Mary a goddess in Her own right?

[SilentStarWolf]

Ok, I'm no Catholic or anything, but I've heard the biblical Mary being called the Queen of Heaven and supposedly she was coronated? Anyone know anything about this?

[Olwenmsmind]

I have never heard of this corination but have alwasy felt that mary is a strong mother not just jesues shadow. She feels much more ancient and powerfull then her supposed son of god.

[mato]

Hell Ya! But that is the argument that protestants have made against catholosism scense forever... Mary is a goddess, and IMO the onlything about xtianity that links it to the rest of the world.
I got the whole goddess thing goen on though.... IMO the only universal spirit (I despise the use of the term God and occassionaly its impact on the term Goddess to me they imply some big bad wanting us on our knees and not for fun) is the 'goddess' refered to in every religion... The mother of the 'gods'...

[Rain Gnosis]

Do a search on Google for "Bible Queen of Heaven". The term actually refers to Ishtar, though some claim it refers to Mary now many others think that's a very false and horrible interpretation. The Lord is angered by their working for Ishtar, so it makes no sense that the term refers to Mary, at least from what I'm reading.

[SilentStarWolf]

Ok thanks all! :)

[Ben Trismegistus]

Do a search on Google for "Bible Queen of Heaven". The term actually refers to Ishtar, though some claim it refers to Mary now many others think that's a very false and horrible interpretation. The Lord is angered by their working for Ishtar, so it makes no sense that the term refers to Mary, at least from what I'm reading.
I was curious about that, so I checked the Unbound Bible. The references in question take place in the book of Jeremiah, chapter 44. As you say, the "gentiles" were performing sacrifices to the "queen of heaven", which really ticks God off. It's interesting to note that Ishtar is the Semitic name of the Sumerian goddess Inanna (whose story any good pagan should know). Given that Judaism (or at least its god) originated in Sumer (Abraham lived in the Sumerian city of Ur), the chapter in Jeremiah seems to be an obvious attempt to separate Judaism from the gods of its home country.

[Rain Gnosis]

Yep, that was the passage I was reading. There were other passages listed referring to that name too, IIRC. I can find it again if anyone wants but you should be able to find it through Google with those search words anyway.

[SilentStarWolf]

Yep, that was the passage I was reading. There were other passages listed referring to that name too, IIRC. I can find it again if anyone wants but you should be able to find it through Google with those search words anyway.
Thanks, I'll try those search words and also check out the story of Inanna (which I don't know) :)

[Ben Trismegistus]

Thanks, I'll try those search words and also check out the story of Inanna (which I don't know) :)
Here 'tis:

http://www.soulrebels.com/meg/bos/inanna.html

This is the Wolkstein/Kramer translation. Samuel Noah Kramer is one of the guys who originally found and deciphered much of "The Descent of Inanna".

"The Descent of Inanna" is the classic pagan myth of transformation through death and rebirth. In my opinion, it's an excellent metaphor for the spiritual transformation which many pagans go through as they delve deeper into their spirituality.

[SilentStarWolf]

Here 'tis:

http://www.soulrebels.com/meg/bos/inanna.html

This is the Wolkstein/Kramer translation. Samuel Noah Kramer is one of the guys who originally found and deciphered much of "The Descent of Inanna".

"The Descent of Inanna" is the classic pagan myth of transformation through death and rebirth. In my opinion, it's an excellent metaphor for the spiritual transformation which many pagans go through as they delve deeper into their spirituality.
Thank you, I'll be sure to bookmark/read it.

[cydira]

Ok, I'm not much of a scholar of the Marian cult, but I've a little bit of learning on the topic. First, if you look at the time that Mary was officially recognized as an important figure in Christianity, you realize that it was at roughly the same time as the cult of Isis was drawing followers away from Christianity. Now, if you don't want to take that aspect into account, then you have the various prayers and petitions addressed to her.

Perhaps the most well known is that of the Ave.

If you look at the Ave as a supporting document of the proposed divinity of Mary, it can be seen that she is addressed as a goddess directly. Here is the Ltin version of the Ave.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulierbus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et hora mortis nostre. Amen.

Here is the English translation.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed art thou amoung women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, now and at thehour of our death. Amen.

In the second line of this prayer, Mary is addressed as the Mother of God. This title is viewed as many to be a proof of Mary's divinity. The title of Queen of Heaven and Star of the Sea, if I am correct, are addressed to her after her acension. At the time where Mary was to die, she is born into Heaven by a chior of angels. She is then crowned by her Son as the Queen of Heaven. If I recall this same legend correctly, Mary is also the mistress of the Angelic host. Symbolically, she is associated with the lily mentioned in the book of Solomon and the woman clothed with the Sun in the book of Revelations. I am certian that there is a host of other identifications that are made between various books of prophecy in the Bible's Old Testament and the inconography of Mary.

Is it possible to argue that Mary is a goddess? I don't know. To be honest, it is possible on one hand to argue she is. But on the other hand it begs the question does this make Leda, the mother of Apollo and Artemis, a goddess as well? There are many other accounts of gods being born to mortal women through virgin births or through intercorse with a deity. Does this make these mortal women goddesses or are they exceptional women who were perhaps chosen for their unique qualities (Mary's holiness or Leda's beauty)?

[Rain Gnosis]

Cydira, you've brought up some interesting points. I don't think it's that unusual for special people to be elevated to Divine forms - some people work Medea, or Medusa, or Aradia as Goddesses, etc.

I guess my thought is that they don't have to be Goddesses to be a special part of your spirituality, but then, there isn't a strong dividing line between very spiritual people and Gods IMHO.

[mol]

Hmm. Well, the Mother of God bit can be likened to the myth of Zeus and Semele and their offspring, Dionysus. Dionysus was born a God in almost the same fashion as Jesus. The term Mother of God is more of a reference to Jesus than to Mary, imo.

[TYRRHENUS]

Catholics say she is not. Shouldn't that be good enough for us?

[Rain Gnosis]

Catholics say she is not. Shouldn't that be good enough for us?

*scratches head* I'm not a Catholic, so what does it matter if Catholics believe that?

[mysticrayne]

I just got my new bumper sticker funny i would this on here today..
MY GODDESS GAVE BIRTH TO UR GOD :) that does say it all. I have always saw Mary as a goddess she gave birth to jesus, um Im not into gods really i know with she comes he :) Im trying to teach the kids goddess and gods. I did get a book and am learning a few thngs on my own and what I know I try and explain to the kids. funny but they always prayed to the god and goddess light and dark.
ok im babbling. Merry part.

[SilentStarWolf]

I just got my new bumper sticker funny i would this on here today..
MY GODDESS GAVE BIRTH TO UR GOD :) that does say it all. I have always saw Mary as a goddess she gave birth to jesus, um Im not into gods really i know with she comes he :) Im trying to teach the kids goddess and gods. I did get a book and am learning a few thngs on my own and what I know I try and explain to the kids. funny but they always prayed to the god and goddess light and dark.
ok im babbling. Merry part.
I've seen that bumper sticker online. It's awesome.

[cydira]

Now your question if it matters how the Catholics view Mary is very interesting. I believe that it returns to the whole question of a mortal woman giving birth to a god.

Now, Mol's statement that the term Mother of God is in reference to Jesus, it's quite correct. Within the context of the Catholic church, Mary's status as Mother of God and practically all of her elevated status revolves around her son. Her sanctity comes from the role she has played in the divine drama of Jesus's incarnation. If it wasn't for her role, I honestly doubt she would have been noted in the books of the Bible or the apocryphical books. If so, it would have been as a passing note, like the woman who touched Jesus's cloak and was healed of her leprosy.

I believe that working with deities and important figures from any religion requires doing so in the context of that belief system. If not in the entire context, then approaching them within the correct mindset, which is that of the belief system. The Marian cult of the Catholic church which flourished during the High Middle Ages and is beginning to experience something of a resurgance doesn't appear to state that Mary is a goddess. It appears to argue, mind you I'm not Catholic, I've just done a bit of research, that Mary is accorded a special status in Heaven. By virtue of her status, which could be argued that it is bestowed to her as a gift of gratitude from her Son, Mary has the ability to interceed for petitioners, aid them in times of crisis, and to bestow blessings of a higher magnitude in relation to that of other sacred individuals. While to many outside of Catholicism, this would scream of her status as a goddess (which was the major argument that was raised against the Marian cult in history and by Catholics at large from the Reformation onward), there is a clear line drawn between Mary's status as the Queen of Heaven and that of divinity.

I believe that a close examination of the role of medieval queens and noblewomen really would clarify this situation. If you read the stories of the queens that were known as saints, you find that there's a series of qualities that they all have. There is the quality of charity, not only to the Church but also to the needy. Also, they're known for their wisdom, courage, and virtue. These sainted queens were also known or reputed to be mystics in their own right, recieving visions and spiritual illumination through prayer. As you read much of the literature that comes out of the medieval period, it's often presented that these queens are amoung the handmaidens of Mary. A handmaiden in relation to a queen, ideally, is that of her representitve, servant, and close friend. These women are described in the literature ofthe medieval period, especially when the Marian cult was at its highest, as playing these roles to Mary.

The Church, which is known as the Bride of Christ, is personified as a daughter-in-law to Mary. This doesn't exactly deprive Mary of her status as Queen of Heaven. Think of the royalty of Britian. One can have a Queen Mother, a Queen, and a consort to the Queen, all at the same time. This did happen during the medieval period, not terribly often or in all regions but it did happen. It's safe to argue that the hierarchy of Heaven's monarchy would most likely go in the status of Mary as Queen Mother, Jesus as King, and the Church as the Royal Consort. Now, this begs the question of what the role of God the Father is in this situation, here, we need to keep in mind that Jesus is frequently viewed as one with God the Father. As such, God the Father remains in status as King, as he stood before in the old Testament.

I believe that those who wish to look for a goddess in the Judeo Christian tradition is best looking at the aspect known as Sophia or Shekina. This aspect is also known as the Holy Spirit, which is also associated with Mary. Now, the Holy Spirit in much of the writings that we have from the medieval period onward tends to be viewed as a neutral and abstract entity. Occasionally, there may be an obtuse expression as Mary being a metaphore for the Holy Spirit or as Mary being something that would almost be described as an avatar of the Holy Spirit. It's with the apocryphical writings and the hebraic books that you find the Holy Spirit described as female.

Many biblical scholars argue that the Song of Solomon could be a love song between God and Israel, a man and wife, or God and the Holy Spirit. When reading the first of the two creation accounts in Genesis, the terms referring to God are plural and the creation of humanity as male and female is in the likness of this plural God. It is argued that of the stories of creation given in the Bible that this is most likely the oldest and that it is describing God the Father and the Holy Spirit as the two aspects of God taking part in creation.

So, if you want a Judeo-Christian goddess, go with the Holy Spirit. It's another aspect of the same god, but it is female, therefor a goddess. The gender neutral concept was introduced some time during the period between the writing of the last canonical books of the Bible and the Council of Nicea. Now, I can't exactly give you sources for where my information came from, other then my notes from the religion courses that I took at college. I honestly don't recall how much of this came from my instructor's own research into biblical texts and how much came from other sources. My syllibus is missing, so I couldn't even tell you for certian what texts we used.

[cydira]

I'm going to try to explain one of the statements that I made in my last post that is sure to upset a few people.

I said that it's best to work with a god or spiritual figure from a given religion within it's context.

Let me explain why I think this. You're working with gods of traditions that are potentially hostile to each other. If you mix up names, there's probably going to be an unplesant result to say the least. Even if they're not hostile to each other just because they might be offended. Offended gods are not plesant experiences, trust me on this one.

Now of course there's the larger archetype of a mother, for example, in the whole universe of gods. You can work with that archetype directly, but if you're going to work with a specific mother goddess, like Isis, it's best to understand the culture that worshipped her. Granted, we're not living in the same era as the early worshippers of Isis. I'm not saying that we should try to reconstruct that era, not every one has the ability to do that. You work with your limitations on this. But you would find it helpful to understand the environment that this goddess was worked with in during the past. What type of imagery is she associated with? Are there certian things that were a list of major no-nos for her followers? What gods was she on good terms with and what ones were she on less then good terms with? What cultures were well tolerated by the one that this goddess came from, this would imply that the different panthenons were at least some what compatible?

Building up this type of picture not only gives a practitioner a better feel for what this goddess is like, and a bit of an idea of how act correctly in working with the goddess in question, but it also helps to get an idea of how the goddess will be communicating with you. These gods are ancient and they may draw on things that will only make sense to you after doing some research into ancient history. Maeby that funny little glyph that you keep being shown in your dreams by the goddess in question, like Isis for example, may be a symbol for thier name and not a design for ritual furiture (take Isis's name in hiroglyphics as the example here). Yes, they are going to communicate with you in terms you can understand but they're not going to do it all the time.

That's where understanding where they come from helps you. If you refuse to do it or blatantly do the opposite, such as in the case of Mary, mother of Jesus, then they may ignore you or, worse yet, become offended and decide to teach you a lesson in manners.

J.R.R. Tolkine's statement about wizards could be applied to this situation as well. "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." Just change it around to gods and powerful spiritual beings. There's reasons why people referred to some gods by euphamisims and tried not to draw their attention unless absolutely necessary and reasons why other gods were kept happy as best as people could manage. Once you invite a god into your life or accept their invitation to be under their patronage, you begin to find that they're going to have a far reaching impact on your life. I'm probably going to be viewed as an alarmist by some for advising caution and as a stick in the mud for advising research. Still others will probably be offended by my whole idea and debate flaming me.

That may be, but I am going to stand by my argument. I've done the blindly invoke a god and invite their attentions. It's almost like a game of roulette. It's unpredictable and you won't exactly get what you want at the time. So I'm cautious. I don't like being a plaything to the gods. Be haphazard and they might view you as one, it's been a long time since they've gotten this much attention from any one and they're possibly bored.

[mol]

Great stuff, Cydira. Thanks for taking the time to post that wonderful rundown.

[cydira]

No prob. I knew that taking those religion classed would be useful at some point. :p

:T

[Ben Trismegistus]

*scratches head* I'm not a Catholic, so what does it matter if Catholics believe that?
Well, it's their mythology, isn't it?

To draw on one of your analogies from another thread, I could say that Isis was the Celtic Horse Goddess, but that wouldn't make it true. And the opinion of a Kemetic Recon would carry much more weight than mine.

[Rain Gnosis]

Well, it's their mythology, isn't it?

Hm, no, Mary does not belong only to Catholics.

As to Isis, if people were discussing on a forum whether she can be associated with horses I certainly wouldn't say "well the Egyptians didn't say so, isn't that enough for you?". Besides, there's a level of difference between discussing whether a goddess is a goddess of X and whether she can be considered a goddess at all, especially within a context where many believe we're all incarnations of the Gods.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Hm, no, Mary does not belong only to Catholics.

As to Isis, if people were discussing on a forum whether she can be associated with horses I certainly wouldn't say "well the Egyptians didn't say so, isn't that enough for you?". Besides, there's a level of difference between discussing whether a goddess is a goddess of X and whether she can be considered a goddess at all, especially within a context where many believe we're all incarnations of the Gods.
Well, as a theological figure, Mary fits into the Christian religion. The Protestants, obviously, do not view Mary as divine, as that is one of the reasons sited for their schism. Therefore, I think the opinion of the Catholics is worth considering.

And I don't think we can talk about personal divinity, as that makes the whole discussion moot. To say "Mary's a goddess just like I am" is a valid opinion, but doesn't really answer this question.

[Rain Gnosis]

OK, IMHO this is getting off on a tangent.

I said "I'm not Catholic" because someone else said "Catholics say she isn't, isn't that enough for you?". I didn't mean Catholic beliefs are unimportant, I meant I'm not a Catholic therefore no, what a Catholic says is or isn't true isn't "enough for me". You should know I'm not the kind of person who claims Christian beliefs aren't valid.

And no one said "Mary's a goddess, just like I am". There's a whole range of discussion when you consider the connection between the divine and humans, and manifestations of the divine, and how myths elevate heroes to gods, and gods to saints, etc.

[Ben Trismegistus]

OK, IMHO this is getting off on a tangent.
Actually, I still think this is relevant to the discussion. If we're trying to determine whether Mary should or shouldn't be considered a goddess, I think it's helpful to discuss what the Catholics think of her.

I said "I'm not Catholic" because someone else said "Catholics say she isn't, isn't that enough for you?". I didn't mean Catholic beliefs are unimportant, I meant I'm not a Catholic therefore no, what a Catholic says is or isn't true isn't "enough for me". You should know I'm not the kind of person who claims Christian beliefs aren't valid.
You're right. I'd missed the original post. Of course the view of the Catholics shouldn't be the end of the discussion. It's worth taking into account though.

And no one said "Mary's a goddess, just like I am". There's a whole range of discussion when you consider the connection between the divine and humans, and manifestations of the divine, and how myths elevate heroes to gods, and gods to saints, etc.
Well, you said "within a context where many believe we're all incarnations of the Gods." This is different from certain humans being elevated to divinity. I was simply saying that "we're all incarnations of the Gods" doesn't really apply to the discussion, because if we're all gods, it stands to reason that Mary was too, so there's no argument. But the discussion is whether Mary should be viewed as a divine figure separately from that.

[Rain Gnosis]

Actually, I still think this is relevant to the discussion.

I was actually referring to the argument as to what I said and what I meant by it.

Well, you said "within a context where many believe we're all incarnations of the Gods."

Yes, I thought there was conversation to be had along the line of thought that humans and Gods are not so separate as we like to think. For instance, some feel we're all part of the Divine, but there are those who are far more in tune with that connection - ie. Jesus, Mary, Buddha, etc. Others feel elevation to Godhead is given to people who appear to have that kind of strong connection. That's the direction in which I was heading, though maybe it was too much of a tangent for this thread. Again, my thoughts wander off.

At this point though, we're running the Ben & Rain show and I don't even remember what the thread was about in the first place.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Yes, I thought there was conversation to be had along the line of thought that humans and Gods are not so separate as we like to think. For instance, some feel we're all part of the Divine, but there are those who are far more in tune with that connection - ie. Jesus, Mary, Buddha, etc. Others feel elevation to Godhead is given to people who appear to have that kind of strong connection. That's the direction in which I was heading, though maybe it was too much of a tangent for this thread. Again, my thoughts wander off.
Ah. Now that's interesting stuff. That theory is presented in one of Bishop John Shelby Spong's books, Why Christianity Must Change Or Die. Spong postulates that what Christians think of as God is an all-compassing divine force (hm, where have I heard THAT before?), and that Jesus was the "Son of God" only in the sense that he had a greater and more powerful connection to the divine within himself. Which, in the way you describe it, would put him closer to Godhead than the rest of us. That's a theory that makes a lot of sense to me, and perhaps Mary fits into the same category.

(My only problems with Spong's works is that his theology strikes me as entirely pagan, so I'm unsure why he continues to call it Christianity.)

At this point though, we're running the Ben & Rain show and I don't even remember what the thread was about in the first place.
Hey, it's a free country. They can join in if they wish. ;)

[cydira]

I wander away from the thread for a little bit and the next thing I know it's the Ben-and-Rain show. Who'd that happen? :D

I'll toss my 2 cents in here.

I think it's very important to view how the Catholics approach Mary's divinity or lack there of. To disregaurd this is to disreguard the social context surrounding Mary's elevated role and thus a large part of the mythology surrounding her.

It takes the dividing line between divinity and humanity and shatters it when you take Mary out of the context that her role is developed for. When you elevate this woman to godhood, you diverge from thefacts of the Marian mythology.

Mary wasa mortal woman, blessed with the burden of bearing a child that was both divine and human. She chose this burden and accepted the blessing that came with it of her own free will.

To say that Mary is a goddess then would beg the question as to why she allowed her son, whom she cherised, to die such an cruel and unjust death. It asks why Mary suffered in laborand why she would choose the difficult life that she had during the child hood of Jesus, where they spent a good prtion of their time in flight from individuals who desired to kill Jesus.

It also begs the question where was she when the sufferings of Israel and her people happened. Why didn't she interceed?

It is possible to bury the thread with further examples, but the idea of Mary as a goddess is alein to the culture that developed her Mythology. Introduce it and you violate the mythology in a gross proportion. You disreguard the attributes of the figure that you're elevating to godhood and create a bastardized version to suit your own needs. It is for these reasons that I personally respect the viewpoint of the Catholics and say that Mary is not a goddess.

[Ben Trismegistus]

To say that Mary is a goddess then would beg the question as to why she allowed her son, whom she cherised, to die such an cruel and unjust death. It asks why Mary suffered in laborand why she would choose the difficult life that she had during the child hood of Jesus, where they spent a good prtion of their time in flight from individuals who desired to kill Jesus.

It also begs the question where was she when the sufferings of Israel and her people happened. Why didn't she interceed?
Well, this is a very complicated issue you've raised here. If God (or the gods) is omnipotent, why is there pain and suffering in the world? No culture has answered that question adequately. The simplest answer is, "God works in mysterious ways", which is, of course, a non-answer. Another answer is that we would not understand the joys of life if we didn't also have sorrows.

My answer is somewhat more complicated: "Sh*t happens." Sometimes mothers and puppies have to die, and God is either unwilling or unable to stop it. And that's just the way the universe is.

So even if Mary were a goddess, there's no reason to believe that she would intercede on behalf of Israel. She had a task to complete, which she completed to the best of her abilities. Jesus' destiny (for lack of a better word) was to die on the cross for (so they say) the salvation of Mankind. Goddess or no, there's nothing Mary could have done to stop that.

There's a ton of death/resurrection myths in pagan mythology: Odin, Osiris, Inanna, etc. In these myths, the death and resurrection are symbolic necessities in order to achieve spiritual fulfillment -- i.e. one must journey to the underworld in order to understand one's full existence. The only difference in the Christian mythology is that they take theirs literally.

That said, I don't believe Mary is a goddess. I believe that modern pagans (and probably, some ancient pagans) recognized Mary as fitting the role of a goddess in the mythology, and assigned her that role. But I think that, from the context of the mythology itself, she was just a particularly special woman.

[Delia_PsychoBatz]

Well, I think you could look at it like she bore the son of God, she is revered in the church, and maney people pray only to her, so why couldn't she be? I think that in the traditional sense, no, she would not be seen as a goddess, but maney Wiccans are Christians with a Wiccan slant. They believe the Christian myths but compromise or change them to fit in with their beliefes, just like maney other people do with older religions (Celtic, Egyptian, etc...). So, I think it's just a state of mind and where you would want to take something like that.

[Desert_Yaqui]

Looks like this thread needs a little Catholic influence...I am no longer a practicing Catholic and haven't been for a VERY long time. In fact, the only time I ever step foot in a Church these days is when someone in my family gets married or dies. As I walk my Path, I do find the old religion slowly fading away... However, I have discovered that this religion CAN be cultish in a sense that you feel like you are doing a "horrible wrong" by turning away. If they only knew I was a member of this forum... :lol:

While I believe that there is no real answer to this question, the best way to formulate a response to answering this question of whether or not Mary is considered a goddess is to really take a hard look at Catholics demographically. If you look to traditional parishes in New York, Boston or Dallas, the role of Mary within the Church is not quite so prominent and is she is most definitely not considered a Goddess in her own right. However, if you begin to view Mary from a altogether different demographic standpoint, her status indeed changes. To support this statement one only has to look to the heart of Mexico and to Latin/Hispanic communities and their view of their Patron Goddess, La Virgen de Guadalupe.

Ironically enough, La Virgen de Guadalupe appeared to the Aztec, Juan Diego at Tepeyec, which is holy ground consecrated to Tonantzin (the Moon Goddess). In Mexico, thanks to the Spanish Conquest, the Goddess Tonantzin was replaced by the Virgin Mary. Over the years there has arisen a great and serious debate as to whether or not this apparition actually occured, however THAT is another story for another thread, and the point I am making here is that amongst this group of people [demographically speaking] Mary is INDEED considered a goddess.

I am 1/2 Yaqui and 1/2 Mexican--and I had a hard core Catholic upbringing, so I do have some background and first hand experience on the whole concept of Mary as a Goddess. The Virgin Mary is very near and dear to the Mexican/Latin community. And whether my Grandma would have agreed with me or not, she most definitely revered the Virgin Mary as a Goddess. She had Shrines to her and all! My Gramdma [like most Mexican/Latinos], lit candles before she prayed to her and even placed offerings to her statue and pictures of La Virgen. Does this practice sound familiar to anyone? Maybe just a bit of Goddess rite going on here?

Whether Mary is in picture or statue form, most Mexican/Latinos have her likeness in their humble abodes. I do--I inherited my Grandma's precious picture of La Virgen that she brought back with her from one of her many pilgrimages to Mexico. Whether Vatican Rome likes it or not, La Virgin IS most definitely the Patron Goddess of the Americas.

~dy

[Mau]

'As I walk my Path, I do find the old religion slowly fading away... However, I have discovered that this religion CAN be cultish in a sense that you feel like you are doing a "horrible wrong" by turning away. If they only knew I was a member of this forum... '

Oh man is that true!
I was raised Roman Catholic..and from what I was taught (through Catholic school) Mary is not a Goddess to Catholics. They mostly give her credit as somewhat of an 'elevated' Saint. Being that she bore the Messiah, she has a special place in Heaven, and is revered..and is a major Patron saint. One thing very alien to other Christian religions, is the Catholic belief in, and prayer to patron Saints. They have some powers of their own..you can pray to just a Saint for something that they specialize in, or you can pray to a Saint for help in getting God's attention., as sort of a go-between. Mariolatry, the belief that prayer to Mary can be salvific, poses a potentially significant danger if Mary's role is deemed either preeminent over Christ's role or in any way necessary. Mary is only prayed to for comfort, and help in swaying Jesus due to her Maternal role. That is it according to Catholic belief. But..an interesting loop hole in Catholicism, you can pray to anyone or anything...as long as you aren't praying to them/it for your Salvation. They see this prayer as fruitless and unsubstancial.

[Nymph]

But..an interesting loop hole in Catholicism, you can pray to anyone or anything...as long as you aren't praying to them/it for your Salvation. They see this prayer as fruitless and unsubstancial.I never heard that one before...hmm...something to think on.

I went through seven hellish years in a Catholic school, and I believe it was Mary's 'goddess-like' feeling that got me through it. I would sit in Church and just stare at Her statue, it is so beautiful. It was like I could actually feel Her presence, my first divine feeling. Never got that with God and just a bit with Jesus...

Then again, I've never prayed for my salvation...didn't find it necessary.

[Niah]

Another former catholic here....one thing I always found interesting is the symbolism still used on the catholic altars for the trinity casted in a patriarchal light. The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost (Sopiha) are each represented as many world religions (including occult religions) view such a Trinity -as the Masculine Divine (Father/God) The Feminine Divine (chalice/grail/Goddess) and the Son (Body of Christ/result of the Unity of the Male & Female ~known as Holy Communion).

There can even be a whole separate thread on the commonly overlooked role of what many believe is the more accurate woman befitting the Sophia, Mary Magdelene. I find it very interesting to study that particular Mary as the Sophia, as she was in some sense the Sacred Concubine of the Magus Jesus ~ only the catholics would never have a prostitute elevated on any level, despite what her actual role may have been.......

~Peace
Niah

[Kadynas]

"In the second line of this prayer, Mary is addressed as the Mother of God. This title is viewed as many to be a proof of Mary's divinity. The title of Queen of Heaven and Star of the Sea, if I am correct, are addressed to her after her acension. At the time where Mary was to die, she is born into Heaven by a chior of angels. She is then crowned by her Son as the Queen of Heaven."
This is pretty much what we were taught in Catholic school... Catholics would never utter the word Goddess, and most of their respect for her does revolve around her role as Jesus' mother... but I knew a few Catholics that prayed to her as "the Queen of Heaven". And she does seem to get a variety of titles, some of which end up as the names of churches "Our Lady of Grace/Peace/Heaven/Snows"... :)

[Mojocrowe]

Hmmm... I've always thought of Mary as a Goddess in her own right. It would be easy to say that every woman is a goddess in her own right as well, alternately though....

I mean, even if her personality and life story was overlaid over earlier virgin birth and goddess stories, it only goes to show how the thread of the Goddess was not entirely lost through centuries of repression and oppression. Look at how featured and popular she is in Latin America, one of the last most recent places to recieve Christianity. She is revered in some places almost before Jesus Christ.

Then there's her name. Mary. Derivative from teh root of Mar, or Seas or oceans. Well. That speaks volumes to me. When I think of Mary, I think of her as a Trinity, Maiden, Mother and Crone. Although most people, I don't think remember or view her in her Crone aspect.

Thanks fo rthe discussion, and the other info. I'm going to do some research now, and take a look at that Queen of Heaven reference. I do suspect thart I'll find it to be another attempt by the Christian Church to assimilate a strong preexisting deity, though, like Inanna or Isis....


Mojocrowe

"I speak fluent patriarchy, but it's not my Mother tongue."

[Hoot]

I never heard that one before...hmm...something to think on.

Well, I was never Catholic, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't that the whole idea behind patron saints for various professions and particular problems? I thought they interceded... one prays to them, sort of like middle managers, and they bend the CEO's ear... a little bureaucratic for me. Of course, there is always the distinct possibility I don't understand this concept, so am characterizing it incorrectly.

Something I find interesting is the idea of milagros charms... to me, they're at the very least sympathetic magic. But Catholicism practiced in Central and South America has always seemed much less rigid in terms of adhering strictly to doctrine - for instance, the Day of the Dead celebrations or Zozobra.

And I believe in those countries that Mary is revered on the level of a goddess, whether the Vatican approves of it or not.

By the way, cydira, your comments have really added a lot to this discussion for me.

[Nymph]

Hoot,

I have heard of the praying to saints, to help and have them direct the prayer. What I didn't hear of was the 'you can pray to anyone for anything, except salvation' part. I really don't remember hearing that before. :)

I should go ask my fiancé's Grandma...I bet she'd know... ;)

[Hoot]

Oh, gotcha, Nymph... now I get what you were saying. I guess I assumed Mau meant Catholics could pray to any saint, but you're right - I don't think they are *supposed to* pray to just anyone. Although I have a Catholic friend who prays to her dead relatives, so maybe that is what Mau meant.

[calderthesolitary]

What "we" call Goddess, is, in fact the very same views of the Blessed Mother...however, in respect to the Catholics (and the rest of humanity, for that matter) she was, and is not denied to have been human of flesh and blood.

What many know to be Goddess the fashion is of a spiritual deity with human "qualities" (such as the human figure with all of the senses and appendiges and hair and gowns and such...)

Mary, the human, wasn't exactly "lowly" or "common" as she was a blueblood. (in Jewish custom, the mother of a child carries the lineage where the father makes the new family to carry on that lineage.)

As Jesus is viewed as King, it's a VERY human tendancy to coronate her as (if anything) Queen Mum...regardless of any scripture to back it up.

Now, I come from a Witching family and have been Pagan from the day I was born...however, I have the greatest respect for the Catholic views of Mary. Jesus' proper name was "Immanu-El" which means in Hebrew "G-d with us" (as in, G-d on Earth among us, the people). Of course, in the great stories of gods and goddesses most of us know that [the] god isn't always the consort of [the] goddess, as we view and celebrate every Beltaine, but the son, as we celebrate with the lighting of the Yule fire and the parades of lights on Imbolc -- and, of course, traditionally the time of year when Jesus was "born" (even if it's not directly on Dec. 25th like they say, but, in that general time of year -- perhaps a season before or after) and so, the whole relationship does fit.

May, in the Church, she (her statue) is crowned with flowers. During the Immaculate Conception festivities (remembering, of course, that the Immaculate Conception was HERs and not Jesus') she (her statue) is paraded in the streets and decorated with beads and flowers and adoration. Even in the Christmas week, she is adored in the stable dioramas and such with an empty cradle -- and during the Advent "Lo, how a Rose e'er Blooming" she, of course being the Rose ready to bear her seed that she spent nine of her very human months gestating.

Even though history is showing more and more that she was more than just Jesus' mother, but that Jesus had brothers and sisters by her, she's still the epitome of purity in the Church because of the "virgin" stories.

Everything about her, be it in scripture or other "discoveries" SHOUTS "Goddess" -- and the Church, in using the Pagan "ways" against the Pagans just to get them to convert peacefully had something not only to fit the place of [the] god and goddess, but, also had the specialised rituals in place.

)O(
Calder

[Seamus MacNemi]

My own take on this whole business is that she was considered a goddess only by those who considered Jesus a God.Such people were not a majority by any stretch.
The Godhood of Jesus was promoted by his Greek and Roman followers not by the Jews who were his original disciples and certainly not by him. For Jesus to have refered to himself as a God would have violated both the tone and temper of everything He had believed in and held true. Certainly He himself never claimed to be such. At no point in the Bible does he ever make such a claim.
Jesus did not become a God until sometime after the destruction of Herods Temple some sixty years after his death. and that happened only because of the antisemitic Greeks and Romans who took over his cult who wanted to distance themselves as much as possible from their Jewish progenitors.
Marys Goddesshood was as a surogate for Ishtar, The Supreme Mother Goddess worsshipped by most if not all pagan peoples of the time.

[Nymph]

I don't believe Ishtar was worshipped in Ireland when paganism was prevalent...kind of hard to say 'most if not all pagan peoples'...
Unless you mean in that area of the world...but still hard to say.

[KaliGiri5]

Ok, I'm no Catholic or anything, but I've heard the biblical Mary being called the Queen of Heaven and supposedly she was coronated? Anyone know anything about this?


Coming from a Catholic background...Mary is worshipped much like a goddess..
she can even be seen as high as Jesus.
prayed to more than Jesus.
saints are like angels..Mary is a saint but higher than an angel.


the worship of "Mari" is older than the Christ himself...
She was a goddess long before Jesus was the son of god.
she was a fertility goddess from Syria..
she's from the "Arab" side of the middle east,
I think..she was a deity at first but real women took that role and now known
as that deity.

Some say the "Mary" is Mary Magdalene..and not the mother of Jesus
she's the "black bride" or "black madonna" that is how they describe both Mary the mother and Mary Magdalene.
there is also some connection to the Queen of Sheba who was from Yemen her name was Makeda..said to be a "virgin" when she came to see King Solomon..some stories say he raped her other say they had an affair..
She supposedly had a son with Solomon who was to be some golden child and would rule Solomon's kingdom.
so nothing of Solomon's went to that son...(Jewish blood must be from the mother not the father)
might be part of the the reason for the chaos there.
same story for Abraham...the Jewish & Arab twist..what was to go to the Arab went to the Jew instead.
he sent his Arab wife to Africa with his son on a mule....
hence the whole "birthright" story between the brothers in the bible
**and NO i'm not anti-anybody...**

All the females..Mary-mother...Mary Magdalene..the Queen of Sheba all was said to have a child(kind of a secret love child) that they left and went to Africa with...then it becomes a riddle after that as to what happened and where they went.
I know Mary didn't return to Israel until Jesus was about 30 when he went back.
not knowing if this legend from the past(Indian roots) that just changed like gossip.
it's almost like the same story told over and over with different names if you ask me.
**also in older Jewish text & Arab text agree Mary was pregnant by a "king" type person(all Kings was seen as a LORD of that land that they ruled)
and Joseph is her cousin and not the child's father.
I've even heard Eve herself was Mary and Adam was HER father who gets her pregnant..so who knows

[Seamus MacNemi]

The original Gods of the Celts came to Ireland with them from their ancestral lands of beginning inthe southcentral steppes of Eurasia. Before they were known as Celts( A Greek name ) they were called Scythians by the self same Greeks. The ancient Gaelic tongue is more akin to Sanscrit than to any subseqquent Eurpopean tongue.
As far as the Goddesshood of Maryis concerned, I'll stick to my original statement. She wasn't considered a Goddess until long after her death and then only when the Christian cult became dominant in the Roman Empire.

[Kadynas]

I think I remember hearing that Isthar was a babylonian goddess? At any rate, no she wasn't a celtic one... I have heard stories though that say the church used attributes of Isis, Innanna and other pagan goddesses when describing their "vision" of Mary but I don't have any idea how accurate that would be... :)

[Seamus MacNemi]

I think it should be remembered thet the mother of Jesus was a Jewish Mother. As Such it would have been improper for her to be considered a Goddess .
Ishtar, Astarte, Esther, Easter, Astoreth, Astoroth,. All the same As well for the God Bel who was called Baal amongst the Babylonians and the Ancient Hebrews

[cinnamonfeathers]

I know this is a little off course for the question of this thread, however I'd like to say to Cydria, thank you much for the wealth of information- Most especially your post #19. This is the same thing I try to pass on to those I meet who are finding their way on to the Pagan path. It is truly not enough to just say the words on any path, but to Know Why you are saying those words, and the history and interactions of the Goddesses and Gods one chooses to come into their lives. To some of the young people I have spoken with, I have used an example closer to home, and not so ancient - Within the Native American Tribes, there were tribes that were in constant conflict with other particular tribes- one would not call on the spirits from conflicting tribes to come together in the same circle. At the same time, working with the spirits from one of these tribes could cause conflict in your own life if you also befriend a spirit from one of their opposing tribes. One needs to know when working with any spirits who were Their friends or enemies - then one knows who they should or should not invite into ones own life.
(gee, it seems to make more sense when I explain it in person, I've never written the explanation before!)
........ As for the thread about Mary, I have for the last seven years had Mary, Jesus and Mary Magdaline be present at nearly all my meditations. The first time it happened I was rather speechless, but when they kept coming into my meditations, I realized that these are spirits that I am supposed to work with(and not push away)and really it's pretty darned cool! I believe that I relate to them mostly because I was raised Catholic -however I also work with other non-christian deities as well. The Catholics ( I think Christianity in general) frown on using the "goddess" word, because to them their is only One God above all. I don't know what the Higher Power truly is, but I do know that I believe that Mary is a Goddess in my eyes :o) And if it takes being a Goddess to be able to help someone in their magick, then that is what Mary should be, because she helps me all the time!

~peace ~blessings & )O( moonlight~
~have a peaceful & pleasant day~!~

[Mau]

Oh, gotcha, Nymph... now I get what you were saying. I guess I assumed Mau meant Catholics could pray to any saint, but you're right - I don't think they are *supposed to* pray to just anyone. Although I have a Catholic friend who prays to her dead relatives, so maybe that is what Mau meant.

Yes and no. Catholics can pray to Saints and the dead..that's common knowledge, and one of the reasons they're scoffed at by other Christian religions. BUT the Catholic Church itself does not consider prayer to ANYTHING (Zues, Hecate, Buddah, the tree stump in your backyard) detrimental to your faith or worship in the church as long as you aren't praying for your soul's salvation. You want to pray to Buddah for enlightenment, Allah for retribution.etc it's within the limits. This is something I believe came about during Christianity's struggle to tame Paganism. Their first approach was not to make it a sin or demonize it..but to make it holy. A staple of Christianity a LONG time ago once said 'if you come upon people in the countryside worshipping a tree..do not condemn their souls or ask them to repent...simply bless the tree in the name of God and leave them to it.' That is not verbatim..as I can't remember every single word..but it's as close as it gets.

[Seamus MacNemi]

I must admit that I find this all very confusing. Mary was a Jewess and A Jewish Mother. Never anything else, no matter what the Catholic Church may hold up in term of belief. The Talmud holds it a sin to set anything eqqual to or above God and that includes both Mary and Jesus. According to Jewish Belief (and that's the authority in this matter because it was the only authority in existence at the time of Jesus. Not the Church or any other theological body)
What's more, Jesus was an Orthodox Jew occording to the strict religious beliefs of His time, therefore, so was his Mother. So any argument to the contrary or otherwise is just passing gas In this sense ,Christian Beliefs are largely irrelevant

[SilverPheonix]

Ok-
Mary is refered to as the Queen of HEaven, because she was the mother of Jesus, Son of God. "She was Assumed into Heaven (Body and Soul) and was Crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth because of her undying faith and saying "Yes" when asked to bare Jesus" End quote of my 8th grade theology teacher.
So I guess she is a goddess in her own right... depends on who you talk to.

[tinuviel42]

Catholics say she is not. Shouldn't that be good enough for us?
I know that this is quite an old post, and admitedly I have not finished reading the rest of the thread, so I apologize if I'm being redundant, BUT...
I was raised as a Roman Catholic, in an Italian family (at least on my Dad's side--they're the ones who had the most to do with my religious upbringing) and every May Day until my grandmother passed away, because I was "The Maiden", I got to crown the statue of Mary in my grandparent's dining room. Not only that, but it was done as a procession, with the rest of my family singing (I wish I could remember the tune) "We love you Queen Mary, we crown you today, the Queen of the Angels, the Queen of the May." One of the things that I always ENJOYED about Catholicism, was the near-polytheism and the ritual. It's one of my most pleasant memories from my childhood, and always made me so proud, carrying that little gold painted ceramic crown to the place on Mary's head.
So there. :P

[Seamus MacNemi]

I grew up in a mixed family Irish and Jewish. We cerlebrated both Christmas and Chaunukka .But we celebrated both as representatives of who we were, not as representatives of the Deity. I personally do not believe in deifying mortals no matter who they are or were and I do not confuse my Gods and Goddesses with any human being either living or
dead no matter what claim to fame they might hold. I do not recognise any of the claims of the Catholic church as valid in my pantheon and the decisions of the Council of Nicea have no bearing on my life.
I can recognise Jesus as a messenger, but that is all I will grant him
His mother is important only in that she was most probably the singular most defining inflluence iin his life.

:geez:

[LadyCelt]

does the Bible speak of Mary ascending into Heaven or not dying? I know of this belief but have not seen it, unless I miss it.

[Xemnas4]

I think she ascended into Heaven. I'm not quite sure: I was raised Christian, but I was never forced to read the Bible or go to church. from everything I've gathered, Mary became the Christian equivalent of the Goddess, without giving her an actual place in the pantheon, besides the Mother of Jesus of course.

[plumedsnake]

does the Bible speak of Mary ascending into Heaven or not dying? I know of this belief but have not seen it, unless I miss it.

NOpe. It 's not biblical, but then neither is a lot of other stuff that christians believe. The trinity is not biblical either. And it is touch and go whether Jesus is actually exclusively God.

[wolfjan1]

Catholics say she is not. Shouldn't that be good enough for us?
OK, we have to remember here that the "Christian" bible was written by men with different political agendas. Mary, in the "New testament" was put on a pedestal, and after that all women were put up to the impossible task of being like her. Other important women were referred to as property or "repented whores."
I am not saying this is right or wrong, just as how it was written.
So, that is the problem I have with "organized religion." That and having testosterone filled killing sprees in the name of ANYONE'S God.

[wolfjan1]

Another former catholic here....one thing I always found interesting is the symbolism still used on the catholic altars for the trinity casted in a patriarchal light. The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost (Sopiha) are each represented as many world religions (including occult religions) view such a Trinity -as the Masculine Divine (Father/God) The Feminine Divine (chalice/grail/Goddess) and the Son (Body of Christ/result of the Unity of the Male & Female ~known as Holy Communion).

There can even be a whole separate thread on the commonly overlooked role of what many believe is the more accurate woman befitting the Sophia, Mary Magdelene. I find it very interesting to study that particular Mary as the Sophia, as she was in some sense the Sacred Concubine of the Magus Jesus ~ only the catholics would never have a prostitute elevated on any level, despite what her actual role may have been.......

~Peace
Niah
Pretty Judgemental, Huh?

[Arion]

According to Christian tradition, Mary is NOT a goddess. Her associations do come from goddesses who were worshipped in Rome at the time (Isis, mainly), but no, Mary herself isn't a goddess.

[LadyCelt]

I found in Jeremiah 44:17 the mention of worshipping to the "queen of heaven" Asherah/Ashtoreth.

Also, a friend told me hera is associated with blue. is this true?

[Garm]

Remember the Basques are the last remnants in Europe of a Pre Indoeuropean and Pre Semetic culture that had spread through much of Eurasia and beyond

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_%28goddess%29

For all we know this might be the oldest name of THE Goddess

[MoonBreath]

since Mary was one of two aspects of the Goddess that appeared to me in my first, at least remembered, dreams of divinity, the concept of this thread intriqued (sp?) me a lot. Thanks so much to those whose responses were very interesting and kept me from doing more of my office work! lol! :wave::yikess:

[Toby Stimpson]

I just have one question, and please dont take this the wrong way

Is it not ignorance and arrogance to label and reimagine a figure in another religion in your own image? Eespecially when that figure is not a part of your own religion or spirituality?

I mean some say she's a Goddess, others don't/ But whats important is to look at the Religion that she is apart of and take that interpretation. It's really ignorant I think to take your own ideas and interpretations, especially if you do not belong to that religion and then say that a figure is something that that figure says she is not. There may be similarities to Goddesses, but if she is not called a Goddess by her worshipers, then is it not arrogant to label her as one?

If I go out and say that Brittney Spears is a Goddess in her own right, and Im coming from some society that does not have Brittney Spears as a major figure... who is right in this situation? And does it make brittney Spears a Goddess just because someone from outside that society says that she is?

[Garm]

Is it not ignorance and arrogance to label and reimagine a figure in another religion in your own image? Eespecially when that figure is not a part of your own religion or spirituality?

IAnd does it make brittney Spears a Goddess just because someone from outside that society says that she is?

Established religions have been some of the worst perpetrators of precisely this sort of reimagining. Taking the historical Jesus as a case in point, how do you think he would have reacted to the rather vengeful way he is portrayed in the book of Revelations?

And if some one praying to or "working with" Britney as a Goddess is succsessfully able to tap into and use the psychic energy generated by her fan base to achieve some mystical or magical ends, I for one, am not about to argue with the methodology.

Time was when I considered myself a chaos magician, I appreciated their iconoclastic approach to deity. But later I came to see that not as something new but simply a return to the somewhat cynical "what's in it for me?" attitude that characterised the spirituality of our distant forbearers.

The people who have worked to instill respect and loyalty to their chosen faiths have done so for their own temporal power.

[imapepper]

Here in Mexico Mary is a goddess (La Virgen de Guadalupe) and often referred to as "Santa Maria Tonantzin", Tonantzin was an Aztec goddess, they built the Basilica de Guadalupe over Tonantzins pyramids. When La Virgen de Guadalupe appeared to Juan Diego, she appeared in the form of a vagina with stars on her robe and the Catholic church has no qualms about this (though they'll never tell you about the vagina/stars part and remain hush about the connection with Tonanztin). The Aztecs saw no difference between Mary/Tonantzin, and Mexico still hasn't made that split as a collective whole religiously. You get more prayers here to Mary than to Jesus and every few blocks in any given neighborhood, there are miniature shrines to Mary full of candles, flowers, and even offerings of fruit, bread, etc.

I'll take pictures of some soon to show if anyone is interested in seeing them, there's one two blocks from my house and another that's closer, about half a block.

:hahugh: