Speaking of Fear ...

[Pan]

While I was reading Is fear normal (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=36054) , I came upon this ...

Your fears are perfectly normal for someone brought up in Christianity. That is a religion that is based on fear. Fear of God, fear of going to hell, fear of not conforming to the group, fear of sinning. The list goes on and on. ...

There's a little bit of fear tactic in Wicca, too, that I've found. The Three-fold law can be seen as a fear tactic, if you think about it.

"ever mind the rule of three, what ye give out comes back to thee"

I know that it means don't do anything bad, etc, etc., but when I was first starting out, I was afraid to even think about yelling at someone because I was afraid of divine retribution.

In pretty much all religions, there is a bit of a fear tactic. In Wicca, it's basically if you're bad, you're reincarnated into a bug or something. If you do bad, you'll get it back, times three. Does that count if you're thinking bad thoughts about someone who has wronged you? What if someone smacked your car with theirs and just ran away? Will you get a karmic slap because you wish that their car would explode on the way home?

Things like this make me question why people are always calling Christianity a "religion based on fear". I've heard it said so many times that it's ringing in my ears.

Opinions?

[Laurelei]

Well, I agree on the Three-fold law instilling some sort of fear, but it's still unfair tocompare it to Christianity. Apart from Karma, Wicca has no threat of everlasting pain. And you sometimes find Wiccans/ Witches (usually the latter) that use magick and don't heed the warnings.
Christianity, on the other hand, uses fear to persuade you to convert, fear to keep you within the religion, fear to keep you worshipping God, fear to make you behave as some largely unkown but very jumped up man decided (apologies to any Christians, but somewhere down the line what God and Jesus said was altered and overwritten. The old "thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live..." line again. The bible should never have been altered in my opinion. We badly need the second coming.)
Where was I? Drat I got lost in my own post. Oh yeah, fear to keep you converting everyone else, fear to keep you donating time and money to maintain the fear factory that is the Church gone wrong.
Basically a universal law of physics and metaphysics comes nowhere near most of Christianity today.
And that's the end of my rant.

[Pan]

Why's it so unfair? A fear tactic is a fear tactic, no matter how severe nor how soft it may seem. Using karmic fear tactics is the same as telling someone they'll go to hell if they don't do this or that. Fearing to even THINK bad thoughts is just as severe as fearing that if you don't convert someone, you'll burn for eternity.

I remember when I first started out, I was scared to death of even getting angry, so I bottled it all up inside. It was much the same when I was a Christian, the words are only different. And, instead of burning in hell, I'd be squashed as a bug in my next life.

It didn't take me long to let go of Christianity's fear tactics, but Wicca's still sticks with me. It's much the same conditioning as it had been in Christianity. When you fear thinking about a person falling because they almost got you fired when you dind't do anything because of karmic retribution, there's something wrong.

So, in short ... I don't see what's so unfair about comparing Wicca with Christianity.

[Laurelei]

Hmm... when I started out, I was slightly more careful to be nice, but I was never held in place by a single line of writing. The Rede is what you make of it.

And it's just that: a line or two of writing. Walk into a Church, on the other hand, and you'll come across preachers screaming fire and damnation and Bibles full to the brim with threats.

Karma is a universal law. It's acknowledged by many cultures and is a part of what keeps the world turning. When that section of the Wiccan Rede was written, I'm sure it wasn't written to chain people to a certain way of thinking. It was written to acknowledge Karma (or the Threefold law, depending on how you look at it). It was written to help you on your way to understanding how the universe works. At least that's what I think. As I said, the Rede is what you make of it.

Then you get Christianity, which says "If you don't do *insert generic 'good' action here* God wil send you to hell...". Now, that IS a threat.

[Pan]

I agree that anything is what you make of it. I know many Christians that don't believe their tactics are fear tactics. I know many Wiccans that don't believe Christianity has fear tactics.

The Rede being a fear tactic was how I saw it when I first started out. When I started getting online to read about what others believed, I noticed many of them complained about Christianity having their fear tactics, yet never mentioned the Rede.

To me, however you look at it, threatening someone with words is using fear to control them, or at least nudge them in a specific direction. Saying "what ye give out comes back to thee" is rather like a threat, though it's just saying "an eye for an eye" in more flowery terms. You get what you give is an age-old saying, used to nudge people into a certain way of thinking.

I still don't see how it wasn't fair to compare Christianity to Wicca. They're both religions, both still pretty new compared to most, and both use a bit of fear in their beliefs.

This is all just my opinion, remember. ;)

[Xentor]

I'm not Wiccan, and my beliefs have exactly one fear tactic:
If you kill, you might kill what / whom you need to fulfill your destiny. Therefore, one needs a strong impetus to kill. But I still eat.

No threefold law, no karma turning back on you, no sinning and no hell. No fear of god(s).

I think you need a fear tactic, on a deep level, to uphold civilisation. This fear tactic will be internalised untill people say something's wrong just because.

That's what afaik christians have been doing all their lives, internalising fear. But they wouldn't have the sin principle if all those fear tactics would work, now would they? How do catholics (for example) go about shaking off their fears? They confess their sins, must repent a while and go on to live fruitful lives.

Although Wicca doesn't have a similar construct afaik, there should be a way to talk about your fears and reconcile with them. The Wiccan Rede seems to have the same function as the Christian Commandments. If you stray or feel intimidated, Christians talk to a priest.

What do Wiccans do?

[Pan]

I guess Wiccans confide in their god/dess in what 'sins' they've done? As far as I know, Wicca doesn't have a set hierarchy, aside from Priestess and Priest. Even then, some people disregard that as a set structure, not wanting to 'conform to organised religion'.

I guess people do need some sort of fear to stay in line. After all, there are police to arrest you if you steal/murder/etc. That's a fear tactic in and of itself. There's the threat of being fired if you screw up at work. Another fear tactic.

I can see how it could keep order, but isn't there a better way to go about it? Even in religion?

[Xentor]

I don't know. When you set a boundary, someone's going to challenge it by asking, why?

Then you either explain it, or revert to dogma and instill fear.

Sometimes you can't explain something and revert to dogma immediately.

I guess you questioned the Threefold law yourself. Did you ever get a clear answer, or did you stop at "that's the way the universe works"? Because that is a dogma, much like the birth sin in christianity, and basically a fear tactic.

[Pan]

When I first started Wicca, I just accepted the 3-fold law because that's how it was supposed to be. I'd never questioned it until I began looking at other religions. :/

Now, though, I wonder if the 3-fold law is all it's really cracked up to be. Sure, bad things happen, but what if you can't think of any bad things you've done to warrant it?

[Ben Gruagach]

I've seen a lot of people interpret the threefold law of Wicca and karma as a system of punishment, but it's not the only way it can be interpreted.

I'm Wiccan myself, and I don't think of the threefold law or karma as really having anything to do with punishment at all. To me it's really just another way of saying "everything is connected" which means if you do something it affects other things, and because we are part of the whole along with the things that are directly affected we will be affected ourselves in some way.

It's sort of like the law of physics "for every action there is a reaction." Or another way to put it is "there are always consequences." Actions are never isolated from the rest of the world.

I also see it as being an issue of choice. In every situation, we have a choice to act or to not act. It doesn't matter which option we choose, there will be results from that choice, consequences. And depending on how we feel about those results they can be considered good or bad (but even then it's always a matter of perspective... something that is good in one person's point of view can be very bad in another's.)

So for me, the threefold law and karma all comes down to learning to be mature and accept the fact that there will be consequences for our choices, and to take responsibility for our choices and those results, whether they turn out the way we hoped or not.

[Laurelei]

I agree totally Ben. :)

Now, though, I wonder if the 3-fold law is all it's really cracked up to be. Sure, bad things happen, but what if you can't think of any bad things you've done to warrant it?
I personally believe that there must be SOME chaos in your life. After all, it's the challenges that make you grow spiritually, not the rewards. There are other forces at work apart from Karma, I suppose. I believe that all the Gods and Goddesses ever acknowledged are legitimate, and active within the universe. What's to say they won't set you a personal test? Karma is an important law, but I think surely God/ess could overwrite it to help you along your spiritual way. :)

[LeftToWonder]

So for me, the threefold law and karma all comes down to learning to be mature and accept the fact that there will be consequences for our choices, and to take responsibility for our choices and those results, whether they turn out the way we hoped or not.

I started this, sort of, so I guess I should add a little input. When you let fear control you, that is when it is wrong, having fear, as was said in my thread, is a very natural thing. It sounds like when you first started practicing wicca, you were afraid, just like I am, of the unknown, what does the 3 fold law mean? What does is encompass? You cant let fear guide you, you have to accept it, as Ben said. Christianity on the other hand enforces fear, "If you don't accept Jesus you will burn in hell for eternity" That is a blatant attempt to instill fear, not to accept it, and conquer it, but to use it to control you. With the 3 fold law, it is much less harsh, and it doesn't even have to be looked upon as negative, help others, and when the time comes you will be rewarded. If you let fear guide you, you are blinded by it.

[DebLipp]

People interpret karma as punishment. This started with Madame Blavatsky; I believe it is she who coined the term "Lords of Karma," as if Someone was meting out justice based on your behavior.

But karma is a very simple cause and effect. If you let go of the cup, it will drop. If it drops, it will break. The broken cup is NOT a punishment because you were a naughty girl to drop that cup. It's just the way it is.

The 3-fold law has been enormously overstated because it functions as good P.R. 'hey, world, don't be afraid of us witches, we can't be bad because we have this 3-fold law thing.' Yawn. I personally reject the notion of being good because I am afraid -- of karma, of the cops, of divine or earthly punishment of any kind. True goodness must come from within, from the choice to be good. Anything else is just being a goody-two shoes.

Being a grown-up means recognizing that the choices we make have consequences. Being experienced means that we realize that the consequences aren't always apparent, obvious, or immediate. We need to do what we think is right, and accept the consequences for so doing. That's not about fear; fear has no place in the equation.

[Theres]

I personally reject the notion of being good because I am afraid -- of karma, of the cops, of divine or earthly punishment of any kind. True goodness must come from within, from the choice to be good.

i agree here (and very well said).

and i agree that the 3FL can be likened to the Christian 'fear of retribution' idea. any difference is just a matter of degree... that's why even as a Wiccan i no longer follow it.

but i do believe in karma.

[Biinasu]

I really think that's a bit of an extreme way of looking at it..

Being held responsible for one's own actions is apparent in both...erm, 'tactics'. However, with the 3FL, it doesn't strike fear into my heart as the idea of burning in the firey pits of hell for eternity does...

Somehow, the idea of sticking my tongue out at another girl and that coming back to me three times more isn't as frightening as burning in hell for it...and if it's that way for me, than the law isn't a scare tactic for me. I suppose other people can and will take it that way but...

Everything can seem like a scare tactic if you make it out to be. The threat of going to jail if you commit a crime? A way to scare us. But does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

With being paranoid of lightening bolts falling from the sky and flames and worms and torture...and being taught that good girls go to heaven, but no matter what you'll always be bad, because we are beings of sin, and even your thoughts can get you damned to hell...dear me... >_>;

But, and this is just my opinion (as is everything else here) - the idea of "Well, this sounds like that other thing that said it was going to make me pay for what I did wrong, so I just won't believe in it" or whatever just sounds like a way to not ever be held responsible for your actions. If you're going to do bad things, why would you expect good things to happen to you? Neither the rede, the 3FL, or any of Christianity's rules stop us from doing bad things. We choose to. And even knowing the consequences (or as it seems, just not believing we'll have any) we still continue to do what we want.

If you believe that because someone tells you that you should be good, because if you don't, bad things will happen, that it's not your own personal choice to be good, you're wrong. Fear works, but if you look at the amount of people on death row and in prison, you see it doesn't work that well.


As someone once told me, "We find that things like that are only appealing to us when they work in our favour. You hate the courts, but when they made that boy pay for raping you, you were happy. When your mother yells at you for doing something wrong, you don't like it, but when she scolds your brother, you're glad she does it. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is."

Basically, there's a difference to me between rules and accountability and the everlasting threat of eternal pain and doom. But that's just me.




(I think I got a little off topic, didn't I? ^^; Meh, sorry. I get too caught up in things. ._.)

[Pan]

Honestly, I didn't expect this thread to get this ... developped. Either way ...

Likening the Three-fold Law to burning in hell for all eternity is quite a valid point, to me. Sure, the effects might seem less harsh with the 3FL, but is it really any less harsh than burning in hell for all eternity? I mean, you're still hurt in some way or another ... and THREE TIMES what you give out. Why three? Does that mean that if you punch someone in the face, you'll break your own jaw and arm? That's just about times three. And, at the same time, if you give someone thirty dollars, does that mean you're entitled to get ninety back? Doesn't seem quite fair to me. Sounds kind of selfish, in a way. Yes, even the punishment.

Who's to say that we should get everything times three? Why not just get what you give? Why multiply it by anything? Are we more deserving of having bad things happen to us if we do a bad thing? Are we more deserving of having good things happen to us if we do a good thing? Why are we to expect three times the good, if we only do one time the good... or three times the bad if we only do one time the bad? It just doesn't make any sense.

At least, in hell as I used to see it, you were punished for exactly what you did ... not three times what you did. Say you ... maliciously stole fifty dollars from an old lady each day for three years. Just to steal the money and watch her suffer. If you believe in the 3FL, does that mean that three times the bad will happen to you, though you only did one time the bad? Would you lose thousands and thousands of dollars in a gambling bet, or have your house burn down, or have your car stolen or broken into? That sounds about three times. Say you were to die after those three years, and you went to hell because you never repented for your sins. At least you're going to hell for what you did, and not getting three times the sin slapping you for all eternity. You'd just feel that dying sense of loss forever and ever, at least in my view of hell.

Using the 3FL seems a little more harsh than burning in hell for all eternity, simply for the fact that you're getting MORE than what you give; more than what you rightly deserve. At least when burning in hell for all eternity, you're just getting exactly what you deserve. None of this "you were bad, so we're gonna punish you times three." Why times three? What's the logic behind it? Are we so selfish as to think we deserve three times the good? Are we so malicious toward our fellow man that we would believe them to get three times the bad if they wronged us, or if we wronged them we would get three times the bad?

Besides, in most branches of Christianity, you have a way to repent for your sins and go to heaven. There's at least a loophole out of burning in hell, right? I don't see anything ever in Wicca saying you can repent for your wrongs to make them right. You have to accept the consequence, but times three for whatever reason.

I'm not bashing Wicca, either, by the by. I used to be Wiccan and thought of these questions a long time ago. I just never found a way to actually get it out into the open. Anyway, to continue ...

When I started Wicca, I wasn't afraid. It was when I was well into my practice that I started thinking "What if I think a bad thought about my gym teacher? Will that come back at me three times?" I wouldn't have really been as afraid if I knew it would just come back to me as what I gave out, rather than coming back three times. I didn't think karma had a multiplier.

As for chaos, yes, there's a lot of chaos everywhere in everyone's lives (pretty much). But that doesn't really have anything to do with 3FL v. Christianity's fear tactic. ie. burning in hell.

As for the 3FL itself, would it be the triple goddess punishing you from each of her personalities? I wouldn't think that karma would be thinking "well, they did this bad thing, I think I'll whip them times three!" There's just no logical reasoning behind it. I know the "eye for an eye" thing, but not "an three eyes for an eye".

Sorry it's so long-winded, but I just got off work and had a really very crappy night. ;)

[Sylvan]

Admittedly, I've only read the first few posts here.

But this fear thing... is like a moral thing too. In Christianity, you fear to sin because you fear going to hell, the wrath of God, etc. With Karma, you fear doing bad stuff because you'll get a huge karmic backlash. Either way, you are kept on the "straight and narrow", not doing bad things because of fear.

Somehow this needs to change. We need to not do bad things not out of fear but out of respect for ourselves and others. Taking a page from childhood, I need to not hit my sister not because I'm afraid of the spanking I'll get, but because I care about her and don't want her to be hurt.

Unfortunately, we are a very me-oriented society. I think until we can be properly balanced between respecting ourselves *AND* others... it's just going to be fear reactions, over and over and over again.....

[LeftToWonder]

In life, there are consequences. Everything you do has an outcome, be it good or bad. The 3fl is merely an extension of this, that has been adapted to Wicca. The outcome of the 3fl is much less extreme than the Christian punishment. The 3fl is for lack of a better word, temporary, while burning in hell for all eternity, is a rather permanent punishment.

On a semi un related thought: The 3fl encompasses everything, where as does Christianity only have certain sins that send you to hell? If I punch my little brother, and I don't feel sorry for it, and confess my sins am I doomed to hell? With the 3fl, I am going to be punished for it. Can we get away with certain things without consequence? Because if Christianity allows us to "get away" with things, then that would really muddle up what the definitions of appropriate behavior is. The 3fl is more subjective, It allows itself to be adapted to an individual, something I think is "bad" might not be bad to you, and we might view the "punishment" differently.

I hope my babbling makes sense, I need sleep.:p

[Calzaer]

You can't give a human both eternal conciousness AND a free pass to do anything they want. They'll abuse it. So any religion that offers some form of after-death continuance has to give them some reason NOT to use it as a slate-cleaner after they've done a million bad things. Hence, the threefold law for Wicca, and the amazingly un-thought-out Hell concept for Christianity.

[Valnorran]

I always saw Karmic or Threefold Law as natural consequences (stick your hand in a fire, you get hurt. Learn from your mistake and go on), whereas the impression Christianity gives is one of some entity deliberately meting out punishment (piss it off and you pay for an eternity). If you don't attend class and study and pass most of your tests/assignments, you fail the class and repeat it. This is how I see karma and reincarnation working.

[MoonDust]

Ok I’m adding my 2 cents. I’m sorry, but I haven’t read the replies yet as I’m a bit antsy to reply and well I’m an impatient brat. :D

I don’t see karma or the three-fold law as instilling fear. I just see them as fair. You can’t expect to do something and not get a reaction. Action and reaction. Simple physics. Is it physics? Science? Whatever. You get my point.

I was raised Christian apostolic. My friend and I call ‘em the super Christians. No pants, no make up, reading a book other than the bible will send you to hell, blah, blah, blah. And yes I can honestly say that most of their teachings are based on fear. Most kids by 15 or 16 are getting baptized in that religion because supposedly they are no longer young enough not to know right from wrong thus they are old enough to accept god in to their lives. So if you’re 15, 16, 17 whatever and you die for xyz reason you’ll more than likely go to hell if you didn’t take that dip fast enough. And let’s not get started on the whole “rapture” scare thing. There are movies showing just how awful life will be for you if you don’t take that dip and god decides to come for his church/children/ whatever.

[Arylon]

I can't say I buy the whole "three-fold" thing either. It's more of a simple matter of "what goes around comes around". Or "you reap what you sow". Or "do unto your neighbor as you would have done unto you". Hmmm...can I think of anymore cliches while I'm at it? :hmmmmm:

[Pan]

All these replies are all well and good ... but no one's answered the questions I asked in my super-long post.

Why is it three times the crap and three times the good? To reiterate, and make it shorter, why do we think we deserve three times the good, when we only give out one time the good? Why do we think we deserve three times the bad, when we only give out one time the bad?

I've always thought it was "an eye for an eye", not "three eyes for an eye".

[MoonDust]

IMHO we tend to forget that our actions affect many more people than we think it would.

A perfect example. Did you know that with your one donation of blood you are helping 3 people? So your one good deed becomes three. Your return will be three fold.

[Biinasu]

Well, I can't explain the number, but to me, stealing fifty dollars every day for three years, and then burning in hell for the rest of eternity isn't exactly getting what you gave. The 'loophole' isn't available in all sects of Christianity either.

I think I was trying to say earlier, that it's really only a scare tactic if you have something to fear. I'm a pretty good person, I think. I do bad things, but I don't live in fear of being punished. Maybe it comes back three time, maybe it only comes back what you gave. But I do believe it comes back, and looking for a loophole to get out of something you did is just not accepting the responsibility for what you did.

But, also, I have to admit that because *I* didn't come up with the 3FL, I can't explain it to you. That was a belief I'd held before coming into Wicca, and like many of my other beliefs, it hasn't gone away yet. That idea has existed since before I was born, and I have no explination for it yet, only that I believe in it. Maybe I don't really want one. I've seen it work. It's kind of like ESP. People are doing all sorts of experiments to see how it works. I don't want to know. I'm just content to know that it does, not how, why, and all that other stuff.

[Pan]

It still doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, you might effect more than one person, but you still only did one good deed. Why should three more come back to you?

As for the original topic, the 3FL, I believe, is still a fear tactic. Yes, we should get around the "if I do this, I'm afraid that this will happen to me" sort of mind-set. We should care more about our fellow man rather than about ourselves getting in trouble. It's the same with Christianity. They're more afraid of going to hell than hurting their fellow Christians.

When I first began Wicca, I accepted the 3FL without hesitation. I conformed to it without question because that's what I wanted to believe in. It was something different from Christianity. Soon, though, I began to wonder why we got three times everything. I started to fear getting the backlash, just as I'd feared going to hell.

When you're experiencing these feelings, hell and getting a three-fold backlash for doing one thing seems quite the same.

[JWill0ws]

My humble two cents worth:

Though I have just been learning about the 3fl - I have believed for sometime that there is a dominoe effect in the world. For instance, I am deathly afraid of spiders. If I kill a spider, I increase a portion of the fly and insect population that that spider would control (feeding), which then this increase (though, small due to only killing one spider) causes even more of an increase due to reproduction (maggots), and etc. Nature is and continues to try to be, despite human intervention, in perfect balance. When you act on something, it has a dominoe/rippling effect in the way of things. Hence, one act could cause three separate effects or even more.

I also look at it through a scientific POV. E=Mc2. What is taken is what is given. Sometimes what you take is so big or has such an effect, that what is given needs to be more in order to reset the equation.

Finally, IMHO - I have always believed that rules are like scietific theories, they have been proven to enhance or educate, but are not fact and can be bent by nature or yourself when the situation calls for it. Not to say that the 3fl will be bent by myself or anyone else, but I have usually hestitated to believe in "always", "never", and "inflexible". Nature has a way of showing me that the only thing that seems to remain constant is change.

Hope this helps.

[Pan]

Well, I can't explain the number, but to me, stealing fifty dollars every day for three years, and then burning in hell for the rest of eternity isn't exactly getting what you gave. The 'loophole' isn't available in all sects of Christianity either.


I don't agree with the loophole, I just know it's there.

See, everyone's view of hell is different. Some believe you literally burn. Some believe more along the lines of Dante. I believe that you relive your sin for all eternity. That is to say, if you hit someone maliciously with your car, and that's the worst sin you did all your life, you're constantly hit with a car over and over. That would make you suffer for your sins, realising the pain you caused the person, and the pain you caused the family. Feeling the great anguish the family had felt after you murdered the person that you did.

Why shouldn't you get eternal punishment for something you did? Why just get it for a second, then go on your merry way?

I think I'm contradicting myself, but I literally just woke up about an hour ago. Still trying to become coherent.

I guess, since I agree that both the 3FL and hell are much the same, I just don't understand why it's times three.

[GreenCrone]

How strange that my small remark produced such a deep discussion. I suppose I should have been less general about my remarks about fear and Christianity.
I don't believe it's Christian beliefs that evoke fear as much as the church organization and administrators at have used fear as a tool of power.
As a Christian for decades I was made to feel fearful because of some of my thoughts and actions. Still there are good things in the Bible. ' Do on to others....' 'Throw your bread upon the water....' 'Love thee enemy....' All excellent ideas and goals and not meant to produce fear or guilt in the reader or believer of the Bible. Surely they were written to encourage believers to live better lives. To have believers take more responisblity for there thoughts and actions. The Rede was written to do the same thing for Wiccans. As a reminder that we all need to take responiblity for our actions in life.

As for karma ..... the explain that I have come across is from
Jon Kabat-Zinn's book 'Wherever You Go There You Are'


"Karma means that this happens because that happened. B is connected in some way to A, every effect has an antecedent cause, and every cause an effect that is its measure and its consequence....." "Overall, when we speak of a person's karma, it means the sum total of a person's direction in life and the tenor of the things that occur around that person.....

From this I don't see that Buddists think of karma as a fear tactic. It's more a sum total of actions in a persons life. One thing leads to another. Responsibliy again? What do you think?

[Valnorran]

I was raised Christian apostolic. My friend and I call ‘em the super Christians. No pants, no make up, reading a book other than the bible will send you to hell, blah, blah, blah.

No pants?! What kind of Christianity is this?

I know, the women have to wear long skirts. I'm just being a smart ass. We have a fair number of apastolics and pentacostals around my area. Always felt so sorry for them. All the fear, the negativity, doom and gloom. It's got to be a lousy existence.

[Biinasu]

As for the original topic, the 3FL, I believe, is still a fear tactic. Yes, we should get around the "if I do this, I'm afraid that this will happen to me" sort of mind-set. We should care more about our fellow man rather than about ourselves getting in trouble. It's the same with Christianity. They're more afraid of going to hell than hurting their fellow Christians.

But that's the thing! I don't do nice things because I want nice things to happen to me, or because I'm afraid of the alternative. Granted, I'm bipolar, so I don't have a lot of control over some of the things I do, but the fact remains that if I do something good, I do it because I want good things to happen to other people.

When I was a Christian (born and raised Southern Baptist - believe me, we know about fear tactics. >_>), it was the same, but I lived in fear of doing something wrong, and I'd do nice things on purpose just hoping God was watching and would let me go to Heaven.

Which leads me back to the whole 'it's only a fear tactic if you -think- it's a fear tactic' thing. To me, no it's not a fear tactic. To someone else, maybe. But you can't really just give everyone the same nicely wrapped package and expect everyone to like it.

[Pan]

Yes, yes! When I was a Christian, I did good things because I was afraid of going to hell, but that didn't stop me from doing bad things because I knew I could pray each night to God to forgive me for my sins. My nightly prayer went like this:

Dear God, forgive me for all the sins I have committed, may have committed, and am going to commit. Thank you for all you've given me. Amen.

Or something like that. Yeah, it's selfish, but I really didn't want to go to hell. ;)

I've re-thought my beliefs and posted them on my thread called "beliefs". It's got my view of hell (once I post it up there) and I've decided I do believe in it. But only my version. ;)

[Aidron]

I am an asshole, I admit it. I am not going to do anything even remotely kind for anyone if I don't like them, which is often very unlikely.

However, I do admit that any kind deed, at least for me and I suspect everyone else, even if they are unaware of it or will not admit it, does have a hint of selfishness at times.

Fear most assuredly will not get me to perform acts of kindness. In fact I was a regular bad seed of a child when I did go to church. Spare me your fiery furnace down below, it's not going to get me to give you my $5.00 allowance so you can buy new bibles when you have some already that are in decent condition. Same goes for karma. I'll perform acts of kindness when, where, and how often I wish.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, that's one of the main reasons why I personally don't emphasize the threefold law as anything other than a loose guideline.

I believe that we should be moral enough people to be able to do the right thing without being told that bad things will happen to us if we misbehave. It's a childish way of getting people to be nice to each other, and it's so often blown out of proportion.

How often have we see on this board people stepping in the middle of perfectly civil debates and saying, "How can you guys disagree with each other? What about the Wiccan Rede and the threefold law?" Screw that - it's too simplistic to be taken as a dogmatic law of conduct.

Just live your life and think about the consequences of your actions.

[Biinasu]

Yes, yes! When I was a Christian, I did good things because I was afraid of going to hell, but that didn't stop me from doing bad things because I knew I could pray each night to God to forgive me for my sins.
Ah, I was skeptical. Never believed it was that easy myself. Personally, I thought God wasn't what everyone said he was, but if he was, he wanted a lot more than saying you were sorry (especially if you weren't, which, in my case, was often true) and I was convinced he wasn't really forgiving me, and that I was going to spend forever in Hell.

My, I was a paranoid little five year old...and ten years later, just thinking of that eeevil book (A Divine Revelation of Hell) that made me fear Hell and God, the way I did, makes me all "Rawr. >_>"