Now, before you get upset at my posting this

[VelvetBlade]

Now, before you get upset at my posting this...understand my reasons behind it. The last paragraph bugs the hell out of me. Does it say in the bible that jesus really said that? And why would someone wish to worship a god who wants to guilty you into doing things "his" way rather than what makes you a better person? I've never understood this, or other "Fire and Brimstone" antics..

~AW




Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.



We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen


If you aren't ashamed to do this, please pass this on.
Jesus said, " if you are ashamed of me," I will be ashamed
of you before my Father."

[MoonRaven]

The whole thing sounds like whining to me, and that last bit is one hell of an assumption.

[nomadicdragon]

the actual passage is in Matthew 10:33

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


Not quite being ashamed..

[Equinox]

Hi all-

Yes, that’s from the earliest gospel – it does use the word “ashamed” (Mark 8:38). Luke copied it into his gospel too. We have to resist the temptation to sugar-coat Jesus. He did say a lot of good things, but he said some bad things too. He was a doomsday prophet who thought that god would end the world soon, like in a few years or decades at most. See this section from Mt 10:32 to Mt 10:38 -

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

The message is clear throughout Jesus' teaching: This specific religion – and none other- is more important than family and more important than religious tolerance. (this is also a major theme of the old testament.)

Sugar coating Jesus blinds us to some of the harsher things he said – we need to see the good while not ignoring the bad. I’ve also posted about this here too: (link to evolution post) (http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=30627&page=4)

[Gareth]

Ah yes, when it comes to quoting the bible, some just twist it to thier own needs. :geez:

[zakzekezedd]

Well, I've always said that the Bible is a bit like statistics..you can twist it around to pretty much support anything you want..including contradicting sides of the same question.

[Equinox]

Hi-

Um, I don't understand how that verse from Mt I mentioned is being twisted. Am I missing a religiously tolerant verse somewhere else in the Bible?


On finer points, yes I agree that the Bible can be twisted, as any text can. However, it seems to me that it takes a lot more twisting to get to religious tolerance than to get to intolerance. In other words, the bible supports intolerance. But don’t take my word for it – open it up and read it yourself. I’ve read the whole thing – it condemns religious tolerance just about as much as it condemns anything else.

Compare it with homosexuality. There are fewer than 10 verses that mention homosexuality, and yet, we’ve seen the Christian view of that. In comparison, there are literally hundreds of verses, and indeed entire chapters, and entire books in the Bible that condemn religious tolerance – is it any surprise then that Wiccans are so often suppressed in America? Aside from the verses that demand witches be killed, there is even a section that prohibits Christians from letting a non-Christian into their home! (2John 1:10). I'm glad that at least some Christians are willing to disregard their own text and be more humane.

-Equinox

[teleri]

35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;


Whenever someone uses the phrase, "Christian family values," I always think of these verses.

Teleri

[Xander67]

Peter Denied Jesus 3 times... Jesus even told him that he would do so....

I think what He is talking about in the scripture is in relation to Religious Persecution... meaning Jailing, tourtureing etc for one's beliefs... and I think what he is trying to say is that we need to stand up for what we believe in... if we are ashamed of what we believe, then how can we turn to the God we worship in times of need and sorrow... be it Our Mother the Goddess, or whichever personification of GOD we choose in our hearts...

[Flar's Freyja]

The whole thing sounds like whining to me, and that last bit is one hell of an assumption.

I'm not sure where they're getting that "we can study about witchcraft, vampires...." and I don't see the method behind mentioning "totem poles." :huh:

In the Bible belt, you can bet there's no studying in school about witchcraft and vampires - and you can also bet that there will be studying about totem poles since a good part of the state is on Indian land! and Indian culture brings millions of dollars in tourism business to this state.

I once had a Baptist remark to me that Native Americans are the least spiritual people that he knew of. That is SO wrong.

[Pesha]

Considering that over the all the years the bible has been around and the mulitude of translations that MAN has made of it, mostly to suite someones purpose....I can imagin that somewhere in some copy of some translation it might actually say this. Ah when the fine hand of man is involved beware.

BB
DS.

[Pan]

I read this aloud to my brother as I was reading it for the first time myself. He and I think that anything can be twisted, like so many have said before me.

Really, the Bible is hard to interpret either way. Some will take it literally, some will take it figuratively.. and some will just disregard it altogether. One part of the Bible that I'll always remember is what animals I owe you if my ox gores you. Who needs that anymore? ;) And, yes, that is literal. 8O

As for the initial point of the post, that little poem-thing does sound a lot like whining. Also... the part about there being no mention of God... what about the Crusades? Joan of Arc? Don't these people learn about this stuff? There's plenty mention of God in history class. And I'm pretty sure most high schools have a history class. ;)

There's my little bit on that, as I try to get back into the swing of things. (no internet at my house, but I'm at my mom's again)

[Flaire-FireStar]

I'm not sure where they're getting that "we can study about witchcraft, vampires...." and I don't see the method behind mentioning "totem poles." :huh:

In the Bible belt, you can bet there's no studying in school about witchcraft and vampires - and you can also bet that there will be studying about totem poles since a good part of the state is on Indian land! and Indian culture brings millions of dollars in tourism business to this state.

I once had a Baptist remark to me that Native Americans are the least spiritual people that he knew of. That is SO wrong.


I think it was just to make it rhyme. :rolleyes:

I've studied totem poles many times- starting from elementary school!

However, witchcraft & vampires........... Maybe in university (I know a friend is taking a course on early horror movies. *nod* ) But that's choice. :dis:

[Traknavar]

Jesus said, " if you are ashamed of me," I will be ashamed
of you before my Father."

Just like every piece of writing about Jesus...a MAN wrote down something that another Man heard another MAN heard another MAN had heard Jesus say. I take everything with a very big grain of salt.

[Ceallach]

It does sound a bit like whining. People are gonna make it sound as good or as bad as they can as long as it suits their cause. Here they want to sound as downtrodden as they can, so they do. *shrugs* Does it really surprise anyone here? Probably not.

Bright Blessings

[Equinox]

Trak's right - everything we have from Jesus was passed along by word of mouth for decades before being written down (ever play telephone?). Plus, it was then handcopied for decades or centuries until we get to the copies we have (most from the 4th century on).

The translation isn’t really a big deal – it was translated once – from Greek to English in the 20th century. However, the two earlier steps are important – so we really don’t know what Jesus actually said at all – and this applies equally to good things and bad things. Yet another reason not to sugar-coat Jesus.

-Equinox

[Lwyd]

Ok, :rant: .....

Take a look at the creation of Adam and Eve. The bible, when it was translated to the modern languages by the church, was during a time when men dominated all of the political, religious, and business societies. How do we really know that it was not Adam who was created second or that he was not the one who took the first bite? Not to mention the fact that during that time, the church had begun its own political conquest and self corruption through greed for wealth and power. Its little wonder that the bible was written in such a way that it could be twisted in such ways that it could prove any point you want to make.

Now, I'm not saying that they are continuing to do this, rather they are perpetuating mistakes and flaws and white lies that they themselves are not yet aware of. Many people retain the prejudices of their ancestors and twist the words of the bible to suppoort, validate and justify themselves and their behavior.

I heard an interview on the Howard Stern show with a man that honestly believed that god hates all "faggots." The man stated that "faggot" was a biblically correct term for people in the homosexual community simply because a faggot is a bundle of sticks used in kindling and "fuel God's wrath" just like in Soddom and Gamorah where he rained down fire and brimstone on them because they were all "faggots fueling God's wrath." He even quoted scripture supporting his belief, stating that the scripture and Jesus' sacrifice does not apply to them.

I grew up as a christian and I am embarassed at my own ignorance during those years, because I honestly believed the same things. After reading the bible for myself and trying to answer my own questions, I realized how many contradictions there really are. The bible describes the christian masses accurately when they are referred to as a flock of sheep. They would willingly jump off a cliff if that is what the shepard wanted them to do, and some of them have actually done just that. (Think cyanide and Kool-aide.)

:hailmol:

After being taught that they are so much better than the rest of us, and their god is so much more powerful than ours, and all non-believers are going to hell, all their lives; it's little wonder that they believe it. If my eyes hadn't been opened, so would I. Add that to the fact that they are specifially told to go out into the world and teach the non-believers and the ignorant about Jesus Christ and salvation, and the fact that there is such a thing as religious freedom now, you end up with....... Pushy evangelists..... When the rest of us non-christians get tired of hearing them rant on and on about how loving and vengeful their god is and how we are all going to the firey pit of eternal damnation, we make a law that tells them to stop, they cry foul. None of the other religious groups force their religion on anyone else. This is about religious freedom, not oppression of all religions except christianity as they would like it to be.

:rant:

I think that taking prayer out of schools was a mistake. The behavior of children today could have seriously benefitted from some kind of religious teaching, even if it's about something I don't agree with. I just don't think that kids are taught the ethics and morals they need to be taught in an athiest based education.

[Lunacie]

How odd ~ I was just reading something on another site about this topic this morning. Some people believe that Jesus never demanded that everyone should follow him, just that the ones who do follow him and the God of Abraham should do it fully, not half-heartedly. If you don't accept Jesus as the only route to God in this lifetime and later find yourself (standing very suprised) at the throne of God, Jesus will be there to say that you denied him and so he denies you too. So there! Take that! Too late now dude!

http://2witchvia.faithweb.com/

And this one points out the seeming contradictions in the bible:
http://jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

[Lwyd]

How inspirational! I never read biographies because I think most are extremely boring. The lady that wrote To Witch Via the Truth: A Christian Witch's Story touched on a few sore subjects that have caused probelems in my life as well. I strongly reccomend reading this one... http://2witchvia.faithweb.com/

As for the oher one... um cute... true, to an extent, but mostly, just cute...

[cydira]

First, let me beat my head against a wall.

OK, I'm done bludgenoing myself for this... I try to avoid commenting on threads like this because they almost always degenrate into one of two things: 1 a bash-fest towards Christians or 2. a bash-fest towards people who disagree with the predominant view point.

However, I couldn't help but comment here.

Before people pass this off as whining and start ranting about how bad Christians are and how they're supposedly responcible for virtually every major conflict and form of opression, let's take a second and look at something here.

If the Christians are stripped of their rights to freedom of worship, as is slowly happening, then it won't be very long until we are as well. Sure, our two communities have conflicted in the past and we've got statistics and such to show it. There's alot of raw feelings and out and out hatred between our two communities.

But there's something that we've got to keep in mind. No matter how much damage they've done to our community in the past, they're also a spiritual group. In our given society, any form of public faith is condemned as an attempt to push it onto other people. Even if you're just publically expressing what you believe and not asking for any validation, you're just voicing your mind. Recently, there was a christian teacher not too far away from where I live that was fired for wearing her cross. It wasn't something huge and gawdy. It was a small one, simple design. She wasn't preaching. She was just wearing a cross. She got fired because she was violating the dress code that banned gang symbols and occult symbols. A dress code that the pagan families inthe area were trying to get overturned because the occult symbols weren't signs of being apart of a gang or some nefarious organization, they were religious symbols.

Now, I understand if this individual was fired for preaching when she should have been teaching her math class. That's not doing her job. But she was wearing a religious symbol. She even offered to wear it under her shirt, and still got fired. Now, if you want to say that being unable to officially discuss religious texts and theology in public school is a violation of church and state, that's fine. It's an entirely different ball game when a person is fired for any form of expression of their faith. Especially when it's something inobtrusive and unoffensive, like a small necklace hidden beneath their shirt. That is a violation of one's first amendment rights.

So is the way that many schools will tromp right down on students who are having a theological debate between themselves. When I was in high school, myself and several of my friends would discuss theology and the differences between witchcraft and christianity. We were almost put on suspension for it. When the principal threatened us, I looked at her and I said "Go a head, I'll have a lawyer by the end of the day." I would have too.

Aside from that, you know the poem raises some good points. There are some issues that need to be seriously discussed, like teen pregnancy. Or drug abuse. Or any number of problems that happen in these schools. And let's not forget the last thing noted, school violence. Yeah, they put thier foot in their mouth when they ranted about witchcraft, vampires, and totem poles. Not everyone is exactly educated about alternative life styles, guys. And there's alot of people out there that give us decent pagans a bad rap because of what they do, like the serial rapists who use it as a way to lure their victims or the violent youth offenders who use it as an excuse.

If we want to change this situation, we've got to do more then just rant. And we've got to do something other then sit around and blame the christians. 99% of them don't really care about what we believe and what we do, so long as we don't do anything that harms them. For all you know, that guy next door who maeby helped you jump start your battered, dying car is out there at church on Sunday praying that you get a better car, because he wants to see you doing well. Yes, there are intolerant christians out there. There's just as many intolerant pagans in the world. It's high time we owned up to that fact. There are pagans who will go and antagonize christians for the sake of causing strife because they feel owed something.

The Burning times are done and over. Let's go ahead and live our lives with out the chip on our shoulders. It's a heavy burden and we'd be better off making sure it didn't happen again by being active then just complaining and throwing rocks.

Flame me if you will, I don't care.

[Rain Gnosis]

Cydira, my god woman, if I could give you more karma points tonight this would be the second thread I'd be using to give them to you. THANK YOU for speaking up. I wrote a similar, shorter post earlier today, but didn't want to get flamed.

The sad fact is, if someone wrote a poem like this about Paganism, most people here probably wouldn't comment, or would even chuckle at it and agree. I've seen people post stuff like that here! It's wrong for Christians to write poetry about witches and vampires, but ok for us to focus on their faults? MW supports tolerance for all religions, not just the Pagan ones. Religious intolerance is religious intolerance and I am frankly sad to see the same people who insist on tolerance for their own beliefs going on and on about the problems with Christianity.

As to contradictions in the Bible, well, so? Look at the contradictions we celebrate - some of us our polytheists, some of us are monotheists, some of us think Gods are archetypes, some of us think Gods are in nature, some of us think Gods are individuals. Some of us are into Egypt, Greece, Rome, Sumeria, Scandinavia, and so on. Some of us believe in harming none, some of us believe in ma'at, some of us believe in revenge, some of us believe in Will. Some of us look to new age concepts, some of us look to ancient cultures. Our myths absolutely contradict, we often recognize them as symbolic rather then literal or absolute, and yet we see the truths that exist within them and enrich our lives. We recognize that one bad egg doesn't characterize us all - that a few so called Wiccans who hang out in cemetaries and sacrifice cats doesn't mean we all do. Why should it be any different for those of other religions?

Some kid wrote a poem, so what? If we're allowed to have our beliefs, so can someone who is Christian and beliefs Christianity should stay in schools. Tolerance doesn't just mean tolerant of people who show you tolerance, it means showing tolerance even to those who don't. We're so happy to talk about how open-minded and tolerant we are, then turn around and go on about what's wrong with Christians, when most of us have never even opened a Bible. Why not spend more time worrying about ourselves and evolving as individuals, rather then being bitter and negative about others?

</rant> Now the flaming can begin ;)

[Lwyd]

I have nothing against christians or their way of life. What I do have a problem with is the church as an organisation that teaches them that we are all baby sacrificing devil worshipers. Never blame the student who has had the wool pulled over their eyes; blame the teacher, I always say. But now, even the teachers have had the wool pulled over there eyes for so many generations that they actually believe what they teach is the gospel truth.

Erasing the prejudices they have aganst us is a task that will rival the task of eliminating racial and sexual prejudism. The military has already stepped off on the right foot, it's the senators, who want to take away my right to religious freedom as a member of our country's military, that I still have to worry about.

[Rain Gnosis]

So, suppose Christians talked about erasing the prejudices you have against them? Do you feel that they should be able to erase your beliefs about them? Do you believe they have a right to try? If not, why do you have a right to try to do the same?

If there's a problem with someone forcing their beliefs on you, by all means, speak up and stop them. Write letters to your government officials, speak up at school board meetings, and make sure you are not physically prevented from your beliefs. But to get all wound up on a message board about some kid's poem on the internet? What does that do to make a difference? Or does it just help to spread intolerance and animousity?

Sorry if I seem to be picking on people - I don't mean to come across as harsh as I probably do, and I'm not specifically getting mad at you Lwyd so please don't think I'm personally attacking you, but I think these things need to be said by someone, and I feel like someone's gotta say it. My apologies in advance if people are offended.

[Traknavar]

Erasing the prejudices they have aganst us is a task that will rival the task of eliminating racial and sexual prejudism.

In fact, I think racial and sexual predjudism will be far more easier to erase than religious intolerance. If any of them ever actually get erased at all. Although the sexual prejudice will prolly be harder than racial since it is tied so much in the major religions.


So, suppose Christians talked about erasing the prejudices you have against them? Do you feel that they should be able to erase your beliefs about them?

If christians did actually talk about erasing the prejudices pagan people have against them they would in fact be starting the process by simply talking about the matter. And IF they ever actually did erase the prejudice between our two belief systems they would first have to overhaul some of their believes. By changing the way they believe about us would be erasing the way we believe them to be. I can't speak for everyone else, but I would welcome them to erase the anomosity I have towards christians. Because if they did that then that would mean I would be open to publicly express my spirituality without fear of ridicule.

So really by us tring to erase their beliefs about us we are actually trying to erase our own beliefs about them. But it first has to happen on their side. (We are already about as tolerant a bunch of people as exists on this planet) I don't see how us being more tolerant of them is going to do anything but enable them to be more intolerant about us. But I do believe that the disagreements between our two beliefs should be kept to religious matters and all nicities should be used. Being rude toward christians isn't going to make things better, even if they are rude toward us. You can be intolerant in one area but tolerant and nice in another area with the same person. But as long as I live I will never be tolerant of someone who says, "If you are not like me you are in the wrong".

On a lighter note: writings this reminds me of a pink floyd song; Us us us us us....and them them them them them :)

[Ceallach]

The end of intolerance has to start somewhere so why not start within ourselves. I can admit that I am slightly intolerant of christians, but I am also willing to change. If my creed is love, than that is what I must strive to do.

Cydira, you made a lot of really good points that I think many people - including myself- needed to hear. Thanks.

Bright Blessings,

[Rain Gnosis]

And IF they ever actually did erase the prejudice between our two belief systems they would first have to overhaul some of their believes.

Because you intend to overhaul your beliefs to become tolerant of Christians right? Why *should* they change their beliefs? The whole point of that post was to say why should their beliefs change? They think your beliefs should change - do you agree with them? Do you appreciate them telling you to overhaul your beliefs? "You should become a Christian, and find the love of God", says the Christian "if you did, we wouldn't have inter-religious problems". Are you going to change your beliefs? Then why should others? Since when is it ok to tell others to change their beliefs? Why is it ok for you and not the other guy?


I would welcome them to erase the anomosity I have towards christians.

Other people can't erase your animousity. That's why it's your animousity. You can choose to keep it, or you can choose to get over it, but it's yours to deal with. No one is responsible for your emotions but you. When a Christian writes a poem you can choose not to get angry, or to get angry - I chose the latter, because it's my choice to make - not the choice of the guy who wrote a poem.

If you're going to go on and on about how "open minded" and "tolerant" we all are, how can you write in the same post about how Christians need to change? That's not anymore tolerant then the Christian that tells you to change. Can't you see that?

Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world". If you want tolerance in this world, create it. Don't complain about how you're not going to do it till Timmy does it first.

[Equinox]

Hi Rain, and all-

We may have a few different ideas about the world today, but we all value religious tolerance, especially here on MW. The posts by Cydira and Rain brought up a lot of points worth discussing.

I agree that being intolerant or bashing other is bad. I’m tolerant of those who are tolerant to others, but not of harmful ideologies, like the KKK (Rain, I’m not sure we disagree here.). To be silent about the intolerance from the Christian community (so we don’t offend anyone) is going too far in the PC direction (see this thread (http://www.paganforums.org/showthread.php?t=33447)). When the first post asked if Jesus said "ashamed", I confirmed that this is Biblical (our only source for info on Jesus other than a few lines in Josephus), and that it fits quite well with the rest of the Bible.


We're so happy to talk about how open-minded and tolerant we are, then turn around and go on about what's wrong with Christians, when most of us have never even opened a Bible. Why not spend more time worrying about ourselves and evolving as individuals, rather then being bitter and negative about others. (Rain)

I agree with Rain that we should focus on improving ourselves, and that those who haven’t picked up the Bible shouldn’t comment - but I have picked up the Bible. In addition to reading it, I’ve discussed many doctrinal points with people from many different denominations to find out exactly what Christians really believe. Between that, listening to Christian radio, and being immersed in Christianity (Catholic, Lutheran, and others) for years, I think I can contribute to discussions about what Christians believe. Many of the hurtful things done in the name of Christianity are direct results of what the Bible says, and what both Protestant and Catholics hold as doctrine. Celebrating the healthy spiritualities we see doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call a spade a spade when parts of one are harmful.


99% of them [Christians] don't really care about what we believe and what we do, so long as we don't do anything that harms them. Cydira

I think that more than 1% of Christians care what you believe. Based on statistics and a thought process I’d be happy to detail if anyone cares, I estimate it at between 40 and 60 % of Christians in the US. They care very much what you believe, partly because your being Pagan means that someone (such as their kid) could learn Paganism from you, and burn in hell for it. Years of conversations with Christians of various denominations roughly agrees with this percentage.


Some kid wrote a poem, so what? Rain

I think a child probably didn’t write this (at least without adult guidance). It contains a lot of ideas that adults are more concerned about than kids. It repeats the things the Christian right says all the time. A child could have written it, but I’d be surprised. Read it - what do you think?



Because you intend to overhaul your beliefs to become tolerant of Christians right? Why *should* they change their beliefs? Rain

Rain, if the belief systems were equally intolerant, I would agree. However, because they believe that any view other than thiers leads to Hell, they cannot go along with widespread polytheism. You and I may have very different views in some areas, but we are tolerant (indeed celebratory) of the other views because we don’t think either of us will lead others to hell. In addition to other scriptural points, that’s why I think that quakers, the UCC, buddhists, shinto, …. Can all be mutually tolerant, while Christianity, Islam, ….. cannot.


It is always difficult to balance being tolerant of diversity with speaking out against hatred. My wife did a whole UU Sunday morning service on what "appropriate intolerance" was - much of the service was a congregational discussion about what to be "tolerant" of - like should be tolerant of gay-bashing, of the taliban, etc. It was a good discussion, and it was interesting to hear what people thought whether or not to be tolerant of those who aren’t tolerant of others. But that’s a different discussion - for another day. I hope no one takes this as a flame - I’m happy for the ability to talk about the tough things we talk about without the animosity I’ve seen in other places.

Take care-

-Equinox

[Rain Gnosis]

Celebrating the healthy spiritualities we see doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call a spade a spade when parts of one are harmful.

I think we can agree there's a significant difference between calling a spade a spade and going on and on about what's wrong with spades based on a few spades you've come into contact with. There are people here who I have seen discuss spades without condemning them (particularly Danustouch), jah is actually in another thread now discussing how he sees Christianity without condemning Christians. And then there are people who can't see a difference between discussing a spade and condemning anyone who uses spades.


I think a child probably didn’t write this (at least without adult guidance).

Actually it was published in June of the year 2000 and written by a teenager in Arizona. You can find that information on the internet - I happened to know that because I recognized it as something I read a couple years ago. That's why I was kind of surprised no one mentioned it before. By "kid" I meant someone who was in school, and complaining because they felt religion *should* be in school - my point was that when *I* was in school I certainly felt I had the right to speak about what I thought was appropriate to do in school. Though it really doesn't matter what age the person who wrote it was, does it?


we are tolerant (indeed celebratory) of the other views because we don’t think either of us will lead others to hell.

Whether others are tolerant of me or not, I allow others to have their beliefs, don't insist they need to change them, and don't force my beliefs on others. To me that is true tolerance, and anything else is tolerance for these people and intolerance for those - you either are tolerant, or you're only tolerant in certain situations - and the latter in and of itself suggests you're not truly tolerant. Anyone who cuts the line somewhere is being intolerant of some people - whether it's at Jews or Pagans or gays or anything else. I absolutely tolerate the beliefs of the KKK, gay-bashers, people who think I'm going to Hell, etc. Everyone is entitled to think as they will. I live my life as a responsible unique individual, not as reaction to others who disagree with me.

Tolerance means letting people believe what they want and not forcing your beliefs on them - it doesn't mean you let someone harass you in a train station because you're gay, it means you accept that some people think being gay is wrong and move on. Harassment is illegal, no matter which way you cut it. But thinking differently is not - no one was forcing their beliefs on you by writing a poem 3 years ago, and no one forces you to renounce Paganism anymore. We have freedom of religion and thought, we're just too busy worrying about people who don't tell us so. There are always going to be people who don't agree with you - and IMHO it's a lot wiser to carry on a productive life regardless, rather then dredging up anger, bitterness, and nasty energy, because of people who don't really matter anyway.

[Traknavar]

If you will look closely to what I wrote I said "overhaul SOME of their beliefs". And no, I would not need to overhaul any of my beliefs because none of mine concern christianity. I could care less what they belief, although I have read a good portion of the bible. The *some* of their beliefs that need to be overhauled is the idea that you are a bad person if you are different than them. And that is exactly where my anomosity stems from. I have never been wronged by a christian so there is no one person that i need to forgive or anything like that. It's just that I see this idealogy that *if you are not with us you are bad* becoming childrens ideas. And it is those children that are going to shape the future. How many more children will grow up with this and become more president bush's? What about in the muslim world, how many more children will grow up with this idealogy and become more OBL's?

That is what i mean by overhauled. People need to realize that not everyone is going to agree with you and just because they disagree doesn't mean they are bad people. And as long as people continue to teach children that if you are different than us you are a bad person the world is never going to get better. That is WHY there needs to be change. Of course these are my opinions and if you don't agree I have no problem with that. But I won't consider you a bad person for thinking or being different than me.

[Rain Gnosis]

I could care less what they belief, although I have read a good portion of the bible.

Is that why you're posting to a thread discussing what Christians believe and what one Arizona teen wrote in a poem about his beliefs? I'm not trying to be rude, but I think it's safe to assume that if you're interested in this thread, and discussing Christian beliefs, and which Christian beliefs need to be changed, you care what they believe, no? But really, that's a very minute point.

As to overhauling SOME of their beliefs - I can read, that doesn't make any difference whatsoever to my point. Christian fundamentalists who think Pagans are devil worshippers think you should change SOME of your beliefs, and yet you insist that's not ok.


And as long as people continue to teach children that if you are different than us you are a bad person the world is never going to get better.

Oh I agree. So how are you teaching children differently by posting to this message board in response to someone's poem?

I guess my point is - there are ways to make a difference, and there are changes that can be made. But they aren't made by sitting here, in this thread, on a Pagan forum, condemning Christianity and judging what it's problems are. Tolerance is not taught by telling people how Christians need to change. I've seen about 10x as many intolerant Pagans complaining about the importance of tolerance and bashing Christians then I have ever seen Christians doing the same to Pagans. And that, to me, is frightening. Talking about what's wrong with Christians does not change the fact that some Christians talk about what's wrong with you - and it doesn't foster tolerance or the idea that people aren't right or wrong because they think differently.

[Traknavar]

Opinions are well...you know what their like. And while I respect yours I will choose to disagree. Most all of the intolerance in this world stems from two religions, one of which is not the name of this forum. If you choose to ignore that, that's fine but I will not. Many good points have been made here on both sides and I can understand both positions. I don't have all the answers no pretend to but I've already said my peace.

[Phoenix Blue]

Intolerance in the world stems from intolerant people. Institutions may indoctrinate intolerance; but by and large, religion itself does not.

I have known very tolerant Christians and Muslims, and I have met Pagans so intolerant they would put Pat Robertson to shame. And I find it rather offensive that you would paint all the good Christians, a few of whom frequent this forum, with the same brush stroke you would use for Pat Robertson and his ilk.

[Lwyd]

I don't think that some of you really understand. Christians have a system of beliefs that has become extremely rigid and brittle. The last thing I want to see is an entire belief system cease to exist because they were forced to change what they believe in. What they *do* need to do is remove all the lies and false impressions they preach about other religions. That means *we,* as the "other religions," must educate them and reveal the truth about what we really believe, and that we are not the hideous devil worshiping baby sacrifising cult that they think we are.

[Phoenix Blue]

I don't think that some of you really understand. Christians have a system of beliefs that has become extremely rigid and brittle.
Stereotyping all Christians by calling their religion "extremely rigid and brittle" isn't going to help. Besides, if all we can think to say as Pagans is, "We're not 'hideous, devil-worshipping, baby-sacrificing" cultists, maybe we need to spend another century or two figuring out what we are, instead of what we aren't.

[Rain Gnosis]

I don't think that some of you really understand. Christians have a system of beliefs that has become extremely rigid and brittle.

I can just see this argument, turned right around, on a fundie Christian board. I can see someone who is intolerant on that board going "I don't think those Pagans understand, they have a religion based on the illusions of Satan! What they need to do is remove all the lies and false impressions they preach about Christianity. That means we need to educate them and reveal the truth". How are your statements any different? How is your painting all Christians with the same brush and talking about how they need to change any different then Christians doing that to you?

Why do you think some hand out tracts, hold protests, speak out about their beliefs, even write poems about them? Them trying to share their beliefs with you is bad and destroys society, but your doing it is what's going to save them?

As PB said in much fewer words - intolerance is intolerance. If you want to fight intolerance, be tolerant, and speak out to those who aren't. Religion isn't required in most schools because some people took the initiative to speak up in a constructive way. Because someone who had just as much right to speak up as this teen who wrote a poem did so in a way that was constructive and clear. It's not constructive to post on a Pagan message board condemning people who aren't even here to defend themselves, having painted them with a broad brush of condemnation.

[Lwyd]

I might have gone to the extreme while trying to explain myself. I know that not all christians feel that way. The basic structure as taught by the church as an organization is very rigid and brittle. Rigid in the fact that everything is either black or white, heaven or hell, evil or holy, with no shades of gray in between. Brittle in the fact that you disprove one thing and the entire thing comes crumbling down. They start questioning their faith, and their god, and eventually leads to what the church would call eternal damnation. I think my description may be a little exagerated, but I still think its justified.

As for the stereotype for us, you do have to admit that a very large portion of the christian community hold that stereotype to be 110% fact. I know what I am, you should know what you are, and Im sure there are a lot of people who understand what both you and I are. It's the ones that don't know the truth, who have been taught these lies all their lives and still believe in them, that need to be taught the truth and learn for themselves that what they have been told to believe about our way of life all their lives was a mistake.

[Nymph]

Intolerance in the world stems from intolerant people. Institutions may indoctrinate intolerance; but by and large, religion itself does not.
Exactly! :floating:

[Lwyd]

My whole point is that *we* are the ones that need to initiate the change. We should be the ones that teach them that we do not do those things. They after all, are not going to come to us asking, "do you really sacrifice virgins and worship the devil?" Most of us are fairly knowledgable about their belifs and their way of life and we have chosen to let them belive whatever they want. I will not force them to change their beliefs. I would however force them to stop spreading the common stereotype they have given us, if I could (which I can't). Simply telling them what I *do* believe, and what I *do* to celebrate my beliefs and allowing them to make up their own minds about me and my beliefs is good enough for me. I harbor no ill will towards christians or their beliefs. I hold the blame to the oganization for spreading misconceptions about us, forcing them to believe what they say or go to hell (which is, as far as I know of christian religion, completely untrue).

My mother said she had become a member of a coven and was forced to secrecy, as I know some covens do. She knew the truth about what covens really do and what they believe. Since then, she has become one of those bible thumpers that even get on other christian's nerves. She has chosen to believe anything the church says without question. I respect that, even though she knows, deep down, what the truth really is.

Again, my problem is not with christians themselves. It's with what they are taught about other people's beliefs. It's a deep rooted problem that will not easily be weeded out.

[Equinox]

I agree that intolerant people can (and are!) found in every religion. However, because the condemnantion of other religions is a central and clear part of the Bible (it's even the first of the 10 commandments), it's not just their institutions, their attitudes or a few bad apples. It is a core part of their scripture, and their religion.

Trak raises an important point - to just wait until it directly effects me has been done before: "First they came for the Jews, and I was not a Jew, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for gays............". I do help educate children about tolerance where I can, but to stay silent until something harms me here, now allows it to hurt my children and grandchildren and so on. That approach is not fair to the next generations.

I agree that it's important to be nice to those many Christians who are just plain nice people. We must always put the respect for individuals first, and avoid negative energy and harm. But it's often hard to figure out how to best avoid harm, especially when we think about things in the long term. I hope I haven't offended anyone. No one has offended me. Have a fun day everyone! :)

-Equinox

[Equinox]

Oh yeah, Rain, Thanks for finding the information about this being written by a teenager. Regardless of how relevant it is (I agree that it isn't terribly relevant), it's good to have the facts straight.



-Equinox

[Traknavar]

And I find it rather offensive that you would paint all the good Christians, a few of whom frequent this forum, with the same brush stroke you would use for Pat Robertson and his ilk.

Excuse me? I didn't paint *all* I painted most..which is a fairly accurate statement from my limited experience. Last time I checked...the word "most" did not mean all.

edit: by most I don't mean like Pat Whateverhisnameis, I mean most what I said in an ealier post...I don't even know who the Pat guy is but i'm sure most people are not like him.

[Adam Of Avalon]

The author of that "poem" is a sore loser. Cry me a friggin' river.

[cydira]

All y'all are taking what I said a tad too far. I'm not saying that you're saying that all christians are good or bad.

What I'm saying is there's just as many intolerant pagans as there are intolerant christians.

I'm also saying that the christian community is in danger of having their freedom of expression stripped of them. Now, sure, some folks may look at it and say it's a good thing or that it's karma coming back to them.

That's their view, but if one person loses their right to speak openly about their faith, their right to practice their faith, or to assemble with others of their faith, then they have been deprived of their first amendment rights. In a very large way.

And what is to stop the same group that stripped those rights from one person from doing it to more people.

Yeah, a kid wrote something and it's made a lot of people angry. Yeah, alot of folks have an axe to grind with the christians that they know. The two may even coincide, I don't know.

But I know that we need to put that anger aside if any of us want to actually make some forward progress on having legal protection for our beliefs and practices. Because if christians, who are socially accepted, lose their rights, we're going to lose ours. You may not like christians, you may wish to call down every curse you can think of up on them. But if you sit there cursing them and doing nothing to keep the right to practice your religion safe, then you're going to be in the same boat as them, like it or lump it.

It amazes me that people are taking this simple fact and turning it into a debate as to who hates christians and if it's wrong to do so. Look, it doesn't matter if you hate them. In my opinion, I think that it's inconsiderate and hypocrtical because not all christians are morons and not all pagans are decent folk. They're people, you're going to find both ends of the spectrum and all shades inbetween in both groups. Let's accept that and move on, ok?

As I said before, this poem rases larger issues that we need to be concerned with. Stuff like the repression of free speech, violence amoung young adults and children, teen pregnancy... I could keep going. Now, you can disagree with the one line that talks about witchcraft as a bad thing. That's fine. Disagree, be offended even. But don't let that cloud your vision to the large message.

This poem is a plea for help, guys. It's an expression of the sad state of affairs that our world is in. When children have to worry about these things, when their concerns are passed off as whining, and people spend more time arguing about who's responcible for the problems then doing something about it, we've got a very large issue that desperately needs to be resolved.

How about we stop arguing over which group is responcible for the intolerance and just solve the problem?

[Adam Of Avalon]

Ugh. It's the same debate over and over again...

[Lwyd]

In a way, I think thay deserve to have some of those rights taken away. They have taken advantage of the system for far too long. They have, in the past, tried to force their way of life on everyone around them. On the other hand, I have to agree with what Cydira said. Our legal system will eventually lead them to the supreme court who will find it unconstitutional in any case. I can't expect their rights to be taken away but not mine too...

[Rain Gnosis]

When children have to worry about these things, when their concerns are passed off as whining, and people spend more time arguing about who's responcible for the problems then doing something about it, we've got a very large issue that desperately needs to be resolved.

Sad that no matter how often that thought is repeated it falls on deaf ears.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

. What they *do* need to do is remove all the lies and false impressions they preach about other religions. That means *we,* as the "other religions," must educate them and reveal the truth about what we really believe, and that we are not the hideous devil worshiping baby sacrifising cult that they think we are.
I have known many people from many religions who talk about other religions in a factual way. After asking, about 80% admit to hearing it from someone who heard it from...(ad nasauem). I have also learned that in most cases even if you present factual first hand information, you will not be believed. The best way to educate these kind of people is to live your faith, set an example of what you would want them to perceive your religion to be, then refuse to discuss it further with them.