Language and ritual

[serenarian]

I posted a similar topic to this ages ago, but I was just wondering what your thoughts are on the use of different languages in ritual? Being Welsh, I occasionally invoke the Goddess and God in their Celtic names, and I do so in Welsh, simply because it feels right. I think that if I could speak Latin, I would try invoking the Roman pantheon in Latin as well, and this concept interested me - what are your thoughts? I know it depends on your knowledge of languages, and I speak Welsh, French and English to differing levels of skill, but I'd love to know your opinions on this. I'm thinking of writing a short article on it.

[Mnemosyne]

Good idea! Why don't you learn some basic words in Celtic? That's a start. I can tell you that I've actually studied ancient Greek and Latin for many years. Those languages are so difficult though. I seldome use them. Sometimes I do like to write the Greek gods' names in the Greek alphabet. That's as far as I really go these days though. I'm a total proponent of learning foreign languages, so I say "go for it!" :)

[writitive]

Wow, I think that it such a neat idea!

[Rain Gnosis]

If you understand the language it adds an air of mystery and magic. If you're interested in reconstructionism it makes connecting with another culture's Gods more fluid as well. If you do a search on Google etc. you might find some ideas online.

[Ben Gruagach]

I've read in some books on magick that performing rituals in a language other than your native tongue can really help you to focus on the meaning of what you are saying, providing of course you do know what you're saying. (In other words, it won't help if you don't know what the words are you're saying, but it does help if you have to work at saying what you mean in another language.)

I understand that some poets use this sort of trick too in their writing. They write the poem in a second language, revise it and polish it, and then as the last step translate it back to their native tongue. Apparently it makes the poem a lot more meaningful because so much attention had to be paid to the language.

[TYRRHENUS]

Hello silverarian!
I'm so glad to know there are other people out there interested in this subject. I try to do every thing in Latin, being primarily a Roman Reconstructionist.
I reference both Rain Gnosis and Ben here. The use of language within ritual both sets the mood and aids in visualization. However, one must be proficient enough in the language to understand the meaning of the words.
There should be unity within the NeoPagan movement/s. However, there is no reason we can not find unity from our own diversity. And as language is identity, further increasing the use of language within ritual could help covens and groves build community in the conventional sense of the word.
I wish you all luck should you write a paper. Perhaps a poll on the use of language within ritual might help.

[aefentid]

I'm slowly learning Old English.I can read it much better than I can speak it, but I do try to use at least a few phrases in ritual.

[serenarian]

Wow, I'm glad so many people are into this. Thank you for your viewpoints! I'm doing an English degree at college and I'd like to base a paper on this, not only about the use of languages in Pagan rituals, but in general life and I knew this would be a valuable research place. :D

Mnemosyne, I do speak Celtic - Welsh is a Celtic language. Were you referring to Gaelic, the language of Ireland and Scotland? I don't speak Old Welsh, but the variant that is still spoken in some parts of Wales.

Ben - I do sometimes use that in my poetry, being a poet as well. It was writing poetry in other languages that inspired me to try ritual in Welsh.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Ben Gruagach]

The only other comment I have is that you might find Enochian an interesting language to study. It's a language that John Dee "discovered" through scrying. It is supposed to be the language of angels, and is a distinct language with its own grammar and vocabulary.

It is exclusively a magickal language and is used in rituals by some ceremonialists. If you check Amazon.com you'll find at least a few books on Enochian language and magick.

[serenarian]

The only other comment I have is that you might find Enochian an interesting language to study. It's a language that John Dee "discovered" through scrying. It is supposed to be the language of angels, and is a distinct language with its own grammar and vocabulary.

It is exclusively a magickal language and is used in rituals by some ceremonialists. If you check Amazon.com you'll find at least a few books on Enochian language and magick.

Wow, thanks for that, Ben. I wasn't aware of that language and I'll definitely check it out. Can you recommend any particular books on the subject?

[Ben Gruagach]

Wow, thanks for that, Ben. I wasn't aware of that language and I'll definitely check it out. Can you recommend any particular books on the subject?

I don't have any books specifically on Enochian in my own library so I'm not sure which ones are the best. If you want to "go to the source" I'd recommend anything by John Dee.

They do talk about Enochian in Israel Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" in the section towards the back of the book titled "The Angelic Tablets." I've also read some interesting first-hand accounts about Enochian magick by Lon "Milo" DuQuette in his book "My Life with the Spirits."

There is also material on Enochian available on the web. I did a google search and found http://members.aol.com/AJRoberti/enochlng.htm for instance, which discusses Enochian linguistics in particular. This site might be of particular interest to you, although a number of the links are unfortunately dead-ends (404-page not found.)

There are a lot more documents on Enochian available at http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/enoch/index.htm (This site, www.sacred-texts.com , is one of my favourite primary source sites on the web. Lots of good stuff that is public domain!)

[Edited to correct a typo in a book title.]

[serenarian]

Thank you very much for the links, Ben. I'll check them out. Enochian sounds like a very interesting language - and it looks absolutely beautiful when written. I am intrigued. Thanks so much. :D

[Jenne]

Just wanted to mention that I've thought of this but never applied it. The only other language I know is French, but I would love to study another language and add that to my rituals for deeper meaning.

Thanks for bringing this up and sharing!

[Rain Gnosis]

There are a few published works (available in your bookstore and on amazon) by Dee.

The Enochian Magick of Dr John Dee: The Most Powerful System of Magick in Its Original, Unexpurgated Form - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567183670/103-6665664-4851821?v=glance
John Dee's Five Books of Mystery: Original Sourcebook of Enochian Magic - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578631785/103-6665664-4851821?v=glance

[Toad]

As for books on Enochian - I can personally recommend:

The Complete Enochian Dictionary (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1578632544/002-7916126-3083228)

Enochian Magic for Beginners (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567187471/002-7916126-3083228)

Enochian World of Aleister Crowley: Enochian Sex Magick (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561840297/002-7916126-3083228)

I have read all of these (among others) but I have found them most beneficial. Also Liber Chanokh by Crowley should be required reading as well. Truthfully Liber Chanokh should be ample for one to practice Enochian magic though I realize you are more interested in the language.

That out of the way...I frequently use Hebrew, Greek, and Latin in my operations. I find that their use increases my focus...and well...it just feels right. =)

[serenarian]

Just wanted to mention that I've thought of this but never applied it. The only other language I know is French, but I would love to study another language and add that to my rituals for deeper meaning.

Thanks for bringing this up and sharing!

You're welcome. I like to inspire people, hopefully I manage to do that sometimes. :D

[Ben Gruagach]

Another good collection of John Dee material:

http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/index.html

[Bix]

I'm trying to learn Scottish Gaelic (Gaedhlig) right now. It's hard, hehe....I've never learned a language fluently before.

[Ivy Artemisia]

I'd love to involve a different language in ritual. I was thinking of learning a little latin. I'm very close to my Celtic roots, but (after buying books and searching online) I've found that its difficult to speak if you are trying to learn via 'book-study.' :-/

~Ivy

[argento_occhi]

i'm teaching myself Egyptian hieroglyphs, more so i can write rather than speak it, but the speaking will probably come as a by-product. THe more i learn, the more i understand about the way they thought. It's intriguing.

[serenarian]

Glad to see this topic is still active. :D I'm intrigued about Enochian but as yet funds have not allowed me to purchase a book on it - thank you very much for all the links though! :D

[semi]

I've never done ritual that hasn't at least partly used language applicable to the sprits I'm working with. Yoruba and Lakota, mostly. It adds power. Feels good for me and them.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Yes I definitely think that incorporating the language of the particular culture you are focused on is extremely important. Like Bix above I'm in the process of learning Gàidhlig (btw, you spell it odd Bix, can't say as I've ever seen it spelled with the e as oppossed to the i) and find it to be a very useful tool.

[kaosxmage]

Typically I don't pay much attention to language when working with the Gods. I call them by their names, but I don't use many more cultural trappings after that. I am a strong supporter of the thought that Gods are immortal entities, that a far far far more vast than the cultures that birthed them. I don't think that Isis/Aset has any more trouble understanding english than spanish, or chinese, russian, or even the modern dialect of egyptians today.

For magick purposes, yes I have played with language. Most of the time, if I'm speaking, english is fine. But if I have a task where I really need help suspending the mundane for a bit, I turn to ouranian barbaric, or I'll consult a rough english to latin job LOL.

Anyway, you do what feels right for you. The universe is obviously very accomodating, or there wouldn't be a raampant range of beliefs eh? Of course, we could all just have wonderful imaginations.

Much love,
--Kaos

[indigo rain]

it's a wonderful idea, but i do good to speak english. :) for someone who's industrious and determined enough to do it though... that would be great.