ethics of prayer...

[mato]

Ok I am enrolled in college right now and am finding that the students are mainly xtian which I wasnt suprised about, but the fact that they are so ignorant did take a while to sink in... I have to deal wiht a few xtian's on a regular basis and now they have started to PRAY for me! I told them to stop it but naturally that didnt help. The only problem is that when they are praying I get a massive head ache. It's not about not respecting thier path (which is the BS they tried) it's about not wanting my skull to burst releasing all sorts of unused grey matter. I did a whole reflective meditation/protection thing and that helps, the problem with that is that I shouldnt have to do that at all, if I dont want thier freaken prayers and express that it does bother me shouldnt they stop?!
Is it ethical for them to be doing this shyt even by xtian standards? Is it ethical if I reflect three fold what they send to me through thier *bleeping* religion?! Would it be totally uncool of me to release Tezcatlipoca on them? start a holy war? Seriously this is bugging me! Is there a freaken bible reference for this like 'thou shalt not pray for the flaming/flambouent pagan dude'?

[Ahautenites]

Dude, chill....

You don't say *why* they are praying for you. If someone is praying for you to change your ways and convert to Christianity or whatever religion they happen to belong to, I'd say *that's* unethical, but if someone is praying to their god for you to get better or do well on something, then there's nothing unethical about that.

You said yourself that the number of Christians there wasn't surprising. But you went willingly to that school anyway, so I'd say you either have to learn to shield more effectively or else transfer to a different school.

[*GrumpButt*]

thats right nefer!
I have had a few people that said they were going to pray for me, but they di not know that I am a pagan...
I just smile and say "thank you".
THeir intentions are good...

[Flar's Freyja]

I agree - chill. Their prayers are not going to hurt you and retaliation is not necessary.........when I get that response from a Christian, I very sweetly tell them that prayers are always appreciated.

A Christian wouldn't see this type of prayer as being unethical, so there's no point arguing that with them either. Often the best response is no response, so if you do your best to ignore it this should eventually die down.

[mato]

The problem isnt with thier prayers it's with the freaken headache they've been giving me... I wouldnt have a problem with it if it didnt make my brain feel like it was going through a blender every freaken night at the same time and every sunday for twenty minutes at the same time...
Oh ya the prayers very depending on which one is doing it, any thing from a 'change' in my sexual orientation (she's got a freaken crush on me!) to the health and well being thing...
I have to get an education. There is nothing to it, it is a must! I dont see the problem in wanting to be free from people praying for me while I do it.

[Ahautenites]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get an education free from prayer, but they aren't going to change. So you either need to find a way to block it out or else get out of the situation.

And you may also want to look into the campus health center to see if their prayer is just coincidental. You could suffer migraines. Or else something could be seriously wrong. (No, I'm not saying you're nuts. My heart-sis Nallia picks up on emotions from others and it's the uncanniest thing, so I'm not about to tell you that what you're feeling isn't what you're feeling. I just like to cover all of my bases.)

[Laurelei]

It's not unethical at all for them to pray for your health and well being, but for them to pray to get you to change your sexual orientation is like trying to control you through God, and not only do I think that's unethical, it's practically blasphemous. They ought to realise they can't use God like the strings on a puppet. Eventually they're going to get metaphorically slapped for it, but until then you'll have to try to block it. (Okay, that was the obvious answer, but I'm no expert in blocking prayers).

[bluglass]

sounds like my ex-husband. He used to get headaches as you are describing and he had migranes. Turns out they were stress related. He was getting them when he was trying to relax. The muscles, chemical, etc. combination that was happening was creating a blood flow imbalance resulting in migrane.

So in a way it is the praying but perhaps not for the reasons you are ascribing to them. Try calling your doctor and make sure you don't have anything medical happening. Perhaps you could ask them to pray for relief from the headaches. Then they would be sending positive energy your way in a way you can also appreciate?

In either case healing vibes your way from me.

Blu

[mato]

I got a check up before starting school this semester. I get one every year. Not any more or less nutz than usual!

[Desert_Yaqui]

mato my friend, directing the energy of Chalchiutlicue to you. May her powers over rivers, lakes, streams, and other freshwaters cleanse and energize you.

And the only other advice I can offer is to avoid these individual(s) whenever possible. Or maybe introducing this female to your boyfriend/lover/SO? I got nothing else, dude! So, other than what I've just written, be well and take it easy. see ya on the boards!

:lol:

[Pan]

In liu of Blueglass, maybe these headaches are stress-related? After all, you seem to be really stressing over a situation that really shouldn't matter. Many Christians pray for me, and it doesn't bother me at all. I just smile, nod, and walk on. If they want to pray for my salvation, that's their choice. I don't have to dwell on it and give them the satisfaction of -being- bothered by it.

Allowing yourself to dwell on these prayers hurts you more than it does them. No matter how much you tell them that you don't want their prayers, it won't really change anything. Just accept their prayers as part of their religion and go about your life. If you want to be tolerant of others' religious choices, then you need to realise that sometimes their paths differ greatly from yours. This includes their idea of 'ethical' and 'unethical'. To them, it's perfectly alright to pray to God that you stop your blasphemy through your sexual orientation. To you, it's offensive. You can't make a river run upstream, so I would stop trying to tell them to stop, if I were you. Just accept it as part of their religious practise, much the same as a Wiccan or general pagan sends healing energies out to those they care about. Maybe they really do care for your salvation and feel they are doing you a great service by praying for you. After all, that's what they believe.

All in all, I'd stop stressing over this little thing. If you're in school, then you have bigger things to worry about than someone sitting in a pew praying for your ultimate salvation. If that's all you have to worry about, I wish I had gone to that school. ;)

[Imbrium]

:rant: excuse me, I'm just going to blow off some steam here: Hello Mato.

I’d like to just say that I’m an ex fundie Christian, and a very devout one, at that. My absolute favorite preacher of all time stated that he’d rather not have anyone pray for him at all than pray for him incorrectly. The reason for this is that most Christians pray the problem, as opposed to the solution. So I’d be willing to bet that the prayers sent your way are sounding something like..” Dear Father, please save poor Mato…enter into his heart and show him your glory,…” Etc…As opposed to; “ Dear Father, please bless Mato…” See the difference? If they are charismatic type Christians it will be more like “ Dear father, I claim that Mato is saved, in the name of Jesus! And your word says whatsoever we ask for in your name will be done…”

In my opinion, that kind of thing is immoral, but you’ll never get a Christian to fess up to that. There is nothing in the good ‘ol King James that defends you so long as the only way to save your immortal soul is to accept Jesus as Lord, and so on. They think they’re doing you a serious favor. OH…by the way, don’t make the mistake of thinking that ‘just because it’s prayer’ that it’s anything less effective than magick. Keep in mind that most of their intent and focus is on you and perhaps your Christian schoolmates are doing what normal good Christians do and pray for you in groups. The bible states that “wherever two or more are gathered in prayer that I’m (Jesus) am amongst them” ...(paraphrased) My conversion to paganism was actually started because I was on the receiving end of some really messed up prayer. ICK! It’s a long story…but anyway, IMHO, I’d treat it like a form of psychic attack, and practice some shielding if I were you.

By the way, I’m not trying to attack Christian faith, just some methodology is all. Good luck!

[Djiril]

Do the "health and well-being" prayers also give you headaches? If so, that is some clumsey prayer! :fishsmack

[mato]

Thank you all for your kind words...
I have taken steps and the headaches have stopped, thankfully! It just frustrates me!

And yes it is very clumsy prayer... I think she needs lessons or something.

Desert_Yaqui thanks for the cleansing energy, it is much appritiated! SHe is such a cool goddess too!

[9-2-2]

Thank you all for your kind words...
I have taken steps and the headaches have stopped, thankfully! It just frustrates me!

And yes it is very clumsy prayer... I think she needs lessons or something.

Desert_Yaqui thanks for the cleansing energy, it is much appritiated! SHe is such a cool goddess too!

Congrats! I think there's a weird lesson-thingie in here somewhere... ah. If you resist like the mighty oak, the storm will snap you. If you ride the storm like the bending willow, you will bounce back up as the storm passes.

In otherwords, the more you psychologically resist, the easier it is for your mind to snap. Sloughing it off is healthier. Have a good, healthy,... uh, health, man.

[Aidron]

You know I have never understood people getting all in an uproar over prayer. Let them pray for you, who cares. While prayer is a form of magic, you all are forgetting that magic also takes skill and practice to work properly, instead of just praying out your butt hoping things will go as you wish.

In any event, if they are praying for you to become a christian, so what? If you do become christian perhaps you will be happier. People evolve and change, sometime in the future you may find christianity is in fact the path for you. If not, no amount of magic or prayer or potions will change what you believe to be true at the core of who you are.

I'm sorry, but if you are that worried about prayers affecting your beliefs, your beliefs may not be as strong as you think. They could be, I wouldn't know, but it's something you should not dismiss and give some thought to.

If they are harassing you in a non-prayer way, report them through t he proper channels. If they are annoying you, kindly ask them to stop or you will see an official about it. Whatever the problem is, there is a solution.

People have prayed for me over the years countless times and I have never once cared. Christian, pagan, eh. I do not ask anyone to pray for me as if I cannot do it myself, I do not want your help. No one's prayers have ever bothered me, no matter how much you pray to save my soul. In fact, my soul probably was saved a few years back, but here I am, still a witch and still going strong. Christians do not understand that magic needs to be specific, so while they can pray to save your soul as often as they like, all they may truly do is help send positive energy your way to snap you out of a nasty depression, not alter your very belief system.

Ignore them or report them. Either way, I really don't see it as a huge deal. Don't let it get to you.

[Desert_Yaqui]

mato, to further aid you in your healing (from the massive headaches), I will now direct to you the power and energy of the great Itzpapalotl. May her claws and obsidion knives assist you to ward off any more potential ill intent--from whatever corner of the earth it comes from...

[9-2-2]

I think Mato already said the issue has been dealt with... o_O;

[Mau]

I feel for ya Mato. I have a few Fundies praying for me..that the Lord saves my soul, that I find Jesus and come back to the flock like a confused lil lamb. I had one tell me she was going to pray for the devil to release his clutches on my mind and soul, and that Jesus intervenes and takes me back :wtf:
I let em have at it....but if it was causing me physical pain..I'd be just as POd as you were.
Glad you got a handle on your headaches :D

[Desert_Yaqui]

I think Mato already said the issue has been dealt with... o_O;

Yes, 9-2-2 you are absolutely right. I thank you for kindly reminding me that this issue has been dealth with... However, I speak of something a little off the record and mato knows what I was refering to.

But thanks for your help, anyway!

[MystIc_WolF]

If this was happening to me and I discovered that it was infact the prayers that were causing the headaches, not because I get migraines or some other such thing, I'd do everything in my power to get them to stop. If they didn't stop when I requested it, I'd go to the proper authority at the school, then the police if that didn't help. Praying for someone might be ok, but trying to force them to convert is in my opinion totally unethical (I have talked to a couple christians and catholics that agree that converting someone is ok if they want to convert, but immoral to force them, which makes perfect sense to me), and causing them physical harm and yes, inducing migraines is causing physical harm, is illegal.

[mato]

You know I have never understood people getting all in an uproar over prayer.
I wouldnt have bothered had they made thier prayer so blatantly offensive, and had I not been getting headaches from thier activities, I probably wouldnt have said anything if they would have backed down, but they didnt so I told them to bugger off. When they failed to respect MY right to peace and quite one of em got hit with a karmic backlash that really shouldnt have happened.


In any event, if they are praying for you to become a christian, so what? If you do become christian perhaps you will be happier. People evolve and change, sometime in the future you may find christianity is in fact the path for you. If not, no amount of magic or prayer or potions will change what you believe to be true at the core of who you are.

I'm sorry, but if you are that worried about prayers affecting your beliefs, your beliefs may not be as strong as you think. They could be, I wouldn't know, but it's something you should not dismiss and give some thought to.

I never once felt an inclination to become a xtian. I can not become xtian because I dont believe in forgiveness, but vengeance is just fine with me. Most of thier beliefs I find blatantly offensive and Morally WRONG. My system is the one for me and NO amount of prayer or magick or ritual will change That! I just brought this up to as a point, shouldnt prayer be held in similar light as magick?


If they are harassing you in a non-prayer way, report them through t he proper channels. If they are annoying you, kindly ask them to stop or you will see an official about it. Whatever the problem is, there is a solution.

The problem would have been infinitly easier to deal with had it only been that easy. I asked them to stop bugging me and they did, the prayers continued and the headaches where being caused by them. The problem is solved now.


People have prayed for me over the years countless times and I have never once cared. Christian, pagan, eh. I do not ask anyone to pray for me as if I cannot do it myself, I do not want your help. No one's prayers have ever bothered me, no matter how much you pray to save my soul. In fact, my soul probably was saved a few years back, but here I am, still a witch and still going strong. Christians do not understand that magic needs to be specific, so while they can pray to save your soul as often as they like, all they may truly do is help send positive energy your way to snap you out of a nasty depression, not alter your very belief system.

Ignore them or report them. Either way, I really don't see it as a huge deal. Don't let it get to you.

I assume you are not implying that I am depressed! Hardly! I am Cheerfully Angry! It is my natural state.
The problem I have with xtians trying to 'save' me and mine is that it is not thier place! Me and Mine would go insane in the kind of 'heaven' they believe in and thier beliefs are so drastically and dramatically different from ours that when one of ours or thiers does 'convert' it often ends badly for every one involved.
Magic need not be spacific. Hell I have had excellent results from none spacific settings! While spacific confines often produce and unworkable end.
And once again the problem is solved. The headaches are done and that nasty karmic backlash I refered to has ceased all major efforts to 'save' me.


mato, to further aid you in your healing (from the massive headaches), I will now direct to you the power and energy of the great Itzpapalotl. May her claws and obsidion knives assist you to ward off any more potential ill intent--from whatever corner of the earth it comes from...

Once again Desert_Yaqui thank you! I will perform the proper thanks later tonight.

[Desert_Yaqui]

Once again Desert_Yaqui thank you! I will perform the proper thanks later tonight.

No problem, Kiddo! Anytime I can help you out, let me know... You know, me and the goddesses--we got your back!

[SisterLittleWitch]

This is just a shot in the dark but it sounds to me like you're putting WAY too much energy into these people!!! And in return you're getting the headaches. Stop stressing about what they are doing cause you're only hurting you. And this energy could be directed in a much better place. To my Mothers dismay and horror her two daughters are Pagan and she is a die hard Baptist. She prays for us all the time. Its become an ongoing joke with my sister and I. They aren't trying to change your sexual orientation or faith. They are probably praying for you to find your way back to the path (what they think should be your path) so your soul doesn't go to hell and you spend the rest of your life wandering and being judged. My sister and I are at the point that when we do something "witchy" we look at eachother and say oh Mom is probably gonna run upstairs and pray for us. :lol: Also I have to agree with one of the other posts the best way to deal with some is to just ignore it. If you argue or retaliate in anyway it only feeds their fire. Like a bully....they only bully cause people pay attention to it. If no one listens then they eventually just give up. So chin up....laugh it off or very graciously just say well thank you and smile.

[Kalika]

Mato...

I have found that a simple "no thanks" works when said frequently enough.

However, regarding the question of ethics... I agree that if they are praying for YOU (ie health, wellbeing, nothing religion-based) it is not unethical. But if they are praying for your eternal soul, or that you won't go to hell... that's an issue. If its the first... you shouldn't be having problems... if its the second... I would address it with them... if that doesn't work... have you ever considered relocation? :)

Blessings,

Kalika

[zakzekezedd]

Well....you could always just smile sweetly and say "And, I'll be happy to pray to the Goddess for you" the next time they tell you they're praying to God for you....but the best option really probably is to sheild yourself and just ignore them. (Altho' sarcasm is only too much temptation sometimes...)

[IndigoMoon]

I've found that xtains are pretty harmless. Like a dog with a big bark but no bite.