The Wiccan Ordains

[Amethyst Rose]

This was passed on to me through a mailing list, and I'd like your opinions on it. Keep in mind that it is meant as Wiccan laws. And for those new to the craft -- DO NOT take these as absolute. There are many points here that are debatable and, IMO, just plain wrong. You must evaluate for yourself what is right and what is wrong.


The Ordains

On the Witch's personal standards and spirituality.
1. An ye harm none, do as ye will.
2. If you know the Rede is being broken, you must work strongly against it.
3. Watch, listen, and withhold judgment; in debate let your silences be long, your thoughts clear, and your words carefully chosen.
4. Never boast, or threaten, or speak evil of anyone.
5. Be truthful always, save when speaking would lead to a great harm.
6. Keep clean your body, your clothes, and your hours.
7. Should you take a task upon yourself, work hard and well to accomplish it properly and in good time. Always do the best you can.
8. Do not haggle over the price of your ritual tools.
9. Witches know that there are no absolute truths.
10. Witches understand that the universe consist of perfect balance; therefore, everything has an opposite.
11. Witches realize that for every action there is a reaction.
(The Law of Three.)
12. Witches know that we are all one, we are all connected.
13. Never lie to yourself for this is the ultimate act of deceit.
14. Witches understand that the ultimate act of spirituality is the act of positive creation through love.
15. Witches realize that the energy created through worship and rituals manifests as a circular stream of positive energy.
16. Witches should never close their minds to knowledge.
17. Never practice a magickal system that you don't fully understand.
18. Do not set a price on your magickal work.
19. A witch uses the magickal circle as a physical and noon- physical representation of a temple on the earth plane.
20. Witches use the energies around them to assist in raising power.
21. Witches uses common sense and do not share their mysteries with fools.
22. A Witch who knowingly breaks the Law (Ordains) will not be permitted to incarnate on Earth again.

Concerning the relationship of the Witch with others
1. Revere, honor, tend and heal the Earth
2. Of that which you grow, make or use, let as much as possible return to the Earth as an offering to Her, as a way to nourish the cycle of life.
3. Do not judge those of other paths, but offer them love and aid.
4. Do not steal from humor, animal or spirit; if you have needs you can't meet, turn to your community.
5. Offer friendship and hospitality to strangers who visit among you.
6. You shall never handfast or wed someone you don't love.
7. Honor the relationships and commitments of others, and don't couple together if it will cause harm to another.
8. Raise your children with kindness, feed, clothe, and house them as well as you can. Show them love and affection, teach them strength and wisdom.
9. Deal fairly and honestly in all your transactions with others, following the letter and spirit of any contract you agree.

Concerning the relationship within the Craft
1. Witches do not point out the identity ofother witches to the general public or give addresses, or anything else that can betray any of us.
2. Do nothing that will endanger anyone in the Craft, or which will bring them into conflict with the law of the land or any of your persecutors.
3. Do not gossip or speak evil of other witches.
4. Never lie to any of the Wicca.
5. Never use your magickal skills for show, pride or vainglory.
6. Keep within your Book of Shadows a record of your own rites and learnings.
7. Do not lend your Book of Shadows to anyone. You may allow someone to copy it though.
8. Property owned by Crafters should be guarded both mundanely and spiritually by the witch.
9. Never use your personal power for evil purposes or attacks. If someone attacks, you can defend yourself by asking the Goddess for justice.
10. Magickal bindings can cost you dearly. Learn to banish negativity instead.
11. Know that thoughts are things; and what you create in thought, may manifest in reality.
12. A Witch's power grows in direct relation with his or her level of wisdom.
13. As long as you are acting in accordance with a positive belief system, don't worry what others think of you and say about it.
14. Injuries, accidents, sickness, and poverty are often manifestations of low self-esteem or negative programming, not hexes.
15. Magick use should be viewed as sacred.
16. Witches may teach others about the Craft if the place if safe, the teacher is knowledgeable, the student is willing, and the information is available publicly or is not secret to the organization to which s/he belongs.
17. Never do anything to disgrace the Goddess and the Craft.

Sources: Amber K's Covencraft, Lady Galadriel's The New Wiccan Book of the Law, and Silver RavenWolf's To Light a Sacred Flame.

[loopy]

I'm not Wiccan, but I have questions/comments anyhow. :) They're genuine questions; I'm not just trying to find fault with this or anything.


2. If you know the Rede is being broken, you must work strongly against it.

Work strongly against what? :confused:


8. Do not haggle over the price of your ritual tools.

Why not? If you can save some money... besides, haggling is fun. :)


21. Witches uses common sense and do not share their mysteries with fools.

Well, not on purpose, I'm sure. ;)


22. A Witch who knowingly breaks the Law (Ordains) will not be permitted to incarnate on Earth again.

Huh? Is that true?


2. Do nothing that will endanger anyone in the Craft, or which will bring them into conflict with the law of the land or any of your persecutors.

What if they deserve it? I mean, what if a member of the Craft was breaking the law, and you felt morally obligated to tell the police, and it would probably shed a bad light on witchcraft if it was publicized? Does that count?


7. Do not lend your Book of Shadows to anyone. You may allow someone to copy it though.

What's the difference?

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by loopy
I'm not Wiccan, but I have questions/comments anyhow. :) They're genuine questions; I'm not just trying to find fault with this or anything.

Don't worry about it!! The whole point of my posting it was so people DO find fault with it. Your answer was exactly the response I was looking for :).


2. If you know the Rede is being broken, you must work strongly against it.

Work strongly against what?


This one means that you must work to prevent the rede from being broken.


22. A Witch who knowingly breaks the Law (Ordains) will not be permitted to incarnate on Earth again.

Huh? Is that true?


This is the one that I have the most problem with. I mean, where would they be incarnated?? Sounds too much like a "you'll go to hell" kinda statement to me. Does anyone out there believe this??


2. Do nothing that will endanger anyone in the Craft, or which will bring them into conflict with the law of the land or any of your persecutors.

What if they deserve it? I mean, what if a member of the Craft was breaking the law, and you felt morally obligated to tell the police, and it would probably shed a bad light on witchcraft if it was publicized? Does that count?

I agree with you 100% on this one.


7. Do not lend your Book of Shadows to anyone. You may allow someone to copy it though.

What's the difference?


This seems the best way to ensure that someone doesn't steal or lose your BoS....

[eaglewolf]

Personally, I find this to be insulting, presumptive and arguable at best...

...and I am Wiccan.

~ew

[Mariposa De La Luna]

Well if you have all these rules, why think for yourself? :rolleyes:
It sounds like someone with a control complex.

[Revelation]

I'm with you, EW. I found this list to be immature, overly self righteous, and lacking in any real contribution to the faith.

[Amethyst Rose]

There are a lot of the rules, however, that strike me as being plain old common sense. Such as "Revere, honor, tend and heal the Earth"
Sooo... they're not ALL bad.... ;) There are some that are just too "white light" and "fluffy bunny" for me...and others that are just plain wrong.... but every cloud has a silver lining, right?? (hence the few that make sense).
What ticks me off, is that new people to the craft don't know what is right or wrong yet, for the most part. What do things like this do to their beliefs?

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
What do things like this do to their beliefs?


It shrouds them in a veil of confusion... in my opinion, of course.

~ew

[loopy]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


It shrouds them in a veil of confusion... in my opinion, of course.

~ew

Definitely. Confused the begeezus out of me.

[Fawn]

Here's a suggestion if so many eople do not like those that are written above then why not write your own aqnd post them?:)

[Wyrdsister]

I found these rather confusing as well. Some of the "laws" falls out of the Rede, IMHO, and some of it just seems to be extra fluff used to make the author sound more impressive and learned than they are.

11. Witches realize that for every action there is a reaction
Yeah, well so did Newton. ;)



Sources: Amber K's Covencraft, Lady Galadriel's The New Wiccan Book of the Law, and Silver RavenWolf's To Light a Sacred Flame.

Does this ring true to anyone? Having not read any of these books, I'd like to know if the "Ordains" have been listed as such in these quoted sources. Also, has anyone heard witch law referred to as "ordains" before? New one to me...

Wyrdsister

[Amethyst Rose]

I have Amber K's "Coven Craft" and from pages 357-359 she has a list of 42 ordains, some of which are *exactly* those which were in the lists I posted. Number's 1-8 in the personal standards are from her book, as well as numbers 1-9 for relationships with others and numbers 1,3,5,6 and 17 of within the craft. She also has ordains for "Within the Coven."

[rain]

"An ye harm none, do as ye will".

This is the only rule that unites all wiccans. And apart from bearing in mind that whatever is done can be returned thrice, there are no other rules.
The whole point of wicca is that it is a personal spritual path, always evolving, and not stuck in a time warp with a set of outdated rules and regulations like some religions.
Therefore whoever wrote all those rules has IMO no idea of what wicca is about, and my advice would be to read them with a pinch of salt!!

Blessed Be
rain

[Wyrdsister]

Originally posted by rain
"An ye harm none, do as ye will".

This is the only rule that unites all wiccans. And apart from bearing in mind that whatever is done can be returned thrice, there are no other rules.
The whole point of wicca is that it is a personal spritual path, always evolving, and not stuck in a time warp with a set of outdated rules and regulations like some religions.
Therefore whoever wrote all those rules has IMO no idea of what wicca is about, and my advice would be to read them with a pinch of salt!!

Blessed Be
rain
Hear, hear!! :D :) Well put, my friend!

Wyrdsister

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by rain
"An ye harm none, do as ye will".

This is the only rule that unites all wiccans. And apart from bearing in mind that whatever is done can be returned thrice, there are no other rules.


Sorry, but I have to disagree...

...granted, I have only been a Wiccan for a little over 22 years, and I am sure there are many out there who have been living Wicca for only a few years who know more about being a Wiccan than I do... but this is in my experience, however unenlightened.

These "laws" have not been adopted by all Wiccans, only certain traditions, taught mostly by those who were lucky enough to sign a cushy book deal.

~ew

[Kaylara]

I tend to agree with EW. I am more pagan than wiccan at this point because there are many things within Wicca that I do not agree with. I think that with these Ordains you really have to look at the source of them.

Kaylara

[Wyrdsister]

I'm curious then ... actually, perhaps this will start a brand new thread. :) What would define a tradition or a set of beliefs as "Wiccan?" I'm sure we would all (or mostly all) agree that not all Pagans are Wiccan. But how do you tell a Wiccan from another Pagan?

Perhaps this could be a "what are the core beliefs of wicca" thread? I don't know. I'm interested in any and all feedback. :)

Wyrdsister
ever the newbie :D

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Wyrdsister
Also, has anyone heard witch law referred to as "ordains" before? New one to me...

Wyrdsister


Be this Ardaned!

They were called Adanes before they wer called Ordaines. Matter of language.

[Mairwen]

[I'm only saying this ONCE: This is a JOKE]

THE LAW

The Law was made and ardane about a week from last Wednesday. The Law was made for the Wiccca, in order that they should develop a nice longhand style from copying it.

The Wiccca should give due worship to the Godz, presuming they believe the Godz exist and aren't just metaphors; and obey Their Will, which the HPS of the Coven will make up as she goes along, for it was made for the purpose of ego?tripping and wild parties. The worship of the Wiccca is good for the owners of Occult Supply Stores, for the owners of Occult Supply Stores love the money of the Wiccca.

As a man loveth a woman using the missionary position, so the Wiccca should shaft their fellows and other total strangers frequently. And it is necessary that the Magick Circle which is the principal difference between a Wicccan rite and a frat party be cast and all Wiccca properly purified to enter it so they can drink five gallons of Ripple each and not throw up.

The HPS shall r/u/i/n/ rule her coven as the local representative of the Goddess, and choose whomever she is sleeping with this week to be her HP...or her Maiden.

And remember that the Wiccca would have it that The God Himself kissed her feet and gave up the position of Ringmaster to her because of her arbitrariness and autocracy, her spite and unreason, her mysteriousness and ignorance: so the HP is expected to go as far away as possible and not even show up for Sabbats.

It is the greatest virtue of a HPS that she turn as many of her
Covenors into closet Xtians as possible, for the true HPS realizes that anyone with the sense Goddess gave a goose is not going to stick around without having a death wish.

* * * * *

In the Olden Days when Wiccca extended far, we were free and had reservations in all the best restaurants. But these days, we eat at McDonald's.

SO BE IT ARDANE, that none but the Wiccca shall ever be invited to dinner, for people who ignore us are many, and if they ever found out what we are really up to, they would giggle.

SO BE IT ARDANE, that no Coven shall know where the next Coven bide, nor who its member be, save anybody who looks in Circle Newsletter and the hit team we send out to sanction them.

SO BE IT ARDANE, that no one shall tell anyone anything, least of all thy fellows in the Craft, for fear one of you will learn something; because as it is truly writ: Gerald wrote it, I believe it, that settles it.

And if any break these Laws, they will have to start their own Tradition and make up their own Grandmother.

Let each HPS govern her Coven as she damn' well please, riding rough?shod over the Covenors as long as they will stand for it.
But it must be recognized that sooner or later they will get mad and stop bringing the Ripple to Coven meetings. When this happens, it hath ever been the Old Law that the HPS will Elevate them to the Third Degree and kick them out, and promise them the rest of the Book...someday.

Anyone of any degree or none may found a Coven, provided they think they can get away with it and can create a convincing Grandmother.

They may raid other Covens for members as long as no one knows where to find them.

But splitting the Coven oft means new opportunities for evading the consequences of your actions, so the wise HPS will think of it first.


* * * * *

If you should keep a Black Book, let it be in your own hand of write, except for the parts you xerox out of Lady Sheba. Or better yet, tell everybody they're not of a high enough degree to see it.

Proclaim your Wicccahood loudly, and often; you may be able to do a brisk trade in spells, psychic fairs, and talk shows. If nobody believs you, try holding a public skyclad circle. If all else fails, hire a press agent and advertise in the National Inquirer. If they try to make you talk of the Brotherhood, lay it on with a trowel. Ancient Atlantis is always good for a five?minute spot on the six o' clock news. Not all interviewers are bad; some may even flash your business address on the screen for a few seconds.

* * * * *

To avoid discovery, let your working tools be ordinary stuff such as any may have around the house: AR?15's, Patton Tanks, Howitzers (let's see how far we can stretch that First Amendment, gang!). Have no names or signs on anuything, and remove the ones they came with, as otherwise this can lead to a charge of receiving stolen property.

Let the Pentacles be made of wax unless something else is more convenient.

Have no sword, unless you are in the SCA or a collector of WWII memorabilia.

Write the names and signs on a gummed label so that it can be peeled off immediately afterwards; remember that not guilty by reason of insanity is not a valid defense in cases of this kind.

Ever remember that you are the Hidden Children of the Goddess; when you can take time out from Karma Dumping Runs, Psychic Vendettas, Banishing each other from the Coven and discussing how much fun it would be to persecute the Xtians, remember never to do anything to disgrace Her. Or Them, if that's possible.


* * * * *

In the Olden Days, when we had Power, we could use the Art against any who ill?treated us; but these days a whispering campaign works better. Remember always that there are a lot of flaky people out there, and for this reason it is best to give a fake name and a Post Office Box address. Someone is always going to blame you for something.

SO BE IT ARDANE: HARM NONE, or at least have a good alibi. Never break this law, or people who get burned along with you will come after you with baseball bats, and you will never be able to score any decent hash again.

Any HPS who does something you don't like you can walk out on, but be sure to clout the Coven Book on the way to the door and set up in business for yourself (Learn Witchcraft From The Experts!).

Always accept money for use of the Art, but keep an eye on the Gypsy Laws. In some states, Barter works better. All may use the Art for their own advantage; remember, quick and dirty works best, and you can lay off Karma on the Coven. If that doesn't work, try dead cats in the mailbox.

* * * * *

'Tis the Old Law and most important of all the Laws that no one may do anything that will endanger any of the Craft. Unless there's money in it, or it's to someone you think deserves it, and anyway, "endanger" is in the eye of the beholder.

In any dispute between the Wiccca, no one may invoke any Law but that of the Craft. However, you can break into your opponent's home and mess up his stuff.. after all, it says right here they can't go to the Police.

Never bargain or haggle when you buy by the Art; most Occult Store owners will just throw you out and everyone else will think you're a nut.

* * * * *

It is ever the way with men and with women that they are ruled by their glands. At any moment your HPS may run off and become a Rosicrucian. And the way of Resignation is this: if she doesn't answer her phone for two weeks and is never home when you drive by, you can declare her outcast from the Coven and take it over yourself, with as many as will have you. But if she comes back she will probably take of the Coven again, or start another one in the same building and declare you Invalid, and there's not much you can do about it. Learn to live with anxiety. Get everything in writing.


* * * * *
It hath been found that two people sitting around with a bottle of Chianti discussing Atlantean Grandmothers will become fond of each other, if only because of the Stockholm Syndrome. Therefore, let it be resolved that a human being shall be taught in the Craft only by another human being, and screw the middle?class morality of the nineteen?fifties.

* * * * *
And the Curses of the Mighty Ones be on all who try to take this seriously, or the Craft seriously, or the Wiccca seriously. Caveat Lector, and May The Force Be With You!

[loopy]

SO BE IT ARDANE, that none but the Wiccca shall ever be invited to dinner, for people who ignore us are many, and if they ever found out what we are really up to, they would giggle.

That one's my favorite. :D

LMAO!!!! Wherever didja find such a thing? :D:D

[Mairwen]

Honestly, I can't remember!

Here's one for you:

Look upon my works, all Ye Mighty, and giggle!

[loopy]

Hee! It's that darn word: giggle. How can a person NOT giggle at the word giggle?

Clicking and saving. :D

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


Sorry, but I have to disagree...

These "laws" have not been adopted by all Wiccans, only certain traditions, taught mostly by those who were lucky enough to sign a cushy book deal.


I agree, ew....

Most BTWs (Britt Trad) do not see the rede as a primary "rule". If they acknowledge it at all, it is only as a guideline. For some, it's just a pretty poem.
This is exactly why I've always wondered just what makes a Wiccan, wiccan, in the first place. It's not the rede, cuz not all follow it, it's not the three fold law, cuz different trads believe different things (2x, 3x, 7x, 10x, etc.). It's not the worship of nature, cuz most (if not all), pagans do that.
So, what is it???

[eaglewolf]

Disclaimer: This post is not directed to anyone in particular... it is simply directed...




Originally posted by Wyrdsister
Perhaps this could be a "what are the core beliefs of wicca" thread? I don't know. I'm interested in any and all feedback. :)


I used to think this was a brilliant idea... personally, these days, I think the less I share about my traditional views the better.

I have spoken with many Pagan groups, as well as many Wiccan groups. Over the years I have come to a simple conclusion... in the realm of Wicca, there's "us" and there is "them."

Though I am often disturbed by views of Wicca, I realize there is little I can do to effect change. I will be who I am, and they will be who they are... period.

In my opinion, 98% of the information you find in books or on websites is garbage, being shared by people who do not nor may never have had a clue about what Wicca is. A higher percentage of those "Wiccans" are simply passing on information learned from this very kind of people... clueless.

I created my website originally to simply show that we are people too. Not to share our secrets or our way, not to open our BoS to the public. We do not share spells, detailed information concerning spell crafting, or even the religious days we honor let alone how we honor them, etc. etc. etc.

I may have had some wild idea to share some of this information but have now decided... "What the hell was I thinking!?!"

We do not take on apprentices, nor take "newbies" under our wing, nor do we even consider teaching anyone who we feel is not ready to learn. The internet is not an avenue where we could possibly discern whether someone is "ready" or not, by our standards... *shudder* YES, we do have standards by which we live... what a novel thought.

Is this a "high and mighty" attitude? Perhaps... to you... but this is why the internet is the worst possible place for traditionalists like myself to teach others, it is impossible for me to "know" any of you. Wicca is not a fad, it is not a game, it is not all "love and light" nor "do what ye will." It is not all fluff and definately not without integrety or discipline, which the internet and many of its users strongly lacks.

I have said this a thousand times if I have said it once. What we are may not be right for you, but it is who we are regardless. If it is not right for you, find your own path, don't crap on mine until it fits your needs.

Does the fact that I am unwilling to share my knowledge of the craft make me a stuck up, snotty, better-than-you traditionalist? Absolutely! If someone doesn't like it, hit the friggin back button. That is the way I was taught, that is the way I will remain... I will leave the turning of my "religion" into a complete joke to others.

May You also Live True

~ew

[Revelation]

Such extreme secrecy is, I believe, one of Wicca's most weakening features.

There is certainly soemthing to be said for secrecy and privacy. The rituals, magical teachings, and oaths within various traditions have reason to be kept private. This I understand and even laud. As someone intimately connected with those initiated into the Mystery Tradition which gave structure and depth to the religion of Wicca, ie, the Golden Dawn, I understand that secrecy and privacy are necessary tools for keeping information out of the "wrong hands", as it were.

Yet at the same time, Wiccans parade around talking about how Wicca is not all about magic and spellcraft, Wicca and witchcraft are not necessarily the sme thing, and yet they don't talk about the philosophies and theologies that make Wicca what it is. Should philosophy and theology be kept secret along with the rituals and magical practices? Should a dedicated seeker be denied access to spiritual "truths" that have nothing to do with magic?

I dont think so.

There is a difference between Wicca's practices and Wicca's beliefs. Yet nobody seems to want to talk abotu the latter. Why is that? BEcause nobody has taken the time to flesh out what they are? BEcuase even those who claim to be Elders on the path haven't the faintest idea what they're talking ahotu when it comes to ethics and how the universe operates? I don't know, but it surely sounds circumspect to me. why is there no information about the fundamental beliefs of this religion?

Is this a religion or a magical order? There *is* a difference. MAke up your mind.

Wicca is a mystical traiditon, certainly, and it is a magical system. However, it purports to be a religion. Religion is not about secrecy--religion is about revelation and communion with the Divine. How one goes about doing that, how one achieves revelation shouldnt be kept a secret. There is no good reason for doing so. THere is never a good reason for prohibitting another access to the Divine light. Never. If Wicca wants to be a mature religion, if it really wants to grow and expand and be something worth claiming and holding onto into the future, it needs to let go of its childish attachment to secret doctrine and embrace the idea of unfolding. the "holier than thou" BS will do nothing to earn Wicca respect among other religions. As long as WIcca continues the path that its on, it will never earn its place within libraries as "religion". It will forever be stuck in the humiliating category of "new age" crap.

[eaglewolf]

Who wants respect from other religions, who wants it to be a mature religion? Hell, I never wanted it to even become a "religion" in the first place. I think religion is pointless...

...it should have never been afforded the opportunity to become "new age crap."

Talk about Wicca as a "proven" religion is better spent on someone besides me...

From my point of view, we shouldn't even be having this conversation... but we are, so here I am.

You speak about Wicca for what it has become, something which I cannot deny it has become... but something which I choose not to defend, nor expound upon.

Spirituality is for us, as individuals... personally, I don't care how others find spiritual "truths" if there is such a thing. How could my beliefs possibly help anyone else? What is the point of sharing those beliefs with others, if not simply to defend myself. Hell, I don't need to defend myself.

I don't need to defend my "religion" either... this doesn't mean I am without opinion. This doesn't mean I will refrain from ranting about it from time to time.

~ew

[Revelation]

How
could my beliefs possibly help anyone else? What is the point of sharing those beliefs with others, if not simply to defend
myself. Hell, I don't need to defend myself.

Oh, Eaglewolf....if you truly believe this...if this is truly what's in your heart...

that totally sucks.

Everyone has internlized beliefs that cn prove beneficial to another person. If no one shared their views with the world, the world could not change, and in turn the world could not change us. Human beings require that kind of interaction. WE need to be able to share our beliefs, because *yes*, your beliefs do make a difference. Your beliefs might make someone see God in an entirely new way, giving them the light they need to reach out and cress the Divine. Yes, your thoughts, feeling, and your faith are valuable, not only toyourself, but tothers as well.

This is the beauty of WIcca as religion. We havne't taken the time to edpound about its theology, or its philosophy. Its poetry is still blossoming, and we can all be part of that unfolding. There's not reason to harbor so much animosity towards what it has become, because it hasn't "become" yet. WIcca is still very much "becoming"! That's where individuals make such a big difference right now. Wicca is enduring growing pains, and because of this, becuase it is so young nd so fresh, eacha nd every one of us has the oppotunity to shape what WIcca becomes, and to influence its movement into the future.

You can still shape your religion, Ew. HAve faith.

[eaglewolf]

LMAO!

Boy, if I had a nickle for each time I heard that line of reasoning...

...get a grip.

We can not agree on this, nor even agree to disagree... our views of what Wicca is and what spirituality is are in total conflict. That is the whole point...

On an aside... faith is overrated.

~ew

[mol]

"Religion. One set of Rules. One set of standards. Wait....we have to do it like this...It has to be done like that. This is how it was...how it will be...."

I just cant take that.

Its all very much personal. Everyone. Every person is different...and with them...so are their Path's. What we choose to share and not to share...is also personal.

As an aside:

I dont have Faith.

What I have inside of me...I Know. I dont need Faith to Know.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
these days, I think the less I share about my traditional views the better.

I feel that way sometimes, myself, EW. The Gwyddoniad is so far outside the "mainstream" that people look at comments and go, "huh?!" from lack of understanding. I admit freely that I am a Wiccan Illiterate ~ though, I must admit I've learned a lot because of this board. :D I would like to think that the members of this Community learn that Pagan doesn't = Wiccan.


in the realm of Wicca, there's "us" and there is "them."

I hear that.


A higher percentage of those "Wiccans" are simply passing on information learned from this very kind of people... clueless.

Very good point. Do a websearch on Wicca. You will pull up carbon copies of the same website/information over and over and over. *ugh* When I built the website for The Gwyddonic Order, I worked hard not to put up the same information posted on the Trefn Gwyddoniad (our parent group) site. I mean, what would that serve?


We do not share spells, detailed information concerning spell crafting, or even the religious days we honor let alone how we honor them, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, we have certain Oath-bound materials, too. People hate finding that out. "But why can't you just give me the information? I won't tell anybody!" Sure! People are usually sorely disappointed to find out that we don't do spells. Seems that's all most people are looking for. To each his own, I suppose.


We do not take on apprentices, nor take "newbies" under our wing, nor do we even consider teaching anyone who we feel is not ready to learn.

Well, we do take on Seekers, but we dont' consider people who don't have some kind of prior background experience in the Craft. We won't take a Newbie.


Wicca is not a fad, it is not a game, it is not all "love and light" nor "do what ye will." It is not all fluff and definately not without integrety or discipline, which the internet and many of its users strongly lacks.

AMEN! You go, EW!


What we are may not be right for you, but it is who we are regardless. If it is not right for you, find your own path, don't crap on mine until it fits your needs.

I left a Traditionalists club at Yahoo! Clubs over the weekend because of their elitists attitudes. I'd been there since the beginning of the club, but you know how "bad seeds" always find a home? I left because a very small handful of the membership (about three) were making my time there a living hell. I wasn't a Traditionalist Wiccan, therefore I didn't belong and all that other crap. The owner begged me to stay, but I couldn't deal with my beliefs and principles being crapped on everytime I posted something. :(

My point is, we all have different beliefs ~ even people in the same Tradition aren't going to see eye-to-eye. Spirituality and Religion is very Individual. Nobody gave any one of us the right to judge any of the rest of us. So why do people do that? It's wrong ~ and goes against every Pagan principle and Christian principle I've ever seen.


I will leave the turning of my "religion" into a complete joke to others.

Yup. We Gwyddons have a Craft Sister doing that quite well on her own. *sigh*

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Spirituality is for us, as individuals... personally, I don't care how others find spiritual "truths" if there is such a thing.

In the Gwyddoniad, we have a saying that the individual's Path is also Sacred. I like that! :D

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by mol
"I dont have Faith.
What I have inside of me...I Know. I dont need Faith to Know.

Thank you Mol.

"Believe NOTHING! Either you KNOW or you don't!"

[Amethyst Rose]

I think that people who consider themselves as Wiccan have to realize that there is two different types of Wicca. It's like ew said... there's us and them. The rabid comercialism of Wicca has created two groups..... traditionalists and eclectics.

It is the eclectic traditions (this includes Celtic, fairy, dianic, as well as various combinations), that are constantly growing and evolving. However, this growth and "in your faceness".... the "tell the world what wicca is" and "let anyone who wants to learn, learn" attitude is, in my opinion, cheapening Wicca. It has made it into a new age fad, a white light, fluffy bunny, fix all my problems *thing* to do.
And the thing is, *I* consider myself an Eclectic Wiccan. This is MY religion that I have seen go down into these sickeningly sweet spiral. It makes me angry to see how it has become so nice and friendly and open to any blow joe who wants a love spell.

It is the traditionalists (Gardnerians, Alexandrians, Georgians, Starkindler, other BTWs, and other purely initiary -- not necessarily wiccan -- trads.), who have it right, in my opinion. Their beliefs and traditions remain pure and untouched and they know that it will always be that way. That is the reason I have seeked out a new tradition -- one that still has reverence for its beliefs and won't let their beliefs be comprimised by comercialism.

There is sanctity in tradition. Announcing to the world "Here we are! This is what we do! And you can do it to!" just takes it all away.....

This is, of course.... only my opinion.

[Kaylara]

~Amethyst~

*clapping* It makes me sad to think about crap like this... I have worked my ass off to get where I am... An uninitiated solitary eclectic pagan, who gets looked down upon by those who have traditions because I am a "newbie". I am not a white light, and pentacles, *poof* Sabrina wannabe! I have no tradition, and to some people that's a bad thing... Along the same line, I respect those people who do have a tradition, and want to keep out the chaff that has been coming in. If I were going to train someone in my ways (let's pretend I have a tradition, and am in a position to let new people in.) would I really want someone who is going to give up on me in a few weeks or months. Do I want to spend my energy on someone who isn't going to do the work? NO! HELL NO! I can see where the traditionalists are coming from... I know what it feels like to put in SO MUCH WORK for something, only to have it blow up in your face, as though it didn't mean anything... So, I can understand why I am looked down on, because so many people are not serious about this, and why would someone want to take the chance that I will be serious or not...

I'll tell you, I tried just to start a discussion group around here for young pagans. The first person who responded, tried to take the whole project over, belittled me because I am a girl, and had no idea what he was doing. Has anyone heard of a learned pagan individual who has not done any kind of energy work??? After that things got worse. We had meetings... Everyone would say they were coming, no one would show up except me and Dellit. It was not worth the crap...

It sucks... But nature will balance this... People who are not serious will leave very soon after realizing the kind of work you have to put in... This is not an easy way out of religion....

Just my two cents...
Kaylara

[mol]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
I think that people who consider themselves as Wiccan have to realize that there is two different types of Wicca. It's like ew said... there's us and them. The rabid comercialism of Wicca has created two groups..... traditionalists and eclectics.

Actually...to go a little deeper...the US and THEM viewpoint is a little strong as well.

There is You and Everyone else.

If you Know in your heart that you are Wiccan. Then you are. It makes no difference what Everyone else...thinks. Because other people can Speculate (Think) about what is Inside of You. But only YOU KNOW.

[Wyrdsister]

Whoa, whoa, hold on! *waves arms frantically to get everyone's attention*

It wasn't my intention to start any sort of mudslinging in here!8O I was just looking for more information, from everyone's personal perspectives, on what is/is not Wicca. I completely realize that no one was going to have the same or even similar opinions or traditions or whatever. I was really just asking for personal education purposes.

I understand from where your coming, ew, when you mentioned "the less you say (about your views), the better." But I'm actually interested in what you have to say! I'm interested in what everyone has to say!

So how about this: if you have a view on what Wicca is/isn't/isn't yet/should be, then would you - out of the kindness of your pagan hearts - send me a personal message about it? I am promising here and now NOT to judge you or to start up a debate about it. I am only interested in differing opinions here, not in arriving at some sort of concensus. The only return messages you will recieve from me will be questions on the details of your opinions (should you wish to offer them), NOT about your opinions themselves.

Does this sound fair? Does this sound like something you would do - again, out of the kindness of your pagan :heartthro - for someone who is a genuine spiritual seeker? If you think Wicca is nothing but the stuff of comercialism, tell me. If you think that only those of a certain lineage should be privelaged to recieve any information about Wicca and I should take a hike, tell me. If you think Wicca should be promoted to everyone as a valid religion, tell me!! I want to know what YOU (yes, YOU *taps on your chest*) think!!

Am I trying to shape my own views about Wicca? Sure, I am. Am I looking for a definition of Wicca to completely shape my beliefs around? Absolutely not. I just want to be fortunate enough to have people do me the wonderful service of sharing a bit of their views and their beliefs with me. I'm not looking for spells or secrets or oaths: I would NEVER ask that of anyone. I want to know your feelings and beliefs of what you believe Wicca to be.

Whew! *wipes brow* How's that for sincere encouragement? :D

I would like to hear from each and everyone of you, if you feel you can be so kind. I don't care if all you have to say is "Wicca-schmicca," I still would like to hear from you.

Blessed Be, and Go in Peace,

Wyrdsister
(who thinks "wicca-schmicca" is hard to say 10x fast...)

[Kaylara]

I have one word for you...


POOKA!

This is a word that I use to describe just about anything, from saying hello, I'm happy, I'm pissed, I just slammed my finger in a drawer, etc. I think that is just about how I feel about things... I feel:

Pooka!

Blessings!

Kaylara

[Kaylara]

BTW... I am in a Erisian kind of mood today, so please excuse my silliness!

Kaylara

[Wyrdsister]

HAHAHAHA!! :D :D Thanks, Kaylara!! POOKA!! right back at ya!

:)

Wyrdsister

[rain]

Merry Meet Eaglewolf,

I'm a bit confused as to what you are disagreeing on and what you are implying, but then I claim to be a witch "wise" in the ways of the earth and not as in "clever"!! LOL

However I stand by my original reply, and truly believe that wicca as a philosophy and way of life should be a completely personal experience. Certain factors have been handed down through the generations and are still valid in this century, but we have to move with the times whist maintaining our integrity as caretakers of the planet.

Just for information, I am a hereditory witch, I have traced my lineage back 300 years so far. Past ancestors have been midwives and healers whilst maintaining close contact to the land as farmers.

Brightest Blessings
rain

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by rain
However I stand by my original reply, and truly believe that wicca as a philosophy and way of life should be a completely personal experience...

Well, essentially, that is exactly what I am saying...

...the experience to me is something different than it is to others. That is to be expected, and it should be.

I am not looking down on anyone, nor am I being elitist... I am simply stating my point of view. Whether I agree with everyone else is completely irrelevant. I won't say who can become what, only what I will contribute to that cause...

I have not once stated that anyone is undeserving of the title "Wiccan." I have simply stated I feel there are those who may not be worthy, "from my point of view." My point of view is nothing to others, only to me. It controls my actions and no one elses. Sure, people may take what I have to say to heart, but that hardly qualifies as my control over them... they are in control.

I cannot keep anyone from persuing their goals, and I will not. It is not my place to say what you are or aren't, that is up to you. Do I have to agree? No. Do I have to like it? No. Does it really matter to anyone but me? No.

~ew

[Mairwen]

This is the best post I've seen anywhere in months! Go EW! :D

[Wyrdsister]

After that empationed post of mine, I have officially received no - i.e. None, zero, zip, ziltch, nadda - absolutely NO private messages as a result.

*sigh*

Does no one have opinions anymore? Or am I just simply unworthy? :(

;) The invitation's still open...

Wyrdsister