Okay...debate time (?)

[KathrynWingedLioness]

[FONT=Garamond]

MM All...

Just to let you all know:Here at MysticWicks I am a
:RuNew:

However, not that much of a newbie to Wicca/Paganism...yet there is a question that looms sharply in my mind regarding the celebration of Samhain...some people (such as my boyfriend), say it is celebrated on Nov. 1st...other Pagan types I've met go ahead and celebrate it on the usual day of the 31st...but then the first book on Wicca I ever bought (Silver R-W's "To Ride a Silver Broomstick") says Samhain was traditionally celebrated on Nov. 7th...what gives?!!! :hairraise :whatgives

Now...don't get me wrong...I am ever the Matrix-type rebel (why else would I be a Pagan other than to live out of the mainstream as a freedom-loving LightBeing?)...but there is that traditionalist part of me that wants to know the exact date (or as exact as possible)...but I would also guess that someone here will say something to the effect of: "It all depends on the tradition you follow." (seems to be the pat answer I get to questions like these)

So...am I wrong in "seeking the Oracle" and do I need to follow what feels best, or is there an actual pre-scribed date?

Anyway...looking to hear from you...

BB,
Kathryn WingedLioness ^.^

(Incidentally...my honey's b-day is on Hallowe'en...heheheh) :smoochypo

[Chibi-Fallon]

My guess it the actual date has something to do with the lunar cycles or something crazy like that (the same way they figure out the solstice and stuff), but I'm just pulling that outta my a$$ I have no real idea. :shhhh:
It probably also has a lot to do with the culture, and since we're not ancient Celts, nor Romans, or whathave you and there aren't really any of them left. I'd just do it on whatever day you connect the most with (31st if you're a Halloweenie type, 1st if you're more Day of the Dead/All Soul's Day happy).

[*GrumpButt*]

Well i am not sure myself... I have read a couple of diff days, I was wondering about hat myself tonight... lol

Well anyway, welcome! Glad to have you here!

[Sylvan]

Okay. Some would say it is celebrated on November 1. And others would say that holidays start at sundown on the day before, thus anytime after sundown on Oct 31.
Many would just simplify and say Oct 31.
And then you have the really off dates that are nowhere near close to that. You get these dates when you calculate the day that falls exactly between the Fall Equinox and the Winter Solstice. Because the equinoxes and solstices change every year, so would the date of Samhain.
I'm not in this last group, so I have no clue what day it would be, myself....

[Nymph]

Let's not forget that there are still Modern Celts though! ;)

I believe the date was figured out by going between the Fall Equinox and Winter Solstice, like Kurgarra said. But most people I know begin it on sundown Oct. 31 and go until the next sundown. :)

[Cev'aq]

The mid-date between the fall equinox and winter solstice seems to make the most sense, but for simplicity's sake, I just celebrate on Halloween :lol:

[FeatherGoblinglimmer]

I know some people that celebrate the holidays for three or so days. I think myself that Samhain is oct 31st and Nov 1st. Yule is 21st to the 25th. Not sure on how i stand on the others. As i am only starting to celebrating the Pagan holidays rather than the commercialised ones. I havn't felt i was ready to celebrate them fully pagan till now.:)

[Xentor]

There are official pagan holidays?

[Kadynas]

The reason for so many different dates is due to astronomy and calendar systems... all the solstices and equinoxes start a season, and also start off an astrological sign... for ex: The Sun moves into Aries sometime on Mar. 20 (not the same time every year either) and this is usually considered the First Day of Spring by most calendars. The other Sabbats were known by some as "cross-quarters" on the Wheel of the Year and were celebrated about halfway in-between an equinox and solstice... Astrologically this makes Samhain the day that the Sun goes into 15 degress of Scorpio, halfway between Mabon/Start of Libra and Yule/Start of Capricorn. Usually this is on the 7th or 8th of November... :)

[FeatherGoblinglimmer]

There are official pagan holidays?Not officially....:) But instead of celebrating their xtian/ commercial meanings like xmas and halloween, I shall be celebrating them as Samhain, Yule, Beltaine, and the rest, as they correspond to the Lord and Lady and the cycle of the Earth.

[voodoozebra]

[QUOTE=Kadynas]The reason for so many different dates is due to astronomy and calendar systems... [QUOTE]

I agree with Kadynas in this. It would depend on the calendar of the culture where the particular holiday started. Pick the date closest to whatever tradition you follow the closest.

[WynterWynd]

I celebrate it on October 31, just to keep it simplified in my head

[ApNudd]

From what we know of the ancient Celts, they started their days at sundown and the new year started as we moved into the 'dark time'. So any festival that bases it's ideas on a Celtic ideology (ie. Samhain) would begin at sundown (Oct 31st) and continue until sundown of the following day.(Nov 1st)

As for the spring equinox:
Kadynas wrote: for ex: The Sun moves into Aries sometime on Mar. 20 (not the same time every year either) and this is usually considered the First Day of Spring by most calendars.

Uhm middle of Spring actually, this is an equinox, a balancing point, from the same root as equal. Imbolc or Feb 1st would be the beginning of spring. Just as the Summer solstice is the middle of summer, not the beginning of it.

I don't know where the idea that Mar 20/21 was the beginning of spring or June 20/21 was the beginning of summer comes from, and you are quite correct many calendars do state that these are beginnings.

H3
ApNudd.

[Equinox]

Hi-

Because the Sabbats are halfway between the solstice and equinox, it should be 45.6 days after the equinox, and 45.6 days before the solstice. You can get the actual dates (and times!) for the solstices and equinoxes here:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/calendar/

This puts it on November 6, 7 or 8 depending on the year. However, I always go with the traditional dates for the cross quarter holidays just to keep it simple - I don't want to ask friend and relatives to do the math every time they open the calendar!! :graduate: So Feb 2, May 1, Aug. 1, and Oct 31 are the dates I use for the cross quarter holidays.

-Equinox

[Kadynas]

"Kadynas wrote: for ex: The Sun moves into Aries sometime on Mar. 20 (not the same time every year either) and this is usually considered the First Day of Spring by most calendars.

Uhm middle of Spring actually, this is an equinox, a balancing point, from the same root as equal. Imbolc or Feb 1st would be the beginning of spring. Just as the Summer solstice is the middle of summer, not the beginning of it."

Ummm....no. Look at a calendar... a normal one, doesn't have to be an astrological or witchy one. The ones that don't come right out and say Solstice or Equinox /will/ say First Day of Spring.
Also any student of astrology eventually learns that Aries starts spring, Cancer-Summer, Libra-Fall, and Capricorn-Winter. This is why they are called Cardinal signs, because they start something. Following each Cardinal sign is a Fixed sign, Taurus, Leo, Scorpio or Aquarius. These signs, when relating to the seasons represent the epitomy of their season... The next are the mutable signs, Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces, which are the transition phases... Pisces would be winter slowly moving towards Spring, Virgo is summer turning into fall.
The seasons themselves are not determined by how many hours of daylight we have. The Vernal Equinox IS the first day of Spring, and the Summer Solstice IS the first day of summer. Almost like "It's not really summer til you've had your Ballpark" (cheesy hotdog commercial :lol:) Lots of people start complaining about how hot it is in early June and look at the calendar and say "Oh and it's not even summer yet, technically".
Also your theory of the seasons would make May the first month of summer! Yet this is when many of the first spring flowers are blooming. And then July would be the end of Summer? I don't think so... Maybe you live somewhere where the seasons are different weather wise... :whatgives But here we have all four for about the standard three months, and I can defintiely say your version doesn't match here... :lol:

[Kadynas]

Also... the Sabbats are not all between the Solstices and Equinoxes... Four of them /ARE/ the solstices and equinoxes!

[Equinox]

Kaydnas-

Yes, thanks for clarifying that for everyone. 8 Sabbats. That is of course what I meant.

-Equinox

[midnightreflections]

another link for you all http://www.archaeoastronomy.com/ gives the exact date for this year and the next few years and a bit of an explaination


I will be celebrating on Nov 7th....as that's my tradition.

[Phoenix Blue]

Also your theory of the seasons would make May the first month of summer! Yet this is when many of the first spring flowers are blooming. And then July would be the end of Summer? I don't think so... Maybe you live somewhere where the seasons are different weather wise... But here we have all four for about the standard three months, and I can defintiely say your version doesn't match here...
Actually, that is how I perceive the seasons. Truly, does summer start in June? Does winter start in December? No - the weather starts to turn cold in October, right around Samhuinn. :) Just because you don't immediately witness the transition of seasons doesn't mean they don't take root beforehand.

[Ahautenites]

**chuckles** Could be worse.... the Kemetic New Year begins around the dog days of summer depending on when Sirius is visible over the capital city (whichever one was capital at the time, and now it depends on whether you want to go with an Egypt-centric or a "You"-centric location) and the rising of the Nile (well, used to depend on that... they dammed it, so that part of the indication is kind of messed up).

Honestly, quibbling over a week or so's difference. Imagine MY confusion! :p

[Kadynas]

Actually, that is how I perceive the seasons. Truly, does summer start in June? Does winter start in December? No - the weather starts to turn cold in October, right around Samhuinn. :) Just because you don't immediately witness the transition of seasons doesn't mean they don't take root beforehand.
But that was what I was trying to explain! Technically Summer Solstice IS the first day of summer... The whole sign of Gemini is the transiton part - from spring into summer! :lol:

[Equinox]

Hi-

Here is a chart of the average temperature (deg F) by month in my location in Michigan. The peaks (and 2nd derivative = 0) points are pretty close to the cross quarter Sabbats, so the equinoxes and solstices are decent approximations of the "start" of each season if based on temperature. This same pattern should be followed for other locals, with just the vertical scaling changed (because it obviously warmer in Atlanta, etc.).

I don't have a strong opinion either way, but at least based on temperature, the equinoxes and solstices are my guess for the "start" of each season.

-Equinox

[Ben Trismegistus]

(why else would I be a Pagan other than to live out of the mainstream as a freedom-loving LightBeing?)
Well, that, in my opinion, is a much larger question that is best answered in its own thread.

[KathrynWingedLioness]

Well, that, in my opinion, is a much larger question that is best answered in its own thread.
Well...I was not intending to start an existential thread with that parenthetical question you quoted...my intent was to find out about when other Pagans tended to celebrate Samhain...however...since you brought it up... :hmmmmm: :idea:

Perhaps my original statement about being a rebellious person was worded poorly...but your idea of a new thread has intrigued me...even if it is simply an intention to get to know all of you better... :dancy: :huddle:

K....down to business...let me surf a while...and let's see what kind of existential bones I can throw out... :fpeace: :bouncingb

BB,
Kathryn WingedLioness ^.^
--------------------------------------
If it takes a village to raise a child, then what is the village idiot doing in the White House?

[zakzekezedd]

I recall reading somewhere that if you follow the astronomical calendar Samhain should actually fall closer to November 7 and 8 than on October 31. I think it is sometimes hard for us to grasp the seasonal correlations to the astronmical ones because of the differences in temperatures and weather patterns as you move through the latitudes. Face it, there's a big difference between the weather and temperatures much of year for Montana and Texas. This may not seem very much like the beginning of winter if you live in Texas, but Montana already has snow on the ground. Personally, I always find celebrating Lammas and the first harvest when it's still 105 a bit confusing...still.....

[Raven7]

In our house Samhain is also New Yrs Eve...making Nov 1st New Yrs day....the big celebration goes on around here on the 31st and the "wind down" on the 1st...I also give myself a 3 day window (as I do with Full Moons - the day before, the day after and the day of).....Thats just me and my path though ;)