner claimed to have been initiated into one of them. Modern science theorizes Goddess cults in many indiginous tribes, although it is, as you've stated, theory. If you can tell me how you concluded your point D from what I said, I'll be able to clarify further, or retract if I need to do so, as I tend to suffer from foot-in-mouth-itis.



I always assumed the above was false, anyone care to shed any light?

Yes, anyone?? Twig, Mol, etc??

[SylverStar]

Well I don't know alot on either, but I will from what I can tell there are a few forms of druidism. Reconstructionist, Neo-drudism, Christo-druidism.

With all religions with different braches ones going to be older than the other.

Wicca is hard to define but I would say they seem to all hold the Wiccan rede and follow the wheel of the year consepts. As well as worpishiping duality aspects of the God/Goddess.

and as farm as Goddess worship in the family traditions (I think that's what you meant) It's hard to say what any of there beliefs are, but I imagine some of them worship the Goddess.

Again I don't know alot and these are only my perceptions.

[JimWA]

This is really an intersesting thread, but I think we are dealing with subjects that have to fluid a meaning to tie anything down. It's not that this conversation should end, but some of what I've read has left me more confused. A lot of terms have been thrown out there with out much time taken to define them.

I thought we were talking in generalities. In general I can see a difference between druidism and wicca although at this hour I'm unable to put it into words. I'd have to think about it for a while. Jim

[SylverStar]

Confusion is the only state of mind to be in.

I'm not good at trying to have things make sense, but I'm good at making people question what they think makes sense.

ok you can ignore anything I say

What was the question again?

[mol]

A few things.

First, I thought Druidism and Wicca are both modern religions that have been influenced by a much older spirituality. The exact details of said ancient spirituality are unknown to us and we can only speculate based on the little we have, how exactly these people lived spiritualy. This is what I keep reading, like how the theory of a goddess centered society is just that, a theory.

Hmm. Maybe Twig can shed some light on this one, but I didnt think the Druid path was that new.


Second, I am not aware of multiple definitions of Wicca. From what I have read, Wicca can definitely define itself, outline it's rituals, and all that other good stuff. All the Wiccans I have met essentially believe in the same thing, though they may not follow the same trad if any, I always believed there was a central core belief system that everyone abided by.

Eek. This is a bit tricky. I have definitely met some Wiccans that could NOT fit the same definition. There is a large percentage of Wiccans that can definitely adhere to a standard definition of their path, but not all. Maybe some more Wiccans could chime in here and shed some more light on that aspect.


goddess worship really did exist in regards to said religions. I always assumed the above was false, anyone care to shed any light?

I dont understand this part. What do you mean?

[Kaylara]

There are supposed to be core beliefs that Wiccans follow, but the interperations of said rules are so varied that we may as well say there are no set rules...

[Amethyst Rose]

Ask 15 "Wiccans" the same core questions, and I think that, unless you are asking a tradition group, you'll find that the answers are different.

If you ask a traditional group, they will tell you that unless you are inititated into a tradition then you are NOT wicca, because you don't know the core beliefs and therefore cannot practice them.



I know this was so when I did it. It's the beauty of such an open-minded faith, in that one can choose to form their own ideas as to what they choose to believe, which god/goddess they choose to worship, etc. The downside is that there is no Dogma, no core belief. If there was a core without which one could not be Wiccan, there would be no eclectic Wicca, no Kemetic Wicca, or any other Wicca that differed from, say, Gardnerian Wicca as Gerald Gardner is widely recognized as the founding father of modern Wicca.


And I bet that a great many trad wiccans will tell you that they wish that eclectic forms of wicca didn't exist. That their religion has been polluted because people feel exactly what you expressed....that it is a "believe what you want religion" without any core beliefs. They would probably be highly insulted to hear it described that way.

I think that if you're going to talk about wicca, you need to realize that it is really two different religions (with similar beliefs), and you need to distinguish between those two religions. 1. Trad (BTW) Wicca: An initiatory religion and priesthood, of which no one who is not initiated can know or practice "the mysteries", which includes the gods of worship and core beliefs among many other things. 2. Eclectic Wicca: takes many different forms and doesn't have any real set "rules" or core beliefs, (beyond the rede and rule of three) because the religion can be different for everyone.

edited to clarify a point.

[JimWA]

AmethystRose, that was very well put, so thank you for that clarification. I for one don't like initiations, bad personal experience, but that's just me. I basicly believe in the Gaia Theory and from what I've read most druids do also. This probably makes me a neo-druid more than anything although I've read dozens of books on historical druidry. I don't feel any need to reconstruct the forms of ancient druidry. So druidism has some traditionally minded groups who have there own intitiations. I don't find any need to be part of such groups, but I like being part of groups until they ask me to do some kind of initiation. Ok, so I could be an assoiated member if I could find a group that would have me.

The Gaia Theory basicly put believes that the universe and everything in it is alive and has intelligence. I believe that through meditative practices one can become part of this and it can become part of you. I can reach out and touch the intelligence of say a tree or a bird and that intelligence can become part of me. I might not be saying this very well and it doesn't end with just birds and trees. They are just an example, also this is just my take on druidism and not to be taken as what druidism is in whole or in part. Jim

[DebLipp]

If I my throw in my two cents, I used to teach a workshop on this...

Both Wicca and Druidism are modern religions with ancient roots. In the case of Wicca, there's little to no evidence that the roots were ever called "Wicca," and so we say the religion of Wicca is modern, but that doesn't mean it came from nowhere. Still, it's fair to say that 99% of Wicca is a modern and unique religion, that its amalgamation of older forms is a new mix that qualifies as modern.

With Druidism, it's a bit trickier. Just as there are real famtrad witches, there are real famtrad druids, but they represent such a tiny minority of the people who call themselves druids today that they don't make any kind of a dent into the current druid scene. Modern neopagan druids have the advantage that there is a LOT of information available about what the ancient druids did, and a lot of historical reconstruction that's been done. Most modern druids can be characterized by their strong interest in history and historicity.

There are also lodge druids. Druid "orders" were founded that were rather similar to Masonry, and had no real basis in history. Modern druids often combine lodge style druidry with historical druidry with modern neopaganism. And some lodge druids discovered neopaganism in the past fifteen years and have brought their practice into a more Pagan place.

Ritually, the basic difference is that Wiccans cast circles and Druids don't. A druid ritual is generally open; open to the natural and occult forces, and open in terms of movement. A Wiccan ritual is generally closed; the circle is considered an impermeable wall; people and forces are either inside or outside. Wiccans proscribe their movements within the circle, for example, by moving only deosil. Energetically, Wiccan circles are characterized by energy that moves deosil, and druid rituals are generally characterized by energy that moves in and out from the sacred center.

Theologically, druidism is more strictly polytheistic, although the Earth Mother or the sovereign Goddess of the local land is usually given primacy (depending upon the branch of druidry). Wicca is often polytheistic, but more often duotheistic (Goddess and God).

Druids do not work with four elements. They work in threes.

Wiccans don't do much in the way of ancestor worship.

Druids are highly ethnically focused. They almost always worship Celtic gods exclusively, although with a group like ADF (http://www.adf.org), other ethnic focuses are welcome. Wiccans can be ethnically focused, but they don't have to be, and some will even mix ethnicity within one ritual (worshipping, say, Isis and Pan at the same time).

Most of the modern Druid groups don't have "secrets" although they do have initiatory or dedication rites.

Because there are so many different Wiccan traditions, and so many different branches of druidry, these generalities will not apply in every single case. YMMV. But they are good workable rules of thumb.

[tensen]

My interpretation as one having past experience with Wicca (prett much my long-time path), while currently working with a group having ties to Druidism:

Wicca and Druidism are both reconstructionalist type religions.
Druidism while working with a mixture of several cultures (the various celtic traditions) is still working with one basic set of materials.
Wicca has pulled from various witchcraft sources and quite possibility from ceremonial magic to create the original Gardnarian form.. and then has splintered into a very eclectic base by many of the current practioners. I've had some experience with a British Traditionalist path of Wicca and it does try to draw from mostly a single source... but the public form of Wicca does not.

[tensen]

Ritually, the basic difference is that Wiccans cast circles and Druids don't. A druid ritual is generally open; open to the natural and occult forces, and open in terms of movement. A Wiccan ritual is generally closed; the circle is considered an impermeable wall; people and forces are either inside or outside. Wiccans proscribe their movements within the circle, for example, by moving only deosil. Energetically, Wiccan circles are characterized by energy that moves deosil, and druid rituals are generally characterized by energy that moves in and out from the sacred center.


I've seen Druids cast circles too. But then again Druidism is starting to get a lot of eclectic orders as well. I see the difference there as, Druids cast their circle once upon creating their grove, and find they don't need to re-enforce their beliefs... But they also tend to have relatively steady place of worship, where Wiccan covens tend to move their covensteads around. This makes Wiccan circles a form of portable sacred area. Where a Druid comes back to their location and can possible greet each of the stones and trees by name.

[Seamus MacNemi]

For those of you who might be interested in all things Druidic, There is a group (to which I belong) in East Sussex England. Their web sight is " druidry.org " Please don't hesitate to drop them a line.

[Seamus MacNemi]

Beautiful. I could listen to you talk all day.
:elf:

[Autumn Clair]

I follow a path. Which one is it again? Hmmmm...........

Can You tell me?

[Seamus MacNemi]

That's not for me to decide. I can't even name your path for you. Nor will I even try.
All I can do is to speak the truths of the path that I am on. If others find themselves in harmony with the thoughts and ideas that I present here then to some degree prehaps we are on the same path. I do not discount the idea or the possibility that there are others who might share the same path with me. But if they do, then it is a matter of their own choosing and not because I have acted in any way to coerce them.

[Emrys]

Which is older? Wasn't Wicca created in the last
century?

From what I have read I have learned this.
Wicca as we know it today is quite new, but Witchcraft and Druidism has been around since at least the dawn of the human race. They have the same primeval origin since they were both developed to serve the same role in the lives of ancient man.The differences between them seem to relate to the cultures that developed over time. Of course the Druidism of today is, I`m sure, nothing like its ancestor,just like Wicca, as the principle creators began reinventing it about the 19th century.

[LittleRhiannon]

Druids weren't around at the dawn of time, they were early, but at least after stonehenge.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

No, neither have been around since the dawn of the human race, persey. There have been "Earth Religions" since then, but not under either name. Druidry slowly evolved into what the ancient Celts practiced. Wicca is a term coined by Gerald Gardener. Witchcraft is a different story. Witchcraft grew and evolved from the ancient "Earth Religions".

[was]

I think druids predate wicca.

[Flappersquirrel]

Seems to me like something we'd have to take on a druid by druid basis. It seems like there's several new flavors of druidry being born every year, with only the word druid to tenuously connect it to the ancient celtic priesthood.
If your particular brand of druidry came out of a Llewellan book, then it's prolly a bit younger than Wicca. Though I suppose there may be some holdovers from the Victorian druid craze, but that was more of a Christian lodge gussied up in pagan trappings...hmm...tricky question...

[beetlejuicessister]

didnt see this one earlier, but felt obliged to reply anyhow. You wanted to know how the Druidism and wicca are different, well, here's some ideas.
Wicca was created by Gardner last century as Mo kindly said, Druidism is older than any of the non-pagan religion, i.e. judaism, christianism, islam, and any of their variations.
Wicca is hardly bound to their arcades, like "harm none" etc, Druids are only just and fair whether it is for good or evil, one only recieves what one deserves.
Wicca is just a way Gardner put together to his liking "borrowing" from other traditions, Druidism is tribes that go a long way in the history and have many branches as many as the Trees of the Forest.
Be well.

[whitelady]

There is very little accurate Druid history. Anyone who tells you that the Druids "went underground" and that he is part of an unbroken tradition of Druidism has been dreaming or imbibing a bit too much.
What exists now is what we call "reconstructed" Druidism. We Druids KNOW that, recognize that and have no need to draw on some falsely created path. We are drawing from history to create a path of the present.
White lady :hehehehe:

[LilPunkin]

Acually the Gardnerian tradition was founded in the middle 1950s which only revived witchcraft. Witchcraft, also known as the Old Religion, has been around for a very long time dating as far back as the fourteenth century A.D. and possibly even farther, personally I do not know. In my opinion, I do not feel one should follow a path based on which one came first. Follow your heart, if the Druid Tradition calls to you, so be it. The best thing you can do for yourself is to never stop learning about any and all taditions, we are constantly learning and changing.

[Dave the Druid]

Allow me to say THANK YOU ALL! This is one of the best discussions I have seen/heard on Druidry! With deepest respect to Seamus MacNemi I would offer this link on Druidry.
http://www.druidorder.demon.co.uk/index1.htm
I'm not sure where to begin, you have all so beautifully covered many of the 'basic' concepts.
mmmm, thinking......