demon watchers

[zemblin]

I met a luciferian who uses lucifer,satan ,belial,and levthian as watcher/elementals.I was just wondering what watchers you guys call upon.I've noticed that some of the names of demons are the names of some watchers.did they all become"fallen"angels when christianity rose?
by the way i've noticed lots of threads on lilith.the luciferian dude said that her male consort is lucifer and they had baphomet as a son.
well,that's all ,just curious.:)

[zemblin]

now that i think of it all the ''demon'' watchers come from different origins.do any of you use watchers ,each from different cultures?

[mol]

What is your definition of a Watcher?

[DISCOwitch]

Ya I agree, what is the defination of a watcher that you are using in you little questions? But Ne ways I call upon the Watch towers you know North South East West. Well gtg Cyah

[magicbabs]

Only watchers I have heard of are on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

I have too much trouble balancing my check book, paying my bills - listening to advice from my teachers, guides and other individuals - don't have time to mess with Watchers.

Hey, wouldn't we actually be a form of watchers??? Wouldn't a watcher keep an eye on the balance of things???

I have enough trouble dealing with the voodoo and macomba spell work that has been thrown my way. I don't want to mess with Satanic energy....too much for this little soul/entity to deal with this life time....

Babs

[Lilu]

There are many angels who are considered 'watchers' and Lucifer (or Lumial) is considered one of them. I haven't worked with them though.

I am also wondering if you are referring to watchers or watchtowers (which I also know as 'calling the corners'), there is a difference.



Lilu

[Rick]

... when I cast a circle, I invoke the elements that correspond with the particular directions (and these aren't universal, by any means; go with what ya know on that), certain animal spirits & Gods/Goddesses that correspond with the elements/directions, my Ancestors, etc. I also invite anyone else attending to invoke/call/invite any Gods/Goddess, spirits, etc, that they might wish. Having had good Xian folk attend circles in the past, I looked up references re: angels that correspond with the elements/directions (um, the only one I remember is Archangel Michael corresponds to the south). Don't remember anything in the reference about a correspondence re: fallen angels, or demons, as you will; and the book has extensive references to fallen angels. (I think the book was called "The Book of Angels", or "Encyclopedia of Angels", or something like that. Two authors, a male & a female name. I have seen it in the public library). An interesting note is that many angels seem to have dual roles, serving both heaven & hell (at least, there are some on both sides with the same name, & similar functions).

[Emerald Sky]

Regarding Rick's reply:

Earth - Uriel
Air - Raphael
Fire - Michael
Water - Gabriel

[Lilu]

My experience with invoking the archangels for the quarters was that Michael appeared in the South (in the Northern Hemisphere he comes to the North), Gabriel the East (NH = West), Ariel in the North (NH = South) and Raphael in the West (NH = West)

I'd like to discuss the Archangels in a seperate thread if anyone is interested. It's not really related to "demon watchers"

Lilu

[zemblin]

the guardians of the four cardinal points.not neccesarily having to be elementals or guardians of the elements.

[zemblin]

i'm not to sure what my luciferian friend ment when he said watchers.I just use it in rough terms for the guardians of the watchtowers.

[mol]

Ok. The next question I have is.....is your friend a Satanist?

I have never actually heard the term Luciferian.

[zemblin]

he never mentioned anything about satanism.I guess luciferian is like a different sect.satan being more agressive than lucifer.
I was on a site about it ,but i can't find it any more.it took note of how lucifer's aspects in satanism don't include any thing of a violent or chaotic nature and how the other three rulers of hell have hebrew names and lucifer is roman.
if you care to search for it i wish you luck.it was a pretty informative site. :)

[Dragonmother]

To my mind, and without wishing to insult your friend, it sounds to me very much like he has invested his belief in a mish-mash of Kabbalism, novel-writer's universes, and Hollywood icons. It's possible that I am wrong, and he has thought this out more thoroughly than that.
Much of the Chinese pantheon of gods and Godesses were originally characters in ancient novels, and the Voudoun Loas are, half of them, real human beings who have become invested with deistic powers. (I believe, incidently, that we are seeing the same thing happen with Saint Janis Joplin...) But, I have NEVER ever heard of Lilith consorting with any man, or having any son, much less Baphomet, who is really the Goat-god of the Sumerians, turned into a devil by the Hebrews.
The image of Lucifer, the Lord of Light, Son of the Morning, is a beautiful and powerful one. There aren't many other "fallen God" images that are easily acessable to our Xtian society.
As far as his four names he is calling on, they sort of correspond to the Elements;
Lucifer-air, Satan-fire, Belial-earth, and Levethian-water.
My only problem with this "Luciferianism" is the same problem that I have with "Satanism" If you can believe that The Lord of Light was vanquished by Jehova, aren't you actually believing in Jehova?

[Amethyst Rose]

Here's a good article on just what Luciferianism is.... I did a webserch on google for it and it was amazing the different societies that have been associated with Luciferianism -- Knights Templar, Free Masons and Jehova's Witness were the most often mentioned....

Anyway, here you go:

http://www.kki.net.pl/~cforest-/docs/straight.htm

[Dragonmother]

and all too appropriate for these xtian times. Seems like the SHAME that Jehovistic creed placed into society has to be addressed. Many Pagans, and I am one of them, have refused to buy into the pride/shame trap at all. Many other searchers are not so lucky, and these lucifer/ satan ethos' are the result. Any reaction is bettter than no reaction. The image of the proud Morning Star defying the light of day is quite Rock-and-Roll! (But... The Morning Star is Venus, and female... Men! Honestly! ;) )

[mol]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
Here's a good article on just what Luciferianism is.... I did a webserch on google for it and it was amazing the different societies that have been associated with Luciferianism -- Knights Templar, Free Masons and Jehova's Witness were the most often mentioned....

Anyway, here you go:

http://www.kki.net.pl/~cforest-/docs/straight.htm

It seems like any kind of occult material is affiliated in some way with the Masons and the Templars. But, that is a whole topic all on its own. I would like to see some discussion about the Templars in the History forum.

[Myst]

I think there's another bit on Lilith around here somewhere, do a search if you like.

Lilith, at least as far as I've understood, was said to be Adam's first wife. She refused to lie under him and demanded that she be equal to him, so she was cast from Paradise.

and then God made Eve. :)

Lilith was then treated as a demon, as she supposedly spited Adam and especially God. She can be considered a dark Goddess to us, a protector of women and children, and a battle Goddess - somewhat similar to Morrigan or Hecate. :)

[zemblin]

I've read that lucifer is the son of aurora,goddess of the dawn, and that lucifer had two sons.another myth says that lucifer is the brother and son of diana,the moon goddess. all three are from the roman pantheon.one would associate him with the morning star and the other with the sun.
This confused me and I think that I must have missed something along the way.this is sorta off from luciferianism today,but it's still related.

[Rick]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
I think there's another bit on Lilith around here somewhere, do a search if you like.

Lilith, at least as far as I've understood, was said to be Adam's first wife. She refused to lie under him and demanded that she be equal to him, so she was cast from Paradise.

and then God made Eve. :)

Lilith was then treated as a demon, as she supposedly spited Adam and especially God. She can be considered a dark Goddess to us, a protector of women and children, and a battle Goddess - somewhat similar to Morrigan or Hecate. :)

Man, no wonder Adam was evicted from the garden... after the alimony, he couldn't afford those fancy digs anymore...

[Myst]

hehe Rick

zemblin : don't get too confused. lots of different myths exist. The Lucifer/Diana thing is particularily popular, but retold various ways.

[zemblin]

I was on a site that had different grimoires.I red a little bit of the abremlin the mage grimoire.it had magick squares to give a spirit you summon some sort of form.some of the names in the squares
stuck a bit.one of the names in the first square was uriel,in the second,lucifer,the third,leviathan, and in the fourth satan.I don't study grimoires much,but maybe one of you know something about it

[Emy]

Well on Lucifer and Satan...

In my opionion they are not at all the same... well, Lucifer is the archangel that was sent to "the underworld" by God and therefor is sort of a fallen angel, but has nothing to do with evil of any kind... Satan is something later formed in christianity as someone "sort of" opposite to God, and therefor Satan would represent evil, and God would represent all good things... well ... hmmm hopefully you can follow me here :)

Blessed be

[Sighing_Softly]

Its just dawned on me... the watchers are the "Elojim", angels put on earth to watch over and protect people.. the legends say that the Elohim were given permission to have children with the human women (so was born the race of giants) but they became lustfull, and so they fell to become the "fallen angels". Theres some Jewish mythology for you! Of course, its only that...

[Happydog]

Satan was originally in Hebrew "ha-satan," literally meaning "The Adversary." You can see in the Book of Job that Satan wasn't always the evil opposite of God; he was an angel employed to show God the shortcomings of man. He was kind of like God's secret agent, or undercover police, trying to cast doubt on man's intentions and man's worth. That was part of his job. In the book of Job it's interesting to see that God allows Satan to test Job by doing him all sorts of harm. God specifically gives Satan permission to do it!

So in early Hebrew thought the "ha-satan" was an adversary of Man, not of God; one of God's angels whose business it was to test man to see if he was worthy enough to be one of God's chosen.

Later after the Diaspora, Hebrew teachers came in contact with Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism is a very dualistic religion; they have two major gods, one absolutely good and the other absolutely evil. They are at each other's throats constantly, and life is a battle between Good and Evil. The Jewish people who came into contact with this religion incorporated aspects of it into their religion, and Satan graduated from being "ha-satan," that is, an angel who had a position in God's scheme, to a personalized "Satan," who was the adversary of God and Man.

Christianity, when it came into existence, was very influenced by the Essene sect of Judaism, which also believed in a being of absolute evil, and so they adopted Satan from Judaism and gave him even more powers. Paul in particular seems to endow Satan with a number of powers far outside his former position in Judaism, stating that he is "prince of the powers of the air," and "walks about as a raging lion" hunting for souls.

(Incidentally, Paul is also the one who invented the idea of Jesus dying as a sacrifice for our sins; that doctrine did not exist in Christianity before he proposed it. Having a Satan, an evil opposite of God, promotes his theory because why bother having a Savior if you're not in any danger from anything?)

The medieval church took the Devil ball and ran with it. They wrote out elaborate lists of devils and demons and their ranks in hell. Most of the names of "demons" they wrote down were actually names of Pagan gods and goddesses, since they operated on the theory that any god other than Jehovah was a devil of some sort. But the medieval churchmen are the ones that worked out a systematic list of who was who in Hell and how much power they had. They also worked out lists of angels and who outranked who in Heaven. This was all modeled on the Roman military ranks, of course. (This is why I have trouble believing grimoires or a lot of ceremonial magick things where you have to conjure and abjure this spirit or that or the other; it was all made up by medieval Christians anyway, so what use is it to a Pagan? But that's just MY view.)

So that was how Satan went from being just an employee of God to God's adversary. There are several good books, Elaine Pagel's "History of Satan" among them, that you can look up for more details.

Lilith is the Hebrew version of Lilitu, who was a dark goddess in the Sumerian and Babylonian mythologies. She existed long before the tale of Lilith being the "first Eve." The story about Lilith being Adam's first wife surfaced in (surprise surprise) medieval times, in a book called "The Alphabet of Ben Sirah."

[Armitage]

Sighing: I think those were the 'nephilim', the giants. Elohim is a term for God, methinks.

[Myst]

I think the torture of Job is also in the bible, but reflects that Satan was trying to tempt Job and God let him because God wanted to prove Job would persevere as he was a good man, not because he was into hurting people :)

Then again I remember this from my children's Bible so who knows :)

[The Mad Vitiki]

hay rick wasnt lillith the name of your x or may be she just acts that way
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

[Rick]

Yes, & yes...