what about the masculine aspects?

[windandflame]

One thing I've noticed in Wicca is the emphasis on the Feminine 'Goddess' aspects. I read alot in these forums about peoples' Goddesses, the importance of the moon, etc. What about the masculine aspects/energies? does anyone call on the Gods/sun? Which ones? Should there not be a balance in devotion to the masculine and feminine?
I do not consider myself a Wiccan, I am merely in the curiousity stage at the moment.....

[Cev'aq]

I'm not Wiccan, nor have I studied it much, but it does seem that it emphasizes the feminine. Whether a balance is restored as one studies deeper, I don't know.

Personally, I think that there is a natural balance between masculine and feminine in everything, and I try to keep it in my path.

[Cobalt Cobra]

There is, in the Wiccan tradition, supposed to be a balance between male and female, the horned god and the mother goddess, etc., but many people who come over to Wicca for the first time still have bad connotations with the word 'God', so they kind of put the God aside for awhile and focus on getting back in touch with the Goddess.
I think it's perfectly understandable... when I first got into Wicca I tried hard to balance the two, but the Goddess aspect was the newest and therefore the one I wanted to focus on the most for a time.

Now, when I do call on the Gods (who I look to as Guides to honor, not dieties to worship outright), it generally is more balanced and I learn from the God as well as the Goddess. Most of the time I look to Thoth (he has a nice sense of humor) and the Horned God. :D

[Theres]

i've noticed this in my Wicca 101 class, and i put it down to those 'recovering' Christians.

but i must admit, even though was never a Christian i did have a block when it came to the word 'God'. actually, i had quite a problem with the word 'religion' too, having been agnostic for so long. but the Goddess came natural to me, probably because there was nothing to unlearn, and i think this is a situation many people find themselves in.

but i believe Wicca is supposed to be about balance, and those who honor one aspect of deity while ignoring the other are doing themselves a disservice (imo).
this is not unlike those who focus only on the bright and cheery side of existance, while burying their heads in the sand regarding anything 'negative'.

personally, i honor both all the time, but which particular aspect(s) i work into ritual depends on what i'm working on, the season, etc.
Hekate is always with me, but others come and go with the ebb and flow of my life. and this seems only natural to me.

[Mnemosyne]

Like you, WindandFlame, I'm not Wiccan. I think that the idea of a male and female divinty balance is a nice one. However, I don't follow it. I just don't feel particularly close to a male deity, so the idea doesn't work for me. I do see the balance need though. For example, a goddess of light may balance off a goddess of the dark and so forth.

[She-Arna]

Wiccans forgetting about the God has long been a pet peeve of mine. Balance betwen the genders is fundamentla in Wicca. It's different in other Pagan paths but in Wicca, the God and Goddess are supposed to be given equal reverence.

[Riven]

Think of it as two buckets: the "God" bucket and the "Goddess" bucket. Water has been dripping into the "God bucket" for three days. You can't just dump the same amount of water into each bucket and have them be equal (balanced). You have to dump more into the Goddess bucket in order to balance it with the God bucket, because the God bucket had a head start.

(You'll find that I have a strange tendency to reduce everything in life to some stupid little analogy or metaphor.)

[windandflame]

Think of it as two buckets: the "God" bucket and the "Goddess" bucket. Water has been dripping into the "God bucket" for three days. You can't just dump the same amount of water into each bucket and have them be equal (balanced). You have to dump more into the Goddess bucket in order to balance it with the God bucket, because the God bucket had a head start.

Are you saying that the big Wiccan emphasis on the Goddess is to balance the mainstream religions' big emphasis on a masculine God? If so, I respectfully disagree, because it seems to me that would take balance out of one's own way of life.

this is not unlike those who focus only on the bright and cheery side of existance, while burying their heads in the sand regarding anything 'negative'.

True, this is another thing I noticed. Call me a cynic, but I believe that pain, conflict and death are part of life. I looked at a dog lying on the side of the road this morning and said "that's unfortunate, but that's just the balance of nature". I don't blame cars or the building of roads or even people.
This is one of the main reasons I haven't jumped into Wicca, I do like the emphasis on nature and I have always believed in the supernatural. But at the same time I do believe that it's alright to take from nature as long as you put something back. I could never become a vegetarian, why should I be when creatures in nature aren't? Things die, sometimes simply because they cannot adapt, that is the unforgiving truth. Should I feel bad? No.
Anyway that rant was probably best suited for another topic in this forum. Please feel free to disagree I really appreciate your thoughts...

[indigo rain]

in reply to the bucket analogy, may i offer my opinion? you say that throughout recent history, god has been given almost exclusive attention. but this is the christian god, which they believe to be the all. he's totally different from the wiccan god. the wiccan god is not believe to be the all, but half of the all, the other half being the goddess. so saying we should worship the goddess because the god's gotten all the attention already is ludicrous. the god hasn't gotten any attention at all, he's not the christian god. he's just as new as the goddess, they came about at the same time. we worship what we believe to be the all, just like the christians do. we just divide it into two halves, both of which are necessary to the all and complimentary to each other.

[Riven]

No, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. That's not what I was saying. The analogy referred to this idea previously set forth: "many people who come over to Wicca for the first time still have bad connotations with the word 'God', so they kind of put the God aside for awhile and focus on getting back in touch with the Goddess." People like me who used to be Christians, all we knew was a male God. That is what I was referring to as the "water dripping into the God bucket": the focus that we as individuals put on a male God for years.

And, that's not necessarily my opinion. I was just expanding on the other person's idea.

[zakzekezedd]

I agree, that it would be very easy to infer that many Wiccans place more emphasis on the Goddess than the God. I know that many of the books that beginners might have ready access to might give the impression that Wicca is all about Goddess worship, but most of the books that I have read do stress the importance, the necessity of balancing the masculine and the feminine. I know that the whole idea of emphasizing the Goddess as a reaction to the years of being force fed the idea of an all powerful God in the more conventional patriarchial religious dogmas is a proverbial favorite. I just don't know if that really holds water (in otherwords, I think the bucket may leak..). I honor both the Goddess and the God. Although there may be times when I will take a certain concern to one or the other, I don't favor one to the exclusion of the other. But I really am at a loss of how one might "remedy" this perception on a grander scale.

[Riven]

I just don't know if that really holds water (in otherwords, I think the bucket may leak..).

LOL, very clever...

[indigo rain]

LOL, very clever... very clever indeed :) i agree

[Ben Trismegistus]

No, I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. That's not what I was saying. The analogy referred to this idea previously set forth: "many people who come over to Wicca for the first time still have bad connotations with the word 'God', so they kind of put the God aside for awhile and focus on getting back in touch with the Goddess." People like me who used to be Christians, all we knew was a male God. That is what I was referring to as the "water dripping into the God bucket": the focus that we as individuals put on a male God for years.
I believe that any Wiccan who focuses on the feminine aspects of deity to such an extent that he/she neglects the masculine aspects is doing a disservice to themselves and their spiritual path.

As others have said, the Christian God is different from any of the gods that Wiccans revere. So instead of thinking of a "God Bucket", which not think of a "Yahweh Bucket", because that's what it is. Just because you spent your childhood focusing all your attention on Yahweh doesn't mean that Hermes or Osiris or Pan or Dagda should be neglected.

In fact, a little communion with a less authoritarian male god (say Hermes, for instance) might go a long way to heal your feelings towards male deific energy.

(Disclaimer: These comments are not meant as a personal attack or criticism of Riven, but are meant in a general context for everyone who reads them, including the originator of the thread.)

[Riven]

(Disclaimer: These comments are not meant as a personal attack or criticism of Riven, but are meant in a general context for everyone who reads them, including the originator of the thread.)

LOL, cool beans.

[Mithrea]

I believe that any Wiccan who focuses on the feminine aspects of deity to such an extent that he/she neglects the masculine aspects is doing a disservice to themselves and their spiritual path.

As others have said, the Christian God is different from any of the gods that Wiccans revere. So instead of thinking of a "God Bucket", which not think of a "Yahweh Bucket", because that's what it is. Just because you spent your childhood focusing all your attention on Yahweh doesn't mean that Hermes or Osiris or Pan or Dagda should be neglected.

In fact, a little communion with a less authoritarian male god (say Hermes, for instance) might go a long way to heal your feelings towards male deific energy.

(Disclaimer: These comments are not meant as a personal attack or criticism of Riven, but are meant in a general context for everyone who reads them, including the originator of the thread.)


Well, well, I guess I got to this conversation pretty late. ;) Many of you have said that you believe that Wiccans who worship only a female deity are unbalanced. To me, I cannot comprehend a Goddess who is not balanced without a male counterpart. How can she be divine if she is incomplete? Balance does not have to be created through male and female. In fact, it is my firm belief that sex has nothing to do with balance. Sex is a biological function that most people have a gross misunderstanding of and and Gender is a social construct. So first of, when speaking of divinity, imeo it is improper to use masculine and feminine.

The way we practice and the things we believe reveal more about ourselves and who we are than anything about the Divine. The Divine can be experienced and the Divine can be known to some extent but it is doubtful that any of us can fully know the mind or understand the purpose and makeup of what is divine. That's why we all see it different ways. I personally can NOT and have never been able to view the Divine as male and that's probably because I am not one. I find most of the things I associate with men and with the word "male" are not things I want to honor and worship. So I don't. For me, through creation and destruction, through living and dying, through growth and decay, the Goddess brings balance all on her own. These are my opinions. I'm not accusing you all of worshipping an inadequate goddess because she needs a male counterpart--not in the same way you have basically accused every Dianic of being unbalanced. Just because you cannot understand it doesn't mean you have the right to judge it or point at it and say "unbalanced!" (since I know you are all going to go, "but, but, but, I wasn't judging!". I don't understand the necessity of a male deity to balance out what I think is already perfectly in balance. But I don't go into threads and pretend that I know more about your faith than you do. So, please don't make assumptions about mine.

Just because someone does not include male deities into their practice does not also mean they've had negative experiences with male deities. And if they don't feel a connection with a male deity, then communing with one rarely helps. My feelings toward male deities don't need healing.

I notice that it's usually males who can't comprehend only worshipping a female deity and yet there are millions of women who think it's perfectly okay for for men to worship only a male deity. That's what I call not balanced :-P

[Theres]

gender is a social construct?
i'm sorry, but i can't think of anything more primal.

but i agree with you that there is MUCH more to balance than just gender equality. however, this IS a factor. if divinity represents the whole, then denying 50% of that whole seems counterproductive to me, but that's just me.

not worshipping both aspects is a personal choice, and i have no problem with this choice.
but denying either aspect does seem rather unbalanced, and tends to border on the political (again, imo).

[Ben Trismegistus]

Balance does not have to be created through male and female. In fact, it is my firm belief that sex has nothing to do with balance. Sex is a biological function that most people have a gross misunderstanding of and and Gender is a social construct. So first of, when speaking of divinity, imeo it is improper to use masculine and feminine.
Well, I'm certainly not talking in terms of sex as in the physical act, or even gender in the human definition. I'm talking about the anima and the animus, the male and female (for lack of better terms) aspect of the soul, which all people possess. It is these aspects, in my opinion, which make a particular god or goddess male or female, rather then the presence or absence of a divine penis.

I'm not accusing you all of worshipping an inadequate goddess because she needs a male counterpart--not in the same way you have basically accused every Dianic of being unbalanced. Just because you cannot understand it doesn't mean you have the right to judge it or point at it and say "unbalanced!" (since I know you are all going to go, "but, but, but, I wasn't judging!".
Well, I never said that a goddess *needed* a male counterpart. I said that not recognizing both male and female deities is to miss part of the picture.

And don't be so quick to assume that I would become defensive and say I wasn't judging. Of course I was judging - that much should be obvious. But as I have said in other threads: Just because I have different opinions, and judge those who do things differently, doesn't mean that you have to do things my way, or even take any of my opinions seriously. Just because you're a Dianic doesn't mean you're wrong - it just means that I disagree with you. So what? You disagree with me too.

Just because someone does not include male deities into their practice does not also mean they've had negative experiences with male deities. And if they don't feel a connection with a male deity, then communing with one rarely helps. My feelings toward male deities don't need healing.
If you say so. But I have to take note of a comment like "I find most of the things I associate with men and with the word "male" are not things I want to honor and worship." Obviously, I don't know you, and therefore have no right to psychoanalyze you, but as a general statement I'd say that your problems are with men rather than with male deities. I'm sorry if my gender has caused you to associate "male" with qualities you don't want to honor.

I notice that it's usually males who can't comprehend only worshipping a female deity and yet there are millions of women who think it's perfectly okay for for men to worship only a male deity. That's what I call not balanced :-P
I absolutely agree. That's one of the reasons why I left Judeo-Christianity in the first place -- I felt that simply worshipping a male god was denying the great female energy in the universe. But I fail to see how going from ONLY worshipping a male god to ONLY worshipping a female goddess is an improvement.

[Mnemosyne]

Ok, I'm not the best writer, so I have problems getting my point across. Fortunatley, there are members on this site who share very similar beliefs with me. Mithrea is one. I agree with Mith 99.9% here. I'm not a Dianic, so that's not the reason why I focus primarily on female deities. Mith did not state in her post either that she is a Dianic. Thus, don't always jump to conclusions.

To this day, I just haven't formed a close connection with a male deity. Maybe I will one day. Who knows? I don't go out of my way to find a close bond with a male deity, since I am content with my spiritual path the way that it is at the moment. I've never thought that my spiritual path was unbalanced in the least bit. Each individual is unique, so I think that if someone is satisfied without honoring a male deity than it is fine.

[windandflame]

Ok the direction of this discussion has me confused, I read from Cunningham's books that the Divine is the energy that permiates the Earth and everything in it, right? And the God/Goddess are merely humanlike representations of it. So it seems the issue of the Divine's gender is moot, because it has no gender. The Divine encompasses everything, male AND female. essentially (and this is reason for bringing this topic up), is that, IMHO, to worship only aspect is to worship only half a deity.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ok the direction of this discussion has me confused, I read from Cunningham's books that the Divine is the energy that permiates the Earth and everything in it, right? And the God/Goddess are merely humanlike representations of it. So it seems the issue of the Divine's gender is moot, because it has no gender. The Divine encompasses everything, male AND female. essentially (and this is reason for bringing this topic up), is that, IMHO, to worship only aspect is to worship only half a deity.
Yes, that's how I feel as well. As a panentheist (i.e. all gods & goddesses are aspects of one universal deity), I believe that honoring all the gods and goddesses honors the entire deity. I certainly don't invoke every deity that ever existed, and I don't give equal time to everyone, but I try to honor both the God and Goddess in their many names and faces, because I feel that's the best representation of the entire universe.

If Mithrea and Mnemosyne feel that they get what they need from worshipping only a Goddess, more power to them. If Christians around the world feel that they get what they need from worshipping only a God and his Son, more power to them. I'm not interested in telling other people how or who to worship. I'm just talking about what works for me.

Most of the eight women in my coven came to our tradition from women-only, Goddess-centric circles. All of these women have said that they felt like something was missing from their spiritual life until they joined our coven, and they've realized that what was missing was male energy. If the Goddess worshippers on this forum (sorry for my misuse of the term "Dianics") don't feel that they're missing anything, that's great. I'm not trying to evangelize - I was just answering windandflame's original question.

[Seabhac]

This particular thread caught my eye and stirred up some interesting old feelings about the whole masculine/feminine dichotomy. First off the bat, I should be honest and throw this link into the mix:

http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2000/e_god05.html

Back in 2000, I wrote this essay and submitted it to The Witches' Voice website. Having reread it, I'm definitely aware of a number of changes in my feelings about the whole thing. For one, I'm no longer so certain that Wicca is quite as Goddess-centric as I believed it to be back then. I believe that came from exposure to a Dianic circle through my now wife. The High Priestess was relatively accepting of me as a male, "sensitive guy" pagan, but I only ever participated during Equinox rituals. Let me tell you, it's no fun being on the outside with no chance of ever being a part of the magic aside from twice a year. And I'm no longer so angry about the perceived lack of balance. To me, everyone follows the path that best makes sense to them, with all of the changes and challenges that happen along that path. And it's not up to me to bring my POV into their lives.

But I've *always* believed in giving reverence to the masculine and the feminine divine. For me, because our species happens to have two genders (birth related for the most part), that seems most appropriate. This isn't an issue of "male and female must go together". In a world where someone can choose to love and be tender and intimate with a someone of the same gender, that polarity is akin to telling that person they have to find someone of the other gender to be with because that's the way things work. And that's not even counting the transgendered, the transsexuals or anyone else who feels that they don't fit in any of the nicely pre-approved categories.

Rambling? Bear with me, I think I have a point in here somewhere. :D

The Goddess - or any goddess, depending on your perception - is a complete entity unto herself. The same goes for the God (non-monotheistic version, thank you). But my belief is that they do not require each other for balance. I'll admit I prefer to deal with them both, but usually it ends up being more of the "first this goddess talks to me, then this other god has something to say" kind of thing. And while I have difficulty understanding it when a person chooses to not deal with deities of a particular gender (on both sides of the equation), I look at it as their right to connect with the divine in a manner that fits them best.

As for the masculine aspects of the divine, they *are* out there. Otherwise I wouldn't have such a strong connection with Lugh, I wouldn't be turning to the Dagda in this new phase in my life (I'm going to be a father! :D), and I certainly wouldn't be drawn to Thoth and his lunar self. The resources to find them *can* be found in a pagan bookstore or online; I would definitely recommed "The Witches' God" by Stewart and Janet Farrar.

If there is truly a balance to be had in the reverence for goddess and god, such a thing can only be had by allowing everyone to revere whomever they choose, in the manner of their choosing, and not to force a particular way upon them.

May your cauldron be ever full,
May your hearth be ever warm,
May your home be ever joyous,
May those beings that you revere travel ever at your side,
And may your heart be ever open.

Blessed be,
Seabhac

[windandflame]

Let me say that I'm not trying to force 'a particular way' upon anyone. Please understand, I am merely watching on the sidelines, asking questions about the game. I see things I like in Wicca/Paganism, but I'm not ready to play. So if I ask hard, blunt questions, it's because I want the hard, blunt truth.

As I have stated before, I raised the question of balance in worship because I read in books written by Cunningham and Buckland (who I think everyone will agree are major sources for knowledge in Wicca) that there is supposed to be a balance, a reverence for all aspects of nature. But I see, as Seabhac eluded to in his Witchvox article, alot of gender politics in the religion. Why? Is everyone in Wicca so angry at the misfortunes in their own life that they can't bear to have a male figure in their religion, even though it's not the same as the Judeo-Christian-Muslim one? From what I've read from Seabhac's article, it seems that some traditions can't hardly tolerate a male to be present in their rituals (which is a new one to me).

In my humble opinion, the issue of gender is a shallow one, much like the issue of race. There are @$$holes in all walks of life, black and white, male and female.

The thing I find that makes the argument about gender politics completely pointless and silly is the belief in reincarnation. After studying the scientific research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson and others I'm pretty much convinced that it does exist. And yes, those people who rant against the members of the opposite sex (male and female) have been that sex sometime in a former life. So discriminating against a gender-or race for that matter-is discriminating against yourself in a roundabout way.

I don't believe in forcing someone else to accept my views on the universe or the meaning of life (or anything else). Yet, I think we should have an open and honest discussion even if thin-skinned people say we're 'intolerant' or 'forcing our views upon them', which we aren't .

SIDE NOTE- about 30% of Americans and Europians now believe in reincarnation, and the numbers are growing. The 'Big Three' religions may have some hard questions to answer now that there is growing scientific proof coming to light. Hmm, maybe the answer to racism and discrimination isn't in the political arena, but in the scientific one. :)

[Theres]

...there is growing scientific proof coming to light.

this is off topic i know, but 'proof'? how can it scientifically be anything more than theory?

[Mnemosyne]

Oh, Greenman, I'm with you on this one. This topic is all about theory, not proof. WindandFlame mentioned Dr. Ian Stevenson in the previous post, so I decided to check out this site devoted to him.
http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson_articles.htm
I kind of see the connection between science and reincarnation.

Yeah, I believe in reincarnation, WindandFlame. What does reincarnation have to do with honoring a deity or so in this life?

[cydira]

Ok, I've read through the whole thread, unless some one's posting as I am right now. :p It's happened before! So if I'm not responding to that additional post, please forgive me. :)

Ok, first off, there was a comment that was something that took me by surprise and I have to have given it thought. So I'm responding to it first.

Some one mentioned that gender is a social construct at which point some one else responded in objection, stating that it's not a social construct but a physical reality. I've got to differ with this latter person. What you're thinking of is sex, and even the assumption that all of humanity (and sexually differentiated creatures) come in male and female is incorrect. There's actually three sexes. Male, female, and hermaphrodite. We've varying forms of hermaphrodites in the world. Some are born with the apparent external organs of male or female, having the internal organs of the other. Some are born with the external organs of both. Hermaphrodites are for the most part sterile, I belive it's because of the genetics of the condition tend to preclude any form of fecundancy. But I'm a bit ignorant on the issue. Gender, or the social identity as male or female, is clearly a socialized trait.

If it wasn't then you'd be forced to question why there is such a powerful set of roles for the masculine and feminine in our society. The idea that certian traits and behaviors are exhibited by the masculine and the feminine is rather constricting for individuals who find that they have traits of both genders and can lead to crisises in identiy, at the least. Now some folks have the courage to challenge this constriction, but they find themselves at odds with a large percentage of society and viewed as though something is wrong. Hence members of the transvesite, homosexual, and trans-gendered communities find themselves at the center of a massive malestorm for bucking the social conventions. The rigid social roles are firmly impressed upon us in childhood, with the real pressure starting at about 5 or 6. If you notice, that's when children begin to have problems with being indentified with the other sex. This pressure continues to a point where you have the almost horrific social conditioning of highschool and other forms of interaction that young adults are subjected to. That's when the largest percentage of sexual identity crisis related suicides are conducted, by the way according to the information available from the American Psychiatric Association.

Now, in the light of this massive social pressure detailing rather rigid social roles for the masculine and feminine, at the exclusion of the hermaphrodite, we're looking ath the worship of masculine and feminine deities within Wicca. There is an overwhelming apperance that for the most part, Wicca is matrifocal to the near complete exclusion of the masculine. It could be described as a cultural backlash against the larger religions of a Judeo-Christian vein who are patrifocal to the near complete exclusion of the feminine. In many respect, this resulted from the great cultural revolution known as Women's Rights.

If you look at the history of Wicca, you'll find that in early Wicca (before the 1960s) you'll find that the sexual orientation is hetero-sexual with a strong patrifocal organization. You'll also find that the description of the role of women is somewhat nominal and that the role of the goddess in the early Wiccan belief structure was some what numinous and ill-defined. With the rise of the Women's Right's movement, you've a cultural revolution within Wicca. Those who were present and practicing in accordance with the pre-Women's Rights era will have a strong standpoint towards the apparent balance of the genders. They're also going to be generally more conservitive. Their approach, however, is valid in the terms of the variant of Wicca that they are practicing.

Then, you have the group who were involved with Wicca during the Women's Rights era and who were indoctrinated into this religion at the time. Their approach will place a greater emphasis on the feminine and generally will stand in opposition of what could be viewed as a social excess of patrifocal emphasis. Now, while the older focus of Wicca is on balance, there was an ill defined description of the role of the goddess. With the influx of the matrifocal Women's Rights influenced individuals, you find that the role of the goddess is much more clearly defined and described. In some situations, to the exclusion of the god.

We're now at a point in the development of Wicca as a larger faith and cultural sub-group that you're seeing alot of differentiation within the religion. There is no standard version of Wicca. The different traditions each claim authority over the others, creating an air of confusion. You also find that emphasis on one version of Wicca versus another changes with your geographical location. If you compare the development of Wicca to the early development of Christianity, you'll find that there is alot in common. The era of Christianity that existed before the Council of Nicea virtually mirrors the current state of affairs for Wicca.

Now, does this spell for Wicca the postential rise to dominance on the social scene? I don't know. Many things have changed in the world since the Roman era. State patronage of religion has waned dramatically as time passed, for example. If you want there to be unification within the Wiccan community, there will be a need for an orthodoxy to be developed. Until then, there will be endless debates as to what is truly Wicca and what isn't. Even with the rise of orthodoxy, you will find that there will still be a great deal of diversity within the Wiccan community and it will be only by the social and cultural punishment of said diversity that the proposed orthodoxy will be established.

That said, I've one more thing to add. Wicca is on the verge of another cultural revolution. We've already have what appears to be a rising orthodoxy. This is the matrifocal variant with a slightly lesser focus on the masculine. I predict that within the next five to ten years, we'll see the establishment of said orthodoxy and the cultural acceptance of it. I also predict that the variant forms of Wicca that stand outside of this orthodoxy will either splinter off and become their own named faiths (ie: Roman Catholicism vs Greek Orthodox vs the Culdees) or be placed under considerable social pressure to conform to the orthodoxy in an atleast outward form.

All of this, my friends, comes from my study of history and an examination of where the status of Wicca stands. We're seeing that the half hearted attempts at persecution (compare the persecution of today to the Burning times and we're all getting off easy) by the culture at large is beginning to give way to acceptance. If Wicca does rise to some form of prominance, we should remember the lessons of history and be understanding to Christianity. In many respects, they are just like us. Even if neither they or us wish to admit it.

[Theres]

Some one mentioned that gender is a social construct at which point some one else responded in objection, stating that it's not a social construct but a physical reality. I've got to differ with this latter person. What you're thinking of is sex, and even the assumption that all of humanity (and sexually differentiated creatures) come in male and female is incorrect. There's actually three sexes. Male, female, and hermaphrodite.

nice essay, but i have to take exception to this.

i believe that the 'latter person' you referred to was me, when i disagreed that gender is a social construct, being in fact a primal reality. to clarify, i was NOT confusing gender with sex... far from it. i don't see where sex or sexual orientation or preference makes any difference within the context of this discussion... to each their own.
but there is a very real difference between male and female (or any combination of the two)... physically, emotionally, internally, externally, any way you want to see it. if you don't think so, you're not looking hard enough!
this is not meant to suggest that one is more dominant, or better, or more important, or prefered. just that there is a difference, that is all. and this difference is a fact of the natural world.

so, within MY definition of Wicca, honoring the unadulterated (i.e non-political) realities of nature is vital. and honoring the difference between masculine and feminine is a part of that.
if someone chooses not to see it this way, that's fine, and more power to them. i don't care.
i just believe that the worship of something so universal shouldn't be affected by things like politics, social revolutions, or sexual bias. these are human problems, and too mundane to worry about in the greater scheme of things.

[windandflame]

Yeah, I believe in reincarnation, WindandFlame. What does reincarnation have to do with honoring a deity or so in this life?

I was trying address the comments made by some that they devote exclusively to a Goddess because of certain socio-political feelings. With the belief in reincarnation in Wicca that just seemed silly to me.

It just seems that there are some in Wicca (and I'm not saying all) that are letting a political agenda shape a religion, much like the early Christian church did, only to the opposite gender.

Cultural change is sometimes like a swinging pendulum, it goes all the way in one direction, then all the way in another, then (hopefully) swings slowly towards the center.

[cydira]

Greenman, I apologize if I had offended you. I misinterpreted what you were saying earlier.

I see that we're addressing the same concepts with different terminology. Thank you for clarifying your statements.

[Theres]

Greenman, I apologize if I had offended you. I misinterpreted what you were saying earlier.

no problem dear, i took no offense. just trying to clear up an obvious misunderstanding. :)

[Equinox]

Like many others on this thread, I agree that the masculine side is important too. I was thinking about the names for the three phases, and came up with this.

OK, we are all familiar with the three stages of the Goddess (maiden, mother, crone), and there has been some discussion here at MW about the male counterpart to these (?, father, sage). I think it is good to have both, after all, both males and females go through these stages.

For the first male stage, I’ve often heard "boy” (which sounds too young, but I guess better than “garcon”!), “youth” (which doesn’t restrict it to males), and others. Recently, when giving a short talk about Wicca and Paganism, a professor suggested “lad”, which I think fits much better than other things I have heard :graduate: . It doesn’t have the sexual experience implications “maiden” has, but it seems to fit.

Speaking of “maiden”, because it seems to imply a virgin, I wonder if “lass” is more descriptive. What about the married woman who isn’t a mother yet? She’s not a maiden, but she isn’t a mother either. How do we save her from the dreaded label limbo :hairraise ?? Now that we have widespread contraception, “mother” has become separated from sex a bit.

What do you think?

-Equinox

[mothwench]

this has probably been mentioned loads of times, but to me the green man is just as important as the triple goddess. i see him in deities such as cernunnus, pan... speaking of pan, there's a book i cannot stop recommending- i already have once on this forum: read *jitterbug perfume* by tom robbins. it's got pan as one of the main characters- i love this book. it's funny, spiritual, enlightening- it's great.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Equinox,

How about "Dude"?

[Equinox]

Yeah, that sounds cool!!

[mothwench]

uh, sorry. not trying to be the spoilsport here. but... *the maiden and the dude?*
*giggle*- how about knave?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, "knave" has a connotation of being crafty or sly. Like the Knave of Hearts stealing tarts 'n' stuff.

[mothwench]

Well, "knave" has a connotation of being crafty or sly. Like the Knave of Hearts stealing tarts 'n' stuff.
:lol: so? as long as it's just tarts he's stealing... i think it's all the more fitting. :)
(edited to add: what about fellow? or chap? or bloke? geeza? no i'm being silly now. :hehehehe:)

[mothwench]

hey, my last post was out of order. i'm disrespecting your thread. sorry. i think it's great your thinking this over, and don't let my dumb remarks descourage you.
what i actually meant to say was, maybe you should stay more neutral. *dude* is a word alot of people might not relate to? ok, that's rich coming from me, me with the maiden identity crisis. :rolleyes:
when thinking of this figure, i visualize personalities of the likes of tom sawyer, bart simpson, my twelve-year-old cousin, -uh, what's spiderman's alter ego? all the way to robin hood or even bart simpson's nerdy friend milhouse, and *dude* just doesn't cover all of these... know what i mean?

[Theres]

i've never seen the need for three masculine aspects, especially if the only reason is to counter the feminine three. and every time i've seen this debate, tthat third aspect has always seemed 'forced' and unnatural.

the way i see it, the three aspects of the Goddess represent the three phases of the Moon... Full, Partial, and New.
the Male God is generally represented by the Light and Dark halves of the year, Dead and Reborn, or the Oak and Holly Kings (as Graves would have it). therfore two aspects represent Him every bit as completely as Her three.
still perfectly balanced, even if not mathematically equal.

and wench, 'Jitterbug Perfume' is a GREAT book, and should be required reading for every Pagan!
i would also suggest the book 'Wind in the Willows' by Kenneth Grahame, particularly the chapter called 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn'. the best description of Pan i have ever read.

[SylverStar]

I agree two aspects seems more natural for the God.

I wanted to add to the orginal discussions, since well I'm just now reading this thread. :) I think that balance is definatly needed in life in general. However as far as balance goes in female/male aspects of diety I don't think it necessary. I see in myself as a person both aspects of gender. Being a female who was raised by a male with no mother figure in my life I tend to have a males view on life. However being hormonally different and associated with females I tend to understand them a little better. I also don't see too much difference between males and females besides hormones. We are all human and I really think that we are the same. With this stated I don't see why a single God/Goddess without any counterpart cannot be balanced. I myself tend to seperate this balance into two parts Artemis/Apollo but I don't see really any big deal about it not being seperate.

[Theres]

I myself tend to seperate this balance into two parts Artemis/Apollo but I don't see really any big deal about it not being seperate.

that is fine for the pantheist, but what about those of us who do not agree that all Gods are just various aspects of the one?

[Mojocrowe]

Myself, and from my own perspective....

I think that respecting and honoring the All, when it's termed as the (All) GoddESS or the (All) God,can only bring respect and honor to the ALL (both God and Godess). That both are 2 sides of the same coin, or the water poured from one vessel into 2 cups made from the same material as the vessel it (not they, really, but they (Goddess and God))was poured from.

I think that the focus on the Goddess by so many in neo-paganism, Wicca and other Earth based spiritualities, may be that so many identifying with their, perhaps own rebirth into that spirituality with the all-encompassing physical birth from your oown Mother's womb. It's a very natural way of thinking about new beginnings and rebirth, which I believe is partly what our Earth based spiritualities have been doing for the last 4 decades or so....

I try in my own humble way to give my own sense of self and worth, my sadness and my joys to honor and respect both sides of the diety or One or All, or Universal Spirit, or God and Goddess, however you might name them.

Do I sound that I agree with you all? Hmmm.... I do. Maybe there really isn't just one answer?

:)

Mojocrowe

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it." Goethe

[Ben Trismegistus]

I also don't see too much difference between males and females besides hormones. We are all human and I really think that we are the same. With this stated I don't see why a single God/Goddess without any counterpart cannot be balanced. I myself tend to seperate this balance into two parts Artemis/Apollo but I don't see really any big deal about it not being seperate.
Well, this is what I think (obviously your beliefs may differ):

The way I view the Gods and Goddesses, they aren't so much representations of people (who, as you say, are not THAT different, and both contain male and female qualities) as they are representations of particular aspects of divinity. Therefore, all of the goddesses represent the various feminine aspects of deity, and all the gods represent the various masculine aspects of deity. And therefore, I believe that one cannot have balance between their own masculine and feminine aspects unless they recognize both gods and goddesses.

Again, that's just me.

[Theres]

and me too Ben.

[Nymph]

I'm kinda odd here.

See, I recognize the balance in everything...light/dark, male/female, happy/sad...so on. But I don't view the Gods as God/dess. I am a polythiest, I believe all the Gods are separate and individual.

I mostly honor a specific Goddess. I believe in other Gods, male and female. But I've never felt out of balance honoring my certain Goddess. My belief makes up for it?

Honestly I had a point...I just don't know where it went...

By the way, I am not a Wiccan...so maybe that's it. Never mind me!

[Athena-Nadine]

*...shrugs...* I'm a polytheist, and not a "soft" one. My gods are separate. They are not facets, They are not archetypes. They are Themselves.

I'm not Wiccan either, so I don't really know why I'm even answering this, but here's my opinion, for what it's worth.

I think that if a person belongs to a religion in which one of the core beliefs (as I was taught of Wicca) is that there is a god and a goddess and They balance each other out, thus the universe is balanced (or reflecting the balance in everything--whichever you prefer), you are only dealing with one side of your spiritual path by choosing to ignore the god. In doing so, you are ignoring the very concept of balance your religion is based on.

*...shrugs...* But that's just the way I see it.

Like I said, I am a non-Wiccan polytheist. For anyone who doesn't know, I am a Hellenic Reconstructionist. I have many gods and goddesses. They are complete, in and of Themselves. They don't need a counterpart (some may have Them, but not all do). While balance is integral to my religion and way of life, that's all it is. We do not use male/female relations to reflect it. Dark/light, good/bad, we use reciprocation. But then, the Rede, Karma and the Law of Return mean nothing to me, personally.

[SylverStar]

Well, this is what I think (obviously your beliefs may differ):

The way I view the Gods and Goddesses, they aren't so much representations of people (who, as you say, are not THAT different, and both contain male and female qualities) as they are representations of particular aspects of divinity. Therefore, all of the goddesses represent the various feminine aspects of deity, and all the gods represent the various masculine aspects of deity. And therefore, I believe that one cannot have balance between their own masculine and feminine aspects unless they recognize both gods and goddesses.

Again, that's just me.

I don't really think of them as representations of humans either I was just making a comparasion. But is the masc/fem traits really that cut and dry. I mean is there no one God or Goddess that does not have a balance in these traits? Like Greenman said I'm not Wiccan and I'm coming at this from a different view.

[docdoo]

Hello all,
My own personal path is filled with both mother and father. I too came from a Christian background (Roman Catholic) and though I always liked the idea of a Father, I deeply missed the balance of Mother. Thus, in my own path, I ask for guidance from both Mother and Father. Masculinity is just as important to me as is feminity, I am by gender a female but am drawn to the power that is masculinity.

Thus in my prayers and rituals both are equally important to me.

As for where it should fit in Wicca, well there is supposed to be balance but far be it from me to choose any other persons path. Forcing a masculine father onto any who does not want them is no better than stuffing a Mother down someones throat.

Til next time,

[possum]

Hey as a solitary practitioner of wiccan I can not tell you how important God is in my life. I say a blessing to him each morning to help me get through the day and at night I say a blessing to the Goddess to watch over and help me into the night. I had a lot of blessing that I know came from God himself and I always put the two as equals. The Goddes is just sometimes seen as more important because this is what makes the women in wiccan so special because here we are not just someone sitting in the church but like the christians priest we are doing. That is why she (the Goddess) is so important. But if you talk to anyone who has been active in wiccan for a while they will tell you how without the God there is no Goddess they are the perfect soul mates. Bless you for asking and not just assuming. People like you help this world become a better place.
Blessed be

[moonmorgan]

When I first came to Wicca, I focused on the feminine but now that I understand it more, I'm balanced between the two. However I AM female so I tend to lean that way just a little. If I were male, I'm sure I'd lean the other way.

Now, to me, the word God means God and Goddess, because I believe they are both one and the same.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I don't really think of them as representations of humans either I was just making a comparasion. But is the masc/fem traits really that cut and dry. I mean is there no one God or Goddess that does not have a balance in these traits? Like Greenman said I'm not Wiccan and I'm coming at this from a different view.
Sure there's one that balances those traits, but it's Hermaphrodite, so I'm not sure it counts. ;)

Like I said, this is only my personal theology. It doesn't apply to everyone. I don't necessarily believe that it's that cut and dry, but I do believe that each god and goddess is a personification of the energy of their sex, representing a particular aspect. For example, if I were going into war (unlikely), I would invoke both Ares and Athena - both deities with warlike aspects, but approached in very different ways.

[SylverStar]

Makes sense. I would actually like to here more views from the opposing view. I'm actually in agreement with you guys about having balance. I think one of the reasons I was not drawn to Wicca was because of it's lack of masculinty and it's emphasis on the Goddess. Of course there are other reasons but when I was younger that was one of first impressions. I think alot of it does tend to come from the femminist movements and gender equality. We as a society have been very patriarchial and denied alot of the feminist qualities in society. Maybe putting such heavy emphasis on the Goddess aspect makes us feel more balanced.

[Elfa Wylde]

I think often the Male aspect of Wicca (and other pagan religions) gets swept to the side because of the stigma of the God of the christians.
I was christian growing up and i know, that when i first stepped onto this path i wanted NOTHING to do with another Man-god. I didn't want to be governed by any aspect of a male... this is not because of that particular god per se.. but because of how the "churches" twist things around a LOT to controll.

However.... i've wised up. Once a month I do a ritual to my God Lugh. and on the full moon to my Goddess Danu.


One NEEDS balance... when you were a kid... didn't you go to your Dad for somethings and your Mom for others? same thing here! We (or at least I do) need both!

[Raindancer]

I've been slogging through these posts for a couple hours which with both reading glasses AND a 5X magnifying glass isn't as easy as it sounds :-) But its late now and my brain has had enough so if I'm going to respond, it had better be now.There are so many thoughts swirling around,,, The buckets... just because one bucket has been filled for a long time doesn't justify ignoring it now. To put it another way, if white people enslaved black people for 300 years, is justice acheived by having black enslave white for another 300? Black or white or male and female, the real injustice is oppression in whatever form it takes.Besides, if you study history you will know that more than one bucket was getting something.Massive amounts of devotion were given to the Virgin Mary.

Gender roles as a social construct? Maybe to some extent, especially in modern times when survival is not necessarily dependent of being strong or fst but able to handle new challenges and complexities, but they are also based on certain physical relities. Men and women are different. Our bodies and brains are different, we think differently, we feel differently and we have certain innate abilities and characteristics that are gender related. These gender roles were not just dreamed up one day and imposed on people, they were based on something. Perhaps the things they were based on were relevant to stone age society, but they did have a basis. In part, at least they came out of reality and necessity.

This is not to say that there aren't men with female brains or females with male brains, hermaphrodites, people with extra chromosomes, but that would describe most people.

What/who we worships says more about us than the deities, they are what they are regardless of what we think and My guess would be they derive a certain amount of entertainment from us. The statement of the idea of a goddess who was perfect unto herself got me to thinking. First, I don't believe that any goddess or gad for that matter "needs"an opposie gendered deity to balance them, they are just there and you take them and connect with them as you will THEY don't need anything. Any relationship they have with each other is their business and choice. But I thought of how a person might relate to either a god or goddess of the same gender as themselves. Balance is not just on a physical level but emotional psychological and so on. A woman who has many personality traits often thought of as masculine, might find balance not in a male figure but in a female one. Particularly one with similar characteristics. Maybe in the sense that we connect with that which is like us in some way, we orship ourselves. Each of us connects with that which balances us and this can take mny forms and there is danger in condemning any form of that as long as no harm to others is done. One person is convinced that all men are scum and prefers an all female worship, St. Paul, who is widely credited with creating Christianity, was a misogynist and thought all women were scum and said that men should avoid them. But this had limited appeal and so he added that if you HAD to be with a woman, it were better to marry thn to burn, fornication being a sin. Even so, Christianity had limited appeal as it was competing with another major universalist religion in the Roman Empire that had great devotion and folloing, the worship of Isis, which had spread beyond the borders of Egypt into the Meditteranean and even into Italy and Rome. Few people know that Paul came from a city which was a large center of the Isaic faith and had an extensive knowledge of it. Pretty soon, there was a great increase in the importance and prominence of Mary and the atrributes of Isis were credited to her. So in a sense, human nature led to a modifying of Christianity because as people here have said about patrifocal Christianity they grew up with, there was something missing. So it is with Wicca as its developing away from mainly goddess oriented worship to one that has more blnce of masculine and feminine. There will still be Dianic Wicca as well there should be, but others who want to follow the Wicca path will find other ways to connect to deity as it suits them.All these ways will be right because they will help each person to find personal blance however that may work for them. Our real strength is in our diversity and the worst thing that could happen to us would be another Council of Nicea and an Official Party Line TM I read somewhere that about 30% of the people in Wicca are men. Just as women are discovering their strength in connecting with their feminine power, gradually, I think that they are discovering that which the godforce, lover of the earth not conqueror, has to offer. Likewise, men are discovering the liberation from rigid negative energies by connecting to the goddessforce within that is creative, nurturing and that they can be lovers of the earth not conquerors over it. We all have both elements of masculine ithin us, no matter who we are or what we believe, and getting that into balance and all working together is what its really all about, each of us in our own way... its all good.
Raindancer

[Raindancer]

Just a ( maybe) quick PS... I think that the Christianity that many people are talking about when they talk about a mostly male oriented religion are talking about Protestant Christianity. Catholicism began with the severe anti-female bias of St. Paul which still mars it as well as Christianity in general, but maybe because they had to compete and compromise with and steal elements of various pagan religions, especially the Isaic religion, Catholicism developed an overlay that included female elements such as the Virgin Mary, hom many regard as another face of the Mother Goddess. You know, when you think of the whole pantheon of God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, Mary, all the Saints nd Angels that people pray to and with prayer, try to work magick through,Catholicism and Paganism probably have more in common than either might feel comfortable about . By the way, if anyone wants to kno more about the spread of the worship of Isis beyond Egypt and the collision with early Christianity in the years before Christianity became the State Religion of the Roman Empire and could use the power of the state to crush opposition, read "Isis in the ancient world"by R.E. Witt.
Raindancer