New Moon misinformation - Rant

[Calzaer]

I've read book after book geared for newbie pagans that give blatantly false information about the new moon.

Several books (including some by otherwise arguably reputable authors, like Konstantinos) talk about the new moon and say stuff like "If you look hard enough, you can just see the outline of the new moon in the sky".

That is false false false false! You can't see the outline of the moon because THE NEW MOON IS NOT IN THE SKY AT NIGHT. The moon in the New phase SETS WHEN THE SUN DOES. Actually, just a little before or a little after, but the point is, by the time you're out in the field for a ritual, the new moon is below the horizon! You're more likely to see the new moon at 10am or 4pm than you are at 8pm or 2am. So no matter how hard you squint, you will NEVER see the new moon at midnight. Even if you're Superman. Even you're Superman AND you've flown up into space and put a giant mirror in geosynchronus orbit positioned so that it's reflecting the area overtop the entire western hemisphere! At midnight on the night of the new moon, the moon is directly on the other side of the planet from you! It's noon in China, and that's where the moon is at its peak!

Anyone who claims they CAN see the new moon at mightnight is either mistaken, lying, or crazy. It's simply not there to see.

<accent=scandinavian> There. I said it. I feel better. </accent>

[Sylvan]

*snergle* :lol:

[Flar's Freyja]

I'm no scientist, but I do believe that the moon never actually leaves the sky - I think that at new moon, what we can see is its dark side. And yes, I have seen that outline so I'm mistaken, lying and crazy.

Your question may be better suited to the Scientific forum where you should find people more knowledgeable than me!

[Mithrea]

Hey! I can find all kinds of sites through google that are crazy liars too!

http://www.chabotspace.org/vsc/planetarium/themoon/aboutthemoon/phases.asp
New Moon: When the Moon is nearly between us and the Sun, its night side faces the Earth and its disk appears completely dark. This is called the New Moon.

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/articles/moon-phases-science-teaching-tip.html
New Moon-the Sun, Moon, and Earth are lined up, with the bright side of the Moon facing towards the sun and away from Earth. The Moon appears to be very dark at this stage.

From: http://www.scienceu.com/observatory/articles/phases/phases.html
Sometimes, when the Moon is almost new, it is possible to dimly see its darkened disk.

Notice they say the moon "appears" very dark. That means it is up there to see, if only it could give off any light of its own.

[Flar's Freyja]

:fpraise:

[Tammy Sullivan]

:lol:

[hedgecub]

I'm no scientist, but I do believe that the moon never actually leaves the sky - I think that at new moon, what we can see is its dark side. And yes, I have seen that outline so I'm mistaken, lying and crazy.

Your question may be better suited to the Scientific forum where you should find people more knowledgeable than me!

Actually, if you think about it, what Calzaer says makes sense...

- cub

[Sequoia]

actually. . . the new moon is visible in the sky. It's not called the "new moon" because it leaves the sky. It's called the new moon because the earth casts it's shadow over it, rendering it dark. But it's still visible, and can block out stars in it's path across the sky. The earth's shadow is also what causes the different phases, such as the crescent moon.

Hope that helps clear things up. :) If you need sources, I can probably find them for you. Used to be obcessed with Astronomy. ;)

~Puma

Edited to add: sometimes the moon does leave the night sky. . . that's why it's position changes with the time of year, and why you sometimes see a full moon in the day sky.

[Tammy Sullivan]

the moon may leave your sight, but it does not leave the sky, be it night sky or no.

[Sequoia]

Edited to add: sometimes the moon does leave the night sky. . . that's why it's position changes with the time of year, and why you sometimes see a full moon in the day sky.

see bold above. :) The stars don't leave the sky either- but your view of them does change. Your view of the moon also changes. As well as the other planets in our solar system.

Our turning, along with the moon's orbit, account for changes in that view. We don't turn at exactly the same speed as the moon orbits- hence, it is visible in our night sky, or our day sky, or sometimes very low on the horizon, making the illusion that it has dissapeared.

Of course, all of this too would depend a bit on your location. :) When the moon might not be visible in the night sky here (hence visible in the day sky), it would be visible at night in another part of the world, I believe.

[Theres]

of course it never leaves the sky! where would it go?

and the dark side of the Moon never, ever faces the Earth... not during any phase.

[serenarian]

Just to throw the proverbial spanner in the works here, you can always see the Moon - through visualization. :D

*realises she is gonna get yelled at and runs out of post*

[Mindflayer]

I think that at new moon, what we can see is its dark side.


Like greenman says, we -never- see the dark side of the moon, we only see ONE side of it...always

[Storm]

I'm no scientist, but I do believe that the moon never actually leaves the sky - I think that at new moon, what we can see is its dark side. And yes, I have seen that outline so I'm mistaken, lying and crazy.

Your question may be better suited to the Scientific forum where you should find people more knowledgeable than me!


The moon doesn't leave the sky but you can't see the sun once it sets and it hasn't left the sky. At the new moon the moon sets with the sun. I don't see how you can see the moon if its below your line of sight.

[Flar's Freyja]

of course it never leaves the sky! where would it go?

and the dark side of the Moon never, ever faces the Earth... not during any phase.

:fpraise:

*ahem* In case any of you didn't see my statement that "I'm no scientist" ~ would you all please quit quoting my post as your example?

Carry on.

[Tammy Sullivan]

The moon doesn't leave the sky but you can't see the sun once it sets and it hasn't left the sky. At the new moon the moon sets with the sun. I don't see how you can see the moon if its below your line of sight.
the fact that you can't see it does not remove it from it's location...

[Tammy Sullivan]

I don't see how you can see the moon if its below your line of sight.
Huh?

[Calzaer]

Pumahine said:
It's not called the "new moon" because it leaves the sky. It's called the new moon because the earth casts it's shadow over it, rendering it dark. But it's still visible, and can block out stars in it's path across the sky. The earth's shadow is also what causes the different phases, such as the crescent moon.
That is simply 100% incorrect. The earth's shadow has nothing to do with the new moon. If the earth's shadow caused the new moon, then the new moon would occur when the earth was directly between the moon and the sun... which is when we see the FULL moon. The moon is NOT visible, it does NOT block out otherwise-visible stars, and the earth's shadow does NOT cause the other phases of the moon. The moon phases are caused by the direction from which the sun's light hits the moon's surface.

I will repeat: The moon in its "new" phase rises and sets when the sun does. In the "full" phase, it rises as the sun sets and sets as the sun rises. The reason a solar eclipse can only occur during the new moon is because that is the only time the moon and the sun are on the same side of the planet at the same time.

From: The Space Science Group -
http://www.spacesciencegroup.nsula.edu/sotw/newlessons/defaultie.asp?Theme=justlookingup&PageName=moonphasechart
"Name of Phase: New Moon. Time of Moonrise: Sunrise. Time of Moonset: Sunset. Location of Moon: [picture]. Explanation: Cannot be seen from earth."

From: Science U - http://www.scienceu.com/observatory/articles/phases/phases.html
"When in this phase, the Moon and the Sun rise and set at about the same time."

From: Nasa -
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/educ/science/1998/10-27-97.htm
"On the 30th of October... the waning old crescent moon rises in the eastern sky about an hour before dawn. For those of you who ventured out early enough... you may have been treated to seeing a thin sliver of gold hovering above the eastern horizon, where its delicate glow was quickly lost in the glare of the rising Sun. On the 31st, the moon (new moon) will rise at about the same time as the Sun, and therefore it'll set about the same time as does the Sun. Consequently, it will be invisible..."

I'll start quoting my damn college textbooks if that'll help dispel this utterly incomprehensible myth that the new moon can be seen at night. There is a serious, fundamental misunderstanding of observable scientific principles going on and it really irks me every time I encounter it.

[Phoenix Blue]

I think it depends on how strictly you interpret the "new moon" phase. A day or two before and after the moon becomes new, its crescent is very slim yet still visible. Many people will still consider this a new moon.

There's no reason to assume an idea with which you disagree is "utterly idiotic," when it's simply based on an alternative interpretation.

[Calzaer]

I edited that word out once I realized it was both inaccurate and inflammatory. My apologies.

edit:
I think it depends on how strictly you interpret the "new moon" phase. A day or two before and after the moon becomes new, its crescent is very slim yet still visible.
But only just before/after the sun sets. It's not ever in the actual "night" sky except for a few brief minutes, and even then it's almost directly on the horizon.

[Sequoia]

As I said, I could be wrong, it's been some time since my last astronomy class. In fact, thinking back on it, the shadow is what causes eclipses, is it not?

Reguardless, the new moon is visible, I have seen it before. I could just be insane. But I could have sworn it had something to do with the earth blocking the light from the sun. . . *shakes my head*

Oh, and it's "Puma Hime" not Pumahine. I have no idea what that is. "Hime" means "princess" in Japanese. And a Puma is a cougar, or mountain lion. :)

[mothwench]

i gotta agree with calzaer, here, and puma hime, yes what you are referring to is a lunar eclipse.
i've always wondered why i can never see the full moon at day, usually when the moon is up in the blue sky with the sun it's very crescent shaped, sometimes gibbeous, but never full.
thanks for clearing this up, c.

[Storm]

Just to clarify to Zephrina's HUH? The New Moon sets with the sun. At night it can't be observed during the New Moon Phase, because it is on the other side of the earth with the sun. "JUst cause you can't see it doesn't remove it from its location." I KNOW that but it's location IS WITH THE SUN. So if you are looking into the night sky and you see the moons darkness you aren't seeing the moon because it is on the other side of the earth with the sun. Two days before the new moon you might see the cresent and the shadowy part in the west but it goes down just shortly after the sun.