Invocation, envovations, ...

[LittleRhiannon]

I decieded that I want to have an esbat this coming up full moon, and I had some questions. First, I've heard that Invoke means call into yourself, which I don't think I'm ready for, and envoke means call into your circle. I have been looking for envocations to adapt or use for my esbat and I have only found invocations and it's all confusing me.:bug:. I was wondering if anyone here knew of a website that might have envocations, for beginners preferably. Also, I have just been looking for a simple esbat ritual to use/adapt and havn't had much luck. If you know of any websites that would be useful, I would be very grateful.

[CalliopeHellice]

Invocation is calling a deity INTO yourself--basically, Drawing Down the Moon is an Invocation.

Evocation is calling a deity into Circle. Saying:

"Artemis, Goddess of the Moon
Goddess of the Hunt,
Keeper of virginity, of the forest and the night
I call upon thee
And request thy presence in this Circle
On this Esbat night.
Welcome, and Blessed Be!"

Is an Evocation.


Some links:

Invocation/Evocation
http://www.darksites.com/souls/pagan/abiegnus/invevo.htm
Hecate's Cauldron Invocation-Evocation
http://www.hecatescauldron.org/Invocation-Evocation.htm
Invocation and Evocation (Book of Shadows)
http://www.liber-umbra.com/i/invocation.htm
Good Invoking/Evoking Article for Beginners
http://www.sacredrealmofwitches.com/beginners/invoking_and_evoking.html


Hope that helps!

[TYRRHENUS]

Please don't invoke. I went mad doing it. I thought I was so experienced, I had over a decade of high magic practise, I invoked, and 10 years later, I'm just now getting my sanity and spirit back. Don't think the Gods can't be angered. If you violate them by using an invocation for the wrong purpose, you will go mad. Some say it shouldn't be done at all. I should have listened.

[Toad]

Please don't invoke. I went mad doing it. I thought I was so experienced, I had over a decade of high magic practise, I invoked, and 10 years later, I'm just now getting my sanity and spirit back. Don't think the Gods can't be angered. If you violate them by using an invocation for the wrong purpose, you will go mad. Some say it shouldn't be done at all. I should have listened.


Tyrrhenus -

Having done successful invocations and still maintaining my sanity (OK OK...how about not getting any nuttiuer :D)...I am very confused about your post here.

While I can see how invocation used inappropriately could be detremental...I fail to see an argument that it should not be done at all. In fact this is the first time I have ever heard it stated.

Admittingly this comes from a new practitioner of high magic. I will readily admit that I dont have years of practice under my belt...on the other hand I do consider myself quite well read on the subject.

[mol]

Please don't invoke. I went mad doing it. I thought I was so experienced, I had over a decade of high magic practise, I invoked, and 10 years later, I'm just now getting my sanity and spirit back. Don't think the Gods can't be angered. If you violate them by using an invocation for the wrong purpose, you will go mad. Some say it shouldn't be done at all. I should have listened.
As someone with years of experience in ceremonial magic I am a bit confused myself.

For starters, an invocation is an invitation which can be disregarded. The only time an angel, demon, god, whatever will grace your presence through invocation is when they want to do so. We are dealing with invitations here coupled with praise...not commands.

I have the feeling that if you were going mad then you were most likely performing your operations wrong.

[mol]

I think a lot of people have the idea of invocation and evocation confused.

To invoke is to ask.
To evoke is to command.

Invocation is to ask for some kind of assitance while evocation is to command and for the lack of a better term...enslave to perform some action or whatever.

A lot of this confusion seems to come from pop culture throwing around these terms witout thinking about the actual definition.

As a guideline, I would say that a normal person working a Craft type of magic would only use the invocation processes as the magic tends to form from the practitioner rather than any outside entities.

Just some thoughts for you to mull over.

[Armitage]

I think a lot of people have the idea of invocation and evocation confused.
To invoke is to ask.
To evoke is to command

I thought evocation was having the Deity/whatnot manifest outside of yourself, while invocation was pulling it into yourself so you embody that spirit/deity for a bit. Neither really implying force and commanding, or lack thereof.
Not to argue Ye Site God... :eyebro:

[Rain Gnosis]

mol is arguing from a ceremonial context, which, while not incorrect per se is a totally different view then a Wiccan context.

In Wicca the Divine is immanent - invoking is done to recognize at our core we are all part of the Divine, and to focus on bring that Divine in and forward. In Wicca we do not "command" deities, demons, or angels. When we invoke the Gods we don't "hope they'll come", we know they have, we know they are already within us and we're focusing on them. We are ourselves Divine - why would we command part of ourselves? Or Nature? We also recognize the Divine as being a higher power - therefore we wouldn't command it.

This has nothing to do with "pop culture" or "being confused" but differing views and methods.

[Rain Gnosis]

Incidentally, I was just reading an interesting discussion on invocation and the self last night from a Jungian and Wiccan perspective in Viviane Crowley's book Wicca. It was first published in '89 but is one of the best 101 books I've read.

[mol]

I have not read anywhere in this thread where Wicca has been mentioned besides your post, Rain. Also, while the concepts might vary I dont see how the definition of a word can change because it is used by a different group of folks.

Hmm. Well, maybe I do see how it can be different depending on who is using it. But, good grief...how confusing!

[mol]

I thought evocation was having the Deity/whatnot manifest outside of yourself, while invocation was pulling it into yourself so you embody that spirit/deity for a bit. Neither really implying force and commanding, or lack thereof.
Not to argue Ye Site God... :eyebro:
Don't be afraid to argue a point if you think Im wrong. My skin is pretty thick.

[Rain Gnosis]

I have not read anywhere in this thread where Wicca has been mentioned besides your post, Rain.

The person's asking about an esbat and mentions the sacred circle. I didn't suppose they were talking about ceremonial magic then, though I could certainly be wrong :)

Also, while the concepts might vary I dont see how the definition of a word can change because it is used by a different group of folks.

The application changes. Look at the term God - if I say it in a ceremonialist context you'll have a very different idea of the God I talk about in a Wiccan context (ie. Herne, Pan, Cernunnos, the horned god, the oak king or holly king, etc.), and that is entirely different from how we'd use the word God in a Christian church. If I mention a circle to a non-Pagan they'll assume I mean a shape, if I mention circle to a Wiccan they'll probably assume I mean a sacred construct to work magic within.

[mol]

The person's asking about an esbat and mentions the sacred circle. I didn't suppose they were talking about ceremonial magic then, though I could certainly be wrong :)

Hmm. When I hear someone mention a Sabbat or Esbat I dont automatically assume that person is Wiccan. I usually assume that person is associated with Witchcraft in some way, but not Wicca necessarily. But, it sounds like we are arguing semantics now anyway. :p

The application changes.

Ok. I will give you that one. :)

[Toad]

Look at the term God - if I say it in a ceremonialist context you'll have a very different idea of the God I talk about in a Wiccan context (ie. Herne, Pan, Cernunnos, the horned god, the oak king or holly king, etc.), and that is entirely different from how we'd use the word God in a Christian church.


Rain I am a little confused by this. Just to verify...are you stating that the word God has different meanings based on the religion? Just trying to make sure I read that correctly...

[Rain Gnosis]

Rain I am a little confused by this. Just to verify...are you stating that the word God has different meanings based on the religion? Just trying to make sure I read that correctly...

No, I'm saying God is a different being based on religion. The word will be used differently.

An atheist may see God as a make-believe fantasy. A Satanist might see God as himself. A Wiccan might see God as part of the God and Goddess and a manifestation of transcendent Divine. A Christian has yet another God. A Kemetic will see God and think Asar, Heru, etc. A Hellenic might think of Zeus. If I use the term God different people are going to have different interpretations. It's a matter of application and context.

I totally forgot how we got on this subject anyway :lol:

[Toad]

I totally forgot how we got on this subject anyway :lol:


So Rain...I posted then read it again...slapped myself in the head for being a dolt and not reading your post thoroughly...then i deleted my question.

You are just too darn fast! :D

[mol]

LMAO! I can undelete it if you want, Toad. :)

[Toad]

LMAO! I can undelete it if you want, Toad. :)


I'm not worried...whatever makes more sense *shrug* :D

[mol]

I'm not worried...whatever makes more sense *shrug* :D
Just for clarity I undeleted it. :)

[Toad]

Just for clarity I undeleted it. :)
:yourock: