The Staffs of the Two John - what IS this?

[Ben Trismegistus]

I wasn't sure where to post this -- I didn't want it to get buried in "Just Talk", and it didn't seem to fit anywhere else. I figured that by posting it here, at least all the Ceremonial Magicians would see it -- it seems to have some sort of CM relevance.

Here's the story: My wife had a rather prophetic-seeming dream last night. (She has been working heavily with dreaming as a divination tool, and has always had a special gift for prophetic dreams.) Without going into two much detail, the dream was about a "Witch War" between two covens. A lot of reference was made to Igraine and Yggdrasil, and the central figure was an old man with a beard who called himself "Good John". Doing a websearch on all three terms resulted in the following site:

http://www.lanunda.com/12_The_Staffs_of_the_Two_John.HTM

It references all sorts of esoteric traditions, including Ceremonial Magic, Kabbalah, Tarot, Astrology, and what appears to be Golden Dawn symbolism. Additionally, it includes the phrase "Good John is Still Alive", which seemed like an eerie discovery after her dream.

It's possible that it's nothing - a cursory search gives the impression that it might just be the ravings of a lunatic (it appears that the author has gotten herself banned from an RJ Stewart mailing list for haranguing Stewart about his commentaries of the Prophecies of Merlin), but there might be some sort of significance in it, and I figured it was worth asking about.

Does this site make any sense to anyone? I figure that "Two John" may be a reference to the two Saints John of Freemasonry (John the Baptist & John the Evangelist), but that's as much as I've figured out.

The main site is http://www.lanunda.com - you can read more of "Grail Initiation and the Prophecies of Merlin" (of which "The Staffs of the Two John" is just one chapter). Please let me know if you can make any sense of this whatsoever. Thanks in advance.

[Ben Trismegistus]

*bump*

No clue?

[Tammy Sullivan]

I read your thread Ben. Not ignoring, just no clue....one question, what does your wife think about it or is it a vague image thing?

She probably knows more than she realizes right now, maybe tonight will show her more?? I hope so I'm anxious to see what it is myself. :D

[Lwyd]

As you may or may not know, (I do from the Discovery channel) there is a magnetic north, and a true north. Additionally, The moon is constantly moving away from the earth at like an inch per year (or something like that). The prophecies of Merlin mention something along the lines of the axis of the earth needing to be reset at some point in time.

Scientists have proven that the earth's rotation on it's axis becomes more erratic the further away the moon gets. The prophecies mention that if the earth's axis adjusts far enough away from its original position, the constellation of gemini and pisces will no longer look the same.

Perhaps, the staff is metaphorical and is referring to the two axis of the earth, true north to True south and magnetic north to magnetic south.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I read your thread Ben. Not ignoring, just no clue....one question, what does your wife think about it or is it a vague image thing?

She probably knows more than she realizes right now, maybe tonight will show her more?? I hope so I'm anxious to see what it is myself. :D
Well, she's got a pretty good idea of what the dream meant in general -- she's been exploring Celtic mythology lately, and a lot of that imagery came up, especially the references to Igraine and Yggdrasil.

As I said, we just turned up that site on a websearch, and even though neither of us can make heads or tails of it, it seems *meaningful* in some sort of way. It's as if I recognize the alphabet, even if the language is different. But that site may have nothing to do with anything - could just be some raving lunatic - but I thought it was worth checking out.

The part of the dream that interests me in particular was this character of "Good John". In the dream, he turned to ME (yeah, I was in the dream next to my wife) and said, "You can use my name. It will give you power." So I've been looking into the name Good John to see if I can get any meaning out of it, and I haven't found much. So the phrase "Good John is Still Alive" on this site kinda freaked me out.

[Tammy Sullivan]

AND it's sticking with you so it's pretty clear -- or at least I think -- that you are supposed to notice this and be affected by it too

[Ben Gruagach]

Since there is the strong connection to Yggdrasil, "Good John" (especially as the mysterious bearded stranger) strikes me as being Odin.

Have you explored Odin, especially in his aspect as the mysterious wanderer?

[cydira]

Quick question, what did the bearded gentleman in the dream look like?

A bit of a description would probably cinch if it's the All-Father or not. :)

Aside from that, it does sound like something to do with Cerimonal Magic, but at the same time...

If I were you, I'd look into the traditional images and folklore of the British Isles, expanding beyond the Celtic people.

You'll find that there's alot of interplay between the Celts, the Teutonic peoples (Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, etc.) and the Christians. From what you've described, you're probably going to find your key to solving this mystery in one of a few different places. First, you may find it in some of the Grail folklore. Second, you could possibly find something of a lead on the meaning of this by getting into the various studies on folklore and such that were done by J.G. Frazer and other's of his period. Just keep in mind that a large percentage of their work was deliberately altered to sound better or more mysterious. It was just the way that the writing went during that period.

Aside from that, your best bet will probably be to look into what you can find about the mystery societies from roughly the 18th century. That was when you saw alot of cross references and such between the three groups in the writings on the occult and spirituality. But again, take it with a grain of salt.

Now, that witch war you mentioned, that's intersting that you mentioned that. In france during the 17th or 18th century, there was rumored to be a war between two different covens of witches or magicans. I think you may beable to find some helpful information in that arena, but I"m not sure. Unfortunately, I can't recall who exactly was involved in taht little altercation because it's been quite a while I looked at that particular bit of my research. It'd take me a week at least to find it again, and even then I"m not sure how much I wrote down about that.

I hope this helps some. :)

[cydira]

One last thing that I forgot to note.

The figure of Ygrainne was a later development in the Arthurian myth cycle. It came from Normandy along with the figure of Launcelot. So, again, there is another french connection here.

She's indirectly connected to the figure of Nimue and Isult. Nimue being from the Arthurian cycle and Isult being from the Irish legand of Tristan and Isult. Which was also adapted by the Normans to the version that we commonly find today.

Just wanted to add that incase it would help some.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Since there is the strong connection to Yggdrasil, "Good John" (especially as the mysterious bearded stranger) strikes me as being Odin.

Have you explored Odin, especially in his aspect as the mysterious wanderer?
That's an interesting thought. I'll look into it.

Quick question, what did the bearded gentleman in the dream look like?
Couldn't tell you -- it was my wife's dream, not me. She just said tall, old, and bearded.

The figure of Ygrainne was a later development in the Arthurian myth cycle. It came from Normandy along with the figure of Launcelot. So, again, there is another french connection here.
Interesting - I'll mention that too.

[Ben Gruagach]

Now, that witch war you mentioned, that's intersting that you mentioned that. In france during the 17th or 18th century, there was rumored to be a war between two different covens of witches or magicans. I think you may beable to find some helpful information in that arena, but I"m not sure. Unfortunately, I can't recall who exactly was involved in taht little altercation because it's been quite a while I looked at that particular bit of my research. It'd take me a week at least to find it again, and even then I"m not sure how much I wrote down about that.

Is this from the book "The Night Battles: Witchcraft and Agrarian Cults in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries" by Carlo Ginzburg? I haven't read it, but I understand it's about "good witches" in northern Italy who claimed to be constantly battling a group of "evil witches."

Ronald Hutton also talks about the "cunning men" and "wise women" in England pre-Gardner who claimed to do magic to combat those pesky "evil witches" who were always believed to be lurking about. It's in "The Triumph of the Moon."

[cydira]

Actually, the bit about good witches vs. bad witches in iItaly that Murray makes reference to in her books I tend to believe. It amakes more sense then some of the other things that have been bandied about perpertaining to that time period.

To be hoenst, I can't remember exactly what the source was. I think it was an encyclopedia called Man Myth and Magic, but at the same time it could have been a Time Life enecylopedia of the occult. I don't remember for certian. It's been many, many years since I looked at that. Easily about 10 years. I'm surprised that I even remembered it. LOL

There's actually a strog body of evidence that witchcraft existed well before it was called that and in a form rather different from what Gardner popularized. I'm inclined to believe that Murray's argument tha there was a fertility cult in the British Isles is correct, but not for the whole of western eurpose. I'm also not agreeing with the idea that everything was a matter of codewords or something else like that.

I believe that those who were witches during the Burning Times were probably the same folks who held dances in the church yard on the high holidays and left offerings at wells. It's possible for the old religion to adapt to the environment it was in, which I think happened with the introduction of Christianity into the british isles region. This adapted conglomeration of the earlier pagan beliefs is what became later known as witchcraft. Add to this the various slanders thatwere held against the pagans and healthens by the Church, who at the time of the Burniing times was under an intense sociolgical and political strain from various factions, the accusations of witchcraft became very dangerous things.

There's a sizeable body of evidence that paganism and christianity lived side by side for a good long while before the bull of pope Innocent III. (I think that the name of the pope who was the most polotically motivated and corrupt of the period and responcible for the grevious amount of bloodshead is ironic in a bitter sense."

But, that's also my theory. I'm sure that theres' quite a few folks who're porbablygoing to be offended with it and such. And I'm now way the heck off topic, and I apologize for that.

But I just wanted to share my views. And yes, that was the quick version. :)