some parents need to be slapped pt2

[Elaine]

I don't have kids so if I'm wrong here (which I don't think I am) but if I am someone please tell me...

We were at a bbq at a friends house yesterday...some friends of theirs came over ...a couple with 3 kids (the wife is having an affair with our friend...but that's a whole other story in itself!!) I left and my husband was telling me this morning that after I left the kids were wanting to go in the pool....well they didn't bring bathing suits or a change of clothes (the parents have been ther before and knew full well that there was a pool) ...(btw these kids are 8-girl, 7 boy, 2-boy)so, the parents say, yeah you can go in the pool, but you have to go in naked!! keep in mind our friend, who's house we were over is a 40 yr old male, my husband was there, this girl we work with and another guy we work with....don't you think that those kids are a little too old to be running around naked??? I was apauled (sp?) by hearing this!! especially with the 8 year old girl!!! I worry about her future!!! the thing is, the kids were comfortable with this!!! they just whipped their clothes off and started running around...jumping in the pool, laying on the rafts and stuff, getting in and out....imo, this SHOULD NOT be!!!!

[BlackDragon]

Yeah, that's wrong. The biggest thing I see wrong here, is that they've been before, and the kids didn't have suits. The parents should really have anticipated the kids wanting to go swimming.

I guess the kids are too young, to really think about stuff like that. They shouldn't have to worry about anything like that till they are atleast 13...

[Revelation]

What's wrong with being nude, again?

I think its more of a poor reflection on our mentality as a culture that we view nudity in such a poor light. Nudity is completely natural. So the kids were running around naked. So what?

It is, in my opinion, ridiculous that Americans are so afraid of nudity. IS it because we, wrongly, link nudity with sex? Should we teach our children to be ashamed of their bodies? Should children learn that nudity must necessarily be equal to sex?

I ask you again, *why* is it horrible that children were running around in the skin God gave them?

[Greenthumb]

In the security of their own home I would agree on the nudity thing. But to simply let the children strip down-at least the 2 oldest- without even asking the owners if it was o.k. first, seems a bit bold.
And, like it or not, in this country you have to be VERY careful about how things look when it comes to children and inappropriate adult behavior. I know that if it were my pool, I definately would not allow any naked swimmers over the age of 3 unless I felt absolutely secure with their parents, and anybody else around to see.
There's nothing wrong with being naked. I like to be naked. There's also nothing wrong with some lessons in modesty. This probably would have been a good time to exercise those modesty muscles.

peace
greenthumb

[Revelation]

In the security of their own home I would agree on the nudity thing. But to simply let the children strip down-at least the 2 oldest- without even asking the owners if it was o.k. first, seems a bit bold.


That, however, does not appear to be the issue in Elaine's post. She asked "dont you think those kids are too old to be running around naked?"

I think at the age we are talking about and in the circumstances we are talking about, modesty might far too easily be aligned with shame.

Also, why is it disrespectful to be naked? I'm sorry, you compeltely lost me on that point.

I think its fabulous that the kids were secure enough in their bodies to run around naked. I wish more adults had the same positive sense of self.

[Greenthumb]

I think it was disrespectful on the parents part for assuming that the owners wouldn't mind if children were naked in their pool. Obviously, it was indeed a problem.
It had not occurred to me that modesty should imply shame. I also think it was nice that the children felt comfortable enough about their little bods to have a good time. On the other hand, there is the issue of being appropriate, and in this case the owner was not comfortable.

greenthumb

[rantnraven]

Here's my thought on this issue.

The fact of the matter is that some people were offended by this so, I agree with Green on the respect aspect. Granted, nudity is nothing to me - and I have had my share of sky clad rituals. However, whether it should or shouldn't be Okay is a mut point. Some ARE offended by it and THAT should be respected.

On the other hand, nudity is appearently not a problem with the parents of the children and, let's face it, children generally have no quams about it untill puberty is reached.

The parents should have been more repectfull to the other patrons of the party (period). Would it be right if I showed up to someones house, stripped and jumped into their pool without asking if that would be okay with them?

NO! Final Answer!

RnR

[Revelation]

I think we read the original post differently. I didn't see where Elain mentions how the pool owners felt at all. :confused: I only see that Elaine (who wasn't even present) thinks that children should have been clad, rather than nude. Clarification might help. (Though I don't think it would change the initial point, which is that there isn't anything inherently wrong with naked 8 year olds going for a swim)

[Greenthumb]

heh heh, after re-reading the initial post, I agree that I DID NOT READ IT CORRECTLY!!!!
I thought it was her house & pool-she just wasn't there... Oh,
well that makes a bit of a difference doesn't it. Well, if it's not your house, it really isn't your problem. If you don't like it, I suppose you can leave.

Terribly sorry chaps
greenthumb

[Elaine]

wow....I didn't expect all this when I posted this:D

to clarify my point on this I do NOT have a problem with nakedness....My focus was mainly on the 8 yr old girl....I think that she is at the age where she should be tought that in certain situations modesty is appropriate!...not being embarrassed of herself, just respectful of herself and the others around her!! I just believe that there is a time and a place for everything! I am fearful that she will become TOO comfortable being naked in front of perfect strangers and take herself down the wrong path in life.... I do not know what the owner of the pool thought of this, but I do know that others at this party were uncomfortable with it!!

posted by Revelation
-IS it because we, wrongly, link nudity with sex? -

I agree to a point...nudity does not always mean sex, but at the same time...the people at this place were pretty much strangers to her...if she is taught that it is ok to be naked around perfect strangers she will carry this into her teenage years and let's keep in mind there are things like rape and date rape to worry about here....I just think that the earlier you start to teach certain things to kids, the better off they will be....

[Lilu]

I have to agree with Revelation, if it's not your pool, it's not your problem, you don't like it, you leave. I personally feel that they should have checked with the owner of the pool first, but the owner also has the right to complain, and if they don't then it's their problem (or not, as the case may be).

Elaine, I'm curious why you are so worried about the girl and not the boy? Why do you think the girl should be showing some modesty, but the boys shoudn't be? The older boy is only one year younger than the girl after all.

Just curious! Is there a reason a girl should be more modest than a boy? ;)

BB
Lilu

[Kaylara]

Ok... Here I go... I like being naked... I love running around with no clothing on, and it really doesn't matter to me if there are others around or not. With that being said, I think that it's really up to the owner of the pool and the parents... If the owner of the pool didn't want those kids in his pool naked, then he should have said something, and the parents shouldn't have just assumed that something like that would be ok...

As for being naked equaling this girl getting raped when she is older, I can tell you from experience... It doesn't matter whether you are comfortable with yourself and being naked or not...
If someone is going to rape you, (or try to) no amount of being comfortable with yourself is going to make a difference.

It took me a long time to be able to be comfortable with myself again, and think that I might even be *sexy*... I don't assume that by me looking good that I am inviting rapists... Women should not be ashamed of themselves (nor should men). If I dress provocatively, does that mean that I deserve it if I get raped? (And men can get raped too... Someone very close to me lost his virginity that way.)

Rather than creating shame in our young people, we should try to teach them how to have a healthy outlook on sex, nudity, etc. instead of teaching them that sex is evil, nudity is evil, etc.

Sorry for the long rant... But this is something that I feel very strongly about...

Nudity does not equal sex, does not equal rape, does not equal the girls life being ruined...

Just my thoughts,

Kaylara

[Yvonne Belisle]

I think we may be over looking the fact that Elaine is concerned for the long term safty of the children. I find that something to be admired. We live in a society where it is a cultural taboo to be naked. Each of us is going to see that taboo in one way or another. With the number of sick people out there the question comes to my mind of How well did the parents know these people? For all anyone knows there could have been a sick individual there that went home fantasizing about one of these children. I am not saying that the parents or Elaine are wrong. I would let my children skinny dip infront of friends and people I know and trust. I don't know how well those parents knew the other people and at those ages the kids trust their parents to keep them safe. When you are older and you make the decision to strip wherever you may be I assume you are old enough to understand that there can be danger involved and to have assesed your situation and decided that you were safe. At 8, 7, 2 they don't have the knowledge needed to make that decision.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I totally agree Yvonne. I couldn't have put it so well.

[Revelation]

For all anyone knows there could have been a sick individual there that went home fantasizing about one of these children.

Right. Just like, as far as anyone knows there could have been a sick weirdo there who has a foot fetish, who got his rocks off loooking at the children's feet.

So what? We cannot control other people's thoughts. There is little reason to stifle one's behavior, simultaneously imposing ideas that may be harmful to the children in the long run, simply to try to curb the possibility of someone else's sexual thoughts, *especially* when sexual fetishes run the gamut, and could be triggered by any number of things.

This sounds to me more like over protective naivete than anything else.

[Elaine]

my point was that no one really knew these people all that well...the mother is friends of the host of the party, but have not even known each other a year....and the kids are never really with him...they've only been there just a few times...the rest of the people there were perfect strangers to the couple and these kids!! If you are an adult and wish to be naked...that's just fine with me...but I think that teaching kids the time and place for something like this is important! and with this I will leave it at that! It's fine if you disagree with me, after all, I did say at the beginning of my post to correct me if I'm wrong!! I really don't know what else I can say to explain myself!! All I know is when I used to babysit my neighbor, by the time he was 3 and potty trained and I didn't need to change his diaper anymore he would not let me see him naked....and he and the mother new me very well...(the mother used to babysit ME!!!) we trusted them and they trusted us, but I think there's just a point with kids that you teach them to be modest, not ashamed, and when they grow up, they can make their own decisions when the time comes!!

[Mariposa De La Luna]

Originally posted by Revelation


Right. Just like, as far as anyone knows there could have been a sick weirdo there who has a foot fetish, who got his rocks off loooking at the children's feet.

So what? We cannot control other people's thoughts. There is little reason to stifle one's behavior, simultaneously imposing ideas that may be harmful to the children in the long run, simply to try to curb the possibility of someone else's sexual thoughts, *especially* when sexual fetishes run the gamut, and could be triggered by any number of things.

This sounds to me more like over protective naivete than anything else.

Hypothetical situation:
What if this was your kid naked around strangers, because you let them, and one of the strangers took a liking to your child. This stranger found out where your kid went to school and started talking to your child, without your knowledge, in order to have sexual contact with them. Or this person said how they would like to get to know you better and become friends because you have things in common. You start trusting this person to the point you let them babysit all the while they were playing you to get to your child/ren. it happens all the time.

One of the scariest things that ever happened to us was finding out one of my husband's friends was a child molester. He had gone to tech school with my husband for 2+ years and he would go over to his house with our daughter when I was working. He was living with this nice lady that had 3 kids. We, and another friend of thiers who went to tech school with them, all moved and they worked at the same company. He had heard someone got arrested at work for molesting children then found out it was him! We had no clue! This man offered to babysit for our daughter and given maybe another year we might have let them. It turned out he had been molesting the lady's 2 daughters, I don't know about the younger son they were not his, for at least 3 years that I know of. I know before they moved she had been working nights and he stayed home with the kids. He got found out because he molested a nieghbor's child. He had been arrested before in NY for molesting his own daughter. He told us he was arrested for a barroom brawl. He kept telling the lady he would marry her but kept putting it off because he knew he would be found and would probably be in violation of parole for being around children. That was just disgusting.

I thank the Goddess it was not my daughter.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Any parent who knowingly puts their child in a dangerous situation should be held accountable when the child is harmed. At the age of 8 I had already been molested for 2 years and I was still nieve. I didn't tell my parents and I would have thought nothing of trusting someone I met while with my parents. Children as young as 1 month of age have been molested. I find it increadably irresponsible of those parents and I stand behind Elaine in her instinct to protect children from potential harm. No we can not protect them from everything but that doesn't mean that we should encourage endangering behavior. Had it been a group of friends I would see no harm in it. I do however dislike the fact that this was a pack of strangers. As SAHM pointed out even friends can be a danger but at least the odds are a little better.

[Elaine]

I am truely sorry that this discussion has come to bringing up hurtful memories to prove a point! That was not my intent of starting this thread!!! I do, however, appreciate the people that understand where I'm coming from and are behind me in this....SAHM & Yvonne, you are understanding me completely!! That was exactly my point!!! I have a long history of child care (I used to babysit ALL the time and I've worked at 2 different day care centers) my first concern with ALL children, is their safety!! They are our future, (hey what can I say, the song is right:D) and while they need to experience life, they need to have someone look after them and look out for them until they are old enough to take care of themselves...that's what a parents job is supposed to be!! Again, I am sorry that this thread has gone where it has, but I thank you both for sharing your stories!!

When I was a bit younger, my dad became good friends with a co-worker...he was married with a kid on the way, and they seemed very happy...he was a very nice guy and treated my sister and I very well....Their child was born and the wife went back to work, leaving the baby at home with my dad's friend....this was not happening for too long, when we recieved a call one day from his wife looking for my dad.....in tears, very hysterical...asking for his help because she came home and found handprints on this infant that was only about 3 months old!! Yes, this is different than what we're talking about, but my point of this is that you can never be sure about people and what they're like behind closed doors!! It's sad that this is the way it is, but it IS reality!!! and just because you or I have no problem with nudity, some other people do, and some people, as SAHM said, prey on kids...it's sad, but it is a fact and I don't think that that is something that should be overlooked!! Elaine

[Revelation]

I think you're kind of missing the point.

The point isn't that people don't prey on children. the point is that *anything* can cause sexually disturbing thoughts for people who are going to be prone to sexual perversion, and seeing children naked isn't going to be the only thing that sparks such interest. Like I said before, it could be feet, it could be the cute strawberry swimsuit that 8 year old could have ben wearing were she not running around stark naked. The point is, nudity in and of itself isn't harmful, and letting kids be nude isn't bad parenting, and that if people are going to prey on kids they're going to prey on kids--and no amount of clothing is going to prevent that.

And I'm very sorry Yvonne, but letting a child be naked in a pool is NOT tantamount to putting children in a dangerous situation. You know what puts children in a dangerous situation? Having them.

Yes, molestation happens. Yes, terrible things happen to people, and yes, parents should most certainly be responsible for the happiness and general welfare of their children. But I take extreme offense at the idea that a parent is "irresponsible" for allowing an 8 year old to engage in the freedom of nudity.

There *are* predators out there. For certain. However, this incident wouldn't cause a predator to think about prey anymore than were the children wearing swim clothing (I mean, come on, swimsuits don't exactly cover much). I feel for those of you who have been victimes of sexual abuse, but I concur with Kaylara's earlier post--clothing or lack thereof isn't going to save one from sexual attack or abuse.

[Tanna]

Originally posted by Revelation
I think you're kind of missing the point.

The point isn't that people don't prey on children. the point is that *anything* can cause sexually disturbing thoughts

true. this includes nakedness. like it or not, in this society it does increase thoughts along those lines for a great deal of the population.

for people who are going to be prone to sexual perversion, and seeing children naked isn't going to be the only thing that sparks such interest. Like I said before, it could be feet, it could be the cute strawberry swimsuit that 8 year old could have ben wearing were she not running around stark naked. The point is, nudity in and of itself isn't harmful, and letting kids be nude isn't necessarily bad parenting, and that if people are going to prey on kids they're going to prey on kids--and no amount of clothing is going to prevent that.[/color]

we seem to pretty much agree on that, (nakedness is fine, clothes won't save you from determined sickos,) but here are some things to ask yourself/someone who knows:
--just how many people were there at this party?
--how many other kids were there, and were they swimming, too?
examine assumptions.

And I'm very sorry Yvonne, but letting a child be naked in a pool is NOT tantamount to putting children in a dangerous situation.

she knows/said that. the strangers were her hang-up.

You know what puts children in a dangerous situation? Having them.

*fume*

Yes, molestation happens. Yes, terrible things happen to people, and yes, parents should most certainly be responsible for the happiness and general welfare of their children. But I take extreme offense at the idea that a parent is "irresponsible" for allowing an 8 year old to engage in the freedom of nudity.

again, in the company of many strangers...

There *are* predators out there. For certain. However, this incident wouldn't cause a predator to think about prey anymore than were the children wearing swim clothing (I mean, come on, swimsuits don't exactly cover much). I feel for those of you who have been victimes of sexual abuse, but I concur with Kaylara's earlier post--clothing or lack thereof isn't going to save one from sexual attack or abuse.

you said "anything" can cause these thoughts, but now you presume to know the difference in the degree to which a particular individual would be affected by the presence or lack of a miniscule scrap of clothing. said scrap's mere existence gives both the illusion of clothing and the illusion of nudity. it's psychological effect upon a person differs, but in this culture it is mostly counted as sufficient barrier, even subconsciously.




sorry for the yapping, and any harshness sent/perceived. rubbed wrong and sparked. tried to tone it down.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

This is not about if nudity is bad but about permitting your child to do it around strangers. IMHO they are not showing the children how to be safe and to safely choose when they can be nude. As for "no amount of clothing is going to stop what predators feel" I'm with Tanna and these parents showed these people how easy it is to get thier kids clothes off. If there were 2 different families and one set of kids had swimsuits and one went in naked and there is a predator among the strangers, who do you think they are more likely to target? The clothed family or the one who is lax enough to let thier the kids go nude around strangers. I know if it were my kids and they were comfortable being nude I would tell them it was not the appropriate place for it. If it was an appropriate place and everyone was nude I'd still keep a close eye on them and escort them to the bathroom. Predators can see when children are not easily accessable and know to move on. They rarely pick a child at random but watch them for awhile to see when is the best time to attack. I don't plan on my kids being victims and will do everything in my power to prevent it.

A few years ago this guy was telling me about this girl who was the "pity me" type and I guess she wanted him to like her and was telling him how she was abused as a child. His response "Get over it, everyone I know has been abused. Its nothing new." I relized it was very true. I want my kids to be the few that can say they didn't have such bad experiences like that, just that they had strict parents. I don't intend on being this way when they are16 IF they have demonstrated responsability. If the children mentioned were all in thier teens I don't know if I would have a problem with it. It is beyond my experience.

[Kaylara]

SAHM, you are talking about a specific kind of predator... Not all predators watch their victims first... There are those who will just grab your kid and run the second you turn your head, clothing or no clothing...

Quick fact for everyone... Most children who are abused, are abused (either sexually or otherwise) by someone in their immediate family...

Now that I have said that... Predators come in all shapes, colors, religions, and attitudes... *ANYONE* you know could be a predator... Does that mean that we hide under the bed until we all die? (Tempting at times... but No.) Be vigilant, talk to your kids, etc... these things will help keep your kids safe...

I agree that kids should have modesty, but I do not agree with the reasoning you have behind it... Nothing will prevent a determined predator from hurting your kid, short of locking your kids up or shooting everyone you see for fear of them being a predator... It's just clothing, (which as Revelation said may even elevate the arousal) and can easily be ripped off...

I am not saying that you are less of a parent if you let your kid run naked or not... Who am I to judge, unless you are abusing them or neglecting them? What I am trying to say is that clothing is not a automatic deterent for predators, and can be easily removed. It will not stop a determined predator...

Just my two cents...

Kaylara

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I see yoour point Kaylara and it is a valid one. Education is the greatest thing you can give your children. Being open and honest and speaking of such things is the best way to arm your children.

[Elaine]

to expand on SAHM's point a bit...

I agree that some preditors will just take what they want, without watching first...but if they were to see one kid with a nice bathing suit and one without, who do you think that preditor would choose first!! Even if they don't examine the situation for a long time before hand, they will look for, and go for, the easiest target!! If a preditor sees a woman walking around who is very confident and carry's herself very well, and a woman with less confidence who seems nervous of her surroundings...who will they go for first!! I think the answer is obvious....No, you can not hide under your bed to protect yourself from the bad things in the world...things happen, regardless sometimes....but I am a firm believer that there are certain things you can do to make yourself less of a target! doing the things you CAN do to protect yourself so that if a preditor has the choice between you and someone else, they will not pick you!! If everyone at this party were friends and knew each other, hearing about this would NOT have bothered me....knowing that these people did not know anyone there was the thing that bothered me!! I mean, everyone had to introduce themselves to these people as they walked in the door!! I look at it as putting your kids out on a platter and saying "here you go, take my kids if you want them" just mho of course!!

[Tanna]

many, (hey, me, too,) seem to be getting stuck in a single type of predatory mind-set. it depends on what particular sick twist is given to the mind which what they will be the more likely to go after. sometimes it is a physical characteristic, (a distinct article or style of clothing, a body-type, a coloration,) and sometimes it is something else. certainly some may go after the easier target made by the meek, the timid, the frightened, wounded ones, but there are those who favor the proud and strong for their spirit. sure some are probably more statistically common than others, but there exists a taste for every kind.

[Evangie]

I have two kids of my own, both boys. I find what these parents did was very very RUDE! Yes, it would be nice to live in a society that is fine with the body in its natural state... however we do not. Those people were obviously aware that there would be swimming. They should have had the common sense to prepare for it. The added fact that there were no questions asked of the hosts, points to the fact that these persons were not raised with manners themselves, so they were not passing them on to their children. Personally, if I had the gall to contemplate these same actions... my respect for my friends would have over ridden any thought of completing them.