Can you believe this crap?!?!

[Semele]

Got this from our friend at E-witch. What do you all make of it? Any suggestions?

Dear Brenda Tate,
EVERYONE PLEASE READ & SPREAD THE WORD!!!!

Apparently, E-Witch has become a victim of discrimination. As you all know, we recently switched software -- the package we purchased was for the software itself & also a year's pre-paid hosting on the company's servers, who are specially set up just for auctions - that's all they do - they do not do "regular" site hosting.

While discussing the software w/ them initially, I *deliberately* made a point of telling them in detail, just what E-Witch was -- that it was a pagan auction, an auction geared strictly for pagans & witches. I outright asked the guy, if he, or his company had any problems with that -- that I just wanted to be upfront about it, that I understood that some people are uncomfortable w/ pagans, and if that was the case with them, I would understand. He assured me repeatedly, that there was NO problem.

So, there we went. Today, we got a phone call from the company, informing us that due to the "controversial nature" of E-Witch, they could not host the site after all! They are not willing to refund the years' hosting that was pre-paid - they say they have to apply that to the balance that we still owe them on the software. (We borrowed money & paid several thousand dollars upfront, and had a payment plan to pay off the remainder of the balance over time)

The software works under Cold Fusion server, which is not available just anywhere... so our choices on just going elsewhere are quite limited. They have our money, won't refund it, and say they cannot host the site!

First, any & all positive energy would be greatly appreciated. I am furious, scared ***less, and just don't really know which way to turn. We are contacting a pagan-friendly attorney in the morning, to find out what, if any, options we have -- at the very least, just getting our money back, so that we can do something else.

If anyone needs to reach me, you probably ought to write to my dtrh address, as I cannot guarantee for how long they will keep my email working. You can definately reach me at either
ravyn@dtrh.com
nickie@dtrh.com

I don't know how much time they're going to give us. They might let it go until we find another Cold Fusion server or they might pull the plug in the morning - they would not give us any clear answer on that - at one point, the guy said that they "would make the transition as easy as possible" and knew of other Cold Fusion hosts that they could seamlessly transfer the site to. But they have lied about so many other things - I cannot believe them on that. Until/unless they actually shut the site down, e-witch will keep running - we're trying to figure out what to do, but we're both so upset & distraught right now tonight that we can't hardly think straight. Maybe in the morning, I'll have a clearer head & be able to figure something out....

I cannot believe this has happened - especially so soon after we just "got back on our feet".

Thanks for reading this lengthy message - please spread the word around if you would. And please send us some healing/peace right now, we're both about to come unglued here.

Thanks!!!

Ravyn

[loopy]

I can't believe that. Oh, yeah, all that "controversial matter" on E-witch. As opposed to the friendly-for-all, squeaky-clean Ebay and the like, which makes its living off of happy rubber duckies, pressed flowers, and faked nudes of 16-year-old celebrities.

This is completely stupid and petty. I can't even find words to express how mad I am.

My energy goes out to those lovely webmasters of the site. I've yet to purchase anything through them, but I've browsed quite a few times. Hopefully everything will work out in the end.

[Lilu]

That's unreal!!!

I would think that they'll be able to have some sort of legal recourse. There has to be a contract of some sort, and even if they can cancel the account, they should be given the option of returning the software and getting their money back.

I hope everything works out!
Lilu

[Lilu]

LOL go loopy!

What cracks me up is that I've done a bit of shopping at both eBay and e-witch. And I've YET to find anything that isn't legal on e-witch. At least people aren't going around selling burned CDs of software and games!!!

I had a situation where I was looking for a particular computer game for my husband at eBay, and came across someone who was blatantly selling pirated software. He even said it RIGHT THERE on the site! I reported him to eBay management. And all they did was make him remove the stuff. Like it wasn't going up again in a month when the attention died down!!! I expected them to at least ban the guy from selling stuff. Unreal!!!

Like my husband says "eBay, a place where legality is a state of mind".

It would be a waste to see e-witch disappear.

Later!
Lilu

[Semele]

I haven't heard back from her yet but I am sure the lawyer is helping. This is unreal. Software leasing or purchase should not be biased. Maybe Mol can write her some software ...ya know in his spare time!!!

[Dria El]

Seeing as this is a business, my first question is... What does their contract say? Well, it sucks, that's for sure. But I'm sure they've got some kind of recourse. It IS a business, not a personal site. I'm sure the lawyer will be able to help. Also, have they thought about contacting W.A.R.D.? They might be able to help them too. Here's the addie. http://www.ward-hq.org/ I hope it helps.

[MystyPines]

This is absurd! Although I am not an attorney (just a paralegal), it is clearly a breach of contract issue and E-Witch should have no problem getting their money back and maybe more. I wish there is some way I can assist, but the law firm I have been with for 15 years does not know I am Pagan. Hmmm. I am a big fan of E-Witch and have been a regular customer for over 1 year. I wish there was something I could do. Do we know what state (jurisdiction) E-Witch would file a complaint? Just curious.

[Dria El]

I sent it to everyone I thought might be able to help. Also, have they (or anyone) sent a copy of this to Witchvox? They're pretty good about getting the word out.

[Lady Tana]

I cant even think of what to say... discrimination is a horrible thing and should be abolished :uzi: (i wish i wish). :G
I am sending all sorts of good energies their way... Keep us informed Semele

[Dria El]

Ok, I found some more.

WICCAN EDUCATION AND ANTI-DEFAMATION GROUPS (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr2.htm)

Much Blessings...

[Semele]

Thank you Dria El for your help. I have forwarded the thread to Rayvn. Hopefully she can use some of this!!

[Dria El]

You're VERY welcome! If there's anything else I can do, let me know.

[eaglewolf]

This is a bit rediculous...

I sent an email to Fritz of the Witches' Voice at his work place, though I am sure he has heard already. As suggested, they are very good at finding help with this type of situation, hopefully I will hear back from him today.

~ew

[Semele]

Thank you all for your concern. I knew you guys would be willing to help in any way possible. E-witch is a great place and I hate to see this happening to them!

Will keep you posted as I hear more!

[MystyPines]

I sent an email to Phyllis Curott, a New York City attorney and also a Wiccan and author of Book of Shadows. I was unable to locate her through the Martindale Hubbell Law Directory but did find her website and sent her an email attaching a copy of the above post. Hope it helps.

:bad:

[MystyPines]

I came across the following 2 organizations that can possibly help with this situation and have sent additional emails to them regarding the E-Witch situation:

Religious Liberties Lawyers Network (RLLN)
Phyllis Curott, Esq. aradia@mindspring.com
P.O. Box 311, Prince Street Station, New York, N.Y. 10012

A national organization of Wiccan, neo-Pagan and civil liberties attorneys, paralegals and law students, providing legal counseling and representation in cases of religious discrimination. RLLN also provides a highly visible media profile to rebut negative stereotypes and respond to instances of religious bias and discrimination, evaluates and responds to proposed and existing legislation in the area of religious liberties, and establishes relationships with advocates of religious liberties from other faith traditions, providing them with support through amicus curiae briefs, advice, expert witnesses, etc.

Witches’ Anti-Discrimination League (WADL)
P.O. Box 821, Connerville, IN 47331 WADL @webworks2000.net

WADL provides educational services to any Person, Group or Entity who desire information about Alternative Earth Based Religions and support to those who have been subjected to Religious Discrimination. WADL assisted the ACLU in defeating the anti-Witch policy in Lincoln Park High School. Crystal Seifferly is chairperson of Young WADL.

[eaglewolf]

The more I look at this situation, the more I feel we don't know the "whole story."

But, no need to give up the helpful thoughts...

;)

~ew

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by Lady Tana
I am sending all sorts of good energies their way...


are u sure thats good energy u want to send. call me crazy but i dont think they diserve it

[Semele]

Greetings,

June 19th 2001 11pm -- Whew, what a day! My most heartfelt thanks to ALL the hundreds of you who wrote to me expressing your concern, support, kindness, hugs, love, outrage, suggestions, and feelings about the recent events here!! For tonight at least, please accept this 'generic' thank-you to all of you at once - I will try to reply to you personally as quickly as I can.

Also - please note - from now on, I will only email those who have indicated that they wanted to be on E-Witch's 'mailing list' by checking the box on your registration form. Those who did not opt to be on the list, please forgive me for these intrusions - this is the last message you will get (mass-mail directly from me) unless you *choose* to get these messages. I will use the mailing list only when there is something new or important going on. (you can change your mailing-list settings at any time by going to the Change Info area in MyE-Witch)

Because the situation is still somewhat up-in-the-air at the moment & some issues have not been totally settled, I must refrain from going into details about the situation at this time. But please know - your concern, energy, and caring made a BIG difference! E-Witch WILL be OK - and I will let you know more just as soon as I can. In the meantime, just keep using the auction as usual - things might slow down a little bit but we ARE running & will continue to do so... your continued prayers & thoughts are appreciated greatly!

Also - please note!! Fritz Jung & Wren Walker of the Witch's Voice (www.witchvox.com) *are* aware of this situation & I have been in contact with both of them. **Thank you** for passing my notice along to them, they have both been wonderful!!! So, please don't send them any further copies of my notice - they have received dozens of copies already - thank you & hugs to all of you who took the time to let them know!!!

Last night, I sat here in tears - anger, frustration, fear, uncertainty.... Tonight once again, I've got tears in my eyes, but they are happy tears, knowing that SO many of you care, and have taken the time to let me know that you care -- it is truly overwhelming.

Thank you, all of you! Those of you whom I know & those of you whom I've never had contact with previously - you are all the most amazing bunch of people & I am so very very blessed to have crossed paths with you, whether for the first time now, or whether you're an 'old frield'.

Brightest blessings to all of you!!!!!!!!

Hugs & love,
Ravyn

[eaglewolf]

Well... good news: They found a server for their site within a few hours, one in their home town, should they go with it.

Bad news: As quoted in an email to me from Fritz "Discrimination? YES... Illegal? NO"

Luckily they were able to find a solution to the problem, but businesses reserve the right to do business with whom they choose.

Good luck to all in this matter!

~ew

[SeekerSandy]

Glad to hear the good news, EW. But I think Fritz may be a bit off: there may be no case for religious discrimination under any federal law (but any lawyer can make a case out of anything), but there is ample recourse under tort law. It was mentioned before that there may be grounds for breach of contract. I concur. If a contract was agreed upon and then cancelled by one party without reasonable cause, all funds must be refunded other than actual expenses. If those expense include any labor performed on an operation which is subsequently cancelled, the offending party generally has to eat them.
I for one am sick and tired of Wiccans and other pagans being mistaken for roll-over-and-play-dead pacifists. When one of us gets screwed, we should use every legal means available to fight back, that includes hurting them in the pocketbook with sanctions.
Those of us who are Americans have rights that many died to protect. Use them!
Right Rick and Gunner?

[eaglewolf]

Well... I don't have all of the facts, but from what I understand, there may have been a contract breach by E-witch... this is where the opinion of legallity had come from.

Dunno, I am just riding along with the rest of you.

The rights you so pationately speak of apply to everyone, including the companies we would fry. I too am a combat veteran and feel as strongly as you about the rights of Americans, all of them.

~ew

[Tigerwallah]

We have to fight discrimination from the top. That is why it is so important that we all send in our postcards to our representitives. See the thread "Project Next Week" in the Political Pagan. We need to show our numbers. The instructions say to use the line "I am a Pagan..." I filled several of mine out, "I am a Pagan registered voter." Just a thought.

Please all, if you haven't gotten those cards out, do so now!!! A world of difference can be made if we can just get the gov't to recognize that we are a formidable group of voters, and we are active members of our communities.

Big business finds us "easy pickins" because the gov't does not look upon us with favor. Change that, and change reality.

:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

[Sephiroth]

We had post cards:confused:

[gunner]

"I for one am sick and tired of Wiccans and other pagans being mistaken for roll-over-and-play-dead pacifists. When one of us gets screwed, we should use every legal means available to fight back, that includes hurting them in the pocketbook with sanctions.
Those of us who are Americans have rights that many died to protect. Use them!
Right Rick and Gunner?"

too bloody right mate! and "being a pacifist" does not mean "lie down and let them screw you", the only rights you really have are the ones you're ready to fight for. and your rights are not "given" by politicians or the state. not even the constitution. that only lists rights that already existed. while this particular incident may not be discrimination in law i'd tend to agree with our paralegal that it smells of breach of contract and possibly actionable on that basis.

[SeekerSandy]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Well... I don't have all of the facts, but from what I understand, there may have been a contract breach by E-witch... this is where the opinion of legallity had come from.
~ew

EW: None of us have all of the facts, but I am assuming that the original post was accurate. Nowhere in there do I see any remote resemblance of breach or other improper action made by E-Witch. They even went so far as to make full disclosure as to content and philosphy prior to consummation of contract.
I don't go out of my way to bash businesses, they are my bread and butter. BUT---I have no use for dishonest or unscrupulous operations.:smash:

[loopy]

Glad E-witch has found another server. :D:D Thanks for keeping us updated.

[eaglewolf]

"Controversial in nature."

I would suspect this is in their contract - No material which is controversial in nature. All be it, I do not have the contractual agreement sitting in front of me, but in most cases, the business decides what is "controversial in nature" and not the client.

I have to think the old line "including but not limited to" was in that contract somewhere... all in all, "we reserve the right to deem what is allowable on our server."

Discriminating, perhaps, but I still have a hard time believing this was illegal, or a breach of contract.

~ew

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Sephiroth
We had post cards:confused:

There is a pagan project going on to show our numbers to our gov't representatives. You use postcards from your state. See the Political pagan IAM project threads.

[SeekerSandy]

From what I read, EW, the host was informed prior to any contract being signed. although I doubt that such information was specifically mentioned, waived or disclaimed in the final contract; the fact is that full disclosure was made prior to the instrument being issued, signed and consummated.
Contract can well be oral in lieu of, or in addition to a written document.
But, put three lawyers in a room and you'll receive four opinions...

[Wyrdsister]

*hangs her head and shakes it in disbelief*

I really shouldn't be surprised by all of this, should I? :(

Wyrdsister

[genisis]

this is what i found in one of my newsletters that i get and i thought everyone should know both sides of this story before jumping. Not that I am saying they were right I just believe that as quickly as it's moving through the pagan community you just we just have to be careful.

Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:41:51 -0500
From: Troy Young <webmaster@tarotbygin.com>
Subject: Other Side Of The Story
This is a response from the hosting company of the E-Witch auction site that was mentioned as being a victim of discrimination yesterday.
From: services@beyondsolutions.com (Beyond Solutions Staff) Subject: Re: Discrimination against Pagan Auction House! Date: 20 Jun 2001 14:26:05 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/
I hope the people in this group use some discernment because there are a lot of false statements being made here. Just to set the record straight, this is the other side of the story. Here is a letter we sent to the proprietor of e-witch.com:
-------------------------------------------------------
Nickie,
I am very surprised and disappointed that you would send out an email to your customers which is untrue, misleading and in fact, slanderous.
This quote was never made by anyone at Beyond Solutions, Inc.
> "Sorry, we don't really want to host a Pagan site."
Yet, you attributed it to us. What we said was that it is our policy to not host "controversial" sites. Unfortunately we have had bad experiences with sites in the past which have auctioned pets, etc. I understand that reasonable people may disagree on this policy but this is a decision we came to years ago. Since there was a misunderstanding in the beginning about this we decided to give you some consideration to compensate you for any inconvenience.
Did you tell your customers that we found for you (using our time and personnel) another hosting company that is less expensive, closer to you, and has better Internet connectivity?
Did you tell your customers that we are not charging you for hosting and that your site is still to this day up and running on our servers?
Did you tell them that we are not even charging you for your
e-witch.com email address while you are trashing our company?
Did you tell your customers that because of the misunderstandings regarding our policies that we gave you a discount on the software of over $1000.00?
Did you tell your customers that, although at one point a refund was mentioned, we never received a request from you for a refund and we never refused to give you a refund? Did you tell them we structured a solution which wound up saving you a significant amount of money?
Did you tell your customers that because of this issue we have been on the phone with you almost everyday, always behaved professionally, and did our best to accommodate your needs? I don't claim we are perfect but we do try to correct our mistakes.
No, instead you told your customers to give us "a piece of their mind" and made numerous misstatements of facts. Nevertheless, we will still continue to service your account in a professional manner. I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish by that email (perhaps you were upset at the time) but if you have any decency, I think you owe us an apology.
- Beyond Solutions
--

[Dria El]

Welcome to Mystic Wicks genesis!!! Glad to see you found us ok!

[Dria El]

I've seen this before and there are several inconsistencies with that response. The one that stuck out when I first read it was there claim that she's using their email address for free to trash their company. In her original email/letter/whatever it specifically says that she paid a year in advance. <shrugs> Sounds like damage control on their part to me.

[EasternPriest]

Or perhaps we have less than a full story from either side........

[Mairwen]

FWIW, IMHO ~ that "response" letter doesn't sound very "professional" to me. :o

[genisis]

I think the letter was really professional considering the original email. I don't know much about this type of service but could it be that it is free email and e-witch misunderstood.Everyone seemed to jump on the band wagon when this first came out. My point was not that e-witch was right or wrong or beyond solutions was right or wrong. My point is that this was not checked out before everyone was ready to sue.It became a hot issue and with the negitive vibs flying there could have been harm done.This wouldn't have been the first time that someone got hurt because no one bothered to check things.I wish e-witch a bright and better future.I hope beyond solutions checks better in the future before taking on another client.