Books: traditional vrs wicca, help?

[Starssobrite]

Does anyone know of a good book(s) that is more traditional witchcraft vrs wicca or any books other then Llewellyn published. I have read mostly Llewellyn published books and find then how do I say repetitive, looking for something different. I'm still in the discover and research stage not really practicing yet

Melissa

[indigo rain]

what kind of path are you leaning toward? what pantheon do you feel closest to? mine's the egyptian pantheon, and right now i'm reading "the sacred tradition in ancient egypt." just search for books on the roots of your path. if you're interested in celtic witchcraft, look for books on celtic wisdom. you know why there's no wicca 201 books? because once you find the basics of wicca, all you can do to advance is to research the roots of wicca - shamanism, ceremonial magick, qabala, green witchcraft, mythology, philosophy, runes, tarot, eastern mysticism, etc... hope this helps. when i first heard someone describe it this way, it was like a lightbulb came on in my head.

[Rain Gnosis]

Read work by Buckland, Gardner, Valiente, Fortune, and the Farrars. Go back to older books such as Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft, The Witch's Bible Compleat (the Farrars), Witchcraft for Tomorrow (Doreen Valiente), Drawing Down the Moon (Margot Adler), and so on. These folks were around when Wicca was still more traditional then eclectic, and their books thus will provide a better representation of that then the books now. Though they aren't Wiccan, you might also delve into the subjects that contributed to Wicca in it's infancy - look at work by Crowley, the Kybalion, and in subjects such as alchemy, Qabalah, tarot, and paths such as Thelema, Hermeticism, Buddhism, and Kemeticism.

And incidentally, I think you have a great idea. I read many "modern" Wiccan books and didn't connect to Wicca as well as I did when I read the older ones that were more traditional so to speak. Of course one still needs to be in a coven to belong to a tradition, but these books allow you to be a solitary and get closer to traditional Wicca even so.

Outside of older books and authors, get Amber Laine Fisher's Philosophy of Wicca - it's an excellent modern book with in depth discussion of Wiccan philosophies and one of my favourites. I've heard Elements of Ritual by Deborah Lipp is another modern book that is excellent and in depth.

[Ben Gruagach]

Here are my suggestions. Keep in mind that anything you read should be taken with a grain of skeptical salt. Llewellyn isn't the only publisher that puts out books that have some rather questionable claims in them (in particular when it comes to the history of Wicca or modern witchcraft.)

Anything by Marian Green (she presents mostly a solitary witchcraft path... I believe she doesn't consider herself to be Wiccan.)

Paul Huson's "Mastering Witchcraft" (but be aware he presents a witchcraft that tends to be drawn from things like Margaret Murray's discredited theories, and what many people might consider "negative" stuff.)

Gwyn's "Light from the Shadows: A Mythos of Traditional Witchcraft" (a newer book on non-Gardnerian-derived witchcraft.)

Doreen Valiente and Evan Jones' "Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed." (This is a presentation of the witchcraft tradition promoted by the late Robert Cochrane. Evan John Jones has other books out on this particular tradition including "The Roebuck in the Thicket" which I just picked up myself the other day and have started to read. Very interesting. Evan John Jones also wrote, with Chas S. Clifton, "Sacred Mask, Sacred Dance" which focusses more on mask work in ritual, but again has info on the Cochrane tradition too.)

If you haven't read Janet and Stewart Farrar's books (in particular their "Witches Bible") you should check them out too.

For lots of excellent historical material on how ancient magick was practiced, I can't recommend Hans Dieter Betz's "The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation" nearly enough. It's a collection of English translations of magical spells, prayers, invocations, etc. from way back, some from papyri dating back into the BCE era. Lots of inspiration there.

You might find Ellen Cannon Reed's "The Heart of Wicca" of interest. I have a lot of problems with this particular book, as the author makes a lot of claims and assumptions which I'm not sure hold up to scrutiny, but I'm told it does represent the more "traditional" Wiccan viewpoint well.

And finally, while I know you've said you've already read a lot of Llewellyn stuff, you might find Raven Grimassi's books to be of interest. He presents a more "traditional" approach, closer to what Gardner presented in his books than some books on Wicca, but again he makes a lot of questionable claims (in particular with regards to history.)

I'm sure if I do a bit more research, I could come up with even more suggestions. But these should keep you busy for a while, and most of these books and authors are pretty easy to find in stores or on Amazon.com/Amazon.co.uk/Amazon.ca.

[Starssobrite]

Thanks you all gave me great ideas and a lot of books to look into. As for the path I'm leaning towards I'm still not sure, wicca seams to lose of a religion for me but everything I read seems to be wicca this wicca that It's hard to differentiate between anything else.

Melissa

[Rain Gnosis]

Yep, you'll find that with a lot of the more modern stuff out there. The older books tend to have a stricter view of what is Wiccan.

[Marchosias]

Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft,

Hey, something Marchosias has actually read! :bigredgri

Thats a pretty neat book, easily readable with a coherant layout.

9 out of 10 Satanists agree, BCBoW is the book to read! :lol:

[Rain Gnosis]

Yeah, it's definitely a workbook. Some people find it a bit dry, though I think it's a worthwhile one. I find the Farrars' Bible Compleat to be heavy too but it's also one I'd consider an essential.

[Marchosias]

Yeah, it's definitely a workbook. Some people find it a bit dry, though I think it's a worthwhile one. I find the Farrars' Bible Compleat to be heavy too but it's also one I'd consider an essential.

Yeah, I can certainly see how it can be dry. Then again, if you are interested in the subject, new information is always juicy. ;)

EDIT: 400th post! :woot:

(I honestly do NOT see how you people have them in the thousands. :lol: )

[Rain Gnosis]

(I honestly do NOT see how you people have them in the thousands. :lol: )

I have a big mouth.

[Ben Gruagach]

Yep, you'll find that with a lot of the more modern stuff out there. The older books tend to have a stricter view of what is Wiccan.

Yeah, eveyone wants to think their version is the "real thing" (which, in a "One True Way" way of thinking, means the rest out there must be false.)

There are some though who thankfully don't fall for this sort of thinking. Wicca without the diversity is just monotheism.

[Rain Gnosis]

Yeah, eveyone wants to think their version is the "real thing" (which, in a "One True Way" way of thinking, means the rest out there must be false.)

Well, I didn't get that impression from Buckland's book or the Farrars' Bible Compleat - the latter especially is pretty flexible and offers info for self-dedication. Even Valiente's Witchcraft for Tomorrow had a self-dedication ritual. If there was "one true way" there wouldn't be the opportunity to self-dedicate. I find especially with the Bible Compleat it is written less about specific rules and guidelines to be followed by the letter and more as a discussion of the reasonings behind the framework they have observed. All this suggests to me is that there's a framework and then an invitation to use that framework as a jumping off point.

Edited to add : Wicca was always a religion based on diversity. Without diversity Wicca simply wouldn't exist at all. As far as I know, Wicca was never monotheism.. mind you, I've met some pretty diverse monotheists.

[Erincelt]

I have a big mouth.
I could be so cruel.. it would be so easy.. lucky for you I've had my coffee and so I'm in a good mood. Hazelnut Vanilla. Yum.

[Rain Gnosis]

I could be so cruel.. it would be so easy.. lucky for you I've had my coffee and so I'm in a good mood. Hazelnut Vanilla. Yum.

Oh yeah, 'cause I made the comment thinking no one would make a smartass remark about it ;)

[Ben Gruagach]

Well, I didn't get that impression from Buckland's book or the Farrars' Bible Compleat - the latter especially is pretty flexible and offers info for self-dedication. Even Valiente's Witchcraft for Tomorrow had a self-dedication ritual. If there was "one true way" there wouldn't be the opportunity to self-dedicate. I find especially with the Bible Compleat it is written less about specific rules and guidelines to be followed by the letter and more as a discussion of the reasonings behind the framework they have observed. All this suggests to me is that there's a framework and then an invitation to use that framework as a jumping off point.

Edited to add : Wicca was always a religion based on diversity. Without diversity Wicca simply wouldn't exist at all. As far as I know, Wicca was never monotheism.. mind you, I've met some pretty diverse monotheists.

I agree that the Farrars, Valiente, and Buckland tend to not be among those who insist their way is the "one true and only" Wicca. I responded to your statement that the older books on Wicca tend to be "more strict" on what is and isn't Wiccan.

There is diversity within those who are following monotheist faiths, too. But then they also have a real problem with each group claiming its way is the "one true and only way," don't they.

[Marchosias]

I have a big mouth.

I wasn't refferring to you so much as...*COUGH*...OLD WITCH....

Getting close to twenty thousand!

Thats amazing!

[Rain Gnosis]

I wasn't refferring to you so much as...*COUGH*...OLD WITCH.

Well to be fair I've used a lot of different nicks before karma came along. I don't think all my usernames would add up to 20k anyway, but they add up to several thousand.

[Marchosias]

You people are nuts. :lol:

(but hey, im still proud of my HUGE post total)

[Haruka2077]

Hey, it's more than I have! And I've supposedly been here a year longer. *shrug*

[SoulFire]

I agree with Rain Gnosis and Ben: read some of the older books. There were very few good books on the Craft when I was starting out 30 years ago. The authors I was required to read included:

Sybil Leek's Diary of a Witch and The Complete Art of Witchcraft
Starhawk's The Spiral Dance
Ed Fitch's A Book of Pagan Rituals (attributed to Herman Slater), Magical Rites from the Crystal Well, and A Grimoire of Shadows
Mike Nichols' The Witches' Sabbats is excellent, IMHO, though it is new (the Sabbats essays, however, were written 30 years ago).
Doreen Valiente's An ABC of Witchcraft, Natural Magic, and Witchcraft for Tomorrow
Paul Huson's Mastering Witchcraft
Victor Anderson's book of Craft and love poetry Thorns of the Blood Rose is classic. There is a new sequel titled Lilith's Garden.

In addition, I'd recommend Marian Green's books: A Witch Alone, Wild Wildcraft, Gentle Arts of Natural Magic, A Calendar of Festivals, and Natural Witchcraft. She has others as well, but they are very basic.

And Old Tradition Craft by Robin Artisan (not Robin Artisson, different author).

Hope this helps.

[raven grimassi]

you might find Raven Grimassi's books to be of interest. He presents a more "traditional" approach, closer to what Gardner presented in his books than some books on Wicca, but again he makes a lot of questionable claims (in particular with regards to history.)

Ouch, Ben. ;)

But I guess there is some comfort to take in being labeled “questionable” as opposed to other descriptions I have seen. And hey, at least I made the list.

Joking aside, if I make people think or question, then I think I have been of some service.

As to the history I present in my books, I like to think of it as a suppressed history as opposed to the account of the victors. The Sicilian folklorist Guiseppe Pitre’ once noted that there are “two histories” - that of the dominators and that of the dominated. He said that they should not be confused with one another. In his own work he set out to “save the memories of the dominated” which “do not coincide with the memories of the dominators” (and I feel that this is what I try and do as well). I imagine time will tell whether I was successful or self-deluded.

Yeah, eveyone wants to think their version is the "real thing" (which, in a "One True Way" way of thinking, means the rest out there must be false.)

I wonder if there is some general misinterpretation at foot here. I know for myself that while I believe in the authenticity and antiquity of the tradition I practice, this does not cause me to think that different traditions are false. Traditions do not have to be old in order to be valid; some just happen to be old.

I liken this to an Old World family tradition of shoemakers who still make shoes in the old tradition. Are these shoes superior to shoes made with new methods? Some might say yes and others no. But is the shoe itself really better, more authentic, or is it just a different shoe? In this light, if a shoe of any type fits and it is comfortable, and gets you down the path, well then wear it and enjoy it.

[Teresa]

Overlook me if I repeat anything others may have already said as I have not taken time to read the posts before mine yet.

I would suggest books by the likes of Doreen Valiente, Sybil Leek, Margot Adler, Raymond Buckland, The Farrars (S and J ),Cat Yronwode, Christopher Penzack, Mike Nichols etc etc
I didn't start out reading books when I began because they were hard to come by way back then. I will say this though IMHO, the older books have alot more depth to them for me. I am not Wiccan , I know a little bit about it but thats all. It is also my opinion that you should read about different paths which will help you understand some things as well as maybe help you form your own opinion as to what you believe and aid you in choosing a path. You have all the time in the world to decide which path you wish to persue.

[SoulFire]

I didn't start out reading books when I began because they were hard to come by way back then.

That's so true. Living in the rural midwest, I didn't have access to a 1/8 of the books that are sold in stores now. Even after my first Craft teacher gave me a reading list of recommended books when I was 13 (in 1978), I had to wait many years to find all of them.

[Desert_Witch]

As to the history I present in my books, I like to think of it as a suppressed history as opposed to the account of the victors. The Sicilian folklorist Guiseppe Pitre’ once noted that there are “two histories” - that of the dominators and that of the dominated. He said that they should not be confused with one another. In his own work he set out to “save the memories of the dominated” which “do not coincide with the memories of the dominators” (and I feel that this is what I try and do as well). I imagine time will tell whether I was successful or self-deluded..

The two Histories is a concept I grew up with. I understand it all too well. As a Native American growing up here in the US. I obviously went to Public School here. Every year i had the history of the Dominant Society taught to me as gospel. I was told that Columbus "discovered" America and that Civilization moved West with the European Cultures and that my Savage Barbaric Ancesters were "saved" by the coming of the White Man. My Traditional Cultural Relogion and the Ways of my People were labled savage and barbaric.
The same events are obviously seen in a very different light by my People. We call what occured during the formation of the US--Genocide. Raven's works have the ring of truth for me because I know that any Dominant Society will write History in a similar fassion to the US Historians. It is Human nature to do so. The Conqorers write the History Books to suit themselves and cast their beliefs and actions in the best light, while simultaniously discrediting the Conqured.

Donadagohvi heyataheisti ale styoh! (Until we meet again, be brave and stay strong!)

[*Rasenna*]

The two Histories is a concept I grew up with. I understand it all too well. As a Native American growing up here in the US. I obviously went to Public School here. Every year i had the history of the Dominant Society taught to me as gospel.

Right, and this applies to various "minority" groups across the board. For example, look at how gays were viewed "historically" up until recent modern times. If we accept only that history, and not the history they write themselves, what conclusions would be drawn? (I'm including negative stereotypes as part of the "official history" as it became the dominators truth, which resulted in the negative and commonly derogatory use of such terms as fag, homo, etc.)

When we look at the "history" of witchcraft we need to remember that it was written by those opposed to the witch. We need alternative histories lest we lose the balance through which the truth is still discernable.

[MacMorrighan]

Does anyone know of a good book(s) that is more traditional witchcraft vrs wicca or any books other then Llewellyn published. I have read mostly Llewellyn published books and find then how do I say repetitive, looking for something different. I'm still in the discover and research stage not really practicing yet

Melissa

Starrsobrite, while I would be the last to refrain from saying that Llewellyn publishes loads of rubbish, they also publish the occassional gem-- a tried-=and-true classic (particularly in the 70s and early 80s). Of those texts thatr I can actually recommend would be the following (please take heart and try not to throw out the baby with the bath water, which is easy when one becomes disillusioned):


The Elements of Ritual: Air, Fire, Water & Earth in the Wiccan Circle -- Deborah Lipp [This is one of those books, that makes so much damned good sense, that I wish it had been available years ago, back when I was a newb! It details many of the whys, rather than the how-tos of casting a ritual Circle. One of the best books I've read in a long while! I hope to see more such as this published in recent years to come! BUY THIS BOOK!!!]
Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft -- Dr. Raymond Buckland [A Gardnerian HP; Buckland was sent to the US upon Gardner's request as a missionary for "the Old Religion" (i.e., Wica). He's the "Father" of American Wicca and Witchcraft.]
Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner -- Scott Cunningham
Living Wicca: A Further Guide for the Solitary Practitioner -- Scott Cunningham
[I]A Grimoire of Shadows -- Ed Fitch [Outer Court material; a historic text in the developement of American Paganism.]
Magical Rites from the Crystal Well -- Ed Fitch [Ditto; Outer Court material.]
Crafting the Art of Magic -- Aiden Kelley [Again, more Inner Court material. It's a textual analyses of the Gardnerian BOS which, according to Gardnerian HP Charles Clark (http://www.thewica.co.uk/Charles%20Clark%20Article.htm), Gerald gave the owner of Llewellyn Pub. permission to publish the Gardnerian BOS. This book is to be re-published, shortly-- and if Aidan is reading this, I'd love a freebie, being a truly penniless Pagan-- under the title of Inventing Witchcraft, by Thoth Pub. in the UK.! It will make use of far more recent research, and will also include the material which was omitted by the publisher during its initial publication. This book represents one of the first historographies on modern Paganism, thus, it should also be under the WICCAN/PAGAN HISTORY section. Be that as it may, as highly as a recommend this text due to the extracts of Gardnerian material, it should be tempered with this Critical Review (http://www.wildideas.net/temple/library/frew.html) of the text!]
Circles, Groves, & Sanctuaries -- Dan & Pauline Campanelli [A lovely look, and explaination, of modern Pagan altars!]
The Complete Book of Incense, Oils & Brews -- Scott Cunningham
Incense: Crafting & Use of Magickal Scents -- Carl F. Niel
Cunningham's Encyclopedia of Crystal, Gem & Metal Magick -- Scott Cunningham


Also, please do not be tempted to confuse Fluff Bunny Witchcrap (or "Neo-Wicca") with real "Wican" Witchcraft! The two are far different.

Now, if you have an interest in non-Wiccan Witchcraft, I would recommend the following texts (with an especial emphesis on my personal hero, Doreen Valiente):


Spells & How They Work -- Janet & Stewart Farrar
Witchcraft for Tomorrow -- Doreen Valiente
[I]An ABC of Witchcraft Past & Present -- Doreen Valiente
Natural Magic -- Doreen Valiente
Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed -- Even John Jones, with Doreen Valiente
The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism -- Shelley Rabinovitch and James Lewis [A very well research text by various Pagan scholars (i.e. Pagans that happen to have advanced degrees). It also includes the little known propper companion piece to The Charge of The Goddess, by Doreen Valiente, The Charge of The God.]
The Key of Solomon (Clavicula Salomonis) -- S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers Translated and edited from manuscripts at the British Museum
The Goetia: The Lesser Key of Solomon the King (Clavicula Salomonis Regis) -- Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers
777 and Other Qabalistic Writings of Alesister Crowley -- A.C.
Ritual Magick of the Golden Dawn -- [ed.] Francis King
Lady Rhea's Enchanted Candle Spells: How to Carve, Glitter, & breathe Life into your Enchanted Candle [First Ed., Completely Revised Version of, "The Enchanted Candle" also by Lady Rhea] -- Lady Rhea
The Enchanted Candle: Crafting & casting Magickal Light -- Lady Rheah, with Eve LeFey
The Healing Craft: Healing Practices for Witches & Pagans -- Janet & Stewart Farrar, and Gavin Bone


Good luck on your Path!

[Nemesis Descending]

Um....no offense intended but the original request was for books on traditional Witchcraft/Wicca, and I hardly think that Cunningham's books are about traditional Craft. He was the King of PIOOYAW (pull it out of your a** Wicca). I'd hate to see a true seeker of traditional Craft misdirected to Cunningham.

[Desert_Witch]

Um....no offense intended but the original request was for books on traditional Witchcraft/Wicca, and I hardly think that Cunningham's books are about traditional Craft. He was the King of PIOOYAW (pull it out of your a** Wicca). I'd hate to see a true seeker of traditional Craft misdirected to Cunningham.


Um...No offense intended here ether, but Cunningham held a second degree in my Trad and the third in about three others before he died. he left my Trad calling it "Livingroom Wicca". An accusation I cannot refute, unfortunatly. His work is a how too at the most basic denominator. he leaves out all the Trad Wicca dogma he believed to be bulls***! While he does preach all sweetness and light, I can point out public works of his that containe plenty of info on Curses etc. Scot's life was full of hardships I for one am glad I do not have to face, and so who can blame him for concentrating on light and goodness in order to bring more of that into his life? Or for recomending his readers do the same, rather than suggest they curse their neighbor for playing loud misic?
I read loads of Cunningham when I was a newb, and I did not turn into a fluffy wuss. Just read my posts regarding the Rede of Hekate if you want some proof of that. I recomend Cunningham for anyone starting on their Path.

[Nemesis Descending]

I read loads of Cunningham when I was a newb, and I did not turn into a fluffy wuss. Just read my posts regarding the Rede of Hekate if you want some proof of that. I recomend Cunningham for anyone starting on their Path.

I didn't say that Cunningham's material has no value, I just said it's not traditional Craft. A request for suggested good books on traditional Craft was what started this thread off. I'm just pointing out that Cunningham doesn't fit the bill.

[Desert_Witch]

I didn't say that Cunningham's material has no value, I just said it's not traditional Craft. A request for suggested good books on traditional Craft was what started this thread off. I'm just pointing out that Cunningham doesn't fit the bill.


In what way?

[SoulFire]

...he left my Trad calling it "Livingroom Wicca". An accusation I cannot refute, unfortunatly. His work is a how too at the most basic denominator. he leaves out all the Trad Wicca dogma he believed to be bulls***!

You've just cited several good reasons why Cunningham's books do not fit the bill of "Traditional Wicca/Witchcraft". Whether he himself was a Traditionalist or not is not the issue. His books, however, are not Traditional. This should be obvious. I would call them "neo-Wiccan". Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

Does this mean that Cunningham's books hold no value? No, of course not. That's a completely separate discussion. I myself love his book Magical Herbalism and recommend it as required reading to my students.

A good article on the subject of Traditional vs. non-Traditional, by Mike Nichols, is "Reflections on Old Guard Paganism" (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7280/oldgard.html).

Nichols cites the publication of Starhawk's The Spiral Dance and Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon as representing major shifts in thought from Traditional to non-Traditional. I'd argue, however, that Cunningham's Wicca: a Guide for the Solitary Practitioner and Silver Ravenwolf's To Ride a Silver Broomstick: New Generation Witchcraft actually better exemplifies New Guard Paganism or neo-Wicca. As Raven Grimassi has written:

"Wicca, in America, is now becoming almost two separate religions. Many Wiccans now refer to themselves as Traditional Wicca, British Traditional Wicca, Old Guard, Elder Wicca, Traditional Witchcraft, Hereditary Fam Trad etc. to distinguish themselves from the general neo-pagan Wicca movement. This type of distinction is unnecessary in Britain as they retain a clear understanding of what Wicca is.

"With the advent of such authors as Scott Cunningham, Wicca took on elements of New Age philosophy. The decade of the 1980's saw many changes and adaptations within the Wiccan Religion. Self-Initiation began to replace Initiation at the hands of experienced practitioners. Tenets of belief were deleted or modified to suit personal needs, tastes, and politics. Wicca became two almost separate religions, split in two: Elder Wicca and Neo-Wicca.

"The Focus on the self (as in New Age philosophy) was not a view originally held within traditional Wicca. Wiccan beliefs and practices arose from a sense of community within the early clans. To 'go it alone' was not a traditional Wiccan value. To follow the well-worn path to its end, and then proceed to find one's way, was a traditional Wiccan value."

"Neo-wicca began as seekers from other religions came to the Old Religion in search of a spiritual path more suited to their individual needs. This was largely due to the New Age philosophy influencing Wicca, which basically promoted: Do your own thing, no pre-set rules, do whatever feels right."

--Raven Grimassi, The Wiccan Mysteries, Llewellyn Publications, 1997

An unknown author has written:

"American Eclectic Wicca is sometimes used to refer to a broad range of individuals or groups that have based their philosophy, rituals and practices on the published works of such modern American witches as Scott Cunningham and StarHawk. Often American Eclectics take the curious and contradictory position that Wicca is a completely modern religion created by Gerald Gardner but that the beliefs and practices of Wicca are completely individualistic, therefore nobody can define 'Wicca' for others. In general, American Eclectics emphasize spontaneity and tend to downplay the importance of such concepts as Oaths, Initiations, Lineage and Tradition, or even to discard those concepts altogether."

I take issue with only one thing: I do not feel that "StarHawk" fits the description of AE or OG, as she makes it CLEAR in The Spiral Dance that Witchcraft is an initiatory tradition. (And I can provide quotes, if anyone doubts this.) She also makes it clear that the rituals in her book are based on the Faery Tradition, in which she was initiated. Reclaiming also is initiatory, though some people will tell you it is not. Unfortunately, because of the shamanistic aspect of Faery and Reclaiming, Starhawk has been lumped with AE. (Even more ironic, many people assume she is a "radical" man-hating "Dianic". I've heard from her neighbors that Starhawk laughs at that one.) I'd argue that Traditional Witchcraft has more in common with the shamanistic approach than is currently recognized. Just my 2 cents. I'm going off on a tangent now, so I'd better stop...

:rant:

B*B,
SF

[Kalika]

I skimmed, so I don't know for sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but also check out the Books portion of the MW website, and do searches on google, Ask Jeeves, MSN, Dogpile, etc on Witchcraft - you will find a lot of the same things you have already seen most likely, but some things may suprise you as well.

[RainInanna]

Nichols cites the publication of Starhawk's The Spiral Dance and Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon as representing major shifts in thought from Traditional to non-Traditional. I'd argue, however, that Cunningham's Wicca: a Guide for the Solitary Practitioner and Silver Ravenwolf's To Ride a Silver Broomstick: New Generation Witchcraft actually better exemplifies New Guard Paganism or neo-Wicca.

I agree entirely.

And by the way, I always enjoy your posts. Somehow you always manage to give a response that is thoughtful, clear, and educating without coming off as snarky or elitist.

[Desert_Witch]

I agree with you SoulFire that Scott does not present Trad Wicca teachings or Trad Witch teachings at all in his work. But I recomend them for his basic magical how too info Etc. And I recomend them all for that purpose. Just because a book, say about Herbalism is by an Author that is not presenting Trad views does not invalidate what that Author is teaching. I objected to Scott being wholy dissmissed, and his work being defined as of no value to Trad Crafters. Do you feel that his stuff is not worth a read by any serious Trad Crafter? Or do you feel that his stuff has some value and deserves to be on the "recomended reading list"? I think there is a place for him in my library, hence, I recomend him.

[SoulFire]

I agree with you SoulFire that Scott does not present Trad Wicca teachings or Trad Witch teachings at all in his work. But I recomend them for his basic magical how too info Etc. And I recomend them all for that purpose. Just because a book, say about Herbalism is by an Author that is not presenting Trad views does not invalidate what that Author is teaching. I objected to Scott being wholy dissmissed, and his work being defined as of no value to Trad Crafters. Do you feel that his stuff is not worth a read by any serious Trad Crafter? Or do you feel that his stuff has some value and deserves to be on the "recomended reading list"? I think there is a place for him in my library, hence, I recomend him.

I would not dismiss his books summarily. Although I do not regard his work as "Traditional", I do think he should be read, and I have my favorites by him (as I'm sure we all do) that I require my students to read including his herbal books but especially Magical Herbalism, as well as his two Earth Power books (and I don't recall the title of the sequel offhand). I love his basic magical how-to in those books, in particular Magical Herbalism. Personally, I love his herbal books more than his Wicca books, but everyone has different tastes. I have noticed that many newbies who start out with his books become confused when they read other authors. I'm not sure what to attribute this to.

B*B,
SF

[Desert_Witch]

I would not dismiss his books summarily. Although I do not regard his work as "Traditional", I do think he should be read, and I have my favorites by him (as I'm sure we all do) that I require my students to read including his herbal books but especially Magical Herbalism, as well as his two Earth Power books (and I don't recall the title of the sequel offhand). I love his basic magical how-to in those books, in particular Magical Herbalism. Personally, I love his herbal books more than his Wicca books, but everyone has different tastes. I have noticed that many newbies who start out with his books become confused when they read other authors. I'm not sure what to attribute this to.

B*B,
SF

Are you reading my mind? That is what I would have said if I could have phrased it that well:lol:!!

To everyone-please just pretend that I said that. (but still give credit to SoulFire)

Let me now change the tone of the post if I may. (If I may not, then douse me in kerosine and strike a match!:lol: ) To everyone-What is the absolute best book for Trad Wicca and what is the best Trad Witch book? And what you liked best about it.


Blessings to all!

[Carla O'Harris]

you might find Raven Grimassi's books to be of interest. He presents a more "traditional" approach, closer to what Gardner presented in his books than some books on Wicca, but again he makes a lot of questionable claims (in particular with regards to history.)

Ouch, Ben. ;)

But I guess there is some comfort to take in being labeled “questionable” as opposed to other descriptions I have seen. And hey, at least I made the list.

Joking aside, if I make people think or question, then I think I have been of some service.

As to the history I present in my books, I like to think of it as a suppressed history as opposed to the account of the victors. The Sicilian folklorist Guiseppe Pitre’ once noted that there are “two histories” - that of the dominators and that of the dominated. He said that they should not be confused with one another. In his own work he set out to “save the memories of the dominated” which “do not coincide with the memories of the dominators” (and I feel that this is what I try and do as well). I imagine time will tell whether I was successful or self-deluded.


"Making a lot of questionable claims when it comes to history" is a pretty serious claim in and of itself, and I think deserving of greater documentation if we are to take the claim seriously. It sounds on its face like an alternative theory of history that he doesn't like.

I think your distinction between dominator and dominated histories is very important. And as Rasenna pointed out, we would lose much if challenges to the dominator history were not raised.

[MacMorrighan]

Um....no offense intended but the original request was for books on traditional Witchcraft/Wicca, and I hardly think that Cunningham's books are about traditional Craft. He was the King of PIOOYAW (pull it out of your a** Wicca). I'd hate to see a true seeker of traditional Craft misdirected to Cunningham.

This is precisely why I qualified my endorsement of Cunningham with the addendum that anyone very new with is books wouldn't know what to do with them. I'd hardly consider that a sincere seeker would be misdirected by Cunningham, such qualifications considered. Neitrher would I call him "the King of PIOOYAW"-- thids designation certainly belongs to those that simply don't know what to do with his books.

[Nemesis Descending]

This is precisely why I qualified my endorsement of Cunningham with the addendum that anyone very new with is books wouldn't know what to do with them.

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time but you've got to be kidding. Anyone with even minimal brain function can easily understand anything Cunningham ever published.

[MacMorrighan]

Hmmm... It occurs to me, this morning, that the differentiation I initially made was not observed by evewryone-- Readers seemed to be under the impression that I was recommending Cunningham as Traditional Wicca: I wasn't. Indeed, if this had been the case I wouldn't have bothered to have listed Kelly's initial historiograph, Crafting The Art of Magic! Please read what I wrote one more time. I was making a distinction between the witchcrap published by Lewellyn, and the actually good books they spit out, also, on the rare occassion.

While, in my second selection of books, I stuck with non-Wiccan Traditional Witchcraft in variou forms, rather than so-called "Traditional Wicca". Indeed, it should have been apparent from the beginning that if I had been disclosing texts concerned with Trad. Wicca, I would have recommended many more books, primarily by the Farrars! (In that vein, if anyone's not read their more recent Progressive Witchcraft-- do so!!! It's brilliant!)

[MacMorrighan]

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time but you've got to be kidding. Anyone with even minimal brain function can easily understand anything Cunningham ever published.

Well, did you have time to read my qualification of his work? I am firm in what I wrote. Indeeed, my reasons foir qualifying it are simply. After all, do you REALLY want to see more Traditions of the Cute and Cuddly Unicorn Friends flopping about as so-called "Wicca". So yes, not everyone would know what to do with them, particularly the material on developing one's own Tradition. This is, hence, why I have said that a grounding in Traditionalism is so important, so that they aren't mis-informed about what is, and ias not, Traditionalism. Often the newb will go in believing that the first book they read is presenting Traditional Wicca, only to becme sorely disillusions. It would be a treagedy for a newb to draw off of this, unthinkingly or mistakenly. Unless, of course, you'd rather the newb misuse Cunningham'sa good material... But, I doubt that you would. :cheers:

[MacMorrighan]

Someone mentioned, earlier, that Cunniungham wrote some very in-depth publically available stuff, such as dealing with curses, or what have you. Where might one find this? Where were they published, etc.? Of course, I'm pressuming that it's not something I may already own.)

[Desert_Witch]

Someone mentioned, earlier, that Cunniungham wrote some very in-depth publically available stuff, such as dealing with curses, or what have you. Where might one find this? Where were they published, etc.? Of course, I'm pressuming that it's not something I may already own.)


I think it's in a couple of his books. He mentions somthing about including them for "academic compleatness" or some such. They are suppused to be old curses or somthing. Chances are you probably do own it. If you were hoping for Cunninghams Compleate Book of Hexing and Cursing I am sorry I got your hopes all up. I will try to make time to see if I can find some of it so I can list it here for ya. But what do you mean, in-depth. Many of his works are very compleate, with toms of little entries about many stones etc. However, nothing I know of his could be called complicated. That is why I recomend him to beginners.

[MacMorrighan]

If you were hoping for Cunninghams Compleate Book of Hexing and Cursing I am sorry I got your hopes all up.

Awe, darn it to heck, anyway! :deviltail

But what do you mean, in-depth. Many of his works are very compleate, with toms of little entries about many stones etc. However, nothing I know of his could be called complicated. That is why I recomend him to beginners.

Oh, I said "in-depth", because I thought that was the word used in the posting which initially brought it up in the first place. :whistle:

[Desert_Witch]

Oh, I said "in-depth", because I thought that was the word used in the posting which initially brought it up in the first place. :whistle:

Not in-depth like that, more like-He covers all the beginners bases when it comes to Herbs, Stones Etc. It's not the same as walking through the fields with a teacher or anything, but not a bad second. My Student is just breaking into some of his Herb Books right now so my house reeks of incense right now, and she left hours ago!:lol: Oh, the crap we go through for our Students...