What are your thoughts on Jesus and Mary?

[Crystal_Raye]

So what does everone think of Jesus and the Virgin Mary? Were they incarnations of the Lord and Lady? Were they powerful witches? Or are they the reason for all the religious hatred in the world?

[Sparrow]

I think Jesus was just a nice hippy like guy, probably with some fairly good healing powers. I don't really know much about Mary.

[VelvetBlade]

I, too, think Jesus was a pretty kewl guy....certainly one who felt strongly about his beliefs and chose to teach those beliefs to others.

As far as Mary is concerned, I think Mary was created to help appease those who believed in the Goddess trads, in order to make their transition to christianity less "painful" so to speak.

These are just my personal thoughts..I have nothing to back them up...lol

~AW

[Traknavar]

I think Jeus was a normal man that had a tremendous cosmic consciousness experiance or spiritual awakening, whatever you want to call it, and gained great insight from that experiance. He then tried to explain it and the only vocabulary he had availible at the time to do it was with the word God. By saying 'son of God', he meant 'nature of God' and this was misinterpreted as the actual son of God. And he then tried to help people become enlightened like him by following his example of the way he lived his life. Of course he was promptly killed for claiming to be anything remotely close to the divine, afterall...God is suppose to be some beneficent fatherlike, king figure that is unapprochable and unknowable by those theologies at the time and still today in many ways.

Mary...I haven't really given her much thought. I find it interesting to say that she was just created by the fathers of Christianity to serve some purpose of theirs. I could almost buy that but I don't think it had much to do with converting people that believed in Goddesses since I don't think the Hebrew religion at the time did, not sure on that though. I find it more likely that Mary was just an unwed mother and they certianly couldn't have the mother of Jeus being portrayed as a woman who had sex before marriage so they just make up for it by saying she was virgin.

The simplest possiblity is most often the right one but humans have a way of always trying to find something that isn't really there because we have a hard time just accepting things as being dull and obvious.

[Chanda]

I agree with everyone that says Jesus was someone with knowledge of the healling arts and most likely had experienced his spiritual awakening (buddhists believe he was something like a Buddha).

As for Mary, I agree that she was a figure used by the church to help the conversion of people. I read somewhere that she didnt play such a large role in the early days of Christianity, and was added later on.

However, she can not be dismissed as a "puppet" of the church. Her influence is enormous. One just has to look at all the churches built for her, at the enourmous following she has both in South America and Europe. I have spent sometime watching the statues of Mary in Catholic churches around Europe, you can feel and see her influence on the people that come to honor her.

The people that "created" her, probably thought they were being really smart in manipulating the beliefs of people to get them into the church (more revenue!). I think they were the ones being manipulated...

Just my 2cents.

Peace,
Chanda.

[Flar's Freyja]

I see Mary as a goddess, the loving mother of all, and Jesus as a god in his own right. I don't buy the salvation thing at all, but I do equate him with gods like Odhinn who received wisdom after experiencing a shamanic death.

If they were to be compared to the Lord and Lady, I would have to pair Jesus with Mary Magdalene rather than Mary his mother. She was his right-hand woman and there has even been speculation that they were married.

[VelvetBlade]

I see Mary as a goddess, the loving mother of all, and Jesus as a god in his own right. I don't buy the salvation thing at all, but I do equate him with gods like Odhinn who received wisdom after experiencing a shamanic death.

If they were to be compared to the Lord and Lady, I would have to pair Jesus with Mary Magdalene rather than Mary his mother. She was his right-hand woman and there has even been speculation that they were married.

I agree with your thoughts on Mary Mag...i think she got a bum rap...

~AW

[Rick]

It's basically just a variation on the Mithra theme.

[SylverStar]

I too believe what Freyja and AngelWitch said

[Aidron]

My two ounces of pixie dust, for what it's worth:

Jesus was most likely a flesh and blood human who like so many in history did have some sort of spiritual awakening. He may have been a psychic, much like Edger Cacye, and used his unique talents to heal and very much had a personality like Mother Teresa. However, politicians of the day (perhaps they were Christian and absorbed him into their culture for fear of his growing reputation) probably manipulated him in some way to further their own agenda.

As for Mary, I think she is merely an incarnation of the goddess. Divinity in female form has existed long before divinity in any male form, and she will be the last to go in my opinion. Mary is merely another example of how the female has refused to lay down and either aggressively or passively appeared throughout all religions and all spiritual paths in history.

As for Mary Mag (and I'm way too tired to remember how to spell her name properly), I also think her reputation has been soiled. It was her hard work I have personally grown to believe from various texts and what have you that she worked hard and humbley to provide money for all the other saints who did lil' more than probably offer lip service.

[Rae ShadowWolf]

I never gave Mary much thought, but my view on Jesus was that he was a Prophet and a Healer.

[Chanda]

I am guilt of never having given Mary Magdalena much thought. I guess I'll need to do some reading into it. The thought of seing Jesus C. and Mary M. as God and Goddess is interesting... To me they have always been just people. As for V. Mary, I do see her as a Mother type Goddess.

Off to do some reading...

[SylverStar]

I haven't really given Mary Magadelene much thought either, which is kind of odd because my real name is a variation of hers.

[Mnemosyne]

Some of you have brought up some really fabulous points. :thumbsup:

Like many of you believe, I believe that Jesus was a man who possessed great healing powers. Hhmmm perhaps he was using magic. And as for Mary, I think that she was given such a powerful role to appease the people who were into goddess worship. After all, it's easier to convert people to the new religion if the the new religion has something in common with the people's former religion. And that's why I think that Christianity has all the saints; the saints's specific attitributes remind me of those of pagan gods and goddesses.

[Flar's Freyja]

Some of you have brought up some really fabulous points. :thumbsup:

Like many of you believe, I believe that Jesus was a man who possessed great healing powers. Hhmmm perhaps he was using magic. And as for Mary, I think that she was given such a powerful role to appease the people who were into goddess worship. After all, it's easier to convert people to the new religion if the the new religion has something in common with the people's former religion. And that's why I think that Christianity has all the saints; the saints's specific attitributes remind me of those of pagan gods and goddesses.

Not only are they similar, some are one and the same such as St. Brighid. And check out this thread:

Fortuna, Wyrd and St. Agatha (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=24241&highlight=Fortuna)

[Aidron]

I believe the saints were a way of incooperating polytheism into christianity, as the very concept is deeply rooted into human cultures throughout the globe, so even christians probably had some desire for it in one aspect or another, and also, to make the transistion from paganism to christianity a smoother one, though I am not by any means saying their intentions were noble on this.

[Sylv]

For me Jesus was someone who had a vision and wanted to change the world.
Mary....well, I was Catholic before I was an atheist (I'm a pagan now) and I still love Mary. Even after I became an atheist I prayed to her (often with the rosary) and now I have a little statue of her on my vanity. She helped me learn how to keep my temper and helped me through my atheist days (I realize that sounds like a contradiction, lmao). I wouldn't call her my matron but perhaps a spirit friend/teacher-we're definitely close and probably always will be. There are up sides to Catholicism!

[Ben Trismegistus]

I'm pretty sure that the Biblical account of Mary's role in Jesus's life was written specifically so that Jesus's story would jive with the ancient Hebraic prophets.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)

In order for the Paulines to sell Jesus as the Messiah, his story had to fit the prophets' descriptions of what the Messiah's life would be like. So there's your virgin.

(although I wonder why it never bothered anybody that Jesus' name isn't Immanuel)

[Chanda]

Or that Mary supposedly had 2 children already, before Jesus was born. I have never seen a written reference to this fact... only heard it from someone, somewhere.

I think its not so much that she was a virgin, it is about immaculate conception... that is to say, without sin.

[Aidron]

I watched a program regarding Mary, and the thoughts on it were:

She was not an actual virgin, but by the definitions of the time, if you had not participated in the act of sex while married, a woman was considered a virgin up until she gave herself to her husband.

This would definately explain how Mary could have gotten pregnant if it went down like so:

Her and Joseph made sweet monkey love.

They got married when they realized she was pregnant or just anytime before the birth.

They did not have sweet monkey love until she gave birth.

She gave birth, thus making her a virgin mother.

[Chanda]

Virgin on a tecnicality, I like that...

[mol]

Mary got pregnant out of wedlock. (Thats also why they had their baby in a barn, ya know....they werent homeless.) Anyway, rather than be stoned for being a whore of Babylon she and Joseph said that Jesus was the Messiah and that it was an immaculate conception. A tall tale, but it was worth a shot I guess. it worked....for Joseph and Mary. However, poor Jesus was now destined to walk in a martyr's shoes.

Jesus was a messiah. He brought a message of peace. He brought healing...but most importantly. He brought love with him. And he lived that Love until the bitter end.

Love is the Law!

93 93/93

[Ben Trismegistus]

Mary got pregnant out of wedlock. (Thats also why they had their baby in a barn, ya know....they werent homeless.)

Well, that's not entirely true. Accordingly to the Biblical story, the Romans called a census of the Judeans, in order to make sure that everyone was being taxed properly. So, all the Judeans had to return to their place of birth to be included in the census. In Joseph's case, that happened to be Bethlehem.

Since there were a lot of out-of-towners in Bethlehem for the census (presumably), there was, so to speak, no room at the inn.

The rest of your story sounds right, however.

I read an interesting theory that Thomas the Apostle may have been Jesus's twin brother (since the word "Thomas" means "twin" - his real name was Didymos). I don't see how that's possible, but it's an interesting theory.

[Ceallach]

I happen to agree with most opinions on this subject. Jesus was a great teacher and was enlightened in his own way. I've believed for a while that teachers were brought to this world to lead people in the way that they would understand it best. Jesus, Buddha, Muhommad(?), Mary, all these people teach the basic love principles and the people who follow them are at peace and find rest in their beliefs. Each part of the world seems to have one major "god" or "savior" that leads them to happiness, but in any other part of the world, that "savior" wouldn't fit the needs of that culture. And in my opinion that is where Jesus and Mary fit in. They fulfill the spiritual needs of the christian culture.

Just my two cents.

Bright Blessings!

[Brenners]

I believe Jesus was a real person who had reached a supreme level of psychic awareness as healer, prophet, and was essentially a witch. I believe Jesus believed in gnosis, in finding the truth within as he had done, that's why when he said those who believe in him would enter the kingdom of God, what he really meant was all those who seek as he has, who search for a greater enlightenment, will find God, in other words, truth. Those are along the lines of how I view Jesus, I like Jesus, it's too bad Christians are busier worshipping him instead of his message, the message behind the message.

:p

For me Mary of course is the mother of Jesus, no bones about that, she really existed. As far as whether or not she was really a virgin, I think that's false and is only thrown into the bible to appeal to Pagans.

[Jenne]

Jeez...I was sooo brainwashed into Christianity and its teachings that it is STILL hard for me (after what? 10 years away from "The Faith"!?) to wrap my mind around this. It's like asking me where we go after we die...I've really had to search beyond my immediate thoughts of "Heaven, of course!"--which I see as a gut-reaction rather than my current belief system.

Anyhoo, sorry to sidetrack. Mary--definitely believe, a la Mysts of Avalon, that she is the Christian equivalent of our Goddess Mother. The story of the Immaculate Birth is just too parallel to be considered anything else for me.

As for Jesus the man (vs. Jesus the God, born of Mary), I too think he was a great thinker and philosopher in the grassroots fashion back in the day. He started a mystic religion that a band of people glommed onto, wrote about, and then were eventually persecuted for because they were a minority of freaks (like a lot of mystics are accused of being!).

Anyway, that's sort of how I've worked all that out once I got past the Bible. And the Sunday School, and the Vacation Bible School...

[Seren Mara]

I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, just as we all are sons and daughters of God, I believe that he was chosen by God to martyr himself for our sins. I believe he rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven and lives on in Christian hearts, and everyone's minds. I believe he was a prophet, a holy man, a messiah, but most of all, I believe he was sent by God.

And I believe that Mary was his mother. Whether she was a virgin or not is beyond me. I believe she was blessed by being the one to carry Jesus, and be his mother. But I'm not praying to her, that's a Catholic thing.

As for Mary Magdalene, she was a pretty cool girl. Apparently she was a priestess in a temple for Goddess worship before she became one of the female apostles.

[CalliopeHellice]

As someone who NEVER studied the Christian faith, and is a practicing Wiccan, I don't have hang ups over the whole Jesus and Mary belief.

I belief Jesus is an aspect of the God (the whole death/rebirth thing at the Solstice is the same story), and Mary is an aspect of the Goddess (I actually have a small shrine to Her in my room). I've had MANY experience with the Virgin Mary.

[Shadowolff]

Or that Mary supposedly had 2 children already, before Jesus was born. I have never seen a written reference to this fact... only heard it from someone, somewhere.

I think its not so much that she was a virgin, it is about immaculate conception... that is to say, without sin.
The Urantia Book has some fascinating things to say about the siblings of Jesus, as well as about the whole of his life and much, much, much more. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it certainly is thought-provoking.

It's on-line, all 2000+ pages, I'll look up the address and post later or you could just google.

[Shadowolff]

Aha -- found it: link to The Urantia Book is http://www.ubfellowship.org

[JeweledNight]

I have always believed that Jesus existed and that he was a beautiful man that brought spirituality to a lot of people and was psychic and a healer. As for Mary, I never really thought about who she was, besides a beautiful woman. I've always wanted to learn more about her.

It was my believe in Jesus that originally made it difficult for me to figure out what my true spiritual path was. My parents never ever tried to push or pull me in any direction, but others did. Because I believed in Jesus' existence, I assumed that that meant that I was probably Christian, so I started going to church with a friend when I was in 2nd grade. I won't write out the whole novel about what happened. In a nutshell, I questioned things too much and even back then, it just didn't feel right.

I think that if more people would just take the time to learn more about paganism before assuming that we are all a bunch of hell-raising (ok, there are SOME hell-raisers in here, but that's not the point ;) ) devil-worshipping, baby sacrificing psychotics, there would be a lot less of this pathetic prejudice. If I hadn't stopped and actually went out and done some research myself before deciding what I felt about paganism years ago, I probably wouldn't be who I am today. Being pagan doesn't mean that you deny Jesus' existence.

But, of course, I'm stating what is obvious to us...

[TNWhite_Wizard]

In all my studies and conversations about Jesus, I have seen and heard many variations. From what I have gathered I would say Jesus was a great master of the craft. In one particular instance of him healing the blind man comes to mind. The healing of the blind man to see has been told many ways, but the most believable was in the film "Jesus of Nazareth". In the film Jesus healed the blind man by washing his eyes out with natural paste like substance made of earth and other herbs, after rubbing it into the mans eyes and washing them out in the public pool in the temple, the man was able to see. This caused wide spread panic in the higher religious circle of the time, because it took away the control of the people from them.
Jesus was a great master of the craft and a great teacher of nature. I believe when he made the statement in the temple, "For I and my father are one in the same." I feel it was misinterpreted in the translation and should have been more to this statement: "For I and my Fater and Mother are one in the same." this fits more with the great trinity. (Father, Mother and Child), but when Neo Christianity took control a more masculine overtone was used. When studying christianity you will find that females did not play a very important role in church. Most of them as portrayed in the bible are shown to be of very bad character.
Mary on the other hand I feel was and is our beloved Goddess, used as a mortal icon to explain the nature of Jesus.

These are strictly my thoughts on the subject...

Bright Blessings to all.........

[Gwynna Starr]

Well said, White Wizard. :)

[Crystal_Raye]

Just going to refresh this thread for the newbies.

[Phi]

It is interesting to me that so many want to deny the virginity of Mary.
Now I don't say this because I need to think she was virgin.
I say this because it seems to matter to YOU whether she was virgin.

And my interest is this: Do you still equate purity of spirit with virginity?

Why?
How does a woman's sexuality, a perfectly normal and beautiful sexuality,
make her less pure?
And the obvious other question is: is a virginal man more pure than a non virginal man?

[valis]

i believe jesus was greek name later assigned to the existence of a essene of qumran who had very different views from what the qumranian would have considered cosmopolitan jews. he probably had a family, almost certainly a brother (james). it is possible he was a messiah in the hebrew sense, not literally the son of god, but one of two expected messiahs to link the kingly and priestly bloodlines the two pillars (jachin & boaz from eygpty borrowed by the hebrews) connected by shalom represented.

however, he threatened the hiearchy of the established hebrew religion at the time. the qumranians did not believe you need four walls and a priest to pray to god, but that as god was everywhere and could be accessed from anywhere. of course a belief such as this would have even threatened pagan Rome. it's also important to remember that crucifixtion was primarily reserved for political dissidents in rome. certainly jesus would have fell into this category. the templars were rumurored to have discouverd scrolls in qumran that would have been written by people closet to jesus. even the dead sea scrolls discovered in qumran this century potrait jesus in a diferent light that the indoctrinated versions of christianity.

peace

[Moon Momma]

It is interesting to me that so many want to deny the virginity of Mary.
Now I don't say this because I need to think she was virgin.
I say this because it seems to matter to YOU whether she was virgin.

And my interest is this: Do you still equate purity of spirit with virginity?

Why?
How does a woman's sexuality, a perfectly normal and beautiful sexuality,
make her less pure?
And the obvious other question is: is a virginal man more pure than a non virginal man?

Before I answer this part, I wanted to say that I agree with most of the people here in that Jesus was a spiritual leader/healer/teacher and Mary is a Christian form of the Goddess.
*edited to add: I actually did a guided Goddess meditation last week and the Goddess presented herself to me in the form of Mary.

Getting to Mary's virginity (I was asked to leave Religion class in my senior year for arguing about this :rolleyes: )... it does not matter to me if she was or not. However, I wonder why Christians feel the need to point it out. Apparently it matters to them. But why? Does her virginity make Jesus' birth more 'special'? Would he not be the icon he is if she wasn't a virgin?

I don't like the implication that non-virginity (?) equals impurity because it would then mean that sex itself is impure, that the act of sexual intercourse sullies a person, male or female.

[Druchii]

I may be getting into trouble on this, but I tend to think it was two people who got caught up in something beyond thier understanding. This is coming from a Catholic guy who knows quite a bit about the two.

[Keith Dragon]

As a recovering Catholic, I have to say that in my life, the further a moved away from Christianity, the more I understood what Jesus was trying to say. Though I am not a practitioner of a particular faith, I am however, very spiritually minded, and consciously have taken responsible for my spiritual growth.

On that note, my view of Jesus is that, Jesus and the Christ are two different things. Jesus is the man, and the Christ is the Universal Consciousness that permeates existence. Jesus was able to open up to this Universal or Christ Consciousness, and in so doing created what is called, Singular Multiplicity, or being the individual, and everything simultaneously. The one thing that Jesus said that caught my attention is "All that I do, you will do, and more." I take this as meaning that he showed us what we are capable of, if we only open up to this Universal Consciousness. By saying he was God, he was saying that he was this Universal Consciousness, and he was by connecting to it, but no more than if you or I opened up to it. This caused the confusion which led the Church to Diefy him. One thing to remember is that Jesus was trying to portray to people that still believed the Earth was flat and the center of the Universe, abstract concepts about the Universe in a way they could understand, and that was the use of parable. Unfortunately, he was taken literally, because it was beyond the scope of the consciousness of the time. Especially when it comes to the Book of Revelations.

In the Book of Revelations, it talks of the Apocolypse and the Second coming. But when you think about it, the entire Christian Religion can only be validated by the destruction of the world, if you take it literally. However, it is my belief that the Book of revelations is also a sort of parable, to explain an abstract concept to us.

What I mean is that the sense of the Apocolypse is a metaphor for the battle we all face within ourselves, between the True and False selves. We are consctantly battling ourselves for control over ourselves, as with addictions, procrastination, judgement sterotyping, etc. It has through the ages been refered to as the War within Yourself. The comes a time when you desire to take responsibility for your soul, to rise above, and be the person you see yourself being. The Second Coming, is when you realize this, and surrender to it, surrender to being Truth at all costs. To seek Truth is to be Truth. This opening up, leads you to the Universal Consciousness, and you feel what is refered to as the rapture.

Also, I want to point out a connection I found. In the Book of revelations, there are seven seals that are opend in order, each releasing aspects of evil, or falsehood. In the end, when the Seventh Seal is opened, so is the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, there are also, Seven Major Chakras, each open in order, and balanced, releasing negative energy, as they are opened up to the 7th Chakra, or Crown, you supposedly open up to the Universal Consciousness. I am studying this concept now. But I believe a connection is here.

In the end, my personal spiritual goal is to open up to this Universal Consciousness, and I find myself analyzing Jesus as to figure out how he did it.

As for Mary, I've come to attach her to the aspect of the Goddess in the Earth.

As for Mary Mag, I believe she was his wife, and they had Children. The Church wanted to diefy Jesus, and they couldn't have him married if they wanted to do that, so the created a smear campaign to vilify her.

Dragon

[Isildae]

I believe that Jesus was more than a man. If anything he was definitely a "Great Magician" and I even go so far as to believe he was the son of a god. He was just doing what Tammuz, Adonis, Osiris, Krishna, Mithras,and Buddha were doing, and he did a pretty damn good job of it too.

I don't believe Mary was an aspect of the Goddess, but I believe she may have had the *Spark* of the Goddess within her. Maybe the Shekinah had a role to play in that, I'm not sure. . .But as Jesus's Mother I do respect her, greatly.

Mary Magdalene is someone I truly resect as well. I believe she may have been Jesus's wife, and had a big part to play in his ministry.

What a radical thinker I am. :rolleyes:

[greenview]

This thread has stirred up things i usually dont discuss but greatly have an oppinion about. Being raised as catholic and dragged (with mother who was searching for absolution and guidence) to churches of all faiths. Because believe me as a small child you realize your differences ,no matter how small they are when your thrust in to a small room to be drilled on your proper religious learning. Which always changed from one church to the other.

First and less discussed is the mary aspects. You seem to forget that society in a whole has forgotten what a miracle is in the first place. Catholics showed thru her virginity that jesus was more than just a man who was born just like everyone else, he was a vessel that was to teach us and inspire us to a new way of life. She was an unwavering support for a son that would stick out and be rejected on regular basic because he was different and choose to be so. It is very easy to go the high road as most people do but he chose the road not taken and farther more taught of its benefits to those that would listen.

I never heard that mary mag.. was his wife. I look at her like all woman. No one is perfect. In days where woman were stoned rather than trusted(which this practice is still being used in countries today). Jesus saw the good in her, didnt see the sin and shame that society sees when looking at a sexual unmarried human being. You have to remember woman have been viewed as property and still are in places. It has nothing to do with love or respect it is total power. Woman have had familys stone them to death over the issues of virginity and such. What ever happened to the saying "The one with out sin may cast the first stone."

I always liked what i heard of jesus in his days of ministry and travel. He lived very humble life. To often people forget(especially those who cram christian views down your throat) what he taught. God was to be in everything. The stones the grass everything. As wiccans we understand that everything has a life force and everything has a definate impact on something else. The rich are no better than the rest of us. They hold no special place in the natural cycle. They dont go to the head of the class. Anyone can worship at any place in this world and be intouch with the devine. I think money and power has greatly affected the way religions have gone. It sadens me to see huge churches and think of all the money that was taken to build this temple when we cant even take care of the temple we live in called earth. I have always tried to live my life with the mado do unto others as you would have done to you. I dont have the right to judge others and proclaim my style or beliefs better than anyone else.

And the thing that really got me beings as catholic and all. And anyone who is or was can tell you that every sunday through out any given year you can hear the same thing like a schedule. The same teachings heard as a child will be the same ones heard if i was to walk in to church right now. Which brings up the my point. I dont want to sit around and listen to someone tell me his oppinion of what someone else thought on what jesus was trying to teach us. Let alone mix in the aspect that jesus has been translated and retranslated not to mention edited for us. I can read the book called the bible and get my own oppinons from it if i am so inclined too. But i choose to do the hard thing by living a life less negative and judgemental of others and more loving and looking more inward to see what and who i really am and how i can benefit this world and my love ones. sorry for spelling and for the length of the rant lolol love all.

[Crystal_Raye]

It is interesting to me that so many want to deny the virginity of Mary.
Now I don't say this because I need to think she was virgin.
I say this because it seems to matter to YOU whether she was virgin.

And my interest is this: Do you still equate purity of spirit with virginity?

Why?
How does a woman's sexuality, a perfectly normal and beautiful sexuality,
make her less pure?
And the obvious other question is: is a virginal man more pure than a non virginal man?

My thoughts exactly. Back in those times men thought women and sex were evil when they are both beautiful things and vital to the survival of life. I personally view both virginity and nonvirginity as sacred and pure.