Ok, I've got another quick one

[Danek]

Is it true that if you work magick against someone else in a harmful way, that it will come back to you?

P.S. If you couldn't tell already, I just started learning about magick. And yes, I have been reading the other posts here. :)

[Rain Gnosis]

Depends on who you ask. Some believe in karma - that is, your actions have reactions. Some believe if you create negative energy you'll have to live in it (make your bed and sleep in it). Some believe if you send energy out it'll return. Some believe it'll return threefold. Some believe it involves "lords of karma" that mete out punishment if you do nasty things. There's no one definite right answer.

[Aidron]

Rain is correct, as usual. It depends entirely upon whom you speak to.

I for example, do not believe in karma. Karma, loosely put, is recieving back what you send out, and since there is no universal right or wrong (it is all based upon opinion) then how can one ever truly judge what we do is negative or positive? Divinity?

Others do believe what you send out will come back to you, some threefold, others feel it is not always multiplied by three, but merely an expression.

I also do believe that if you manifest negative energy, you will never truly rid yourself of it. The same goes for positive. It takes one heck of a cleansing procedure to remove every trace of energy from you and your surroundings, and over time a little bit of negativity can add up, causing you quite a bit of harm.

I do believe in cause and effect, which sounds like karma, but not quite. For instance, if you speak very horribly to someone, such as being verbally abusive (calling a black person the forbidden "N" word, which I won't even type) and then bam, you have a flat tire, is it karma? Not to me. You have a flat tire cause A.) you forgot to put air in it. B.) You ran over a shard of glass in the road. So forth and so on. It could have been anything, but it's not karma. All actions do have reactions, and we are all connected, but karma just does not have enough logic behind it for me to support. Granted, when I say stuff like "we are all connected..." that is my belief, so don't mistake me for preaching to you, please. :lol:

Study karma is my advice, and how various cultures see it. Only then will you be informed enough to truly come to a conclusion that satisfies you.

[Fairywolf]

I myself see it as *what you send out will come back* maybe not 3 fold but you will get it back. I won't go in to it very deep (my brain has died for the night my body just hasn't followed it yet :) ) Though that is just My opinion. :)

[Marchosias]

[QUOTE=Danek]Is it true that if you work magick against someone else in a harmful way, that it will come back to you?

QUOTE]

No. I say that it is not true. I will venture as far to say that the concept is only in place so people don't try anything that harms one, so to speak.

[silmarien]

I think that the way it works is not literally like "you send out and it comes back", but it's something more abstract. There more good things you do and the more positive energy you send back, the more it effects yourself in the same way. I mean, doing bad things for others is like doing bad for your own self, because you make yourself a less positive person, and you fill yourself with negativity. And if you do good, you cure and strengthen your spirit.
That's what I believe :rolleyes:

[nomadicdragon]

Personally, I believe that if you intentionally harm someone, in some way you will feel it in your life somehow..even if it is just overwhelming guilt. I do believe that life has it's way of bringing the good and bad that we do back to us.. but it is also a personal belief that no matter what any of us belief and whatever paths we follow we all have to make that decision on our own. but sometimes it's good to hear other people's thougths on it sometime they help me put things into words..

[Ben Trismegistus]

Here's a better question: why would you want to work magic against someone else in a harmful way?

[Tammy Sullivan]

While you may think it a better question Ben, it is not the one Danek asked. He asked "is it true"

and that depends on him.

[Ben Trismegistus]

While you may think it a better question Ben, it is not the one Danek asked. He asked "is it true"

and that depends on him.
Well, that question was amply answered in different ways by several people. So I've proposed a different question.

I think the two questions are connected -- would you refrain from harming someone with magic because you may be harmed in return, or would you refrain from harming someone with magic because it's unethical?

[Tammy Sullivan]

ah... :)

[Rain Gnosis]

I think the two questions are connected -- would you refrain from harming someone with magic because you may be harmed in return, or would you refrain from harming someone with magic because it's unethical?

I chatted to someone from another forum months ago who was in university studying human behaviour and morals. She said according to her class, most people are comfortable with/able to work with "do bad things, get punished" then "do bad things, that's unethical". It reminds me of a class in highschool where we were given a scenario from homework that involved a coworker asking one to help him scam the company and asked if we'd participate and how we'd deal with it - only one student in the entire class wrote "no, I wouldn't, because it's wrong" rather then "no, I wouldn't, because I might get caught".

How often do you read the warning that we shouldn't do nasty magic because karma will come back and bite us in the ass? And how often does that keep people from doing this or that, not because it's better for the universe and the other person not to send that out, but because they're afraid to get that karmic kick?

[Ben Trismegistus]

I chatted to someone from another forum months ago who was in university studying human behaviour and morals. She said according to her class, most people are comfortable with/able to work with "do bad things, get punished" then "do bad things, that's unethical". It reminds me of a class in highschool where we were given a scenario from homework that involved a coworker asking one to help him scam the company and asked if we'd participate and how we'd deal with it - only one student in the entire class wrote "no, I wouldn't, because it's wrong" rather then "no, I wouldn't, because I might get caught".

How often do you read the warning that we shouldn't do nasty magic because karma will come back and bite us in the ass? And how often does that keep people from doing this or that, not because it's better for the universe and the other person not to send that out, but because they're afraid to get that karmic kick?
Yeah, well this is my fundamental problem with the Wiccan Rede. Not that it's a bad idea in principle, but because it seems to suggest that the only reason not to do bad things is because you'll get punished. This viewpoint leads to the dangerous assumption that only religious people have morals, and that without a moral guideline like (for instance) the Ten Commandments, people would kill and steal all the time. I think that's ridiculous.

However, to address your particular post, sure most people are more comfortable with the "bad actions are punished" style of morality -- it's much easier to just have a set of rules to follow under penalty of punishment than to actually have to form your own concept of right and wrong.

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE: I might answer "no, because I might get caught" to your question about scamming your company, but only because the company I work for is a law firm that represents some truly evil individuals and corporations, and therefore it's a matter of moral gray area whether scamming them would be "bad". :)

[Rain Gnosis]

Yeah, well this is my fundamental problem with the Wiccan Rede.

Ok, I'm confused. The rede is just "an it harm none, do what thou wilt" - it doesn't in itself prescribe punishment? Or do you mean the whole poem? My problem with the rede is that it's been made into a soundbyte. "don't harm anyone *pat on the head* off you go".

And I agree with what you said about morals outside religion - I don't know how many times I've heard people say religion must exist so people have morals, considering I was raised without religion and have just as many morals as anyone else I know.


therefore it's a matter of moral gray area whether scamming them would be "bad". :)

To me, scamming is bad, regardless of company. But maybe I just have odd morals what with being raised without religion :lol:

[Laurelei]

I agree with Rain Gnosis. There are so many stories and accounts of those that do 'black' magic, or that which is obviously wrong. Some even of people who have accidentally harmed someone through a magickal working or other act. These people almost always ended up messed.

I know someone who used to do 'black' magic. The lunatic probably still does, she just has the cheek to call it 'white' magic (one thing I've learned the best over my first year of being a witch: dogs may see in black and white but that doesn't mean magick is). Anyway, this girl, I'm not too sure what she actually did, but she spouted a load of rubbish to us in a Christian school classroom (she wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, still isn't) about 'black' magick and went on to say she did a lot of it herself. Half of it was quite believable (we were about 10 YEARS OLD at the time).
Teacher walks in. Big trouble. Girl shipped off to the staff room where she's forced to show them (what were those daft teachers thinking!?) some stupid trick she did earlier with a black glove.
Anyhow, three years on she's spouting a load of rubbish to us about 'white' magick. Believe me it really was rubbish, and I've only studied the craft for a year. I admit, my first tottering steps into the Craft were part of a minor craze and a little curiosity, but I like to think I'm way past that. They talked about the local Witchcraft shop having rip-off prices while I was chatting to Astral Spirits and the God and Goddess.
That's all off the point. Despite her messing with 'white' magick her life drained further and further into the toilet. Stories, often from her, about ,ahem, goings on with her and a group of boys I know in the woods. Being suspended from school for smoking weed. Cutting herself. Dodgy step-parents. I find it very hard to believe that her sheer ignorance of Karma and Witchcraft wouldn't cause the mess her life is in now.

There are thousands of stories like this, and things similar to Karma in hundreds of cultures. Do you ever notice that, spiritually at least, the 'good guys' always tend to come out best. Not very often in monetary possesions, yes, but there's not much bad luck or niggling thoughts when they try to sleep.

Of course, you can always see for yourself, but just watch out you don't become the subject of another story of Karma gone nasty.

That's my thoughts for now.
Laurelei

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ok, I'm confused. The rede is just "an it harm none, do what thou wilt" - it doesn't in itself prescribe punishment? Or do you mean the whole poem? My problem with the rede is that it's been made into a soundbyte. "don't harm anyone *pat on the head* off you go".
I'm sorry - I meant the Threefold Law. Got my Wiccan goodies mixed up. :)


To me, scamming is bad, regardless of company. But maybe I just have odd morals what with being raised without religion :lol:
Yeah, I was actually only half serious. Besides, I'd get caught! ;)

[Athena-Nadine]

Rain is correct, as usual. It depends entirely upon whom you speak to.

I for example, do not believe in karma. Karma, loosely put, is recieving back what you send out, and since there is no universal right or wrong (it is all based upon opinion) then how can one ever truly judge what we do is negative or positive? Divinity?
I agree with this entire post, and while I do believe that all actions carry consequences, I do not believe in Karma or The Law of Return.

The only thing I have to add is, I see and hear a lot of people treating the act of intentionally harming someone else as a bad thing. But is it, always?

Personally, I feel intent is more important than action.

[Theres]

i don't believe there are any "moral gray areas". i believe if we look deep enough, there are absolute rights and wrongs. most of us just don't want to look that deeply if the possibility of having to correct ourselves exists. rationalisation usually wins out.

as far as harmful actions returning in some way... yes, i believe they do. but it goes much further than just magickal workings.
i think that the law of karma is universal, and applies in every aspect of life. water seeks its own level, and the Universe abhors imbalance. not a judgement, just a fact.

[Aidron]

i don't believe there are any "moral gray areas". i believe if we look deep enough, there are absolute rights and wrongs. most of us just don't want to look that deeply if the possibility of having to correct ourselves exists. rationalisation usually wins out.

as far as harmful actions returning in some way... yes, i believe they do. but it goes much further than just magickal workings.
i think that the law of karma is universal, and applies in every aspect of life. water seeks its own level, and the Universe abhors imbalance. not a judgement, just a fact.


If we look deep enough we will find absolute rights and wrongs?

Now, I do not want to pick apart your beliefs in an offensive "You're so wrong you foolish man!" way, but if I may, I'd like to point out a few things.


Absolute right and wrongs? When has there ever been an absolute? I cannot think of one outside of change.

Again, I'd like to know who you all think dictates what is right and wrong. Of course amongst Christians it is easy, the bible dictates it, and since the bible was supposedly written by god, the answer falls back to divinity.

In paganism there is a huge individualistic presence. So, divinity is not exactly a prudent answer I feel since everyone's path is different.

While I admit, walking down the hall in school and being harassed is hardly something that wil brighten up my day, whom is to say it is right or wrong? It can be hurtful, but it may in fact be the 'right' thing for me at the time. To learn a lesson from the situation, grow, and become stronger. Should those who had a hand in it be punished even though they helped me in the long run to become a better person? Just something to think about.

[Rain Gnosis]

Again, I'd like to know who you all think dictates what is right and wrong

Wouldn't you assume that people individually decide what is right and wrong for themselves?

Edit to play devil's advocate -


While I admit, walking down the hall in school and being harassed is hardly something that wil brighten up my day, whom is to say it is right or wrong? It can be hurtful, but it may in fact be the 'right' thing for me at the time

If someone is about to get hit by a car and you could intervene, would you not do so because maybe they are meant to learn from it? If your father was sick, would you not try to help heal him because maybe he's gotta learn something from it? If someone was going around raping people, would you not do a justice or binding spell because maybe the girls who were raped are supposed to learn from it? If your friends were harassing someone for being gay, would you keep your mouth shut because maybe the guy has something to learn from it?

What if what that man had something to learn about how a stranger could stand up for him? Or what if instead of the girls who are being raped learning something, the rapist needs to learn about jail-time? What if through your dad being sick, you need to learn how to do reiki? What if the person who could get hit is meant to learn something through becoming friends with you because you saved him? What if your bully is supposed to learn compassion because you told him how you felt?

It's too easy to go "well maybe X is supposed to learn from it" and rationalize into oblivion. Whether I learned something from the bullies who harassed me in highschool or not doesn't affect whether they were right or wrong doing it - much like if someone rapes a young woman it doesn't matter whether she learns not to walk alone in alleys at night, it's still wrong.

[Aidron]

Wouldn't you assume that people individually decide what is right and wrong for themselves?


Of course I do, since morals and ethics are based upon opinion, and what determines them could be how we are raised, an inclination, etc.

Thus, all things right or wrong are percieved by pure opinion, so once again, who is to say what you have done is right, or wrong? There is no universal guideline to go by, since all things can be looked at as negative and good, that is the nature of the universe.

[Athena-Nadine]

i don't believe there are any "moral gray areas". i believe if we look deep enough, there are absolute rights and wrongs. most of us just don't want to look that deeply if the possibility of having to correct ourselves exists. rationalisation usually wins out.

as far as harmful actions returning in some way... yes, i believe they do. but it goes much further than just magickal workings.
i think that the law of karma is universal, and applies in every aspect of life. water seeks its own level, and the Universe abhors imbalance. not a judgement, just a fact.
OK, let's take this one step further, just for the sake of argument. Let's take the idea of intentionally causing harm to another. We all know it's considered wrong, and that many people would consider this one of those absolutes you mentioned, and say that it is wrong, no exceptions.

Now, I don't see things that way. If someone comes at me with lethal intent, you can be sure that I will fight with everything I have--intentionally--to protect my life or the lives of my loved ones. If we consider my statement above, I would be just as wrong as that person trying to kill me, because if it is an absolute, there is no exception to the rule, which means that I would be required to not intentionally cause this person harm, under any cicumstances, allowing him/her to kill me, or worse.

*...ponders...*

Nope, I don't buy it. If someone breaks into my house, it will be assumed that s/he is there to cause me, and everyone else in my house, harm. As such, there is an extremely high likelihood that they will not walk out of it alive, and my gods, and the law, would be behind me. Call it Karma if you will; I call it just retribution, or consequence. There is not a person around who can convince me that my actions would be wrong.

Edited for a typo

[Rain Gnosis]

Thus, all things right or wrong are percieved by pure opinion, so once again, who is to say what you have done is right, or wrong?

Why can't I, as an individual, have absolute rights and wrongs? Gman said most of "if we look deep enough, there are absolute rights and wrongs" - he didn't say those absolutes are dictated by God, the Bible, society, or anything else. Somewhere in the thread we've been discussing how it's easier for people to rely on others for morals - so why insist absolutes must be dictated by others? For instance, I think rape is absolutely wrong. Period. That's not because anyone dictated it, it's because I think it's absolutely wrong. There's no way anyone can justify rape to me. It's an absolute I created myself and through which I judge others.

[Aidron]

Why can't I, as an individual, have absolute rights and wrongs? Gman said most of "if we look deep enough, there are absolute rights and wrongs" - he didn't say those absolutes are dictated by God, the Bible, society, or anything else. Somewhere in the thread we've been discussing how it's easier for people to rely on others for morals - so why insist absolutes must be dictated by others? For instance, I think rape is absolutely wrong. Period. That's not because anyone dictated it, it's because I think it's absolutely wrong. There's no way anyone can justify rape to me. It's an absolute I created myself and through which I judge others.


That's not really the point I am trying to make though. I agree, everyone is entitled to your own morals and opinions upon what is right and wrong.

Still, when it comes down to karmic debts, whom is to say who gets what? Since everyone's morals and ethics vary so much, how can there be any universal way of deciding who gets the bad and the good?

Could it be, that we determine it as individuals? Using your example of rape, if someone did rape you, you eould consider it an absolute wrong, period. We are all linked to an unconcious mind, therefore, would the pain you feel over this act, influence your rapist's karma? To clarify, perhaps karma is nothing more than magick, and that we each affect everyone else's karma through will alone, dictating what they have done to us as right or wrong.

[Rain Gnosis]

Still, when it comes down to karmic debts, whom is to say who gets what? Since everyone's morals and ethics vary so much, how can there be any universal way of deciding who gets the bad and the good?

Let's see if I can articulate this.. hm. Karma literally means action. Action. Reaction. Karm. Vipaka. If you throw a stone in a pond, the water ripples. There's no judge there. No one had to judge the stone or the pond or anything else, it just happened. Now if you were standing there you might think it was bad that the stone made the water ripple (maybe it scared the fish), and maybe you would see it in terms of "bad" and "good", but the universe didn't.

The problem with karma in my mind, as I said about the rede, is that it becomes a soundbyte. We are humans, and we mark things as "good" and "bad", etc. Karma gets observed through this lens of "good" and "bad", but the universe doesn't work that way. A lion doesn't think himself "bad" for killing a zebra, a cat doesn't think herself "good" for feeding her kittens. You might think a kitten is "good" but would a mouse think so?

The universe doesn't require judgment, but humans do. The universe doesn't respond to "good" and "bad" by rewarding or punishing, because that would require some entity to judge and mete these things out. To me, the universe is much more like that pond - it just naturally ebbs and flows and changes. The universe doesn't determine "you are bad" and "here is your punishment", it just ebbs and flows. No one has to. No one has to judge the stone for the pond to ripple - but it still ripples.

If I hex someone, I don't believe I'll be punished by some lord of karma or otherworldly entity. But if I hold onto anger and bitterness I attract anger and bitterness. And then since there's more of that nasty energy around, I feel nasty more often. Sooner or later I'm throwing boulders in the pond, know what I mean? It doesn't require judgment, it's just the natural ebb and flow of the universe. Karma. Vipaka.

Now I've rambled on forever and don't remember what the original topic was so I'll shut up :D

[Ben Trismegistus]

i don't believe there are any "moral gray areas". i believe if we look deep enough, there are absolute rights and wrongs. most of us just don't want to look that deeply if the possibility of having to correct ourselves exists. rationalisation usually wins out.
Well, I believe that there are SOME absolute rights and wrongs, but I do believe that there is plenty of gray area on certain topics.

The hackneyed example of this is: Would you steal medicine from a pharmacy to treat your dying family if you couldn't afford the medicine otherwise?

[Rain Gnosis]

The hackneyed example of this is: Would you steal medicine from a pharmacy to treat your dying family if you couldn't afford the medicine otherwise?

Is that necessarily a question of right and wrong or can it also be a question of whether you'd do something you consider wrong - for instance, I think stealing is absolutely wrong, but I'd still do it.

Maybe that's what GMan was getting at - it's easy to go "oh well it's not absolutely wrong" rather then "sure it's absolutely wrong, I'd still do it" because in the latter case you must admit you've done something wrong rather then rationalizing it :)

[Aidron]

Let's see if I can articulate this.. hm. Karma literally means action. Action. Reaction. Karm. Vipaka. If you throw a stone in a pond, the water ripples. There's no judge there. No one had to judge the stone or the pond or anything else, it just happened. Now if you were standing there you might think it was bad that the stone made the water ripple (maybe it scared the fish), and maybe you would see it in terms of "bad" and "good", but the universe didn't.

The problem with karma in my mind, as I said about the rede, is that it becomes a soundbyte. We are humans, and we mark things as "good" and "bad", etc. Karma gets observed through this lens of "good" and "bad", but the universe doesn't work that way. A lion doesn't think himself "bad" for killing a zebra, a cat doesn't think herself "good" for feeding her kittens. You might think a kitten is "good" but would a mouse think so?

The universe doesn't require judgment, but humans do. The universe doesn't respond to "good" and "bad" by rewarding or punishing, because that would require some entity to judge and mete these things out. To me, the universe is much more like that pond - it just naturally ebbs and flows and changes. The universe doesn't determine "you are bad" and "here is your punishment", it just ebbs and flows. No one has to. No one has to judge the stone for the pond to ripple - but it still ripples.

If I hex someone, I don't believe I'll be punished by some lord of karma or otherworldly entity. But if I hold onto anger and bitterness I attract anger and bitterness. And then since there's more of that nasty energy around, I feel nasty more often. Sooner or later I'm throwing boulders in the pond, know what I mean? It doesn't require judgment, it's just the natural ebb and flow of the universe. Karma. Vipaka.

Now I've rambled on forever and don't remember what the original topic was so I'll shut up :D


Well this is really more cause and effect, if you ask me, which I agree, is how the universe is more likely (I won't say it does, that would be very preachy of me) to work.

It's much like "We create our own heaven and hell." There is no almighty being who deals out the good and bad to us, that is all based upon human perception, which stems from, as I've said, ethics. We create our own bad karma and good karma, perhaps. Still, I would not truly label that as karma, but merely cause and effect.

Since we are all linked to an unconcious mind in my belief system, we affect one another's lives intentionally and unintentionally more than we know. It's not karma that is causing us to get a flat tire simply because we stole something, but perhaps it is the unconcious mind that, and even ourselves if we felt badly about it, that is causing ripples (as with your pond example) of negativity to flow through our life.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Maybe that's what GMan was getting at - it's easy to go "oh well it's not absolutely wrong" rather then "sure it's absolutely wrong, I'd still do it" because in the latter case you must admit you've done something wrong rather then rationalizing it :)
Perhaps.