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Amethyst Rose
December 2nd, 2003, 02:46 PM
When I went to the pharmacy too pick up a prescription, I got in a conversation with the pharmacist (who seemed like a really nice guy), about babies. He has 3 kids, the youngest being 4 months. He told me that buy following this book (On Becoming Babywise), all of his kids were sleeping through the night by 8 weeks of age. I thought that sounded great! (What parent wouldn't?), so I put in a request for the book at the library. I'm currently in line behind 8 other people to get the book.
However, someone on a breastfeeding mailing list said that this is a horrible book, and that BFAR (breastfeeding after reduction) moms can suffer detrimental effect to their milk supply by following the advice in the book. She also suggeseted doing a search on google for the book and reading reviews, which I did.
Here's a page I found: http://dir.salon.com/mwt/feature/1998/08/cov_06feature.html
I was horrified by what I read....that any parent would put their child through such things....the fact that there was no expert advice that went into the research....the fact that it was all based on teachings from the bible....
I'm curious if anyone here has actually read the book (I'm taking my name off the waiting list), and if anyone has actually followed it?

Autumn
December 2nd, 2003, 02:53 PM
Gary Ezzo has a following among certain groups and an even larger group of detractors...His program is bad for breastfeeding period and bad for babies...William Sears book on "christian parenting" was written as a response to Ezzo like programs, to get it across that AP could be biblical and so forth...

Bread and milk spoil, babies don't! (I mean infants and I don't want to start a debate please!)

AP=attachment parenting.

Biinasu
December 2nd, 2003, 03:12 PM
From what I've seen, Gary's own kids don't talk to him. That says something about his program, doesn't it? http://ezzo.info has some stories and stuff, and seriously, by time I was done with my research on the book, I was clutching my baby doll and shaking my head. ._.; It was very depressing.

Ben Trismegistus
December 2nd, 2003, 03:15 PM
We tried BabyWise and it didn't work all that well, although we were able to get Joey on a feed/wake/sleep schedule which did seem to improve his sleep.

I had no idea it was a Christian thing, but it didn't work for us anyway, so oh well.

Remember that breastfeeding babies don't sleep through the night for a long time - the reason is that babies digest breastmilk quickly, and are hungry faster. Joey is eating baby food three meals a day, and breastfeeding the rest of the time, and he still wakes up 2-3 times a night (he's 7 months old).

Instead of Babywise, go get "WonderWeeks" and "Touchpoints".

MysticMama
December 2nd, 2003, 03:50 PM
Ezzo is a crackpot and was excommunicated from his church I believe. That book is trash. JMNSHO! lol

Get the Baby Book by Sears, The Continuum Concept by Liedloff or Attachment Parenting by Anjou (I think that's how you spell her name).

Mama - in the end follow your intuition...it speaks to your mothering nature and natural instincts. :)

Autumn
December 2nd, 2003, 04:06 PM
Mama - in the end follow your intuition...it speaks to your mothering nature and natural instincts. :)
Ding! Ding! Ding! we have a winner! TRUST YOURSELF!

Ezzo was among my books to avoid post in the thread about good parenting books.

Amethyst Rose
December 2nd, 2003, 04:24 PM
Mama - in the end follow your intuition...it speaks to your mothering nature and natural instincts. :)

Exactly...thats what I couldn't understand about that book. I could never just let my son cry! Having him cry just to "teach" him how to sleep through the night just doesn't make sense. I'd rather never go without sleep again than to let him cry for an hour....I don't know how any parent could do that.


Instead of Babywise, go get "WonderWeeks" and "Touchpoints".
I've gotten WonderWeeks from the library, like you suggested in another thread, and it is so helpful! All of a sudden certain things make sense! Thanks for suggesting it, Ben. :)

Ben Trismegistus
December 2nd, 2003, 04:32 PM
I've gotten WonderWeeks from the library, like you suggested in another thread, and it is so helpful! All of a sudden certain things make sense! Thanks for suggesting it, Ben. :)
My pleasure! Understanding your child's behavior is such a relief, isn't it?

Touchpoints is the same kind of thing - it's written by T. Berry Brazleton, one of the leading child psychologists in the country, and is also about the various levels in a babies mental and physical development.

morrigen
December 2nd, 2003, 07:00 PM
It's astonishing that Ezzo's books aren't withdrawn from sale...his suggestions are nothing more than child abuse. I have demand-fed my 7 month old since birth, and while it's made for some sleep deprivation for his father and I, the little guy is in the 93rd percentile for height and weight (little fatty) and is a happy, outgoing baby. I can't believe some of that guy's suggestions...no wonder his own kids don't speak to him.

FeatherGoblinglimmer
December 2nd, 2003, 07:00 PM
I don't know about all this babywise stuff but when my daughter got into a regular feeding habit i started on making a routine bedtime. Yes it was hard at first. I would never leave her crying more than 15 mins, and she was never in any kind of pain. And i never deprived her of food.As it carried on she got better and better till she didn't whinge at all about being put down for the night. Then she dropped her night eeds all together and she slept right through, and has done since. She doesn't whinge about being put down now.She is 16 months now and goes to bed between 6- 8 o clock at night. She learned that I when i left her i wasn't going to come straight away all the time, that she wasn't going to get what she wanted just from crying.She is now just starting to have tantrums, but compared to over children of the same age i have known she is not at all bad.

Semele
December 2nd, 2003, 07:07 PM
Quack! My favorite is the suggestion that the children NEED to be put in the playpen to develop normally and then the next thing he says is to put them in the playpen for punishment. Isn't that a tad confusing?

Amethyst Rose
December 2nd, 2003, 07:12 PM
I would never leave her crying more than 15 mins,

I'm sorry, but I couldn't even do that. I have a leaving my son crying for even a minute....which unfortunately happens from time to time if I have to prepare the SNS for his feeding. After a minute of crying, when I pick him up he has tears in his eyes and it breaks my heart to see that....it's made me cry on occasion. Ever time, I appologize profusely for leaving him for that long.
I don't think any child should have to cry for longer than a minute or two, or however long it takes for you to get to them....IMO it just teaches the child that you can't be trusted to give them all they need.
Just my opinion....no offence intended.

Semele
December 2nd, 2003, 07:13 PM
I don't know about all this babywise stuff but when my daughter got into a regular feeding habit i started on making a routine bedtime. Yes it was hard at first. I would never leave her crying more than 15 mins, and she was never in any kind of pain.
This is a good example of how to take the ideas and improve upon them. Yes it is ok to let a child cry for a small amount of time if you are sure they aren't hungry, dirty, etc. Basically if all the physical needs are met, they can learn to comfort themselves to sleep and these selfcomfort techniques are very important for later in life. I do agree with the idea behind this theory, just not the strict regimentation. It simply will not work for all children.

Trinity was always on a very regimented feeding schedule from her time in the NICU, where they feed every three hours. She liked the schedule and she eventually wanted to sleep through the night at around 9-10 weeks. We were just lucky with her thought. Trey was a whole other story. I am sure the next one will be totally different. You just have to go with the flow and adapt to the needs of the child.

Mau
December 2nd, 2003, 09:55 PM
Exactly...thats what I couldn't understand about that book. I could never just let my son cry! Having him cry just to "teach" him how to sleep through the night just doesn't make sense. I'd rather never go without sleep again than to let him cry for an hour....I don't know how any parent could do that.




Sometimes it's best to let babies cry themselves to sleep. NEVER let an infant cry for an hour at a time though! I have 3 sons. And if you never let your baby learn how to put his/herself to sleep without you..things get very frustrating. My third son is 3 1/2 mos old..and I have just recently started to let him cry himself to sleep if need be. While he's up he gets changed, fed, we play, I rock him..and when it's sleepy time, just before he falls asleep in my arms, I put him in his basinette to lull himself to sleep. Sometimes he cries, but not longer than 10 minutes..or I go get him. Most of the time he lays down, sucks his hand and coos to himself and dozes off.
He is also on a mommy-scheduled feeding plan. This is because, for some reason, he will rarely let me know when he is hungry..and will sleep through feedings.
Not letting your baby learn how to put themselves to sleep can also lead to another annoying problem down the road...a child that will fall asleep in your arms, but wake up and cry once put into a crib or bed by themselves. I don't know about you..but I don't have 'Serta' or 'Sealy' printed on my butt..lol I am not a bed. Babies can, in time, become dependent on you to sleep properly, and even the most dedicated mommy can grow weary of this.

Amethyst Rose
December 2nd, 2003, 10:22 PM
Sometimes it's best to let babies cry themselves to sleep.

Babies can, in time, become dependent on you to sleep properly,

These are a couple of points that I wanted to address....again, it's all my own opinion...we all have different parenting styles.
I just can't agree with letting your baby cry themselves to sleep. All it does is create stress and an unhappy environment for your baby. My son is slowly learning how to fall asleep by himself , without being left to cry. Generally he nurses to sleep, but if he wakes up and fusses (moves around, makes gunting noises) I don't pick him up unless he cries. A lot of the time he just falls back to sleep.
Whether a baby becomes dependent on you or not, doesn't matter IMO, because they do grow out of it... you're not going to have an 18 year old who needs to be rocked to get to sleep.

Autumn
December 2nd, 2003, 11:30 PM
I am not a straight cry to sleep mom, but I have on occasion rested a hand on a crying but otherwise ok baby, to say "yes I am here, you are not alone but I am not going to pck you up because it is sleeptime" I cannot leave a baby to "cry it out" too hard on my nerves. I have co-slept but now my girls share a full size bed in their own room.

To me, around 10-14 months is when I slowly stop being insta-mom. It's a gradual transition in which I stop and listen to the tone and quality of the cry...and respond as needed...but it's all intuition, I could never write a book about it!

MysticMama
December 3rd, 2003, 01:06 AM
MPO is that if you leave a baby to cry alone, they will eventually stop crying and sleep out of exhaustion. The reason they stop crying and learn to sleep (eventually) on their own is because they learn that their parents won't be there for them and their needs are not important. It breaks their spirit.

The first year particularly, an infant's wants ARE an infant's needs, and ALL babies need parenting at night. Parenting is 24/7/365/18 with occassional time off for good behavior ;) and a much needed break. But if mama's on break, papa is there and baby is never forced to be alone. They are dependent for a REASON.

Read chapter 3 of the Continuum Concept to learn more about what a tiny child experiences when left to cry unconsoled. It will break your heart.

Donning flame-proof cape...cause this is something I just can't understand and refuse to do to my child - who is going on 4 and still sleeps peacefully for a full night of restful slumber tucked between mama & papa in our cozy family bed. :)

FeatherGoblinglimmer
December 3rd, 2003, 06:56 AM
Well my daughters spirit was most certainly not broken!!!

I did it gradually, it wasn't a one night decision of , you know...she's x months old now, time to sleep on her own. No more going to her when she cries. It started of leaving her for a couple of minutes and worked my way up.Up until milly was about 8-9 months old, I was a single mum, there were times i wasn't going to be able to be there because i was doing work in another room, or just something simple like going to the loo or making up a bottle or something.

Till she was 6 months old we lived in a flat that wasn't fit for human inhabitation.It was condemned by the council when they moved us out. The only rooms i felt barely comfortable having her in were the living room and my bedroom. The kitchen was a dump, the ceiling was falling in, and was the size of maybe a small bathroom, if that., and was filthy, no matter how much i tried to clean it. Not from any fault of my own, i might add!

She had to learn that i wasn't going to be able to come to her straight away all the time.She soon learned that i wasn't far away and that i came back as soon as i could.It was hard on both of us, but I most certainly didn't ignore her needs.She was fed, always clean, well loved and played with and huggled. The sleeping habits she had, were much like Trinitys, she had fairly regular feeding times anyway, and the sleep followed.

Mystic Mama, there are parents out there, who used to be like me..There was no dad. Not everyone has the luxury of having papa there to take over! for mum to have a break. The only break i got was when Milly was asleep.Not napping, cos i had other stuff that needed doing. So it was important to develop a good sleeping habit. FOr my own sake as well as hers, i was stressed enough, without having any rest time.



Edited to add: I might jave taken it a little more personally than i should, but i felt i needed to explain a bit more what i did so that I wouldn't be seen in any bad light.

DayDreamer
December 3rd, 2003, 10:11 AM
Gary Ezzo is a quack. His own church has completely debunked his book, and many places are taking it off the shelves. If you want something to read that is more baby friendly, try "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" - much more baby friendly.

A lot of people say that letting a baby cry is good for its lungs. That's just absolute BULL$HIT. If crying is good for the lungs, then bleeding is good for the veins, right? Please.

People expect babies to sleep through the night by a certain age (usualy those who feed formula are even more likely to think this way). I find it interesting. I'm 35 years old and *I* don't sleep through the night. I wake up thirsty. I need to go to the bathroom. I have a nightmare. I hear something odd. I wake up during the night!! Sure, it may not be like clockwork and it may not be EVERY night... but it happens.

If you cry, don't YOU want to be comforted? Why should a BABY deserve less than that? If you woke up in the middle of the night wanting a drink, you get up and go get it, right? A baby can't do that, it needs its PARENT to do it. That's part of PARENTING.

Sleep deprivation is not fun, that's true. Babies ARE inconvenient. That's just part of parenthood. Quite honestly, I believe that there are a lot of people out there that want to immediately put a baby on a parent-led schedule for the PARENT'S convenience... and those people have no business having a baby. Maybe they'd be better off with a pet rock.

FeatherGoblinglimmer
December 3rd, 2003, 10:47 AM
Noone i know thinks that crying is good for a babys lungs.

(quote)People expect babies to sleep through the night by a certain age (usualy those who feed formula are even more likely to think this way)(quote)

What makes you say that?? Have you any bases as to which to say that? I have found that on this site, which is mainly populated by Americans that formula is looked down on. Well it certainly NOT that looked down on in England.You say it as if formula is *bad*. I acknowledge it certainly isn't *as* good as breast milk, but it is a fair substitute. And there are a multitude of women who can't breastfeed their children that have to give formula instead.

Its very disheartening actually, and to be honest it sounds that you think that mothers who give formula are bad parents. It sounds that that is what a lot of people on this site think or at least imply.

My daughter still wakes up in the night sometimes, but she can settle herself... When she was younger, i found it fairly easy to distinguish her 'i'm hungry/thirsty ' cry from 'your not here, you shoud be here, even though i'm just about to fall asleep again cry' . I am sure all mothers can recognise what a babies cry sounds like and what it means after a couple of months.Now my daughter is older she has a beaker in with her at night so if she wants a drink in the night she can get it.

If you cry, don't YOU want to be comforted?

Of course when i cry i want to be comforted, and you can say that a lot of the time with children, and you do comfort them.

But crying is a babies only way of communicating for a long time, a lot of the time when they cry, they aren't really upset, they just want something.So you try to give them that.

Sleep deprivation is not fun,

Everyone knows that sleep deprivation isn't fun. every parent knows that having a baby si hard work and inconvieniant.BUT us parents have to have a life to.Your not just a parent, your a wife/partner, a friend, a PERSON. You need that time to relax now and again.

Daydreamer i am very interested to know what you would consider a parent led schedule is?Would you mind sharing?

DayDreamer
December 3rd, 2003, 11:28 AM
A parent led schedule is one where the PARENT decides that the baby will eat every 3 hours (or every four hours or whatever) like clockwork, will NOT deviate from it and will even ignore a screaming hungry baby because it's not "time" for the baby to eat yet. I've seen it happen, and it disgusts me.

Another part of a parent-led schedule is where a parent expects baby to sleep 8 or more hours at a stretch just because that's what the PARENT wants to be able to do - even realizing that it's not normal for a baby. I've seen this happen to, and the parent actually wonders why the baby is being so "difficult" and not conforming to the schedule.

FeatherGoblinglimmer
December 3rd, 2003, 11:38 AM
Thats fair enough..I can understand that. But some babies like routine and thrive really well in those situations.

I also realise that sleeping for 8 hrs or more isn't *normal* for a baby . There are those out there that do though. My daughter being one.After the initial putting down, which is what she found hard for a while, she wouldn't wake up until morning, or wake up and settle herself.You have to adapt yourself to your own babies habits. That was what i did. My daughter generally wanted feeding every 4 hrs so that is what i did, my daughter does sleep a lot, even now.Iguess lots would call me lucky.

There is nothing wrong with routine if that is what your baby likes. Again there is nothing wrong with not having one either.

Ben Trismegistus
December 3rd, 2003, 12:11 PM
Whew, this is getting heated.

I think the key to effective parenting is balance. Balance between the baby's needs and your needs. I agree that you need to be there for your baby when your baby needs you, but you also need to show your baby that your needs are important too. Otherwise (as is the case with my wife and her mother), your child will grow up with no respect for you, because you've shown yourself to exist for no other reason than to serve baby.

So - if my baby is crying in the middle of the night, I go to him. But conversely, when it's nap time, it's nap time and that's that. If he chooses to lay in his crib and stare at his toys for an hour, that's his choice. But he needs to understand that mommy and daddy are in charge, and sometimes he has to take a nap when he doesn't want to.

MysticMama
December 3rd, 2003, 02:27 PM
Well my daughters spirit was most certainly not broken!!!

I did it gradually, it wasn't a one night decision of , you know...she's x months old now, time to sleep on her own. No more going to her when she cries. It started of leaving her for a couple of minutes and worked my way up.Up until milly was about 8-9 months old, I was a single mum, there were times i wasn't going to be able to be there because i was doing work in another room, or just something simple like going to the loo or making up a bottle or something.

Till she was 6 months old we lived in a flat that wasn't fit for human inhabitation.It was condemned by the council when they moved us out. The only rooms i felt barely comfortable having her in were the living room and my bedroom. The kitchen was a dump, the ceiling was falling in, and was the size of maybe a small bathroom, if that., and was filthy, no matter how much i tried to clean it. Not from any fault of my own, i might add!

She had to learn that i wasn't going to be able to come to her straight away all the time.She soon learned that i wasn't far away and that i came back as soon as i could.It was hard on both of us, but I most certainly didn't ignore her needs.She was fed, always clean, well loved and played with and huggled. The sleeping habits she had, were much like Trinitys, she had fairly regular feeding times anyway, and the sleep followed.

Mystic Mama, there are parents out there, who used to be like me..There was no dad. Not everyone has the luxury of having papa there to take over! for mum to have a break. The only break i got was when Milly was asleep.Not napping, cos i had other stuff that needed doing. So it was important to develop a good sleeping habit. FOr my own sake as well as hers, i was stressed enough, without having any rest time.



Edited to add: I might jave taken it a little more personally than i should, but i felt i needed to explain a bit more what i did so that I wouldn't be seen in any bad light.

Feather I don't see you in a bad light, and I don't think you're a bad parent at all. I think that sometimes people do not have enough information and support to make decisions they might make differently had they known.

I can't even imagine the difficulty of single parenting, and truly - I believe that YOU made the best choices for YOU in YOUR situation. I think we all do, we do the best we can in any given moment and in any given circumstance.

Certainly my post was not directed AT you or anyone else in particular...but it pains me to see parents do things "normally" because that's how they were parented or that's how their culture parents children - which certainly is NOT optimal IMO and experience.

In the end, we may disagree but I won't write anyone off because we make different choices. I *will* however, state my opinion and what's worked for us, as well as any documentation I can to back it up.

Read Our Babies Ourselves - written by anthropologist Meredith Small about how industrialized vs tribal cultures parent. It's very interesting to see the differences and how things turn out. :)

Sending you :hugz: and truly no ill will at all.

fahawk
December 3rd, 2003, 03:49 PM
Everyone has an opinion..and anyone can write/publish a book..doesn't mean though, they know what they are talking about..

I think just plain following your heart..your gut...and what feels right..how each of us would like to be treated...well, a baby is no different...and right..babys do not spoil...never heard of love hurting anyone..

There is a difference between love...and just plain letting a kid be a brat...two very different things...

Though, on the subject i got very little..(and "little" being the key word) sleep with any of my babys...nursed...and was awake most of the night...so there must be something I didn't figure out that would have helped??? I would love to hear things that do help!!

Mau
December 3rd, 2003, 05:34 PM
Ya know..there are different opinions on just about every aspect of parenting. And I think it all comes from different experiences. Someone with one child has the option to go running and lull their baby back to sleep at every whimper..and that's great. But there are others who have more than one child. Personally...I have 3, one is 3 1/2, one is 2 and one is 3 1/2 mos. They are all loved, cared for, fed, changed, played with, read to, and helped. THe older two have nightmares..and I am happy that I taught them to get themselves back to sleep, or else I'd spend all night every night rocking someone for some reason..LOL. Now, this isn't to say I ignore them and let them cry it out..no way. I go to them, and comfort them verbally..tell them it's ok, but it's time to go back to sleep and morning will be here soon. When the baby cries at night, he is fed (if he's hungry), changed, cleaned up, cuddled, his music is turned on next to his bassinette (classical music station) and he is layed back down. I've noticed he almost never fusses himself to sleep when his classical music is on. Even if he doesn't fall right to sleep, he lays quietly and happily till he dozes off. I don't run right in though. Sometimes babies whimper in their sleep for no reason..if it's more than a couple of noises I go check him. But there are times when he just doesn't feel it's time for sleep yet..even though he's fed, changed, clean, yawning and red eyed. And these are the times where I will most certainly let him cry himself to sleep. After a couple minutes, I'll go back in and talk to him, assure him I'm there, pat his butt, make sure his music is on the right volume..and leave. But if 10 minutes later he's still crying..i give in and go get him. With my oldest it was easy to tend to every whimper..and I did. If he wouldn't sleep on his own, I'd bring him in bed with me to sleep. I saw nothing wrong with it. Now he's 3 1/2 and refuses to sleep in his bed. He is still in my bed..and that is the reason I will let my younger two cry.

Shy Hawk
December 16th, 2003, 01:51 AM
People will do what is right for them.
I am counting down till I have my first child, and I have no idea what I will end up doing. But, I wont judge someone for doing what they think is right.
I don't see anything wrong with letting a baby cry for a little while, especially if you have already checked to see that there is nothing wrong (i.e. not hungry, needs changed, too hot or cold, etc). If it lasts a long time I can see that, but if its just a little while because they want you to be around, well I can't see how that's so awful.
However, I must say that I believe that for an infant the rules are different and that an infant shouldn't be left to cry because infants (as I understand it) don't cry for just no reason.
Eventually though....aww ya know.

I slept on my mother's chest till I was 9 months old....getting me into my own bed did prove to be quite a challenge.
Personally, I can't say this for certain till I have my baby, but cosleeping sounds frightening to me. I would be much to afraid that I would sleep too deeply and roll over or something.