The Darkside of Paganism

[Pagan]

Hello everyone,

at first sorry for my poor English.

In the last days I start to wonder why the most Pagan books try to sell this “Super-Light-Path” to the reader? I mean there so much books out there who will tell you “Follow the WHITE-PATH!!” & “Harm no one!” and so on! Would it only be in the books for kids, which somehow always looking for lovespells…, I could understand it but, is there really no book out there which can tell more about the “darkside” of Paganism?

I don’t want some explanations of rituals, okay maybe later, I’m more interested in the explanations if there is a “darkside” of Paganism and how it is to go one a “Dark-Path”. I think to much “love” can destroy you, of course to much hate too. So do some one can tell me more about that or suggest a book? That would be nice! Thanks!

I looking forward to find the middle of both.

Greetings from Germany
Pagan

[aefentid]

One book you might look into is Mastering Witchcraft by Paul Huson it includes things that you might consider dark such as attack magic and love spells here's a review of it. http://www.ecauldron.com/bkmwitch.php
Another book is Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft by Raymond Buckland, it isn't perfect but it is more balanced than many books.
If you're looking for Wiccan books you might be better off with books originally published in the 70's and 80's they tend to be less light and more balanced. You might also want to read some Aliester Crowley.If you're interested in any gods , I would go straight to myths ,legends, and scholarly accounts of those gods and not bother with what books on paganism have to say about those gods.

I hope that helped.

[Rain Gnosis]

First, I must agree with aefentid's recommendations. Other then Buckland's book, you might take a look at the Witches' Bible Compleat by the Farrars and Viviane Crowley's book titled Wicca. Crowley also wrote some fascinating work though it is a bit harder to read.

Konstantinos just put two books out that might or might not be of interest - Nocturnal Witchcraft and Gothic Grimoire. I haven't bought them myself but you might take a look.

[Laurelei]

I agree in that books which try to sell a 'super light path', as you put it, seem to be mostly aimed at kids. I have three books by Silver RavenWolf, one is Teen Witch, the other is to Ride a Silver Broomstick. A section in Teen Witch is titled "The Dark Side - Witches Don't go There". To contradict it, a section in Silver Broomstick is titled "There is no Such Thing as a White Witch".

I find that incredibly patronizing. For the record :p It's as if Silver RavenWolf is drawing a line and saying us teenagers aren't capable of common sense and moral values :).

Many spells in books about "White" Witchcraft/Paganism can be adapted to cause something negative simply by switching a white candle for a black one, white paper for black paper e.t.c. e.t.c.

Going off topic, but I thought I'd mention it, I have a friend who LOVES Germany. All the Christmas presents she gets comes from Germany and she goes there every holiday.

Even more off topic, I have to finishe this post because I've got R.E. homework to do. Hooray!:)

[hedgecub]

I must second Rain Gnosis of "Wicca", by Vivianne Crowley. I have read the book and found it to be a well balanced and thorough discussion of Wicca.

[TYRRHENUS]

A lot of people knock the "fluffy bunnies," but I think we were all fluffies at one point or another.
I think there is a "dark side" to Paganism, and that you will find it primarily by hanging out with Reconstructionists. Recons will tell you the truth, and not try to "look on the bright side," as it were.
For instance, many of the books today on Celtic Paganism describe the ancient Celts almost as enlightened hippies. Whereas, we know from the writings of the Romans that they were a frightening, war-like people. That when the Celts came around, it was either best to stay out of their way, or give them what they wanted.
That's why I recommend The Classics. That's what I think.

[Kaylara]

Both books suggested by Rain are a good read.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Whereas, we know from the writings of the Romans that they were a frightening, war-like people. That when the Celts came around, it was either best to stay out of their way, or give them what they wanted.

Actually we don't know that at all, remember history is written by the victors, and honestly a good bit of it is propoganda. I'm not saying that they were "enlightened hippies" I'm just saying that taking the Romans word for it entirely is a mistake. The Romans after all were masters of propoganda.

~Saoirse Aiyana

[aefentid]

Actually we don't know that at all, remember history is written by the victors, and honestly a good bit of it is propoganda. I'm not saying that they were "enlightened hippies" I'm just saying that taking the Romans word for it entirely is a mistake. The Romans after all were masters of propoganda.

~Saoirse Aiyana





there might have been propaganda in what the Romans wrote but they aren't our only source of information. You could look at the Tain or the Mab and other stories of the Celts to see what they valued, and of course there's always archeology.

[Cerulean]

There is a reason that the books tell you to stay in the light. That is to protect you. Curiosity can open the door to bad things.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

there might have been propaganda in what the Romans wrote but they aren't our only source of information. You could look at the Tain or the Mab and other stories of the Celts to see what they valued, and of course there's always archeology.

I agree that te Romans aren't our only source, I was merely responding to Tyrrhenus's post which did only mention the Romans. As for some of the so called sources of the Celts I'm not too sure we should really upon them either. The Celts did not commit their writings and knowledge to writing, and as the Ossian poems among others were found to be forgeries, it is possible that so of the other writings that we do rely on might also be forgeries.

Trust me, I'm not saying at all that the Celts weren't a war-like, and quite probably terrifying people, but then again in those times, who wasn't? I was more pointing out that there is a need to be careful about what you are using as sources, even historical ones, because not everything in there is necessarily going to be historical fact. And in fact, unless someone invents a time machine, we will never know the actual truth, we can only guess and speculate.

As for the 'darkside' of Paganism, yes a lot of the Wicca/Pagan 101 books are going to tell you to stay away from it. However I think that is a good thing, not acknoweleding that it exists could be dangerous. Most people at a beginners level should not be delving into shadow studies as yet. Shadow studies should wait, IMO, until the student has mastered basic techniques/training and ready to move onto the more advanced studies.

~Saoirse Aiyana

[Kalika]

A dark path... hmm. Is this something you are interested in following, or just interested in learning about?

My patron goddess is Kali, who is considered a dark goddess, but I do not consider myself to be a follower of a dark path.

Anyways, back to the topic somewhat, I think that a lot of books promote the "life in the light" theory so as to avoid the stereotype of "witches are evil" by the inexperienced or uneducated (on this subject). I have yet to find a book that has a really good balance between light and dark influences, so if anyone has any suggestions, please point me in that direction!!

There are dark and light sides to almost everything... it just depends on your take. (I know that's not very helpful... sorry!)

[Ben Trismegistus]

I don't think that the point is to follow a "light path" or a "dark path". The point is to achieve balance between the dark and light parts of yourself, and through that, to achieve balance between the dark and light parts of the universe. Picture the yin-yang -- light cannot exist without darkness. Life is about duality - black/white, good/bad, happy/sad, light/dark. We can only really grow spiritually if we embrace both sides of the duality without judging either side. (Oy, I sound like I'm preaching, sorry.)

I try to avoid referring to any deity or practice as entirely light or dark. Kali is sometimes considered a dark goddess, but that is not all of who she is. A lot of deities (the Greeks spring to mind) are capable of great good and slatternly laziness, generosity and covetousness (is that a word)?

In other words, it's never that simple.

[WandererInGray]

There is a reason that the books tell you to stay in the light. That is to protect you. Curiosity can open the door to bad things.


Riiiiiiiight.

Curiosity can also open the door to amazing experiences and wonderful discoveries. I don't believe there is anything more dangerous in the dark than that which can be found in the light. *shrugs* That old adage "to protect you" smacks to me of hypocracy and the days of ignorance being pushed as a way to keep people safe. Ignorance causes far more danger for a person than knowledge does.

[Athena-Nadine]

Riiiiiiiight.

Curiosity can also open the door to amazing experiences and wonderful discoveries. I don't believe there is anything more dangerous in the dark than that which can be found in the light. *shrugs* That old adage "to protect you" smacks to me of hypocracy and the days of ignorance being pushed as a way to keep people safe. Ignorance causes far more danger for a person than knowledge does.
All too true.

Also, "staying in the light," to me, just means ignoring the dark. Going through life trying to convince yourself that everything is all "happy, happy, joy, joy," is a ridiculously unrealistic view of the universe and everything in it.

Light, Dark, Good, Evil, it's all subjective.

The gods, no matter What people will try to portray Them as, are not Glenda the Good Witch of the North types.

[Phoenix Blue]

Curiosity can also open the door to amazing experiences and wonderful discoveries. I don't believe there is anything more dangerous in the dark than that which can be found in the light.
I think it's easier not to get lost when learning first how to recognize lighter aspects of one's Path. :) Later, as you delve deeper, you'll inevitably encounter darker spots - but by then you'll understand light well enough to bring your own with you.

[MystIc_WolF]

There is a reason that the books tell you to stay in the light. That is to protect you. Curiosity can open the door to bad things.


I would have to agree with you, to a point. Someone who has just started on the path or is dabbling should definitely not actually try to summon evil spirits or experiment with curses, however the same does not hold true for someone who has been studying such things for years, knows what they are doing, and has safety measures in place if something goes wrong. Also, I find the statement about protecting the person to be darogatory and demeanig in many ways. Just because someone is interested in the dark side of the craft and reads about it doesn't mean that something is automatically going to go wrong and their life is going to fall apart. Just because something is "evil", however, does not necessarily make it "bad" or something you should stay away from it, as long as you know what you are doing.

[WandererInGray]

Just because someone is interested in the dark side of the craft and reads about it doesn't mean that something is automatically going to go wrong and their life is going to fall apart. Just because something is "evil", however, does not necessarily make it "bad" or something you should stay away from it, as long as you know what you are doing.

Further more...just because something is dark doesn't mean it's evil.

[Rain Gnosis]

I don't think that the point is to follow a "light path" or a "dark path".

This is why I don't plan to buy Konstantinos' books. It's not that I think there isn't value in working with "the dark side", but I do see it as somewhat unnecessary to discuss "the dark side" and "the light side". To me, those terms are merely human constructs, and focusing on them too much can lead to worrying too much about the lines between them rather then recognizing they're two points on the same poll. Like yin and yang, neither is useful without recognizing both as part of eachother.

[Kalika]

This is why I don't plan to buy Konstantinos' books. It's not that I think there isn't value in working with "the dark side", but I do see it as somewhat unnecessary to discuss "the dark side" and "the light side". To me, those terms are merely human constructs, and focusing on them too much can lead to worrying too much about the lines between them rather then recognizing they're two points on the same poll. Like yin and yang, neither is useful without recognizing both as part of eachother.


Good point, and well put.

[Kalika]

I don't think that the point is to follow a "light path" or a "dark path". The point is to achieve balance between the dark and light parts of yourself, and through that, to achieve balance between the dark and light parts of the universe. Picture the yin-yang -- light cannot exist without darkness. Life is about duality - black/white, good/bad, happy/sad, light/dark. We can only really grow spiritually if we embrace both sides of the duality without judging either side. (Oy, I sound like I'm preaching, sorry.)

I try to avoid referring to any deity or practice as entirely light or dark. Kali is sometimes considered a dark goddess, but that is not all of who she is. A lot of deities (the Greeks spring to mind) are capable of great good and slatternly laziness, generosity and covetousness (is that a word)?

In other words, it's never that simple.

I agree, and I know Kali is not solely a dark goddess. My take on Kali is the creator and destroyer of all things - light vs. dark. But most often when she is portrayed, or in descriptions that I have found, she is categorized as a dark goddess. She's been great for me, so the categorizing isn't what I see! :) Was making a point. Covetousness... I think it is. (a word I mean. If not... it should be. I like it. :)) (The point was that dark is not necessarily bad, evil, etc)

I also agree with the statement that you can't have light without dark, good without bad, etc. They are like two sides of the same coin. How far you choose to look into each aspect, and include even the gray areas that have no real definition, are up to you.

Learn ALL you can. Knowledge is power. Some would argue that ignorance is bliss... but I don't agree. It looks like you have a mind that is open to learning, and the fact that you are willing to accept that there IS a darker side to things is a good start. Plus, learning all you can about everything you can, makes for good and interesting conversation. :lol:

Blessings,

Kalika

[Laurelei]

Further more...just because something is dark doesn't mean it's evil.
Yep. I think of 'good' and 'evil' as human ideals, invented words and invented concepts.
I personally think that you need the same amount of moral fibre and common sense to practice 'White' magick as you need to practice 'Black' magick. The two can cause the same amount of damage as each other.

[FlyingBear]

Hmm.......

For me, the whole ' black' 'white' ideal around magic is very much up to the will of user. It becomes what you will it to be. Personal choice and responsibilty is like that as well. I still reconmend that you read read read *every* book that makes you go hmmmmmm. The stronger your roots are, the higher your tree grows.

But anyway, speaking of books, there's a decent seeming jungian book out there called " Dancing in the Dragon's Den" by...... o balls, what is her name? Had it on mind all day and when I go to type it down, it's gone. :rolleyes: It's a workbook of sorts working on the Shadow Side. I haven't had the chance to read thru it, but Seabhac did and got alot out of it. Several friends of ours have also reconmended it. Just some food for thought. :dinnertim

:floating:

~FB

[lunawolfespryte]

...just catching up... it's all grey...a pretty grey, and you add your own light or dark on either side, you do have to find "a" or "the" balance... i have the books i need now, but when i was in the magic section of bookstores, i was drawn to the "dark" books, not because i wanted to pursue, but because i wanted to be aware of how not to misuse, and what neccessarily constituted "dark" magic. is that a run-on...? i am still, after all these years, just so upset at the lies and misconceptions set on by the inquisitions, grr... and, you have to be aware of what you can/can't handle... read, read, rede, don't take advantage, and don't set out to destroy. happy mediums are goood.

[door]

I found Richard Cavendish's The Black Arts an engaging read on this topic. Has anyone else read it? Your thoughts?

[Cerulean]

I think it's easier not to get lost when learning first how to recognize lighter aspects of one's Path. :) Later, as you delve deeper, you'll inevitably encounter darker spots - but by then you'll understand light well enough to bring your own with you. That's all I was trying to say to Pagan, who only speaks English as a second or third language. I feel trashed. And as for being derrogatory or whatever, that is in your mind. Why so strong a reaction? If you're really comfortable with your path.

[9-2-2]

Darkness is prevalent throughout humanity. You'll be surprised at how humans can be such vile animals.
Reccomended reading:

"The Dark God", by Nicholas Mann
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/156718460X/ref=cm_wl_ovu-pg.1-pos.2/002-9578167-6886401?v=glance&coliid=I332CJZLH62XSM&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I don't reccomend "Nocturnal Magick" by Konstantinos, because it seems more of a Gothic sell-out. Look through history, and watch how people treat each other. Talk to felons, criminals and convicts about the darkness in their lives. And don't be afraid of them; they're humans, just like you. Some of them will piss and moan, the others will sit you down in a comfy chair and get you a cup of coffee - 'cuz you'll be waiting for a while.

That's the only book I can think of. But the best you can do is look, watch, and observe. Darkness is best learned through experience. It is uncomfortable, dangerous, disgusting, and the best teacher you'll find. Darkness is good to experience, but do not linger. Keep moving, keep going forward. Don't get trapped in either the light or the dark... or you'll stunt your soul's growth.

[WandererInGray]

Why so strong a reaction?

Perhaps because I (and I've no doubt others) are sick of people telling us that things are "too dangerous" or it's "for our own good". I'm well past the age of hand-holding and being waved away from the flame to keep me from burning myself.
Magic carries with it a heavy responsibility, as does the Pagan path. In my mind it is a faith that always encourages us to explore and grow....and yes, sometimes fall down and skin our knees.

I don't agree with the reasoning behind "it's too dangerous." As an adult and a Pagan it's my right to decide what is too dangerous and what isn't for me. *shrugs* Just one of my major pet peeves. If I'd wanted handholding and being told "no" all the time, I would join a fundamentalist church.

[Phoenix Blue]

As an adult and a Pagan it's my right to decide what is too dangerous and what isn't for me. *shrugs* Just one of my major pet peeves.
A quick add-in to this:

It's your right to make this sort of decision, given that you understand that the consequences of your actions are your responsibility alone. :) People who can't understand this should not have the right to decide what is too dangerous, IMO. But then, in more traditional structures, one doesn't get into anything that might be considered "dangerous" until she's completed her first degree initiation and been thoroughly indoctrinated on the idea of self-responsibility. :)

[WandererInGray]

*nods and grins* One of the major reasons I'm not in a traditional structure. ;) I don't feel that anyone really has the right to tell someone else how far they can explore into their own psyche, practice, whatever.
I should amend that to say no one mortal that is, it's my feeling that your Gods have every right to tell you and more importantly will tell you if you're overstepping the bounds of your knowledge.
Or sometimes....*grins and shrugs*...they'll stand back just far enough to let you feel the heat, but close enough to keep one from getting seriously burned.

And in "un"traditional structures, who gets to decide? The person who's going to be involved, correct? Which means in the end, we're back to deciding for ourselves what is dangerous.

[Athena-Nadine]

A quick add-in to this:

It's your right to make this sort of decision, given that you understand that the consequences of your actions are your responsibility alone. :) People who can't understand this should not have the right to decide what is too dangerous, IMO. But then, in more traditional structures, one doesn't get into anything that might be considered "dangerous" until she's completed her first degree initiation and been thoroughly indoctrinated on the idea of self-responsibility. :)
*...shrugs...* Even in that case, "she" has made the decision for herself, just by deciding she needed to become part of a Tradition that practices this way.

[Ben Trismegistus]

And in "un"traditional structures, who gets to decide? The person who's going to be involved, correct? Which means in the end, we're back to deciding for ourselves what is dangerous.
Interesting. However, I would say that in nontraditional structures (solitaries, or eclectic trads without a degree system), it's still a good idea to start slow and not attempt everything at once. Most of us describe what we do as a spiritual "path" or "journey", and I do think that certain experiences belong to certain areas of the path.

So, whereas I disagree with Cerulean that we should "stay in the light", I do believe that it's important to caution new seekers to be careful with the knowledge they acquire at first. You shouldn't start right out attempting to draw down a goddess, or invoke a demon, or something like that. Wanderer, I'm sure that you're smart enough to decide for yourself what is dangerous or too complex for you to handle, but I see a lot of people who believe that after a few months of study, they're ready to perform some grand feat of magic. That's when things get dangerous.

Not sure if this helps anyone, but since this is the New Pagans forum, I thought it was worthwhile to prevent that argument. :)

[WandererInGray]

Wanderer, I'm sure that you're smart enough to decide for yourself what is dangerous or too complex for you to handle....

*grins* Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ben. :lol:

....but I see a lot of people who believe that after a few months of study, they're ready to perform some grand feat of magic. That's when things get dangerous.

Maybe this is harsh, but I think you deserve what you get. *shrugs* If after a few months of study you haven't read at least once that you need to be prepared and/or trained for certain things or even if you've read it and chose to ignore it then when the great smackdown happens, who's fault is it really? I don't see that it's anyone's job to protect people from themselves.

;) Call me a firm believer in Magical Darwinism, if you will.

[Phoenix Blue]

Maybe this is harsh, but I think you deserve what you get.
Definitely! :p But what about the people who don't deserve what they get, but who still have to suffer consequences from one stupid person's actions?

It's like driving drunk - I don't care about the person who chose to make the stupid decision, but unfortunately, he tends to hurt everyone around him even more than he hurts himself.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Maybe this is harsh, but I think you deserve what you get. *shrugs* If after a few months of study you haven't read at least once that you need to be prepared and/or trained for certain things or even if you've read it and chose to ignore it then when the great smackdown happens, who's fault is it really? I don't see that it's anyone's job to protect people from themselves.

;) Call me a firm believer in Magical Darwinism, if you will.
Sure, I can understand that. But, this being the New Pagans forum, I thought it was worth taking 30 seconds to say, "hey dudes, be careful." If they choose to ignore me, that's their problem. :)

[WandererInGray]

Definitely! :p But what about the people who don't deserve what they get, but who still have to suffer consequences from one stupid person's actions?

It's like driving drunk - I don't care about the person who chose to make the stupid decision, but unfortunately, he tends to hurt everyone around him even more than he hurts himself.

*shakes head* Maybe it's because I don't believe that messing with magic too powerful for you is in any way equal to driving while drinking. *shrugs* I honestly don't think that someone screwing around with something they're "not supposed" to can cause harm to anyone but themselves in the process.

Your statement leans dangerously close to the idea of blaming the gun manufacturer if someone uses a gun to kill someone with. :goodgrief I've never believed that was the case and I never will.

Say you're in a car accident. *grins and winks* And you tell the officer "but I didn't know you couldn't run a red light!"

It won't fly.

The laws of man and the laws of science don't give clemency for "not knowing" I have a hard time believing that the "laws" of magic are any different.

*Grins at Ben* Oh sure, that I agree with. I think we wandered onto a topic that's more a debate on the responsibilty issue than a warning to new pagans.

[Phoenix Blue]

Your statement leans dangerously close to the idea of blaming the gun manufacturer if someone uses a gun to kill someone with.
:confused: I don't see how?

[Rain Gnosis]

We don't live in a vaccuum - even if we only hurt ourselves that impacts the world - if someone drives themself insane by invoking Demon X from Y Book, and starts killing people, well obviously it becomes a problem that involves other people. Or someone decides to do X nasty spell on Y that halfass works, obviously it involves other people. Or someone in my office or classroom decides to start drumming up some nasty energy, it's quite possible I'll be affected. Etc. etc.

Edited to add - I don't see this as blaming the gun manufacturer for Jimmy shooting someone, I see it as making a choice myself not to start handing guns out. It's not a matter of blame as much as making a personal choice not to take part.

[WandererInGray]

I don't mean for this to sound sarcastic so don't take it the wrong way. :)

We don't live in a vaccuum - even if we only hurt ourselves that impacts the world - if someone drives themself insane by invoking Demon X from Y Book, and starts killing people, well obviously it becomes a problem that involves other people. Or someone decides to do X nasty spell on Y that halfass works, obviously it involves other people.

Fortunately we don't live in a Forgotten Realms™ book either. *shakes head* I'm sorry, but that would be where what people believe can be accomplished by "magic" is a HUGE distinguisher in what kinds of impacts one can believe in happening.

For the record, I don't think something like that would EVER happen. Simply because there are too many stupid people out there...and if it were possible, it would have happened already. *shrugs and shakes head*

The only one of those three that I can even half believe in is the negative energy from others bleeding into your life. But even then, if one is properly protected from that, it shouldn't have an effect in the first place. And once discovered can be dealt with.

[Rain Gnosis]

Fortunately we don't live in a Forgotten Realms™ book either. *shakes head* I'm sorry, but that would be where what people believe can be accomplished by "magic" is a HUGE distinguisher in what kinds of impacts one can believe in happening.

I don't even know what "Forgotten Realm" is, nor have I ever played a roleplaying game, nor do I even read fantasy novels. However, the point isn't whether you believe in demons, it is what dabblers believe in and just what's possible with belief.

Who says this hasn't happened already? I've seen it before - nasty energy drummed up and shared around and the big messes that come out of it. Whether someone thinks it's a demon or someone has an already existing mental problem that was exacerbated by dabbling, does it matter? The message is still the same.

This isn't anything new either - lest you think it's all fantasy, read some of Jung's work or books by trad Wiccans. Whether you think demons and Gods exist or, as Jung did, that they are merely archetypes and parts of your psyche, it's not hard to mess yourself up if you start shooting wildly.

Then again, if I haven't mentioned it, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm a Chaote, meaning I believe nothing is true but everything is ok - if someone wants to shoot wildly, maybe they need to shoot themself in the foot. I still wouldn't hand 'em a gun tho ;)

[WandererInGray]

However, the point isn't whether you believe in demons, it is what dabblers believe in and just what's possible with belief.

And my point is that if I don't believe in them...they have no power over me. Therefore they can't hurt me. *shrugs* Like I said before, what it comes down to is how one perceives magic in the first place.

I'm a Chaote, meaning I believe nothing is true but everything is ok - if someone wants to shoot wildly, maybe they need to shoot themself in the foot. I still wouldn't hand 'em a gun tho ;)

*grins back* And I'm not sure what I am...but I do know that if someone needs shot in the foot that badly, the gun will end up in their hands one way or another.

[Rain Gnosis]

And my point is that if I don't believe in them...they have no power over me. Therefore they can't hurt me. *shrugs* Like I said before, what it comes down to is how one perceives magic in the first place.

Whether you believe Demon X exists, if I believe he does, invoke him, and go insane thinking I'm possessed and then shoot you in the face.. does it affect you?

[WandererInGray]

Being insane you would have shot me anyway. *shrugs*

The "demon" is just a vehicle for the madness. And I don't believe that it is what drove you insane in the first place. If you were mad enough to envision demons, chances are good that there was something more screwy with your brain chemistry than a "demon" could have screwed up.

:D Though it is semantics at this point. Yes, I would be dead either way. But I don't have to die thinking I was killed by some demon possesed person. ;)

Besides, at this point we're mixing insanity and magic, which wasn't my point in the first place. There are plenty of insane people out there killing everyday who've never invoked a "demon" let alone "dabbled" in magics of any sort.

It is not MY job to police someone else's learning. Nor do I believe is it anyone else's....unless said person specifically requests for that kind of control to be laid on them (ie joining a coven or taking a teacher)
Does that mean I think you have to give spells and knowledge to every bunny who asks? Nope. *shakes head* What it does mean is that I don't think it's my place to tell someone else "don't open that door, there's baaaaaaad things behind it."

[mothwench]

well, hey, greetings to germany from germany!
first of all, your english is not so bad, i've read worse from english or american ppl (not at MW! *looks around nervously*).
then, i must say i cannot be dealing with either the likes of silver ravenwolf or alistair crawly. the reason is i don't believe in good and evil, only balance and imbalance.

wenn du mal fragen wegen einem ausdruck hast, den du nicht kennst und den du nicht nachschlagen kannst, kannst du mich pm-en, oder auch sonst. welches bundesland eigentlich? ich sitz hier im odenwald... :elf:

[Ben Trismegistus]

Regardless, I don't think the issue is whether a careless witch can hurt YOU. I certainly don't believe that some dude in California attempting to invoke Enochian demons is going to have any negative impact on me. For me, it comes back to feeling a responsibility for the community at large. If I want neopaganism to gain respect in the world (which I do), I see it as my responsibility to caution inexperienced seekers against doing something that is dangerous/stupid/silly. But, like I said, I won't press the point. If I caution someone, and they ignore me, and do something stupid, then we get back to my definition of "fluffy bunny", one who remains obstinately ignorant despite others' attempts to help him.

Maybe their demon can't hurt me, but a newspaper article with the headline "Crazy Wiccan Blows Self Up In Stupid Demon-Invoking Mishap" wouldn't do much for the community at large.

[Rain Gnosis]

Being insane you would have shot me anyway.

*shakes head* I'm surprised. Many people believe demons can be invoked. I know Toad does, and I'm pretty sure mol does. You won't see many of those people at MW but they do frequent some other more occult and ceremonial focused forums - for example, OccultForums.com and MagesofQabalah.com, which draw more of a "high" magic crowd. Most see demons perhaps not as real entities but as darker parts of the psyche. I'm surprised you're calling people insane for believing differently then yourself.

Who's to say a latent problem wasn't reawakened by some invocation, or by focusing too much on the dark? Who says I wouldn't have continued as a normal functioning part of society if I hadn't followed that path? Who says a minor problem that could've been worked out wasn't exacerbated?

No one said it is YOUR job to police anything, and that certainly wasn't the point of my posts. I, however, am explaining why I might not do it.

[WandererInGray]

I'm surprised you're calling people insane for believing differently then yourself.

*sighs* Rain, I didn't call anyone insane for believing in demons. Please don't make it sound like I did.
You said the person was driven insane by a demon, I was merely pointing out the possibility that they may have been insane in the first place. It didn't have anything to do with believing in demons.

I would think you'd know me better by now than to accuse me of something like that. :rolleyes:

All I said was that if the person was insane, it didn't matter if it was a demon or a more "normal" reason for it. The effects of the shooting would indeed be the same. Heck, I was agreeing with you!

Edited to add:
I thought about this more overnight and wanted to see if I could clarify. Because quite frankly your accusation really bothered me.

Do I think that people who believe in demons are insane? No.

Do I think that if someone goes insane and starts killing people the chances that they are crazy are better than that they were possessed by a demon? Yes.

I'm not sure how that got interpreted into "Wanderer thinks people who believe in demons are insane." *shrugs*

[dr_zeus440]

"Maybe this is harsh, but I think you deserve what you get. *shrugs* If after a few months of study you haven't read at least once that you need to be prepared and/or trained for certain things or even if you've read it and chose to ignore it then when the great smackdown happens, who's fault is it really? I don't see that it's anyone's job to protect people from themselves.

Call me a firm believer in Magical Darwinism, if you will."
-Wanderer :D

Hey, i may not be able to quote properly, but oh well..
I think you're on to something interesting Wanderer :thumbsup:. I agree with basically what i quoted, and i'm intrigued by your idea that what you don't believe in can't harm you. To me, there's several ways that could go (or maybe its true as it is, who knows), maybe the strength of your belief versus the strength of the demons belief in itself or whatever. It also raises a flag in my mind; you might not believe in the postman, but he still delivers the mail. I don't know which way to go with this issue, and it seems like there's more than one. If anyones got any material on this kind of thing, email or PM, i'm very interested.
Just my random thoughts & maybe food for thought for others...

p.s. My opinion; Dark side, shmark side, do what you want as long as you accept the consequences and atleast try to be good most/some of the time.

[banondraig]

greetings! i don't remember who brought up reconstructionism, but they are right. any book about ancient myths will have more of a balance about it. most introductory books about wicca do in fact have a bias toward the light side. it should be easy enough for you to find books about the germanic gods, at least. i know i found some myself when i was in germany, and my german is not that good! :)

ich bin in irak. deutschland fehlt mir. :(

[WandererInGray]

Hey, i may not be able to quote properly, but oh well..

*grins* Just hit the "quote w/reply" button at the bottom of people's posts.

I think you're on to something interesting Wanderer :thumbsup:. I agree with basically what i quoted, and i'm intrigued by your idea that what you don't believe in can't harm you. To me, there's several ways that could go (or maybe its true as it is, who knows), maybe the strength of your belief versus the strength of the demons belief in itself or whatever. It also raises a flag in my mind; you might not believe in the postman, but he still delivers the mail. I don't know which way to go with this issue, and it seems like there's more than one.

I'm not really sure why people always bring up mundane things like that when talking about this. :D But to me the answer is pretty simple.

I believe firmly in the things I can see. Had I never seen a postman, then I might doubt their existance.

I have a fragile belief in things I cannot see. Gods, monsters, aliens. From those I really get to pick and chose based on a number of conditions of the moment and decide on a belief. (Which means, Yes, they can change from day to day.)

I have never encountered a "demon". I have never encountered anyone directly (in RL) who has. Phoenix says he has seen people or heard stories about such things, but I have not experienced them directly.

I believe....that belief is a very powerful thing and to not believe in the energy or whatever it may be that makes up a "demon" can negate any power it may profess to have.

Of course, I could be wrong. *grins and shrugs* Which means I'd get my head bitten off.

One has to believe in curses for them to work. One has to believe in spells to make them work. I don't see why "demons" would be any different.

There are enough RL "demons" to contend with, I don't see the need to add anything else to the list.