Why is it so wrong to do what you will?

[Tammy Sullivan]

Just for general discussion and to appease my own curiousity, if someone wrongs you, why is it so widely believed that you would be better to let it go?
Why can we not do tit-for-tat? We strive for balance....retribution makes sense in an odd sort of way....*pondering*

[Rain Gnosis]

Ooh, good question to play with, Greta ;) For me, I believe people create their own universe - if they hold onto bitterness, guilt, and anger, they will find every reason to continue being so. In short, they make their life shitty, I don't have to help!

I think when people allow themselves to harbour energy like that that isn't harmonious or helpful, they are effectively cursing themselves. I've seen at least two people totally get blinded by paranoia - they insist they're being attacked by X, and by doing so they build up their own nasty energy and have to live in it. They keep cycling, insisting they're being attacked, even trying to attack back themselves, and sink further and further into disharmony. Maybe it started with guilt, maybe they projected their bad feelings on someone else (like deciding X is angry at them because they're angry at themselves!), maybe it was just a misunderstanding.

It's too easy to attribute our own problems to other sources, to say "oh I'm feeling sick" and rather then admitting *I* need to consider what I might've done to make myself sick, say *someone else* did it. Often I think we're taught to go on the defensive and attack back much more then we're thought to spend time meditating, checking our own aura, looking at our chakras, spiritual selves, etc. and consider the energies we bring into our own life. IMHO, we should focus on our own strength and spiritual evolution, and not make it harder for those who already feel angry and bitter and create their own problems.

The adept magician will be so in control of his or her own energy that someone else sending anything is like a buzzing fly. I don't even think curses are //wrong//, I just think sending negative energy is rarely the best answer and too easily hurts the sender as much as the sendee, if not more.

[Theres]

The adept magician will be so in control of his or her own energy that someone else sending anything is like a buzzing fly. I don't even think curses are //wrong//, I just think sending negative energy is rarely the best answer and too easily hurts the sender as much as the sendee, if not more.

words of wisdom! :)

[Tammy Sullivan]

So, taking that as a guideline -- the creating your own reality -- if you consider revenge to be standing up for yourself instead of negative, then perhaps it could affect you by making you stronger?


(I agree with all you said, but am in a mood to play ;) )

[Rain Gnosis]

So, taking that as a guideline -- the creating your own reality -- if you consider revenge to be standing up for yourself instead of negative, then perhaps it could affect you by making you stronger?

I don't consider revenge to be standing up for yourself though - to me the term revenge itself implies "getting back" at someone. It's more then standing up for yourself, it's also going on the offensive, IMHO. I think there's room to stand up for yourself without getting revenge.

If that makes sense ;)

[Ben Trismegistus]

I think of retribution as "sinking to another's level". If someone wrongs you, does wronging them back really make things better?

I believe in making choices based on my personal ethical guidelines, not as reactions to other people's actions towards me.

[Calzaer]

I sort of ascribe to a rather Taoist idea on this issue, that being the soft and bending overcome the strong and rigid. Unless I'm seriously provoked, I respond to attacks (physical and magical, haven't gotten the verbal bit down yet) by using the force of the act against its owner. Letting a magical "zap" go through you, rather than stopping it and sending one of your own, can be nearly as painful to the attacker if they were expecting a resistance force. In physical terms, they punch at nothing and wind up flat on their faces.

In such a case, revenge would only imply kicking them while they're down. Which I only do to truly nasty people, like kitten-thieves and divorce lawyers.

Of course, malevolent astral entities out to eat me or other people don't get such consideration, but that's another story altogether.

[Mindflayer]

I agree that it's -usually- a good idea to just let it go (why get worked up over pety things?)



now, if it's something BIG (like someone murdered/raped a family member)... I'd hunt the bastard down...

[Tammy Sullivan]

ah so it depends on the DEGREE of the wrong? small offenses let go, but big ones, retaliate? What is the difference? If I stand there and let you flick my nose 1000 times and don't do anything to stop you no matter how bad it greives and aggravates me how does that make me better?

[Ben Trismegistus]

You have to choose your battles. It's not black and white.

[Tammy Sullivan]

there again that would be up to the individual to decide....so if one sees agressiveness in a good light -- like the viking war lords did and the jihad warriors do -- possibly they will reap big benefits for the same things we call wrong.....

not only pick your battles, but maybe even your blessings....
in view of that and the theory of relativity how can retribution be wrong?
If I allow you to go without punishment for slapping me, then aren't I just inviting it again?

[CloakofStars9]

i have been tempted to get back at people that have hurt me, let me tell you, but what keeps me from doing it is the fact that i believe everything you send out comes back to you

karma baby

its hard not too, believe me, but time heals all

[Rain Gnosis]

If I allow you to go without punishment for slapping me, then aren't I just inviting it again?

That's in absolutes. You can stop someone from slapping you without punishing them. For one thing, you can remove yourself from their presence. For another, you can bind them from slapping again. For another, you can ask them why they slapped you and possibly work the problem out.

[Tammy Sullivan]

so slapping them back could not be considered absolutely wrong either could it?

[Rain Gnosis]

Nothing is absolute.

[Athena-Nadine]

Some of us do actually believe in retribution. It is done in proactive and reactive defense of self and others. One of the main tenets of Hellenismos is kharis, or reciprocal favor. One good turn deserves another, but so do the bad turns. Kharis is not followed if it only goes one way. :)

Friends love, help and care for you. As such, you are required to love, help, and care for your friends (this includes the gods and your family).

Enemies are enemies because they will knowingly and deliberately harm you, your friends, or your family. It does not matter if you are not directly harmed. If an enemy harms you or someone who falls under your list of friends, you are expected to harm them in return. Doing so protects you and your friends, and keeps you all from further harm.

Strangers are just that. You don't know them, and they don't know you. Because of this, you can form no judgments as to whether they are friends or enemies. They are to be treated with cautious generosity. They should be given the benefit of the doubt, but they are not to be trusted blindly.

Unlike both the Christian ethical ideal ("Love your enemy") and the Wiccan Rede ("An it harm none, do what ye will"), traditional Hellenic ethics teaches that there is no shame in interpersonal conflict or just retribution; indeed, these are fundamental parts of life. (Nemesis is a goddess, after all, and the myths show the gods in conflict with each other.) Further, by not harming one's enemies, one harms one's friends, breaking down the fundamental bonds of society. It is no surprise to find, then, in one of the earliest pieces of Greek writing, a priest calling down Apollo's wrath on those who did not honor his request for reciprocity: the return of his captive daughter for a fair ransom (Homer, The Illiad).

http://www.ecauldron.com/greekethics.php

http://www.hellenion.org/

[Tammy Sullivan]

now THAT says balance to me...being strong enough to protect if you know you need to and warm enough to love at the same time....

[Athena-Nadine]

Though, to be fair, The Rede says nothing about just retribution or personal conflict being wrong (this is from what I've gathered from friends who are Wiccan; correct me if I'm wrong, as I am obviously not Wiccan myself :)). All it really says is if your actions will not harm anyone then you can do what you will. It doesn't say anything at all about harming anyone or anything, which means that you are to weigh the consequences before determining a course of action. I know plenty of Wiccans who believe in just retribution as part of balance. :)

[Kaylara]

Retribution is ok, depending on the reason you're doing it as far as I'm concerned. There are situations where it is perfectly acceptable to give someone back what they gave you...

[Rick]

The Law of the Pack says: Defend the Pack. Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate; know your role. Play when you can, hunt when you must, rest in between. Devour your enemies. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

These are the Laws by which I live. If it's family (kinsmen & close friends), I protect it. If it threatens family, or gives a strong appearance that it might, I devour it. If it's a stranger, I ignore it, unless or until it presents a threat.

[cydira]

Our ancestors lived by things such as the wergield and the dingal. This blood price and blood feud are conveiently forgotten by many of the people who are out there writing about paganism and upholding the ancestral gods.

Do what you will and harm none? That's a new concept. Probably one that was generated due to a crossfertilization of ideas from the Christian community that many of the modern pagans have grown up in and the liberation concepts of the pagan culture.


Do I persue vengance? No. Not even for the harm that has been greviously inflicted on my personally. I will defend myself. All have that right. Revenge is different from self defence.

[nomadicdragon]

Just for general discussion and to appease my own curiousity, if someone wrongs you, why is it so widely believed that you would be better to let it go?
Why can we not do tit-for-tat? We strive for balance....retribution makes sense in an odd sort of way....*pondering*

Personally I feel that if someone does harm to me.. the best think to do is to move on with your life.. the more you dwell on the harm the more they win.. because if you get revenge in the end they still win.. the closest to re venge i've ever gotten is casting a spell so any harm the person causes returns to them... and i feel that is more like offense then defense... don't know if that makes sense.

[She-Arna]

In my opinion, if someone hurts you, you have every right to protect yourself and to seek justice. That's not to say that you should strike out without reason but in the legal system, if someone hurts us, we take them to court and see them charged. We put our case before a jury and then a judge decides the most appropriate punishment.
My version of magical justice works in much the same way. I bring my case before the Gods and ask that they find the most suitable punishment for the person who hurt me, if they deem it necessary at all. Who better to judge the situation and whetehr or not it warrants revenge?
Ok, mostly I do that. There's been times when I've taken matters in my own hands. I think it's a natural human instinct to want revenge against someone who has wronged you but sometimes it isn't worth it.

[Tammy Sullivan]

Reading all of this it seems the main cause of concern is proportion....am I reading it right? You wouldn't kill someone for hitting you as it would be unbalanced so....would you kill if your child had been killed? Can killing prove NOT to kill? Where is the line drawn, how big does the offense have to be before you feel it is out of your hands and divine justice should step in? How small before you feel qualified to control your reality with an equal action? Does the law of return include humanity?

[nomadicdragon]

Reading all of this it seems the main cause of concern is proportion....am I reading it right? You wouldn't kill someone for hitting you as it would be unbalanced so....would you kill if your child had been killed? Can killing prove NOT to kill? Where is the line drawn, how big does the offense have to be before you feel it is out of your hands and divine justice should step in? How small before you feel qualified to control your reality with an equal action? Does the law of return include humanity?


It's such a slippery slope. i think that if you take the stand that in some cases retaliation is ok... the line shifts in the sand with each decision. I don 't think that we have a right to retaliation... beyond protecting ourselves and seeking divine justice. Because we are flawed beings, our emotions become involved and things tend to get out of ha nds when we try retaliation. . Many times things will go drastically wrong and things will be worse then they were in teh f irst place.

[Tammy Sullivan]

We speak of protection all the time, what constitutes protection?
Preventitive? Punitive? Why and why not?

[Calzaer]

Nothing is absolute.

Except that statement. :D

[Rain Gnosis]

Except that statement. :D

Nope, not even that, because some people *do* see things in absolutes. So to them, there are things that are absolute. So it's not even absolutely true that there are no absolutes.

Uh oh, I'm gonna get yelled at for going off topic again ;)

[nomadicdragon]

I think that protection all depends on the situation itself.. I'm a huge fan of situational ethics. There is on absolute in my opinion. Circumstances many times to judge what our actions should be .. sometimes you can use preventative protection, other times it is more like damage control...

[damselfly]

mmm, interesting thread.

i'm wondering if it's possible we're missing the point here.

the purpose of magic is to effect change. but it is important to first understand how magic works, otherwise there is the potential to make things worse.

it is a scientific (and metaphysical) axiom that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. therefore, the universe is doing a constant balancing act. this translates, in layman's terms, to this: if you perform an act of vengeance upon someone who was "wronged" you, you will be required to sacrifice something from your own life. this is a universal principle, which means that it is true whether you believe it or not, and whether you like it or not. whatever is given, has to be taken from somewhere else. and whatever is taken, has to be replenished from somewhere else.

magic works by tapping into this principle. because you are using metaphysical forces that are not normally available to the conscious human mind, the principle is multiplied, times three. hence the oft-touted "three-fold law of return." what you send out, you will get back, times three. if you wish to create abundance in your own life, you have to give. the more you give, the more you will receive. sounds cheesy but it's true, i've seen it in action.

what a lot of people don't get, is how to apply the principle properly to their magickal workings. magic works by attraction, and by intent. for example, say you have an enemy. if you perform vengeful magic against your enemy, you are tapping into the principle of fear, anger and hate. this is malicious magic. even if you feel your cause is just, the principle of darkness and destruction will attach to you and you will get back three times worse than you sent out. it is because, for whatever reason, you are attaching yourself to the dark principle, to the negative polarity, to death and destruction. what follows cannot be good, even if you feel you are justified in your actions. (of course, the dark principle is necessary in the universe, and in magic, to effect balance. but it has to be worked with in a correct manner. more about that in a moment.)

so let's examine your other option. say you have an enemy, but instead of attacking him, you perform magic to blanket him in love, to raise his positive awareness, and to allow him to naturally realize the error of his ways. you could add a caveat, such as "may true justice prevail, to harm none, and for the good of all." this gives the universe "permission" to act on your behalf for a beneficial result. you may appeal in your magic to one of the "dark" goddesses, such as the morrigan, or hecate, but instead of giving her harsh instructions, you should "surrender" your problem to her, and allow her to deal with it in a way that she sees fit. in this way, you give the dark principle permission to deal justly and to adjust balance in the cosmos. the results may surprise you.

you may find that you receive an apology from your enemy. you may find that in slow, subtle ways, he begins to change. but know this: the benefits that will flow to you, on a spiritual level certainly, but often on a physical level, will be astonishing.

what i'm trying to say is, your state of mind is the cause which affects your physical environment. if you are miserable, you will attract misery. your life is, quite literally, what you make it. does your life suck? you created your own reality. and you can uncreate it. but you have to take ownership of your life and realize that you have total control over the principles that govern the universe, and the only person who can effect that change is you.

sorry, that was a bit of a ramble. i hope i was clear enough.

[Rain Gnosis]

this is a universal principle, which means that it is true whether you believe it or not, and whether you like it or not.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but you realize not everyone believes that right? I, for one, don't. I don't need to take from others to gain, though my gain can affect others. Most people endeavour *to* get what they want without taking it from others, and most see magical return as working not in "you lose, I win", but "I gain, I change the world". It's just not that simple. For instance, if I do a healing spell, there's no reason to believe someone else gets sicker. And I *really* don't think it affects me whether I believe it or not - I have done enough magic to have seen that *not* happen.

because you are using metaphysical forces that are not normally available to the conscious human mind, the principle is multiplied, times three. hence the oft-touted "three-fold law of return."

Sorry, I don't follow. Why, since you're using metaphysical forces, is the principle multiplied by exactly 3? Why not 10? Or 1? Can you quantify the return of healing, or other similar magics so clearly? And if so, why? As you explain down the post further, you create your own reality, so why do you need return?

it is because, for whatever reason, you are attaching yourself to the dark principle, to the negative polarity, to death and destruction.

Well I agree there. That's essentially what I've been saying (if you want to be bitter and angry, life will give you every opportunity to be, if you want to be miserable, you will be miserable). If you vibrate at a destructive level you'll attract and manifest destructive energy in your life.

the results may surprise you.

*nods* I was thinking that as I read your explanation. Once I called on Sekhmet to help me work something out with another person - and Sekhmet definitely took it and ran away with it. I was surprised. But then, I had given it up to Her and therefore I can only act she did what she thought was right. Who am I to challenge Gods? And I've done the kind of harmony spell you suggested and had it work dramatically.

Thanks for posting, you've brought up some interesting things for discussion.

[Tammy Sullivan]

Damselfly, according to that...what would you do if you had someone standing before you thumping the tip of your nose and would not stop even if asked? Don't you think it comes down to mundane first, magic later? I know I'm not gonna wait for the universe to kick in when I can smack the hand away myself. Allowing someone to abuse you is NOT the right thing to do in my mind. Retribution is different of course, but there are occasions when it needs to be performed too.

[Dindrane]

so let's examine your other option. say you have an enemy, but instead of attacking him, you perform magic to blanket him in love, to raise his positive awareness, and to allow him to naturally realize the error of his ways.

I agree with this. Why harm another person back? Why not send them love instead of hate for them to bread their own negativity on. Instead of sending a negative message/energy that may end up fueling the fire, send love or harmonious energy so that maybe they find peace and get the message.

you may find that you receive an apology from your enemy. you may find that in slow, subtle ways, he begins to change.

Exactly!

what i'm trying to say is, your state of mind is the cause which affects your physical environment. if you are miserable, you will attract misery. your life is, quite literally, what you make it.

This is also something I live by, cause and effect. Always take your time and work things out, and try in the end to think positivley and surround yourself with things that help you think positivley and see what will happen. It's almost like if your life is chaotic... take a look around yourself. Maybe if you clean your 'room' or make sure your altar is tidy then you will notice a change starting. This has always worked for me. When I make my own environment tidy and I am happy about my environment it effects my outlook on things... it's like a domino effect.

I believe justice will always prevail. I believe in karma, but not 'three fold' karma. If someone needs to learn a lesson, karma will touch them. I also believe that sometimes things do need a little push, but you shouldn't do it to harm anyone else... why would you intentionally want to hurt someone/something that may already be reacting out of hurt?

Just my two cents worth hehe.
Blessings,
Dindrane

[damselfly]

zephrina, i am not advocating giving carte blanche to bullies. of course if someone is physically abusing you, you have a physical body, you have arms and hands and muscles. using physical force in self-defence is not allying oneself with the darkness!! this is common sense. i thought we were talking about magic here.

rain gnosis: "energy can neither be created nor destroyed" is a scientific fact. it is not open for belief or disbelief. ask any physicist.

you say "I don't need to take from others to gain, though my gain can affect others." maybe i wasn't clear. i'm not implying that in order to gain, you have to take from others. i was trying to explain that reacting in a negative way towards a perceived "enemy" will only serve to increase your own negative aura. i don't have all the answers! i'm just saying what i've seen. positivity attracts positivity. so instead of curling up in a little ball of bitterness and resentment, would it not be more beneficial to all concerned, to face the problem head-on with a positive, dynamic outlook, and a giving attitude rather than a "you've hurt me, therefore i'm going to lash out even worse at you" approach.

(no hard feelings towards those who've questioned me. i like being challenged. it makes me think.)

[Tammy Sullivan]

oh of course no hard feelings damselfly, the whole thread is a debate and devil's advocate kinda thing with the intention of making us think....

[Rain Gnosis]

rain gnosis: "energy can neither be created nor destroyed" is a scientific fact. it is not open for belief or disbelief. ask any physicist.

I believe magic does not work solely within the physical world, and that science does not wholly explain magic. I actually have a great interest in theoretical physics myself and am well aware of that law :) Physics is one of my passions, unfortunately I wasn't able to take post-secondary education therein though I am trying to study it personally as related to spirituality.

Really I think I misunderstood you on one of the details - I wasn't arguing with you about the law of physics, but something else. Frankly, through my Sudafed (sinus medicine) induced haze I don't even remember what I was talking about. :D

to face the problem head-on with a positive, dynamic outlook, and a giving attitude rather than a "you've hurt me, therefore i'm going to lash out even worse at you" approach.

I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with you. Sorry I misunderstood. Thanks for sharing, I think you're right on the money.

Incidentally, I just started a thread in our Theology & Philosophy forum called Philosophy of Magic wherein I'd like to discuss magical principles etc. If you get the chance to take a look that'd be great.

[Tammy Sullivan]

zephrina, i am not advocating giving carte blanche to bullies. of course if someone is physically abusing you, you have a physical body, you have arms and hands and muscles. using physical force in self-defence is not allying oneself with the darkness!! this is common sense. i thought we were talking about magic here.



And if they are attacking you with magic?

[Rain Gnosis]

And if they are attacking you with magic?

Wait a minute *looks around*

You were just using a different nick right?

[Tammy Sullivan]

I changed it yesterday...first time to change for me, I'm not quite used to it yet...

[damselfly]

hey...sure thing, glad we're on the same page...

actually i was just spending some time researching the "law of three" (because when questions come up, i like to dig and find the answers!) and it appears to be originally a hindu concept...which has been incorporated into modern wicca. (i am wiccan, which is why i subscribe to the wiccan rede and the law of threefold return) it appears to be an attempt to conceptualize the concept of karma in a way that the lay person can get their head around. so presumably it is a general principle, not tied exclusively to the number 3 per se, but as 3 seems to have been a sacred number, and is fairly easy to engrain into the mass psyche, this was chosen as a "pot noodle" version of a metaphysical concept.

(am i making sense?!!! aaaakkk!)

i'd love to join in a debate re: philosophy of magic! thanks.

zephrina: if you have reason to believe you are being attacked with magic, then of course you have every right to defend yourself. again, this is self-defence only. cast a personal circle of protection, do the lbrp daily, use a binding spell if absolutely necessary to prevent the person from doing harm to you, others or himself. send out positive healing vibrations to him and to his surroundings. psychic self-defence is pretty basic and easy to learn. :)

blessed be, all - that's it for me for today.

[Rain Gnosis]

Yep, that absolutely makes sense. I was actually just reading about that idea in regards to the 3fold law in Penczak's "The Inner Temple of Witchcraft". Others believe the 3 refers to things returning to us and affecting us physically, spiritually, and mentally (or physically, emotionally, mentally, etc.) because all the parts of ourselves are tied together and one can't affect one of those without affecting the others. I think the 3, as you aside, was kind of a "general guideline" rather then an absolute number chosen arbitrarily.

[Armitage]

ah so it depends on the DEGREE of the wrong? small offenses let go, but big ones, retaliate?

I think the size here depends more on things being realistic, and a pragmatic Sense of what people can and can't let go. Emotions are what make it hard to pass up retaliating in the first place. The bigger the Wrong, the harder it is to gracefully nod out of the urge to tear the offending party a new Mr. Breathy.

[Rain Gnosis]

a new Mr. Breathy? Should I ask?

[Armitage]

Mr. Breathy, i.e. Breathing hole. I forget who I adopted that off of... :halohead:

[Tammy Sullivan]

Isn't there a point where you just don't trust yourself to handle it correctly though? Like if it is TOO big?

[Rain Gnosis]

That's why I tend to err on the side of caution and giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. It's too easy to get paranoid or over-reactive and rather then helping yourself, attacking others - and having them attack you too!

[nomadicdragon]

That's why I tend to err on the side of caution and giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. It's too easy to get paranoid or over-reactive and rather then helping yourself, attacking others - and having them attack you too!

I agree.. sometimes you just have to take a step back..breathe... let your true insticts take over instead of going completely on our first emotional responses..if we think we tend to be able to connect to our inner instincts..

it's hard to give others the benefit of the doubt because of the way the world is.. but I think that just the fact that you attempt to do that makes the world a little better place...:) just my thoughts and slightly off topic

[zakzekezedd]

Revenge and getting even are self-serving endeavors, they don't do any good for anyone but you. And as with most self-serving endeavors they are rather sadly dissatisfying when all is said and done. Not to mention there is something rather disappointing in realizing that you are every bit as shallow and petty as the person you just "got even with". Working to ensure that someone is brought to justice for a real crime that they committed? If it serves the greater good, and not your personal need for vengence then do whatever you must. Ultimately it all comes down to what you are willing to accept accountability for doing.

[damselfly]

If it serves the greater good, and not your personal need for vengence then do whatever you must. Ultimately it all comes down to what you are willing to accept accountability for doing.

well said, zak. personally, i'm a great believer in "pay it forward". :)

[Tammy Sullivan]

Revenge and getting even are self-serving endeavors, they don't do any good for anyone but you. And as with most self-serving endeavors they are rather sadly dissatisfying when all is said and done.
Let's make allowances shall we? I meditate for ME, it is completely self serving as far as my reasons go and yet, is very satisfying...OR let's be fair when we speak of self serving...nothing is truly self serving only...you eat because if you don't and you die and alot more than just you will be affected (granted it's not the only reason but bear with me) every action has an equal reaction...

[Rain Gnosis]

More actions are more self serving then we like to admit. The problem is not necessarily in being self serving, but in harming others to serve oneself.

[zakzekezedd]

hmmmm...fair point Zephrina! What if we draw the distinction between self-preserving and self-serving then? There is a certain amount of healthy selfishness we need to "indulge" in and there is also very unhealthy selfishness we should try to avoid. Sort of like the difference in buying yourself a new blouse that you like, and stealing yourself a new blouse that you like. You might say that both are rather self-serving acts, it's just that one is a positive one, and the other is decidedly negative.

[Tammy Sullivan]

*nods*

[nomadicdragon]

I agree.