the maiden aspect

[mothwench]

i've got a question, or rather, a sort of poll, on what you think the maiden aspect represents.

Do you see the maiden aspect of the goddess in a similar way that christians see Mary, pure, and untouched by man, a virgin?
Or do you think the maiden represents womanhood until one becomes a mother, regardless of sexual activity?

in other words, (i'll just be blunt) do you think a girl who is not married/handfasted and has no aspirations regarding motherhood (yet), but who is not a virgin anymore either, is devoid of any aspect of the triple goddess? what about the wench? :sadeyes:

help me i'm getting depressed. :sniffsnif
i need answers.
bb, the mothwench

[Sylvan]

Good question, and I'm not sure if I have an answer. I'm kind of in limbo myself. Not a young girl, not a virgin, married, but not ever wanting to become a mommy...

I can't imagine that we skip from Maiden striaght to Crone...

They say that if you're creative, that you are "mothering" your talents, no matter what they are. But what if you're not all sorts of creative?

There's the Warrior aspect too, but She kinda gets left out or mingled with the other three aspects... And what if you're not the warrior/activist/stand and be COUNTED type?

Would love to hear more views on this....

[mothwench]

hey, i just had a thought, you know, my dogs and my turtles probably reckon i'm their mum... no, not the turtles...:;):

feeling a bit better now...
the mothwench

[Flar's Freyja]

Good question, and I'm not sure if I have an answer. I'm kind of in limbo myself. Not a young girl, not a virgin, married, but not ever wanting to become a mommy...

I can't imagine that we skip from Maiden striaght to Crone...

They say that if you're creative, that you are "mothering" your talents, no matter what they are. But what if you're not all sorts of creative?

There's the Warrior aspect too, but She kinda gets left out or mingled with the other three aspects... And what if you're not the warrior/activist/stand and be COUNTED type?

Would love to hear more views on this....

The topic of my book if I ever get it written is how it is possible to skip a great deal of one's maiden stage. This can happen to those who are forced into the role of parental children either through abuse or other circumstances that force one to grow up too fast. My book will also be about reclaiming that missed stage. (and the concept comes from my own life experience)

Please keep discussing this, I want to hear more as well.

[mothwench]

freyja, your book sounds really interesting. about when do you think you'll finish it?

:floating:
bb, the mothwench

[Sylvan]

I am buying your book when it comes out. Totally.

[mothwench]

right, i've added a poll to this now.

[Flar's Freyja]

right, i've added a poll to this now.

Thanks, all of you, for your enthusiasm and interest regarding my book ~ and you've inspired me to actually get the idea into print.

Mothwench, I love your second choice :T

But - my definition of the maiden would be "other." She is sexy and seductive and is aware that in her sexuality lies her power. She is fiery and creative in a way that is different from the creativity of the mother and crone - the maiden's creativity is more of a "look out world, here I come" attitude - she has a dream and wants to make it happen. She is also innocent because she hasn't lived long enough to know better on some things, but that's okay, because she doesn't know, she doesn't fear. And this makes her a warrior, because she has the youth and energy to fight or put forth the energy to manifest what she wants. She's sassy and spicy and cute and doesn't hesitate to manipulate by using her feminine wiles to reach her goal, either - even if that includes sex.

Unless she's damaged, which is the premise of my book. The above definition is the ideal.

Well, that might be a good intro to the book - what do you all think, maiden friends? Does it fit?

[mothwench]

:boing: real cool, freyja! i'm all cheered up now! i'd karm you again, but i already did! it won't let me!
g'nite then i'm off to bed- it's 2:44 am over here :uhhhhh:

[Flar's Freyja]

:boing: real cool, freyja! i'm all cheered up now! i'd karm you again, but i already did! it won't let me!
g'nite then i'm off to bed- it's 2:44 am over here :uhhhhh:

:woot: Me too, thank you! Nitey nite!

[SylverStar]

I see the maiden aspect as kind of virginal and pure. Not a virgin perse but a younger more lively, playful. You can still see an innocence in her eyes. Everything is still new. I view myself as a maiden being only 22 and on top of the world. :)

[Sylvan]

Freyja, I would agree with that definition as being the ideal.
But then, being "damaged", as you say.. How would one Get back to that ideal? When one has lived long enough to know better on alot of things, when one feels like the Crone but never was really allowed to be the Maiden and isn't interested in being the Mother, or doesn't particularly see herself as a sexual, sensual being...

But then again, there are so many roles in the world... It is very difficult to pigeonhole us all into three neat clean and precise categories....

[banondraig]

i picked the second option. i see the maiden as someone who belongs to herself alone rather than husband or family. this is more of a state of mind than anything having to do with whether or not a woman has physically had sex, or for that matter, children.

[MoonDust]

I went with option 2

:D

[mothwench]

i picked the second option. i see the maiden as someone who belongs to herself alone rather than husband or family. this is more of a state of mind than anything having to do with whether or not a woman has physically had sex, or for that matter, children.

me go with this attitude! i like!!!! yay, banondraig :floating:

[Gwynyvyr]

Do you see the maiden aspect of the goddess in a similar way that christians see Mary, pure, and untouched by man, a virgin?
Or do you think the maiden represents womanhood until one becomes a mother, regardless of sexual activity?
in other words, (i'll just be blunt) do you think a girl who is not married/handfasted and has no aspirations regarding motherhood (yet), but who is not a virgin anymore either, is devoid of any aspect of the triple goddess?

The terms maiden and virgin began as very different. 'Virgin' at one time indicated a female who was unmarried and independent of a man.She was beholden to no-one. A good thing to be.
In some old English literature, young men (ages 12-18) were sometime referred to as maidens! It is assumed that meant they were inexperienced in the ways of the world, not their sexuality.
As far as the 'maiden' aspect and your question: No, I don't think your sexual activity or lack of sexual activity has very much to do with you 'bonding' or indentifying with it. Most 'maiden' goddesses (Artemis, etc) were definitely strong, independent, and spirited.In ancient Greece, when a young woman died in childbirth, her belongings and clothing were given to the Temple of Artemis.This was to acknowledge that she had died as a 'maiden' in Artemis' care. Now, a pregnant woman was surely not virginal! I would dispell myself of the notion that as you are not virginal that you are somehow 'left out of the loop' when it comes to identifying yourself with the maiden aspect of the Triple Goddess.
See if you can find the book Pagan Meditations by Genevieve Paris.She is a French-Canadian psycologist that has written several books on archtypal goddesses and gods, focusing on how we can bring them into our lives and identify with them.

[Ben Trismegistus]

You hit the nail on the head, Gwyn!

The terms maiden and virgin began as very different. 'Virgin' at one time indicated a female who was unmarried and independent of a man.She was beholden to no-one. A good thing to be.

Not that long ago actually. Queen Elizabeth I was not referred to as "The Virgin Queen" because she never had sex. It was because she was independent and beholden to no man.


As far as the 'maiden' aspect and your question: No, I don't think your sexual activity or lack of sexual activity has very much to do with you 'bonding' or indentifying with it. Most 'maiden' goddesses (Artemis, etc) were definitely strong, independent, and spirited.
Agreed. In my opinion, a woman is aligned with the maiden aspect until she has a child (either literally or figuratively). A maiden is not necessarily innocent or pure, just not connected to a man, and not responsible for anyone's wellbeing but her own.

By figuratively, I think that some childless women still the mother aspect by being a "mother" to her friends or community.

[Aidron]

Though it has already been touched upon and stated, my thoughts on the maiden are as follows:

She is independent of all other beings in that she only has responsibilities unto herself.

She posesses no children, metaphorically or physically.

She is young, vibrant, and a free-spirit, dancing through life at her own speed and changing course upon a whim. Her actual age is not as important, though if I 'must' put a limit on it, I would say 30 seems logical.

For the most part she is untouched by the impressions of the world around her and retains some amount of innocence.

[Mau]

Though it has already been touched upon and stated, my thoughts on the maiden are as follows:

She is independent of all other beings in that she only has responsibilities unto herself.

She posesses no children, metaphorically or physically.

She is young, vibrant, and a free-spirit, dancing through life at her own speed and changing course upon a whim. Her actual age is not as important, though if I 'must' put a limit on it, I would say 30 seems logical.

For the most part she is untouched by the impressions of the world around her and retains some amount of innocence.

Now I'M depressed..LOL
21..and already out of my maiden phase. :(

[Flar's Freyja]

Though it has already been touched upon and stated, my thoughts on the maiden are as follows:

She is independent of all other beings in that she only has responsibilities unto herself.

She posesses no children, metaphorically or physically.

She is young, vibrant, and a free-spirit, dancing through life at her own speed and changing course upon a whim. Her actual age is not as important, though if I 'must' put a limit on it, I would say 30 seems logical.

For the most part she is untouched by the impressions of the world around her and retains some amount of innocence.

I absolutely love the way you define her. My perception of age would be anywhere between 13 and 30, since many are in the transition to mother between 20 and 30 - and while one may be a mother, she can still be a maiden.

Loving this discussion.

[Flar's Freyja]

Freyja, I would agree with that definition as being the ideal.
But then, being "damaged", as you say.. How would one Get back to that ideal? When one has lived long enough to know better on alot of things, when one feels like the Crone but never was really allowed to be the Maiden and isn't interested in being the Mother, or doesn't particularly see herself as a sexual, sensual being...

But then again, there are so many roles in the world... It is very difficult to pigeonhole us all into three neat clean and precise categories....

Yes, as I said in the above post, there are times when we are a bit of both or even all three. While I'm not sure that we can actually become maiden if we have missed that stage (I hope to get more insight into this in the process of my writing) I definitely believe that we can re-connect with that aspect of ourselves when the kids are grown and we have the life experience to have a more clear idea of what we want and don't want. Older women can rekindle the flame of the maiden in their sexuality and use it in a more powerful way. They often find the creativity that has slipped away during the mother years. Many women find creative abilities that they never realized they possessed in cronehood and their increased confidence in themselves can make them more likely to bring these abilities to the surface if they failed to do so in the maiden stage.

[Mnemosyne]

Great discussion! :thumbsup:

In ancient times, a maiden, virgo, was an unmarried woman. I think that our language empasizes that a maiden is actually a virigin.
Some of you have really definied the maiden so well and have really got me thinking. To make life balanced, I think that we should have have characteristics of all three aspects. Right now, I really like the maiden- full of adventure and always thinking about travels. I feel free. It's weird, even though I'm still at a young age, I felt that a few years ago, I didn't have this maiden characteristic in me; I was always stressing about everything- career, relationship, education. I feel younger and more free-spirited now than I did five years ago.

So Freyja, you have to get busy on this book. I would love to read it. :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Great discussion! :thumbsup:

In ancient times, a maiden, virgo, was an unmarried woman. I think that our language empasizes that a maiden is actually a virigin.
Some of you have really definied the maiden so well and have really got me thinking. To make life balanced, I think that we should have have characteristics of all three aspects. Right now, I really like the maiden- full of adventure and always thinking about travels. I feel free. It's weird, even though I'm still at a young age, I felt that a few years ago, I didn't have this maiden characteristic in me; I was always stressing about everything- career, relationship, education. I feel younger and more free-spirited now than I did five years ago.

So Freyja, you have to get busy on this book. I would love to read it. :)

You all are helping me more than you know!

I believe it is the African tribes who say that the mark of a healthy person is one who has their three faces intact :)

[Mnemosyne]

So what goddesses do you associate as maiden goddess? Athena and Artemis immediately spring to my mind. Also, a part of the year, I think that Persephone is also considered to be a maiden goddess as well.
A goddess who I think can kind of be considered also- Hestia. Even though she preserved virginity, she's seen as an older, wiser goddess- not always seen as young and free as a virgin goddess as Artemis. This virgin goddess has a motherly feel since she has strong role in the home.

[Flar's Freyja]

So what goddesses do you associate as maiden goddess? Athena and Artemis immediately spring to my mind. Also, a part of the year, I think that Persephone is also considered to be a maiden goddess as well.
A goddess who I think can kind of be considered also- Hestia. Even though she preserved virginity, she's seen as an older, wiser goddess- not always seen as young and free as a virgin goddess as Artemis. This virgin goddess has a motherly feel since she has strong role in the home.

Persephone, Bast, Ariadne, Maat, Freyja - and yes, although I see Hestia as mother, she is also maiden.

[mothwench]

:sunny: woot!
you're all wunnerfull. you really helped me out of my identity crisis. i even feel a bit foolish now having had it in the first place, but then foolish is better than depressed. :elf:
the answers were always there, i just needed people to nugde me in the right direction. it's so obvious, cause i'm not the only one who doesn't fit in to these broad catagories. would a woman trying hard for motherhood be denied the divine aspect simply because she is infertile? surely not. no more than an elderly woman who has stayed young and has defied her age would be lacking the crone aspect.
and i also believe in the theory that it's possible and ideal really to have some of all three aspects.
:steppy: :loveduv: 8O
hmm. tried to send maiden, mother and crone smilies. i think we could do with some better ones. :hehehehe:

thanks freyja, kurgarra, gwyn, ben, mnemosyne, banondraig, mau & moondust, and anyone i might have forgotten, for helping me out with this. :ballonsmi

:floating:

[mothwench]

So what goddesses do you associate as maiden goddess? Athena and Artemis immediately spring to my mind. Also, a part of the year, I think that Persephone is also considered to be a maiden goddess as well.
A goddess who I think can kind of be considered also- Hestia. Even though she preserved virginity, she's seen as an older, wiser goddess- not always seen as young and free as a virgin goddess as Artemis. This virgin goddess has a motherly feel since she has strong role in the home.

yeah, maybe i should have thought to do some research on some maiden goddesses bfore i posted this thread. right now i'm looking into arianrhod. do you know her story? it's one of failing tests of chastity, bearing twins, but remaining a maiden goddess nonetheless. gotta read more about it tho. and the story is full of gwonwins, gwillifiths and gwynneds which is a bit confusing to say the least. :colorful:
then i thought maybe brigid, but i think she has more mother aspect in her.

did athena have children?

[SylverStar]

I've seen Brigid related as a Maiden aspect

[mothwench]

well, i'll be darned. sylverstar's right! did some googling on brigid or brid, and found this:

Imbolg History
In traditional ceremony Imbolg is the festival of the Maiden Goddess aspect of the divine spirits. The Goddess is in this festival is associated with Brid (also Bridghid or Bridget), the bride who is waiting for the return of her groom, the sun God. She is seen as the Goddess of poetry, handcrafts and poetry. As the Maiden Goddess she is also seen as the Goddess of Fertility, nourishment and in some traditions divination.

In legend she is the daughter of Daghdha, The Great God and his wife who has three names Breng (lie), Meng (guile) and Maebel (disgrace). She bore him three daughters, all of whom were named Brighid, carrying on the examples of the triple goddess. Bridghid¹, is said to have been born on the threshold of a her house, at dawn. Quickly after her birth she began suckling on the milk of a supernatural cow. ...snip

hmm. dint think to copy the link. i'll edit it in in a minute.
here we go:
http://www.paganspath.com/magik/celtic/imbolg.htm

[Mnemosyne]

Love the discussion, Mothwench! I've never realized how we and the goddesses have the similarity: we may both share maiden and motherly or even crone characteristics. So are you going to lead us through discussions on the Mother and Crone aspects of the goddess too? What, a girls gotta learn about those aspects too in order to be balanced!

You're right about Brighid. Sylver and Mothwench! Hey, Mothwench, you should have Freyja tell you all about Imbolc- it's the day that she had her handfasting. I thought of another goddess representing the maiden aspect- Iris. How could I forget her? She's usually on my mind. :)

[mothwench]

Love the discussion, Mothwench! I've never realized how we and the goddesses have the similarity: we may both share maiden and motherly or even crone characteristics. So are you going to lead us through discussions on the Mother and Crone aspects of the goddess too? What, a girls gotta learn about those aspects too in order to be balanced!

You're right about Brighid. Sylver and Mothwench! Hey, Mothwench, you should have Freyja tell you all about Imbolc- it's the day that she had her handfasting. I thought of another goddess representing the maiden aspect- Iris. How could I forget her? She's usually on my mind. :)

:lol: who, me, lead a discussion? hehe, i feel honoured, but remember who was the one here with the identity crisis...
come to think of it, i do have a question or two regarding the crone... :rolleyes:
shall we keep on this thread?

[Mnemosyne]

:lol: who, me, lead a discussion? hehe, i feel honoured, but remember who was the one here with the identity crisis...
come to think of it, i do have a question or two regarding the crone... :rolleyes:
shall we keep on this thread?

Oooohh, we are going right to Crone? No, you should start a new thread on it. It's great what people think on each aspect. I usually get much of my info on deities from ancient sources or my own thoughts, since the aspects of the goddess are more of a modern interpretation on these goddesses, I like to hear your guys modern thoughs. lol.

[SylverStar]

Thats A good idea to have a thread for the Mother aspect and the Crone Aspect.

[SylverStar]

Ok well I thought I'd add some Artemis info.

Artemis is the maiden goddess of the new moon, She is part of a triad with Selene [or Demeter] as full moon and Hecate as dark moon. When she was young she was asked what she wanted as a gift by Zeus and she replied, "I want to run forever wild and free with my hounds in the woods and never, ever marry". She is a maiden, chaste, eternally young and virginal, called 'Artemis the undefiled' in Aeschylus's Agamemnon. She is the patroness of unmarried girls and was served by virgin priestesses. When women married, they had to leave her service forever. Yet no marriage took place without her. Young girls considering matrimony went to dance at her festivals. On the night before the wedding, they dedicated their tunics on her altar, and left behind their childhood memorabilia.

I stole this info from this site http://www.geocities.com/annafranklin1/goddessoracle.html

It seems to me that Artemis while being the Maiden is also there for you when you pass into the next stage of Motherhood.

[Mnemosyne]

Ok well I thought I'd add some Artemis info.

It seems to me that Artemis while being the Maiden is also there for you when you pass into the next stage of Motherhood.

Thanks for all that info on Artemis, SylverStar! I totally see how you see her as a goddess who leads you into Motherhood. Interesting- even though a virgin, she is also a goddess of childbirth. According to myths, Artemis was born one day before Apollo. After she was born, she helped her mother, Leto, go to Delos where there, Leto gave birth to Apollo.

[Aidron]

I absolutely love the way you define her. My perception of age would be anywhere between 13 and 30, since many are in the transition to mother between 20 and 30 - and while one may be a mother, she can still be a maiden.

Loving this discussion.


Well thank you.

Though, on age, I would not limit a minimum age to the maiden aspect. Why, she could even be a child, and I have often seen her depicted as such, merely to reflect a youthful, explorative outlook on life, full of curiosity, joy, occassionally mischief, and sometimes a bit naive.

[Jenne]

*chiming in late on this one*


OOOH, love love LOVE threads like this--get to learn AND share!

Ok, my thoughts on maiden: part of me sees her as the "undeflowered, Victorian shy miss" of the iconic "virginal" kind of image...but then another sees her as the "Lolita"-type, with that little, schoolgirl mien but inside she's feisty and challenging, both sexually and intellectually. She doesn't question, she just goes...whether it's with discipline or with adventure. She is in the midst of exploration but doesn't really know it yet--it's just her life, and she's going after it.

In fact, going with this thought, I can see her having two parts: the challenger and the innocent. Naive almost, but with an edge, you know? The edginess must come from the warrior part, questing and seeking, not nesting and protecting like the mother, and not resting and preserving like the crone.

I love the idea (and was developing it even as I read the whole thread) of striving to keep a balance of the 3 throughout your lifetime. I think, in the end, as I walk my own Path, I am trying to find that balance of the spirit of each of them in my own life.

VERY COOL! Freyja Hon, I will be first in line to get that book--and I want it SIGNED baby!!!

:)

[mothwench]

the amazon. she definately has the maiden aspect.

right, then the goddess threads will continue with the crone. i'll start a little thang on her tomorrow (or tonight if insomnia strikes again), chose the crone because she is my favorite, i'll explain in the thread. but someone else has to start the mother aspect thread, i really hardly relate to her at all, at least not at the moment.

[13thChylde]

The topic of my book if I ever get it written is how it is possible to skip a great deal of one's maiden stage. This can happen to those who are forced into the role of parental children either through abuse or other circumstances that force one to grow up too fast. My book will also be about reclaiming that missed stage. (and the concept comes from my own life experience)
You mean there's a chance of getting that part of me back?? That's wonderful! I was just starting to come into my own when I became pregnant with my son, and I don't think I've ever been able to bridge the gap between maiden and mother, so to speak.

Can't wait to hear more about your book!

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ok, my thoughts on maiden: part of me sees her as the "undeflowered, Victorian shy miss" of the iconic "virginal" kind of image...but then another sees her as the "Lolita"-type, with that little, schoolgirl mien but inside she's feisty and challenging, both sexually and intellectually. She doesn't question, she just goes...whether it's with discipline or with adventure. She is in the midst of exploration but doesn't really know it yet--it's just her life, and she's going after it.
Not trying to criticize, just curious.

Isn't this kind of like the madonna/whore dichotomy?

[mothwench]

*saucy chuckle* speaking of lolitas- look what i just found: top of the page, "achtland"
http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/deities.html

[Mnemosyne]

I like that site, Mothwench! It has such a great list of Celtic deities.

I think that I know what you are saying, Jenne. The Maiden has a certian innocence to her, yet budding sexuality. Look at Artemis- swore to virginity, but still attracted the lookings of Acteon. Even Hephaistos had a thing for Athena. Males did like these "maiden" goddesses. I think that the maiden aspect has a bit of sexuality to her, and that sexuality leads her into the Mother aspect. There has to be a bit of a bridge somewhere.

[Theres]

exactly.
i never think of virgin in this sense as 'untouched', but rather 'unattached'.

[Theres]

... she's feisty and challenging, both sexually and intellectually. She doesn't question, she just goes...whether it's with discipline or with adventure. She is in the midst of exploration but doesn't really know it yet--it's just her life, and she's going after it.

this sounds to me almost like Maiden as the Fool!
an interesting concept, and not at all inappropriate. i'm going to have to contemplate on this. :graduate:

and i know this is not the popular view, but i see Hekate as Maiden.

[Jenne]

Ben, yes, I think it might be a little of that--but isn't that debate centered on Judeo-Christo cultural beliefs? I'm not sure I'm tapping into that here, just drawing illustrations based on ideologues that I know of in my own limited scope.

And yes, I think the bridge of the maiden's sexuality is built when she finally reaches the mother stage, where her buds bloom and she is with child. The adventure has now shifted, and she is now, as a mother, a life-giver, not just a life-liver. Does that make sense? Her focus is on the fruit, not the process of obtaining the fruit. Where she was curious before, she has now fulfilled her curiosity and now has fulfillment.

The Crone knows curiosity and fulfillment and seeks to renew through her knowledge and wisdom of these past two cycles.

And this is just all my own imaginings, btw. I'm but a bud meself, mateys! :) I welcome all and any input.

[Jenne]

I like that site, Mothwench! It has such a great list of Celtic deities.

I think that I know what you are saying, Jenne. The Maiden has a certian innocence to her, yet budding sexuality. Look at Artemis- swore to virginity, but still attracted the lookings of Acteon. Even Hephaistos had a thing for Athena. Males did like these "maiden" goddesses. I think that the maiden aspect has a bit of sexuality to her, and that sexuality leads her into the Mother aspect. There has to be a bit of a bridge somewhere.
Yes, and I think the sensuality really comes more into play for HER in the mother phase. In the maiden phase, she's more after her goals, not really fulfilling them yet. She's exploring sex, both as a concept and practice, as well as her sexuality--it's a beginning of the venture, rather than the completion of it. Think Alice in Wonderland I guess...

[Flar's Freyja]

This discussion has been very helpful, and I'm wondering if any of you would be willing to help me out a bit. I've mentioned that I have a concept for a book that will deal with the "damaged" maiden, women who for reasons of abuse, being forced to grow up too fast and other reasons either lose their maiden stage or simply do not get to live these years to the fullest. Several of you have told me that this is a book you would be interested in reading.

For instance, one of the things that I have found thus far is that the maiden's self-image and self-esteem is subject to harm due to the consistent unrealistic presentation of the thin, perfect woman in the media despite the fact that we've known better for over twenty years. While we say that we are aware of this, it has not changed much. To test my theory, I picked up a few women's magazines and looked for ads with larger women. Issues of Ladies' Home Journal and Good Housekeeping had none, and Cosmopolitan had only one. The fire of the maiden's sexuality is dimmed when she is subjected to feeling insecure about her body and looks by society.

That's just one damage factor. Some others are sexual abuse, being placed in the role of a parental child, and pressure to succeed in the male world.

If you have something to say about this issues and wouldn't mind sharing your personal experience, please e-mail me. I'll adjust my profile so that I can receive e-mails from the site.

If you have worked on these issues and have been successful in reclaiming your maiden stage in later life, I'd also like to hear from you as I also plan to address this.

[Flar's Freyja]

this sounds to me almost like Maiden as the Fool!
an interesting concept, and not at all inappropriate. i'm going to have to contemplate on this. :graduate:

and i know this is not the popular view, but i see Hekate as Maiden.

Wow, could you please expand on that? I'm very interested!

[Flar's Freyja]

You mean there's a chance of getting that part of me back?? That's wonderful! I was just starting to come into my own when I became pregnant with my son, and I don't think I've ever been able to bridge the gap between maiden and mother, so to speak.

Can't wait to hear more about your book!

Well ~ I have confirmed through some 'classic' research that we do wake up one day, either in late mother or beginning crone - and realize what we lost. The topic has been written about in women's studies and psychology, but not from the pagan perspective. This is my challenge, to translate this and address it from the place of our spirituality and belief. I have realized that the book is going to take a long time - I have many important ideas that need to be explored.

I personally know a few adolescent girls who seem destined to survive the perils of this stage in our society and I'm sure their moms will let me interview them. One is being raised by a wonderful pagan mom, and the other two are in the middle of the divorce of a family that was unusually traditional and healthy - until Mom realized that she is a lesbian. And these girls appear to be doing wonderfully despite being faced with very unusual challenges.

Again, your stories would be appreciated. Totally anonymous, of course - but I also plan to acknowledge all contributors with their permission. You have all already helped so much with your awesome definitions.

The answers that I'm hoping to find are how to prevent the damage in the first place, how to find the maiden we lost, and how to welcome her back.

[kewlhippiechick]

For me she is untouched...

[Kalika]

To me, the maiden represents a woman who has not yet reached motherhood, but it not necessarily a virgin. One who is pure of heart and intent, and is learning the ways of the world. :)

Blessings,

Kalika

[morrigen]

I subscribe to the view that most of us seem to...the maiden as feisty and adventurous etc. I think motherhood is the defining transition...to, well, the mother :kooky:

[Mnemosyne]

I subscribe to the view that most of us seem to...the maiden as feisty and adventurous etc. I think motherhood is the defining transition...to, well, the mother :kooky:

Every time that I read this thread, I have new ideas on the subject. I agree with you that the maiden is adventurous. I've never used the word "feisty" to describe her though. Now that I think about maiden goddesses, they are quite feisty. Being adventurous and feisty, she does not come off as mature as the mother goddess figures. Thus, she needs more to learn in order to reach this maturity level. Now I'm thinking about Athena as a maiden goddess. If the maiden goddess has more to learn, how does Athena, a goddess of wisdom, fit into this category? There's always so much to think about.

[mothwench]

isn't she an icon of aquired wisdom tho? her companion owl a symbol of learning and schooling. i think she fits the maiden quite well.

[Kalika]

Yes, I believe she is largely associated with learning... and I agree, that the owl is a good representation. :)

[AmbivalentMirage]

I recently read "The Wisewoman's Guide..." by Elizabeth Brooke, in which she discusses this.

I see the maiden as a powerful, self-governed woman who is sensual, sexual, passionate, mighty, creative, alluring, and protective. :) She doesn't have to be a virgin... she's simply not a mother yet.


Afterall... since when is losing one's virginity a rite of passage? At that rate, nuns NEVER get past maiden! I think it's some patriarchal thing... "To be a man, you must have sex!" or "To be a woman, you must have sex!"

[Theres]

Wow, could you please expand on that? I'm very interested!

which part?

(sorry about the loooong delay. i kinda lost track of this thread :ggrief: )

[Mystra]

I recently read "The Wisewoman's Guide..." by Elizabeth Brooke, in which she discusses this.

I see the maiden as a powerful, self-governed woman who is sensual, sexual, passionate, mighty, creative, alluring, and protective. :) She doesn't have to be a virgin... she's simply not a mother yet.


Afterall... since when is losing one's virginity a rite of passage? At that rate, nuns NEVER get past maiden! I think it's some patriarchal thing... "To be a man, you must have sex!" or "To be a woman, you must have sex!"

This thread is incredibly interesting to me because I feel that I am smack in the middle of Maiden/Mother and am trying to identify myself as I transition. I don't think the maiden aspect stops when you loose your virginity nor do I think the Mother aspect starts only when you become a mother. I have seen on this thread that some others think along these lines as well.... soooo.....

:fofftopic (maybe)

How does one transition? How do you move yourself from a maiden into more of a mother aspect without bearing children? Sorry if this is off topic...I didn't want to start a new thread if I didn't have to (let me know though and I will :) )

Mystra

[mothwench]

hi mystra! you can post on this thread, that's fine, but i think the question you have is rather interesting and deserves a thread of its own. we've got this one on the maiden, i started another one on the crone already, and the mother aspect has no thread! i think your question would be a great way to start one. :)

[Mystra]

A new thread will be started momentarily!! Mother aspect and transitions.

Mystra

[Jenne]

that with Imbolc upon us momentarily, this is a time-appropriate thread to bump up *giggle*.

Anyway, I still find what people said on this thread fascinating, especially considering that the maiden seems to stretch from child-woman, to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, to shy violet here...it's really cool!

Any other thoughts, while we are in the cross-quarters? (or will shortly be)

[mothwench]

on the maiden? and imbolc? yes! one primary symbol of imbolc is milk, right? so why is imbolc symbolised by the maiden and not the mother? or am i confusing imbolc with something else?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well from a Celtic standpoint, it's when the Cailleach, the Old Woman of Winter, is transformed into Bride/Bridget, as the Fair Woman of February. It heralds the return of life and new beginnings, hence why many will associate it with the maiden aspect.

[Keith Dragon]

I've always felt that a Maiden is an Old Soul in a New body. She has opened herself to the fires of the Universe and allows them to flow through her. She is at peace with who she is and what she wants, and doesn't have to explain herself. She has an essence of spiritual beauty that weeps from her in a glowing aura of protection. She is not ignorant of the Darkness, but chooses to not let it have control over her. She sees and know the path she must take, and knows that that is priority one, no matter what.

The maiden has the fresh eye for old problems, and the energy to lead a path through the darkend times, like a divining rod for the purity of Creation.

I also feel that a true maiden will carry a part of that essence throughout her life into the other domains of motherhood and crone. What she accomplishes may not be as influencial as the inspiration she invokes in others to follow her. Purely magnetic to other souls seeking to be awakened.

However, in my travels, I have come across few true maidens.

Keith Dragon

[Tzhebee]

I've been thinking a lot about the Maiden, Mother Crone aspects and here's where I'm at so far:

It's all in your head. It has nothing to do with actual age or "cherry" status or even if you have children.

Personally, right now, I am aspects of all three. I'm a maiden (or child) everytime I crawl around on the floor with my kids and play silly games and call each other Weirdo and Goof-head. Or when a bunch of friends get together and we do *really* stupid things like we used to do in high school (jumping on a pogo stick on a wet wooden patio-yeah brillant).

At that same time, I am a mother. I teach and learn with my children (learn more than I teach, usually) and take the time to answer their questions and give them hugs when they need them and when they don't.

Then there are times when I feel like a crone. Like I'm past my prime (funny, since I'm only 27). We have a 19 year old girl who lives with us. She has no emotional support from her family and realized that 1) she's not ready to be on her own, 2) she needs the love of a family and 3) she emotionally couldn't stay where she is at. To her, I feel more like a crone than a mother. I try to be there for support and to help her with her problems, but more like a mentor or someone who's been that path more than as a mother to console her.

Then, there are those women out there who may never have the Mother aspect. They just have no need to ever mother a child or desire to be "motherly". They transition quite well from Maiden to Crone. Or how about those ladies out there that never grow up. Perhaps they never reach the Crone aspect. And sadly, the young girls who never have the chance to be a Maiden. They are forced to grow up too fast or have things happen in their lives that do not allow them the feeling of a Maiden.

So, I guess all, any and any-and-all combinations are possible. But, just like people say about your age; it's all in how you feel.

[Gypsy flower]

technicly I believe the maiden is supposed to be a virgin..
but personally I think it doesnt matter!!:caffeine:

[Agaliha]

I voted: a girl or woman, regardless of state of *cherry*

maid·en n.
a. An unmarried girl or woman.
b. A virgin.
Dictionary.com

When I use the term maiden it is always in the sense of a young girl, not necessary a young virgin girl.
Maiden also can refer to a woman or Goddess that is independent, not married, doesn't have to answer to a man...and have nothing to do with the fact that she is a virgin or not.
I have read quite a few articles and books that mention Virgin Mary was really Maiden Mary-- Maiden implying that she was a young woman, unmarried and not tied to a man at the time...not that she was a sexual virgin.

So in my opinion it can mean both, but I lean toward the unmarried, independent view, not the sexual.

[Bix]

So can a maiden still be a maiden if she's even in any sort of relationship?

[mothwench]

So can a maiden still be a maiden if she's even in any sort of relationship?
yeah... i reckon the maiden refers to a woman who is unmarried, and who has no children in her care. :) i think independance is the key word here.
i also feel the roles are interchangable. a person who looks after other people's children will leave her maiden role for whatever time she spends with those children. a stressed-out mother who goes on vacation may take up the maiden role for a certain period of time.
but i'm probably the wrong person to listen to on this matter, i started this thread ages ago when i was getting interested in wicca, (which i no longer am) and was wondering about the three aspects of "the goddess".

[Mouse]

I didn't read the whole thread, so if i'm repeating something someone else has said, i apologise. I didnt vote on the poll because none of the options seemed to fit the way i view the maiden.

I see myself in the maiden stage. I'm not a virgin anymore, but i haven't exaclty uhm.. "been around the block" either. I think of the maiden as innocent and pure yes, but not just because she has her *cherry*. I think it's a lot to do with self respect, and not jumping in the sack with every other guy (or girl) who crosses your path. She's not a child, but hasn't fully learned what it means to be a woman either.
I don't think her power is sexual much at all, i think it's more sensual touch and courting, optimisim and tenderness. I think she is what women are until they experience their first *real* heart break, and that returning to that state of mind can help ease the bitterness people are left with. She's not ignorant, she's just still learning.

I have a lot of ideas on this, but i just woke up from a nap and am still waiting for my brain to kick in, so i'll have to come back to this thread.

virginity doesn't mean what it once did. apparently, way back in the never never, to be a virgin ment to "complete unto herself", not nessisarily celebate. maybe just unmarried, still with freedom, etc.

To experience the mother stage i dont think you actually need to have children, infact i think a lot of people who do have children prolly shouldnt either, and can't be called a mother dispite the pregnancy and birth of the child. To me the mother stage is about careing and nurtureing. This could be your partner, your job, your pets or even your veggie garden. It about strengh, preserverance, maturity, and the ability to guide and help others, having children is just an obvious way to mark the transition.

i hope this made scence.
~miriam

[EternalMaiden]

I think respectively in this day and age, the status of a young, vibrant lady growing into a young woman is sufficient to qualify as a Maiden.

The phase is about prosperity in life, a fresh outlook, a vibrant and ready heart and perhaps naive and enchanted mind.

So virgin could be metaphorical as often many things are... Virgin to childbirth, virgin to marriage, virgin to the responisibilities only a woman or goddess could enlighten.

I do silently wish we had more virgin maidens, though. *le sigh*

[Mad Jasmine]

i've got a question, or rather, a sort of poll, on what you think the maiden aspect represents.

Do you see the maiden aspect of the goddess in a similar way that christians see Mary, pure, and untouched by man, a virgin?
Or do you think the maiden represents womanhood until one becomes a mother, regardless of sexual activity?

in other words, (i'll just be blunt) do you think a girl who is not married/handfasted and has no aspirations regarding motherhood (yet), but who is not a virgin anymore either, is devoid of any aspect of the triple goddess? what about the wench? :sadeyes:

help me i'm getting depressed. :sniffsnif
i need answers.
bb, the mothwench

The maiden represents youth, whether she's a little child or a young woman that doesn't have children. A maiden doesn't have to be a virgin, she can have lots of partners or even be married but she's still girly and hasn't had children of her own. Young girls can be mothers although they're not maidens. I don't think maidenhood is about virginity but that stage before becoming a mother. If she's still not a mother by the time she reaches middle age then she'll be entering the crone aspect.

[stella01904]

MM ~ Contrary to popular belief, the hymen is not a "cherry" you "pop". It is a thickening around the vaginal opening, kind of like a hair scrunchie, caused by the flood of hormones one gets when young. It goes away as one gets older, sex does not rip it away.

There is no "virgin test", you can't look at a girl's vagina and tell if anyone's been in there. Doctors and nurses have to explain this to irate parents OVER and OVER and OVER.

I relate Maiden energy to a young woman who has not yet had a child. The child puts her in the next phase, Mother. It's Maiden, Mother, Crone, not Maiden, Girl Who Puts Out But Takes Birth Control, Mother, Crone.
BB, Stella

[Nitefalle]

I have to disagree with everyone who thinks the Maiden should be innocent. I don't see that as a prerequisite at all. I know plenty of people who are mothers and yet very naive. I know many Maidens who are mothers by default of having a child, yet lack any real mothering instincts. They are mothers by accident, not intent. I know a young girl who, by accident of biology and genetics, experienced menopause at age 19. Is she an automatic Crone? I think that a woman who is beholden only to herself is anything but innocent because to me, that implies a lack of wits. Women who take responsibility for themselves are honest with themselves and have to be able to look at the world around them honestly, not with rose-colored glasses, and not stupidly.
I consider myself a little bit of all three. I am not married (though in a life-long relationship), so I should be a Maiden. But I also love children, want children one day, and mother all my friends and loved ones. Does that make me a Mother? Does any little bit of wisdom I possess make me a Crone? I think that either these archetypes should be expanded or done away with. I have seen many women on the pagan path confused because they feel they don't "fit" into one of these categories and causes them to feel conflicted and it's unnecessary and ridiculous.

[stella01904]

Then there are those women out there who may never have the Mother aspect. They just have no need ever to mother a child or desire to be "motherly". They transition quite well from Maiden to Crone. MM ~ I'm afraid I have to take issue with this. A childless woman is still birthing things and nurturing projects. We are talking about something metaphorical of the productive years. Jumping from Maiden to Crone would be jumping from starter energy to packing up and preparing to go, with nothing in between.
I consider myself a little bit of all three. Agreed - we are reflections of the Triple Goddess, there are three aspects but I think of her as one Goddess. I think that either these archetypes should be expanded or done away with. I have seen many women on the pagan path confused because they feel they don't "fit" into one of these categories and causes them to feel conflicted and it's unnecessary and ridiculous.
They're too vital to the Craft to be "done away with", they represent the cycles of life, the seasons, us. The problems come in when people try to read them too literally. You don't need to have children to manifest the Mother, you can birth anything from a book, to a pot of chili, to a company, to a stack of clean laundry. BB, Stella

[Tigerlily]

I view the maiden as a young woman who is not yet a mother.

For me, the mother stage is not actual motherhood (although it could be), it's more of a metaphor of life. A woman in her late thirties, without children, but who is a manager of her own company in my book a "Mother" since she takes care of her workers and others. Also a mother can be a woman who has no children of her own but is a great garden keeper and is a "Mother" to her plants. :)

[Cassie]

I have never thought of the Maiden Aspect of the Goddess meaning or symbolising virginity. To me it symbolises vitality and unbound independence. It can be a very sexual aspect, but it is also about adventure, exploration and freedom.
However I do think all people at all stages of life can connect with all aspects of the Goddess, regardless of age or the state of their 'cherry' as the poll puts it.