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FeatherGoblinglimmer
December 3rd, 2003, 11:09 AM
I have encountered a very anti formula milk atmosphere here on mystic wicks. I have started this thread to find out what people really think of it. I fed my daughter formula milk, i know several others who feed their child formual milk and i would like to hear other opinions on it. And not just bad ones...

I acknowledge that breast is best however formula milk is a * good* alternative. I don't see anything wrong in it , and i certainly don't think you should be ashamed that you have given your children formula.I have seen a few people who have implied that because a parent gave them formula then they are bad parents in more than 1 way, and that they should be ashamed for not breastfeeding.

So i decided to start this thread to see what you guys really think.

I am looking forward to hearing your opinions.

Feather
***

DayDreamer
December 3rd, 2003, 11:37 AM
Formula is wonderful for people who truly need it. This means people who are truly UNABLE to breastfeed. A woman who doesn't WANT to breastfeed or one who is going back to work, or one who stops because her doctor tells her she doesn't have enough milk, etc. - those are NOT people who are unable to breastfeed.

There are SO many myths about breastfeeding that are simply not true. Like a baby being ALLERGIC to breastmilk. With the exception of galactosemia (which is an allergy to ALL milk proteins), NO baby is allergic to breastmilk. The baby may be sensitive or reactionary to something in the mother's DIET, but the baby is NOT allergic to the breastmilk.

Formula is NOT "just as good" as breastmilk. It's a very poor substitute. I fully recognize that for some babies, it is the only choice. There ARE situations where a woman should not or can not nurse (certain medications or medical conditions, etc.). The problem I see is when women just give up on nursing without actually making an effort. The first few weeks can be EXTREMELY difficult. Asking a doctor for help is almost certainly SUICIDE for a breastfeeding relationship. Why? DOCTORS ARE NOT TRAINED IN BREASTFEEDING AT ALL. Doctors are trained about the physiology of the breast, and abnormalities like cancer and cysts and such. Nursing education should be done by a certified lactation consultant, NOT by a doctor in most cases.

Formula can lead to childhood obesity. It can lead to diabetes. It can lead to a HOST of health problems. Breastfeeding can actually reduce the risk of many of them. Did you know that nursing a child for two years can dramatically reduce your risk of breast cancer? It also reduces the baby's risk of ear infections. I don't have time to post the links, but there are many. To see some of them, go to www.breastfeeding.com

I am not saying that formula is evil. I am not saying that parents who feed formula are evil. I freely admit that I gave formula to ALL THREE of my boys - I did not breastfeed. That was due to a lack of education. Now that I know better, if I were to have a baby I would breastfeed for AT LEAST the first year. Education is the key.

Best ways to feed a baby:

Breastmilk directly from the mother
Breastmilk in a bottle, expressed by the mother
Breastmilk from a certified milk bank
Formula

Formula is a distant FOURTH, not second best. There is no way for a lab to reproduce the immunities found in breastmilk. Breastmilk actually adapts to the needs of the individual baby with EVERY SINGLE feeding. There's no way formula can do that. They can add all the enzymes and proteins and whatever that they want to... but it will still and always be an artificial substitute for something that is FREE, natural, and perfect for babies.

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 11:44 AM
I don't think parents who feed their babies formula are bad parents, however, if you are able to breastfeed and choose not to, I do believe you are making a mistake.

Breastmilk is a healthier choice.
Breastmilk provides strong immunization; breastfed babies catch fewer colds, get less strep, have fewer ear infections, etc.
When breastfed babies do get sick, they tend to recover quicker: A cold vs. strep, for example.
Breastfeeding protection is long-term. In studies comparing formula-fed babies to babies who were breastfed for two years, childhood leukemia rates were about 20% lower among breastfed babies.
SIDS is ten times more common among formula-fed babies.
Jaw and tooth development is better among breastfed babies, because bottles make babies work their jaws less.
There is no such thing as allergy to breastmilk, whereas many babies have difficulty with formula allergies.
Related to allergies; breastfed babies are almost never constipated, a problem that often occurs in formula-fed babies.
When infants spit up, breastmilk will wash out and formula will stain. Formula spit-up will also smell worse.
Mothers who breastfeed lose weight and regain shape more quickly than mothers who do not, because of the hormones released by breastfeeding, which help the uterus regain its former shape.
Breastfeeding moms don't have to carry supplies with them to feed their babies, they never have to worry about sterilization or refrigeration, and they never have to wash bottles.
Breastfeeding costs nothing.
Breastfeeding releases the same hormone as orgasm (oxytocin); it is soothing and pleasurable for the mother.
Breastfeeding moms don't go through the agony of "drying up."
Studies indicate that breastfed babies have higher IQs, on average, than formula-fed babies.


Given all of these advantages, I find no compelling or important reasons to formula-feed. I especially think the "convenience" argument is wrong-headed, because breastfeeding is the most convenient thing there is -- you always have all the needed "equipment" with you. I recognize that not every mom is able to breastfeed, but to simply throw the opportunity away is, as I said, a mistake. Lots of wonderful, good, loving parents make mistakes -- all of us, in fact ;) -- and those mistakes don't necessarily prevent our kids from turning out great. But I do not apologize for my stance.

FeatherGoblinglimmer
December 3rd, 2003, 11:49 AM
Well i don't know about there not being allergies to breast milk. I couldn't have my mothers. She has always said that there was something in it that i was allergic to and that was why she didn't beastfeed me. But then again my mother isn't really the most trusted person in my opinion( family issues i won't go in to).

We don't have breast milk banks here in England. We do have health visitors though, every woman and baby is referred to one after they are discharged from a midwifes care.So if a woman has a problem they can go to her rather than a doctor.

The reason that i didn't breastfeed in the end was down to one of the nursing assistants in the hospital.The midwife had told me to buzz her if i needed help doing it, and so i buzzed her during the night once to help. One of the nursing assistants came and when I asked her to get her and why she said that i had been in hospital long enough to know how to do it by now.I didn't bother arguing my point. I was still to emotionally drained for that so i just fed her a bottle of formula.I hadn't breastfed from birth, in fact the experience i have just related was only my second time.

DayDreamer
December 3rd, 2003, 11:58 AM
You were likely sensitive to something your mother was eating. THAT is what causes babies to react negatively to breastmilk. Probably dairy, wine, chocolate, or caffeine. Those are the most common triggers.

I'm sorry your experience was so negative. Some health care professionals act as if mothers and babies should instinctively and immediately just KNOW how to have a successful breastfeeding relationship.... which is just nuts!


Well i don't know about there not being allergies to breast milk. I couldn't have my mothers. She has always said that there was something in it that i was allergic to and that was why she didn't beastfeed me. But then again my mother isn't really the most trusted person in my opinion( family issues i won't go in to).

Ben Trismegistus
December 3rd, 2003, 12:04 PM
I agree with what's been said about how breastfeeding is best.

But I also want to say in no uncertain terms that if breastfeeding doesn't work for you, it just doesn't work, and you shouldn't beat yourself up about it, or allow others to make you feel guilty.

I know four women (my wife included) who have had babies within the past year. Two have breastfed successfully -- one was weaned through mutual decision around 8 months, and my wife is still breastfeeding our son (he's 7 months old). The other two, after a month of trying, were forced to give up breastfeeding and switch to formula, at the advice of their doctors AND their lactation consultants. One was simply unable to produce enough milk for her baby, and the other was never able to form a latch with her baby. She continued to pump and bottle for several months.

And my son gets one bottle of formula a day. Despite three meals a day of solid foods (well, mushy foods at least), and my wife's healthy milk supply, we still need to supplement with one extra bottle of formula, which we send with him to day care. I don't feel bad about this at all.

I just don't want for my friends who don't breastfeed to feel like they're somehow *failures* as mothers. There have been several people who have attempted to make them feel that they are.

FYI - most doctors agree now that the primary time to breastfeed is the first 8 months. Babies get the majority of antibodies through the mother's milk in the first 6-8 months, and after that, breast milk no longer has health advantages. If you wish to breast feed longer, that's entirely a personal choice, but there is no health detriment to weaning at 8 months or after.

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 12:04 PM
Well i don't know about there not being allergies to breast milk. I couldn't have my mothers. She has always said that there was something in it that i was allergic to and that was why she didn't beastfeed me. But then again my mother isn't really the most trusted person in my opinion( family issues i won't go in to).There are no allergies to breastmilk. There are rare genetic disorders that would cause the inability to process any milk protein, or certain amino acids, but you would know if you had one of those.

Probably you had gas or an upset tummy and someone told your mother something false. My son once got awfully sick when I ate a garlic pizza! :sick:



The reason that i didn't breastfeed in the end was down to one of the nursing assistants in the hospital.The midwife had told me to buzz her if i needed help doing it, and so i buzzed her during the night once to help. One of the nursing assistants came and when I asked her to get her and why she said that i had been in hospital long enough to know how to do it by now.I didn't bother arguing my point. I was still to emotionally drained for that so i just fed her a bottle of formula.I hadn't breastfed from birth, in fact the experience i have just related was only my second time.
It is a shame you were discouraged by that bitch. My midwife gave me a nursing lesson and then followed up a few days later with a second "checkup" lesson. I also contacted La Leche League and they are the most helpful people in the world. Maybe we'd take to it more naturally if we saw our mothers, sisters, cousins, neighbors, co-workers breastfeeding, but we don't, so of course we need help, and without help, there is a failure rate. I am sorry you were mis-treated.

DayDreamer
December 3rd, 2003, 12:23 PM
Actually, this is wrong information. The antibodies last for as long as the breastfeeding relationship lasts. Of course, there are fewer once the baby is no longer exclusively breastfed because the baby is no longer dependent on the breastmilk for all of its nutrition.

The WHO recommends breastfeeding for a MINIMUM of two years. That is because there ARE health benefits to BOTH mother and baby. I can come back later and provide links, if you like.



FYI - most doctors agree now that the primary time to breastfeed is the first 8 months. Babies get the majority of antibodies through the mother's milk in the first 6-8 months, and after that, breast milk no longer has health advantages. If you wish to breast feed longer, that's entirely a personal choice, but there is no health detriment to weaning at 8 months or after.

Ben Trismegistus
December 3rd, 2003, 01:26 PM
Actually, this is wrong information. The antibodies last for as long as the breastfeeding relationship lasts. Of course, there are fewer once the baby is no longer exclusively breastfed because the baby is no longer dependent on the breastmilk for all of its nutrition.

The WHO recommends breastfeeding for a MINIMUM of two years. That is because there ARE health benefits to BOTH mother and baby. I can come back later and provide links, if you like.I stand corrected. I just found this article stating that the CDC recommends breastfeeding for at least one year. My apologies.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/65/72559.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

The American Academy of Pediatrics states that the optimum length of breastfeeding is 6 months. So it appears that there's still some disagreement in the medical community about this.

Flar's Freyja
December 3rd, 2003, 01:58 PM
What they all said. Unless a mother really can't nurse, the breast is best. I nursed all three of my boys with different experiences. Number One had growth spurts that my milk couldn't keep up with until he was finished with them - hence, tons of milk with nowhere to go. But we lasted nine months. Number Two, the largest, was a poor nurser who couldn't stay awake long enough to finish eating and spit up most of what he did eat. That lasted two months - but formula feeding was worse, because he was apparently allergic and the pediatrician didn't figure that out until we went to cow's milk. The poor kid had a constant rash and smelled like a little hospital most of the time. Number Three was so good that I could feed him while dusting and vacuuming and we lasted almost a year.

It's said that breastfeeding prevents ear infections and it seems to be true. Number Two was the only one who ever had a bad one, and it was only once. The other two never did. All three are now in their twenties and have always been in good general health.

I also find it strange that all of them seem to prefer small breasted women............

MysticMama
December 3rd, 2003, 02:06 PM
Ditto. Breastmilk IS the best, but formula is a multi-billion dollar industry and I have HUGE problems with the way it's marketed. It's not second best, it's fourth - as pointed out above. Check out Nestle boycott on google for some interesting reading.

I don't think it's something to be ashamed of, but I do wish that more mothers were informed, empowered and supported to do this simple act of nature.

If we didn't have an alternative all mothers would breastfeed, and did. KWIM? (I realize there are some mothers who CAN'T, but even with a low milk supply and latching problems it IS possible for most.) Ask me how I know...we battled for nearly 4 months before getting the hang of it. Thanks be to Goddess for La Leche League.

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 02:07 PM
I stand corrected. I just found this article stating that the CDC recommends breastfeeding for at least one year. My apologies.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/65/72559.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

The American Academy of Pediatrics states that the optimum length of breastfeeding is 6 months. So it appears that there's still some disagreement in the medical community about this.
These are very conservative recommendations. Don't forget these are the same people who, until quite recently, claimed that formula was the equal of breastmilk despite loads of evidence to the contrary.

The long-term health benefits have been studied based on one or two years' of breastfeeding. There have been, to my knowledge, no long-term studies comparing six months to two years (or whatever).

The antibody thing works simply: Anything the mother is exposed to, she naturally develops antibodies to. The antibodies enter her milk and the baby ingests them. It's pretty basic, biologically, and will continue as long as nursing continues.

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 02:11 PM
Ditto. Breastmilk IS the best, but formula is a multi-billion dollar industry and I have HUGE problems with the way it's marketed. It's not second best, it's fourth - as pointed out above. Check out Nestle boycott on google for some interesting reading.

I don't think it's something to be ashamed of, but I do wish that more mothers were informed, empowered and supported to do this simple act of nature.

If we didn't have an alternative all mothers would breastfeed, and did. KWIM? (I realize there are some mothers who CAN'T, but even with a low milk supply and latching problems it IS possible for most.) Ask me how I know...we battled for nearly 4 months before getting the hang of it. Thanks be to Goddess for La Leche League.
Latching problems can be nearly impossible for the working mother to overcome. The problem with poor latchers is that when you give them formula, they discover a source of food that doesn't require latching.

There's a supplement feeder that you wear on the breast and put it in the baby's mouth with the nipple; it's a tube with formula in it. The baby only gets the extra formula if it latches and sucks properly on the nipple. This will train recalcitrant latchers BUT if you sometimes give a bottle (i.e. if you work during the day) the baby will usually refuse to be bothered. This is what happened to my goddaughter.

Autumn
December 3rd, 2003, 02:34 PM
I regret the huge amount of misinformation that continues to crash breatfeeding relationships. This tradgedy can be laid squarely at the feed of formula companies.

It isn't that we look down on formula feeding or think it makes you a bad parent...it's that we get so frustrated that so many breastfeeding relationships get ruined by careless health workers and by formula company propaganda. Maybe it gets misdirected against the victims of the propaganda at times, for my part, I apologise, I don't want you to feel guilty that you wound up formula feeding I want you to become part of the solution! How?

If you know someone who is having a tough time say "I'm sorry, I won't be much help, but let me help you contact a LaLeche League Leader or lactation consultant..."

guilt is useless...just let go...your kids are healthy! you can prevent what happened to you from happening to other moms...spread the word..."reach for the phone before you reach for the bottle" Keep an up to date phone number for your local LLL leader in your address book and give it and a warm misty eyed hug to a mom who is having a tough time and think..."If I knew then what I know now"

Ben Trismegistus
December 3rd, 2003, 02:41 PM
The antibody thing works simply: Anything the mother is exposed to, she naturally develops antibodies to. The antibodies enter her milk and the baby ingests them. It's pretty basic, biologically, and will continue as long as nursing continues.
I understand all of this, of course, and my wife is dedicated to breastfeeding for as long as it works for both of them.

But doesn't there come a time when the baby begins creating his own antibodies, and therefore any antibodies delivered through breast milk become redundant? (I don't know, just asking)

MysticMama
December 3rd, 2003, 02:41 PM
Latching problems can be nearly impossible for the working mother to overcome. The problem with poor latchers is that when you give them formula, they discover a source of food that doesn't require latching.

There's a supplement feeder that you wear on the breast and put it in the baby's mouth with the nipple; it's a tube with formula in it. The baby only gets the extra formula if it latches and sucks properly on the nipple. This will train recalcitrant latchers BUT if you sometimes give a bottle (i.e. if you work during the day) the baby will usually refuse to be bothered. This is what happened to my goddaughter.

Yes we used an SNS initially, I know all about them. It's a problem because when you start supplementing with a bottle, baby often will refuse the breast because it's a different latch and the milk let down works differently than a bottle. Formula in a bottle comes out much more easily (it will just drip out) but the breast usually needs suction to draw the milk out (unless you have leaky breasts or a strong let down).

Working moms have it difficult if they have nursing problems. But hopefully they have 6 - 12 weeks maternity leave to work on it. I also know a lot of working mothers who pump exclusively for their infants, and I commend them for it. That's a LOT of work and dedication, and I hated pumping myself!

MysticMama
December 3rd, 2003, 02:44 PM
I regret the huge amount of misinformation that continues to crash breatfeeding relationships. This tradgedy can be laid squarely at the feed of formula companies.

It isn't that we look down on formula feeding or think it makes you a bad parent...it's that we get so frustrated that so many breastfeeding relationships get ruined by careless health workers and by formula company propaganda. Maybe it gets misdirected against the victims of the propaganda at times, for my part, I apologise, I don't want you to feel guilty that you wound up formula feeding I want you to become part of the solution! How?

If you know someone who is having a tough time say "I'm sorry, I won't be much help, but let me help you contact a LaLeche League Leader or lactation consultant..."

guilt is useless...just let go...your kids are healthy! you can prevent what happened to you from happening to other moms...spread the word..."reach for the phone before you reach for the bottle" Keep an up to date phone number for your local LLL leader in your address book and give it and a warm misty eyed hug to a mom who is having a tough time and think..."If I knew then what I know now"

Yeah, what she said! :)

Autumn
December 3rd, 2003, 02:47 PM
Babies make antibodies from the beginning, it's just that mom has had x more years of experience at it and a faster response to some pathogens...

like "ahh rhinovirus256, not that diffrent from rhinovirus 253, we'll start with those antibodies then roll out one for 256 in a few hours when they're ready" Whereas baby has to say "this is a...virus...a rhinovirus...antibodies under construction for this"

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 02:50 PM
I understand all of this, of course, and my wife is dedicated to breastfeeding for as long as it works for both of them.

But doesn't there come a time when the baby begins creating his own antibodies, and therefore any antibodies delivered through breast milk become redundant? (I don't know, just asking)
I think the immune system is developing antibodies by about 3-6 months of age (my son is a teen now, I forget). But by nursing, the baby gets antibodies without exposure, therefore without risk of getting sick. We all develop antibodies to things we're exposed to, including things we end up catching; the nursing baby gets extra.

btw, I nursed for 19 months. All this talk about 2 years didn't stop me from giving up when my son became too aggressive for me to handle.

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 02:53 PM
Working moms have it difficult if they have nursing problems. But hopefully they have 6 - 12 weeks maternity leave to work on it. I also know a lot of working mothers who pump exclusively for their infants, and I commend them for it. That's a LOT of work and dedication, and I hated pumping myself!
My goddaughter was a top-feeder, and she didn't start losing weight and get properly diagnosed with a breastfeeding problem until a week or two before her mom went back to work. So it never quite worked out.

As to pumping, I never could do it. I had a friend who could sit down and fill an 8 oz bottle in a few minutes. I could get maybe an ounce after 20 minutes. I didn't have an electric pump, just a hand pump. Still! I need the stimulation of a real baby to let down.

MysticMama
December 3rd, 2003, 04:28 PM
My goddaughter was a top-feeder, and she didn't start losing weight and get properly diagnosed with a breastfeeding problem until a week or two before her mom went back to work. So it never quite worked out.

As to pumping, I never could do it. I had a friend who could sit down and fill an 8 oz bottle in a few minutes. I could get maybe an ounce after 20 minutes. I didn't have an electric pump, just a hand pump. Still! I need the stimulation of a real baby to let down.

What diagnosis did she have? That's really unfortunate in their case! :(

Pumping - I've used both, and a good hand pump is pretty effective. I have/used the Avent Isis, which is a fantastic brand and quality. Still, my dd more effectively drained my breast once we got the hang of it. ;)

Nursing her as a toddler was sort of like nursing a circus act, and some of it wasn't fun but we worked through it. lol

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 04:53 PM
What diagnosis did she have? That's really unfortunate in their case! Weight loss and malnutrition.

Basically (you probably know, but just to stay informative for everyone), milk in the breast looks "upsidedown." The first milk is skim milk, and then behind it is cream. A "topfeeder" is a baby who drinks a little and then nods off. The baby won't work hard at sucking, and so is only getting skim milk. The only way of knowing there is a problem is when the baby starts to lose weight.

Unfortunately, sometimes babies gain weight before they start to lose. I don't know why. So when the first checkup comes around, the baby is gaining and breastfeeding is deemed successful. The mother doesn't know there is a problem and so a nursing consultant isn't brought in. This is what happened.


Nursing her as a toddler was sort of like nursing a circus act, and some of it wasn't fun but we worked through it. lol
I couldn't handle it. Sometimes it was like holding a steering wheel; I'd have him in the air by his ankles while he attached to the breast. He pinched and tugged, and he humped my leg, which was just too horrible. If you've been on the Ritalin folder, you know he was intensely hyperactive. No fun!

Mau
December 3rd, 2003, 05:10 PM
I bottle fed all three of my boys. The first two out of choice..the third I pretty much have to. He has a cleft palate and cannot nurse..he needs specific and very large nipples on his bottles to be able to eat right, along with a special bottle that I have to squeeze as he cannot get the correct suction to draw milk out on his own. I *could* have started pumping for him, but chose not to. This also goes along with why I chose not to breast feed my other two boys. I have EXTREMELY sensitive nipples..lol..honestly. I cannot stand them even being slightly touched for any reason. So I went with formula. And I have no regrets about it. My first two bottle fed boys are perfectly healthy. My oldest has an immune system strong as steel, he rarely ever gets sick.

Semele
December 3rd, 2003, 05:41 PM
Wel, I may be the unpopular person here, but I am going to say my piece anyway.

Yes, there is absolutely no argument that breast is best. However it is a very personal choice and to imply that people are making a poor choice for their child when choosing bottle over breast is wrong and hurtful. Chicken is healthier than red meat but if you choose a steak over a nice grilled chicken the waitress doesn't cluck her tongue and judge you for making the least perfect choice and niether should a nurse or other health care provider do when you choose to bottle feed.

Fact is that a child who is exclusively breastfed can suffer malnutrition and vitamin deficiency if the mother isn't following a good helathy diet. Formula may smell worse when spit up and it may stain, but it does contain all the necessary protiens and vitamins and minerals that a child needs to thrive. Sure there are circumstances where there are allergies to formula but that isn't as frequent as you might think.

The comment about formula feeding leading to obesity really suprised me. I would be interested to see some research on that comment. I have never heard such a thing. Adding cereal to formula without the advice of a doctor can lead to obesity but just formula alone?

I just hate to hear people being so adament about breastfeeding that they judge people if they CHOOSE not to for whatever reason. There are so many choices we make regarding our children, that this one shouldn't make us feel as though we have failed as parents. There is plenty of time for that later. ;)

Kids can and do thrive with formula without lasting harmful side effects.

Ben Trismegistus
December 3rd, 2003, 05:53 PM
The comment about formula feeding leading to obesity really suprised me. I would be interested to see some research on that comment. I have never heard such a thing. Adding cereal to formula without the advice of a doctor can lead to obesity but just formula alone?Semele,

I agree with your whole post. But I do have the info on this formula/obesity thing, so I might as well present it.

This is from a Harvard Medical School study from 2001, which came up with the following findings:

Percentage of Teenage Obesity

Fed Breast Milk Entirely Or Mostly As Babies

Girls: 4%
Boys: 7%

Fed Infant Formula Entirely Or Mostly As Babies

Girls: 6%
Boys: 11%

So there you have it. It's not a huge increase in percentage, but it's there.

More info here: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/05.17/06-breastfeeding.html

VelvetBlade
December 3rd, 2003, 06:48 PM
I have 4 children...I formula fed the first 3 and breastfed the 4th. I do wish I had breastfed all of them, as much for the convenience as anything else. No bottles to wash and sterilize, formula to measure and worry about spoiling if you're going off for the day. It's just so much easier to be able to nurse when you need to.

As far as the children being healthier...I can't attest to that personally. My oldest, who was formula fed is healthy as a horse (he's my Marine), my next two both have asthma, as does my youngest who was breastfed. The only one who rarely seems to get colds etc is the oldest.

~AW

BethieRose
December 3rd, 2003, 07:16 PM
Basically, I don't want a parent to feel guilty for choosing formula. It's a choice that's available to most parents these days. However, I do not think it should be a choice. I think that formula should be kept in reserve for those babies who SERIOUSLY need it, not just because mom and dad have chosen it.

FWIW, both of my children were fed formula at some time or another. My dd from about 8 months to a year was ffed. My ds from about 2.5 months on to his death at 22 months was ffed. My ds had severe health issues, including an inability to suck or swallow...I decided to bond with him rather than the breastpump. I don't feel guilty for giving them formula. I do feel that I am better educated about formula and the industry of formula now, and I have no desire to throw money at that industry.

Autumn
December 3rd, 2003, 08:45 PM
I don't judge those who feed formula...it is a very personal choice, Semele is correct there. We do however live in a culture where formula feeding has been the norm for about 50 years or so. We are working to change that.

Whatever a mother chooses I want her to know the truth...That formula companies will use fair means or foul means to convince her to use their products over breatmilk which is free. They have millions of dollars to do this with and have apperently decided the best way to do this in first world nations is to convince women that breastfeeding is painful, inconvient, embarressing, and that it ties you down. They give out incorrect info on breatfeeding that they know will lead to failure in some cases. they happily supply formula to breastfeeding mothers "just in case" Oy, maybe I should stop ranting here...

In short, if I can get good and correct info to mothers that I come in contact with and promote breastfeeding to them before the babies are born then I can rest in peace whatever they choose to do, because they will have made an informed choice.

Edited to add, If some health concearn like my having to be on a med incompatible with breastfeeding (chemo for example) I would certainly formula feed and I would not feel guilty about it, these are circumstanses that formula is made for...and just like the choice to end a pregnancy, when the chips are down it's the woman's choice alone. I want the info and the help availible for all...but it is still the mother's choice in the end!

Cappy
December 3rd, 2003, 09:56 PM
I had no problem with formula until my sister had a baby and we both got educated on breastfeeding vs formula. (the book we both liked best was "so THAT'S what they're for!")
We read that in 1999 over 10 formula companies had to recall their formula because of ingrediants that can cause DEATH (ie. salmonela, GLASS, e-coli). Not only is breastfeeding easier, cheaper & healthier it's in my oppinion the natural way to feed kids. Were mamals, mamals make milk, babies drink milk. (2+2=4) :dinnertim

Semele
December 3rd, 2003, 10:40 PM
They have millions of dollars to do this with and have apperently decided the best way to do this in first world nations is to convince women that breastfeeding is painful, inconvient, embarressing, and that it ties you down. They give out incorrect info on breatfeeding that they know will lead to failure in some cases. they happily supply formula to breastfeeding mothers "just in case" Oy, maybe I should stop ranting here...


I am not sure what you are referring to, but in my experience the two major formula companies out there give very accurate information on breastfeeding. Similac, for example, has a very detailed booklet that teaches correct vs. incorrect latch on complete with illustrations. They provide in their gift bags, bottles and bags to store pumped breastmilk along with information regarding how long it can be kept at different temperatures. They list the numbers and web addresses for La leache' league and several other breastfeeding friendly organizations. They completely confirm that breastmilk is the best choice for most infants.

Yes, they do promote the improvements made to the formula such as the newer Lipil protiens in Enfamil and the ADA and DHE protiens added to the Similac. Are they trying to duplicate the natural protiens found in breastmilk? You better believe it. Do they have some ulterior motive for doing this..yeah, to make their product more like human breastmilk, which is for the benefit of the infants using the formula. Yes it may increase their sales, but they are not putting forth false information regarding the safety and completeness of their product. They are regulated by the FDA.

Also there is a product called human milk fortifier that is often recommended for preterm infants. This is a powder that is added to the breastmilk to increase its caloric value. It is made by Enfamil. They do not charge for this product, it is complimentary, even to those parents who never spend a dime on thier formula. Yeah, they sound pretty dirty and underhanded to me.

Ben, thanks for the info regarding the obesity statistics. Yes, those are some pretty narrow margins. I would have to wonder about other contributing factors. Obviously there would be other variables to consider other than the formula vs. breastmilk issue. At any rate I don't personally see those numbers as significant enough to sway a decision.

In response to the comment that formula should be reserved for only those who need it, Wow..not even sure how to comment on that. Aren't there thousands if not millions of products availiable to those who choose to use them? Examples would be multivitamins or high octane gas. I mean these were producst designed to improve something in our lives and yet we don't necessarily need them. Should only those with an established vitamin deficiency be allowed to take a supplement?

There are cultures who find nursing in public or even around any other people to be extremelly wrong. In fact it is a part of their religious upbringing and culture that they not do so. Are we now going to enforce our judgement on them and tell them that they have no right, religious or otherwise to use formula?

Am I still in America?

DebLipp
December 3rd, 2003, 11:13 PM
I am not sure what you are referring to, but in my experience the two major formula companies out there give very accurate information on breastfeeding. Similac, for example, has a very detailed booklet that teaches correct vs. incorrect latch on complete with illustrations. They provide in their gift bags, bottles and bags to store pumped breastmilk along with information regarding how long it can be kept at different temperatures. They list the numbers and web addresses for La leache' league and several other breastfeeding friendly organizations. They completely confirm that breastmilk is the best choice for most infants.

The Nestle boycott is all about infant formula. Nestle is the world's 2nd largest food producing corporation and the world's largest formula producer. The boycott, which has been going on for over twenty years, is (to my knowledge) the only corporate boycott endorsed by the World Health Organization (WHO -- part of the U.N.). At one point, the boycott was stopped when Nestle agreed to comply with the terms presented by the boycotters. About 3 years later, WHO inspectors found that Nestle had ceased to comply and the boycott was reactivated.

The problem is not in the U.S. but in 3rd world countries. Because breastfeeding has increased in the U.S., formula producers target poorer countries to make up their sales.

Nestle uses sales representatives who dress in uniforms that closely mimic nurses uniforms, which is, of course, meant to be deceptive. These representatives give free samples of formula in maternity wards. They encourage women to use the formula right away. Often, by the time the free sample has run out, the woman's own breast milk has dried up, creating a need for the product. Only then do the women find out that the cost of formula is very high, considering the poverty in which they live. Often, these women do not have access to refrigeration. They over-dilute formula to make it last because of the cost. The dilution and lack of sterilization cause diarrhea and malnutrition. The infant mortality rate for formula-fed babies in third world countries is triple that of breastfed babies.

Here is some more information: http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html

Autumn
December 3rd, 2003, 11:20 PM
I remember specifically being told to pull a booklet out of Enfamil bags a year and a half or so ago that quoted Kathleen Higgens out of context, to make it seem hard to breast feed, and that had incorrect latch information that would lead to sore nipples.

We have to open formula bags and check the expiration dates on the formula always! We do indeed find outdates even on recent shipments! AND they do not give the stuff away out of the goodness of their hearts...it's product placement...if the fortifyer you used was an enfamil product and you choose to stop breastfeeding, or need to supplement you are more likely to choose an enfamil formula.

Specifically what cultures look down on breastfeeding?

I never said formula should be limited...but I do desperately want to deal with the idea that formula feeding is an equal choice. Sometimes it's the right choice and it does need to be left to each mother each time, but these mothers need to know what they are choosing.

Edited to add when you look at pictures of breastfeeding mothers in freebee mags(like OB offices give out) they often show her in her pajamas or nightgown with most of her breast visible and it's pretty clear that she has to show it all when she latches or unlatches the baby. (breastfeeding ties you down)

~*Ginger*~
December 3rd, 2003, 11:32 PM
The way I figure it, is...

If you want to give them formula...give them formula.

If you want to give them milk...give them milk.

Autumn
December 3rd, 2003, 11:47 PM
Death for formula fed babies twice as likely FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 2003

New analysis finds doubled death rate among formula-fed American infants

The December issue of Natural Family Online magazine
(www.naturalfamilyonline.com (http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/)) features a new analysis finding that
formula
feeding doubles infant death rates for babies in the United States.
Heath
educator and author Dr. Linda Folden Palmer's report, based on several
decades of research from the United States and across the world, reveals
that the use of infant formula costs the lives of an estimated American
9,335 babies each year.

According to Palmer's report, formula feeding costs American babies more
than four additional lives per thousand. The final relative risk for
formula
feeding comes out to 2 - double the risk of death for American infants
who
are fed with formula, compared with babies who are fed naturally.

Based on the current U.S. infant death rate of 6.7 and an average
breastfeeding rate of 50%, the report shows that the American infant
mortality rate would climb to 9.4 if all infants were formula-fed and
would
drop to 4.7 if all were breastfed.

"Infant formula was designed to be a medical nutritional tool for babies
who
are unable to breastfeed," Palmer said. "Formula does not fully meet the
nutritional and immunity needs of infants. It leaves their immune
systems
flailing."

Both condensed and full, referenced versions of Dr. Palmer's report are
available at
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/...ula-report.htm. (http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/BF/200312-formula-report.htm.)

The report's conclusions are derived from an examination of the
available
scientific research on infant mortality in the United States and across
the
world. Research included in Palmer's report includes studies showing
artificial feeding's impact on overall infant death rates in developing
and
undeveloped countries; studies providing comparative illness occurrence
rates for many illnesses and disorders in the United States and other
industrialized nations; and reports examining superior survival rates
and
decreased illness rates among breastfed infants. The report assembles
these
statistics to build a firm picture of the ratio of infant deaths for
U.S.
formula-fed babies against those who are breastfed.

The report cites results from numerous studies illustrating the negative
impact of formula feeding on the health and survival of infants with
various
illnesses and health problems, including Sudden Infant Death Syndrome
(SIDS); heart, circulatory and respiratory failure; diarrhea;
respiratory
illnesses; cancer; and low birth-weight and pre-term babies.

Illness and death rates of breastfed babies who receive formula
supplementation are much closer to those of fully formula-fed babies,
Palmer
's report notes. Numerous studies referenced in the report reveal
conclusively that the longer breastfeeding lasts, the greater the
measurable
difference in illness and death rates.

Available evidence strongly contradicts commonly made assertions that
formula feeding does not risk lives in industrialized nations where
education and medical advances prevent increased deaths, Palmer said.

"Some insist that the blame for the United States' relatively high
infant
death rate lies with underprivileged communities," Palmer said. "But
after
examining the available research, we see that elevated death rates among
U.S. blacks cannot be attributed to poverty. Hispanic Americans rank
similarly to African-American populations for socio-economic factors,
but
they match non-Hispanic whites in their lower infant mortality rates.
The
difference is not socio-economic; the difference is in rates of formula
use
versus breastfeeding."

For both condensed and full, referenced versions of Dr. Palmer's report,
see
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/...ula-report.htm. (http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/BF/200312-formula-report.htm.) See
Natural
Family Magazine at www.naturalfamilyonline.com. (http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com./)



__________________

Consumer Representative on the Breastfeeding Committee for Canada and Saskatchewan

BethieRose
December 4th, 2003, 11:02 AM
Specifically what cultures look down on breastfeeding?

The American culture, for one. How many moms in the US have been told that they can't nurse in a store, it's against store policy? That it's disgusting to feed their baby in public, that they should take it to the restroom?

Just check through the headlines for the past year or so and you'll find many cases where breastfeeding has been challenged in a public place and the mom had to take the challenger to court to prove her right to bf in public. Why should we have to do that?

I've had mostly good experiences, but still, I've gotten dirty looks from people when I breastfed in public. Despite being discreet, practicing at home to make sure I wasn't flashing people, etc. I still got the distinct feeling from some factions that my nursing a little baby in public was not the done thing. Hmm...and we won't even go into nursing a toddler in public. That's guarunteed to earn more vocalizing and dirty looks from some people.

The very fact that so many moms choose to formula feed guaruntees that breastfeeding is not the norm in the US and therefore it is considered "weird" to many people. Breastfeeding is a natural process, a natural way to feed our babies....why do so many people think it's gross, disgusting, or weird?

Because that's the US formula culture speaking.

Semele
December 4th, 2003, 03:16 PM
LOL! Wow this is one heated discussion. Again I am just going to say that it isn't a horrible lifealtering decision if you choose to feed your infant formula. We will all just have to agree to disagree on this one folks.

You know at work we lovingly refere to certain, not all, lactation consultants as the nursing Nazi's. I guess now I can tell them they have some nursing nazi supporters at MW. ;)

Carry on.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 04:00 PM
Formula feeding should always be a choice!!!

I do not argue that at all. But it needs to be an informed choice and not something stumbled into when other forces are at work and not seen. Formula companies all have to seem to support breastfeeding in their literature otherwise WHO will be on them pretty quick. It is easy in seemingly accurate info to plant the seeds of doubt in someone's exausted and scared brain...I well remember sitting there sobbing right along with my first baby who had started out 6 pounds 14 ounces and was on day 4, 6 pounds even. If I had bailed to Similac then nobody would have blamed me...but Martha saved me...she set me up with a SNS and send me home with an electric breastpump and she fixed the latch, showed me what I was doing wrong, The SNS fed my now lazy nurser till she caught on and we were able to discard it at 6 weeks. What was in that SNS the first time? similac! she drank an ounce and martha said she might sleep for a while but try not to let her go past 6 hours. 5 hours later there I was feeding a newly eager nurser with pumped mild and breastmilk together...she nursed for two and a half years!!

I went hunting for information on formula marketing in the united states and learned a few things...

Formula is regulated as a food not a drug so additives do not have to be proven safe prior to marketing. that means it is formula feeding babies in the general public that have to take the risk Their parents may be totally unaware that their babies are in effect part of an experiment! While formula has vastly improved over the karo syrup and condensed milk concoctions used 30 years ago, it is now the sole source of nutrition for up to six months! When I was little my mother was pureeing table foods and feeding them to me at six weeks of age!! While it is debateable how many nutriants I was able to absorb from this, at least it was theoretically possible for me to get something from it.

One Mom quoted from Mothering.com has this to say...
The "magazine" that came in the "nursing support bag" I got at the hospital (provided by Enfamil) said that after about 4 weeks you could expect the baby to begin wanting to nurse only every 3-4 hours.

(Only after several months of waiting for my daughter to space out her nursing sessions to something longer than every 45 minutes did it dawn on me where I'd read that fact...)

Some babies do space out their nursing...but not all, and this messege may plant the seeds of "do I really have enough milk?"

some links for you...

http://zipmall.com/bab-bott.htm

http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/formula_disaster.html

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/DHA-formula-comments.html

http://www.birthlink.com/formulaset.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/04/business/media/04adcol.html?ex=1071118800&en=331738dcabc146b5&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Edited to add, I use a way softer sell at work. By the time they are on post-partum they have already made up their minds and there are pediatricians who push them hard to BF...not a thing I want to do to hormonal new moms...If I persuade someone here to breastfeed that's great, I will push, because here you all can ignore me or think I am a wenchbag if you want, I am not a "Nurse in a white uniform" the way I am at work...I'll bust butt to help them, but only if they want my help!

mol
December 4th, 2003, 04:03 PM
I think a device should be made in which a tube would be inserted into each breast of the mother in question which would run through the device and through a tube inserted into the stomach of the baby. The device would do nutrient checks and add vitamins if any such were needed so that the baby would get *exactly* enough nourishment required.

Bah. Probably too much to ask. Guess we will have to stick with boobs or a bottle.

Incidentally, in the olden days of my family none of the kids were breast fed. All were nourished with cows milk that was replenished daily on the farm. I am speaking of when my mom was a kid, not me. I was given formula. We didn't have any cows on our farm and goat's milk did not have enough nutrients.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 04:12 PM
a boobymeter!!

Ben Trismegistus
December 4th, 2003, 04:20 PM
You know at work we lovingly refere to certain, not all, lactation consultants as the nursing Nazi's. I guess now I can tell them they have some nursing nazi supporters at MW.
Hee hee! That's our name for the more militant wing of La Leche League - The Breast Nazis! (apologies to MysticMama et al).


I well remember sitting there sobbing right along with my first baby who had started out 6 pounds 14 ounces and was on day 4, 6 pounds even. If I had bailed to Similac then nobody would have blamed me...
Autumn, please don't take this the wrong way. I don't want to insult you, I'm just honestly curious. Did no one tell you that virtually all babies lose weight in the first week? It's perfectly normal.

BethieRose
December 4th, 2003, 04:27 PM
Alright. My comment about not wanting formula as an option to the public was over the top. I know that. I was speaking in an ideal world, my utopia. I apologize for taking the issue there, as it's not really fair to expect the world to submit to my fantasies! ;)

I do agree with Autumn though. If a mother makes a truly educated choice to bottlefeed, I can respect that choice. If she's had the support of family and knowledgeable medical professionals, and she still decides to use formula, that's different than choosing formula simply because "that is what everyone else is doing".

In general, on issues other than formula vs. breastmilk even, I have a problem with people who seem to act like sheep being herded. The hard thing is that even when people try to get good information about breastfeeding vs. formula, so much of the information is biased against breastfeeding that it's hard to know the simple facts. Plus, with so many in the OB/Pediatric sector of the medical profession having less than ideal education about breastfeeding, it causes lots of misinformation to be given out.

Semele, your comment about "nursing Nazi's" upset me. I guess if you think it's Nazi-esque to want new parents to know what feeding options are really out there, and how they really stack up...then sign me up as a nursing Nazi. I find the term offensive, though. Comparing someone who has a child's best interests at heart to a group that did so much damage to the world....well, it's not really a fair assessment, is it? It's a stereotype/label that repels people who could really benefit from the information those dedicated to promoting breastfeeding have to offer. Something to think about. I can see you and mol would rather keep this discussion lighthearted and not heated. So be it.

Ben Trismegistus
December 4th, 2003, 04:39 PM
In general, on issues other than formula vs. breastmilk even, I have a problem with people who seem to act like sheep being herded. The hard thing is that even when people try to get good information about breastfeeding vs. formula, so much of the information is biased against breastfeeding that it's hard to know the simple facts. Plus, with so many in the OB/Pediatric sector of the medical profession having less than ideal education about breastfeeding, it causes lots of misinformation to be given out.
Come on, is anyone really anti-breastfeeding? The formula companies are just out to make a buck, and even they admit on their packaging that breastfeeding is the healthiest way to go. I agree that there's lots of misinformation about breastfeeding, and that many mothers (at their doctors' advice) give up breastfeeding before they've really given it a chance, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who believes that breastfeeding is a bad idea, or that formula is preferable in any way besides convenience (which is in itself negotiable).


Semele, your comment about "nursing Nazi's" upset me. I guess if you think it's Nazi-esque to want new parents to know what feeding options are really out there, and how they really stack up...then sign me up as a nursing Nazi. I find the term offensive, though. Comparing someone who has a child's best interests at heart to a group that did so much damage to the world....well, it's not really a fair assessment, is it? It's a stereotype/label that repels people who could really benefit from the information those dedicated to promoting breastfeeding have to offer. Something to think about. I can see you and mol would rather keep this discussion lighthearted and not heated. So be it.
Well, it's meant as a joke, in much the same way that I just smile when I'm referred to as a "Spelling/Grammar Nazi".

I think that parenting in general produces many black-and-white responses. Many parents believe that their parenting methods are the absolute gospel of how to raise a child, whether they've gotten their ideas from books, family, or just their own logic. And those parents will feverishly argue their position with parents who disagree with them. I've gotten in the middle of so many heated arguments about the freaking "family bed" attachment parenting thing, when it's little more than a personal choice - whether your child sleeps with your or in a separate room isn't going to have THAT much impact on their personality as an adult.

Anyway, breastfeeding is one of the most polarizing arguments out there. And the people that I have in the past referred to as "Breast Nazis" are those who preach the gospel of "Breastmilk Uber Alles", insinuating (or outright proclaiming) that anyone who gives their child formula is Satan Incarnate, and may just as well feed their babies lighter fluid or broken glass. Now, notice that no one on this thread has espoused those ideas in such black-and-white terms -- we're all reasonable, intelligent people (as far as I can tell). We know that at the end of the day, all we can do is present the advantages and disadvantages of breastmilk v. formula, offer as much support and guidance as is needed, and leave people to make their own educated choices.

Semele
December 4th, 2003, 05:10 PM
Semele, your comment about "nursing Nazi's" upset me. I guess if you think it's Nazi-esque to want new parents to know what feeding options are really out there, and how they really stack up...then sign me up as a nursing Nazi. I find the term offensive, though. Comparing someone who has a child's best interests at heart to a group that did so much damage to the world....well, it's not really a fair assessment, is it? It's a stereotype/label that repels people who could really benefit from the information those dedicated to promoting breastfeeding have to offer. Something to think about. I can see you and mol would rather keep this discussion lighthearted and not heated. So be it.

Well, I certainly didn't mean to upset you. I was referring to the way I have personally seen the lactation consultants badger a new mother relentlessly, coming in at all hours of the night and reminding them that they must wake up and pump every two hours and that if they can't get the baby to latch on soon it never will. They fill their heads with ideas about nipple confusion and the horrors of feeding the baby formula, while at the same time the pediatrician or neonatologist is telling them the baby has to have more nutrition then the 15 cc's they are getting from the breat every three hours.

These mothers are expected to pump every two hours and attempt latch on at least every three and recover form a sometimes very difficult labor and delivery all the while coping with horrible hormonal ups and downs. It makes me ill. Yes, sometimes the docs and nursing staff are less then supportive of breastfeeding efforts, but not always. A lactation nurse has absolutely no business stepping in and telling a parent that the doctor is incorrect when they explain to them the concept of breastfeeding jaundice and the fact that yes, your baby has to stop nursing long enough to get this issue under control. Did you know that a parent can and has been held under the scope of social services for refusing to offer supplemental formula when the baby is in danger of falling victim to malnutrition in the freaking hospital of all places?

I have and will continue to kick these particularly aggressive lactation consultants right out of my patients rooms when they are badgering them so much. Obviously the parents made an educated decision to choose breastfeeding, there is no need to force the issue down their throats over and over when they are needing or requesting formula supplements. It is quite frequently written as a physicians order to supplement after each nursing session to make sure the infant gets a minimal amount of nourishment. Yes this can absolutely be done with expressed breast milk if there is enough, but when there isn't you have to mix it with formula. This is especially important with premature or ill infants.

I have seen far more cases of malnourishment from breastfed babies who weren't getting enough milk then I have from formula fed kids. Plain and simple.

My nazi comment is a half joke.....no I don't really think that they are acting as nazi's, but come on, what good does it do either mother or child to break a new mother's heart by threatening the horrors of failure to her and making her feel worthless when it doesn't have to be that way. FWIW, I have seen plenty of infants use supplemental formula without nipple confusion or without compromising the ability to be an exclusive nurser later on. They do need nourishment folks and it doesn't always happen to come from the breast readily in the beginning and stress makes it worse!

Semele
December 4th, 2003, 05:11 PM
I've gotten in the middle of so many heated arguments about the freaking "family bed" attachment parenting thing, when it's little more than a personal choice - whether your child sleeps with your or in a separate room isn't going to have THAT much impact on their personality as an adult.


Well we are of course working under the assumption that as an adult they have finally moved out of the family bed!! :lol:

Amethyst Rose
December 4th, 2003, 05:20 PM
I agree with most everyone's comments so far... I think that if you are truely able to breastfeed (and the majority of women can breastfeed, if taught how to do it), then they should breastfeed. However, I don't see anything wrong with giving a child formula occasionally if they are being breastfed, either.
In my case, I breastfeed...provide approx 50% of my baby's needs with breastmilk, and supplement with formula using an SNS. However, if I go out and the baby gets hungry, my husband will give him a bottle of formula. (I personally won't give the baby a bottle....I don't want him to associate bottle feeding with me). As well, I am uncomfortable breastfeeding in public because I have to use the SNS, so he gets a bottle when we're out of the house, as well.
Any breastmilk a baby can get is benificial. What people need to remember is that breastfeeding isn't just about feeding.... a lot of it is bonding. I could easily switch to bottles with my son, (and just expressing), but I would desperately miss the bonding aspect of breastfeeding.

DebLipp
December 4th, 2003, 05:32 PM
Come on, is anyone really anti-breastfeeding? The formula companies are just out to make a buck, and even they admit on their packaging that breastfeeding is the healthiest way to go. I agree that there's lots of misinformation about breastfeeding, and that many mothers (at their doctors' advice) give up breastfeeding before they've really given it a chance, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who believes that breastfeeding is a bad idea, or that formula is preferable in any way besides convenience (which is in itself negotiable).

Ben, you would be amazed. To start, I do think that anyone who says that formula is an equivalent choice -- like flipping a coin -- is, in effect, anti-breastfeeding. They are saying that there is nothing specific, special, and valuable about human milk, and that is simply false.

What we haven't talked about is how the whole thing started. It didn't start as formula companies trying to make a buck. Formula as a heavily marketed product started from anti-body, anti-nudity, anti-female roots. The thing that gets me most heated as a feminist is the way women's bodies have been abused by the medical system, particularly in regards to childbirth and lactation. Obviously I can't do this whole history justice in a message board post (and hence risk sounding like a crackpot).

My mother told her OB/GYN that she intended to breastfeed and his response was "Do you want to be a cow?" In my mother's day (50s and 60s) women were told that breastfeeding was animalistic, dirty, and unscientific. The reason that formula companies no longer say that (in the U.S.), as Autumn pointed out, is because the World Health Organization forbids it, and because advertising and packaging laws have become much stricter.

Yet I have heard women say they won't breastfeed because:

It will ruin their breasts
Their breasts belong to their husbands
They want their husbands to feel "equal" (presumably these women should also forgo childbirth and adopt??)
Breasts are for sex
It is embarrassing
It is wrong to be naked in public


These are certainly anti-breastfeeding remarks, as well as anti-sex, anti-body, and anti-female. They are steeped in cultural ignorance and prejudice. That's why breastfeeding advocates are sometimes over the top -- it's such an uphill battle!

Ben Trismegistus
December 4th, 2003, 05:46 PM
My mother told her OB/GYN that she intended to breastfeed and his response was "Do you want to be a cow?" In my mother's day (50s and 60s) women were told that breastfeeding was animalistic, dirty, and unscientific. The reason that formula companies no longer say that (in the U.S.), as Autumn pointed out, is because the World Health Organization forbids it, and because advertising and packaging laws have become much stricter.
Well, that's just horrifying. I imagine that that came from the 50s ideals of over-sanitizing and automating everything. Why cook when you can microwave? Why breastfeed when you can use formula? I'd like to think that the majority of people don't believe those sorts of things anymore.


Yet I have heard women say they won't breastfeed because:
It will ruin their breasts Their breasts belong to their husbands They want their husbands to feel "equal" (presumably these women should also forgo childbirth and adopt??) Breasts are for sex It is embarrassing It is wrong to be naked in publicWell, like I said, the final choice belongs to the parents. The best we can do is provide information and support, and if a woman decides not to breastfeed because "her breasts belong to her husband", there's nothing we can do for her anyway.


These are certainly anti-breastfeeding remarks, as well as anti-sex, anti-body, and anti-female. They are steeped in cultural ignorance and prejudice. That's why breastfeeding advocates are sometimes over the top -- it's such an uphill battle!
Breastfeeding has come a LONG way in the past 30 years, however. In the 50s and 60s, almost NO ONE breastfed, and as you said, those who did were considered weird and dirty. So it's come a long way since then. According to a 1999 survey by the Surgeon General's office, 67.2% of mothers said that they breastfed their babies. That's pretty good.

I guess I should've said that no one with a BRAIN makes anti-breastfeeding remarks.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 05:52 PM
I too am not real thrilled about the use of the term nazi. Guilt is such a big issue in this and the term nazi promotes fear that the person will make you feel bad for formula feeding or push you to do so when it is wrong for you. Granted that some folks are so over zealous they do frighten folks...That is wrong too.

Nazi is a loaded word though...not so bad when you are talking about being a stickler for spelling and grammer...but very loaded when you apply it to emotionally charged issues like breastfeeding.

Formula companies may acknowledge that breast is best but their economic needs and marketing practices make it a hollow statement. I don't ask for them to stop, it would be useless. but I do want folks to realize they have to sell product and will do it any way they can...or are permitted to.

My aim is to get people to do the research before they have babies. To get the info out there is so important. Holding it back to spare the feelings of bottlefeeding moms is missing the point. I also think it is a connveinient way for formula companies to hide info or twist it.

Frankly I will be much pushier here than I can be face to face with a mom. I want the info out there where it gets discussed and processed so an informed choice can be made.

Call me a pushy B**** if you want, I'll own the term, but don't call be a nazi, it is innapropriate and disrespectful to those who lost everything to Hitler's SS.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 06:07 PM
This linkhas some things to think about... http://www.cs.colorado.edu/%7Ekolina/advantages-of-formula.html

Ben Trismegistus
December 4th, 2003, 06:11 PM
Well, most of the reasons presented in that site are patently ridiculous, as the author easily points out.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 06:18 PM
That's the point!

SylverStar
December 4th, 2003, 06:19 PM
I think breastmilk is preferable, but not everyone can breastfeed. If you can't breastfeed than please, please use formula. I watched my friend never give her baby any liquids at all. Just feed him baby food in a bottle. He spent the first 8 months of his life without liquid. She said he wouldn't drink anything. It just can't be healthy.

*side note* I have never had children

Fire Spirit
December 4th, 2003, 06:36 PM
Anyway, breastfeeding is one of the most polarizing arguments out there. And the people that I have in the past referred to as "Breast Nazis" are those who preach the gospel of "Breastmilk Uber Alles", insinuating (or outright proclaiming) that anyone who gives their child formula is Satan Incarnate, and may just as well feed their babies lighter fluid or broken glass. .




Actually there have been 22 "significant" recalls of formula from 1982-1994, 7 were "life threatening." Some have been for glass shards in the powder, so for some babies it is feeding them broken glass. In 1999 Meade Johnson recalled 120,000 cans of ProSobee for having a lable error, they had put an adult nutritional substitute in the can instead of formula.

The formula companies dont put that breastmilk is best on their lables cause they want to, they are following the World Health Organization Code that was set up in 1981, that the US signed. There is a whole list of things they can and cannot do.


The formula industry can be likened to the tobacco industry. 4,000 babies worldwide die everyday from not being breastfed. It is not just sanitary water supply, in the US of every 1,000 infants born die because they were not breastfed. Health care savings would reach and esitmated $2 to $4 billion annually if every child were breastfed for as little as 3 months.

They are not out to make a "buck" they are out to make millions. The industry generated $5-$6 billion in sales each year and hte CEO of one makes $4 million a year and another makes $13 million. Every dollar formula makes charge to their retail distributors costs them 16 cents on production and delivery.

To promote formula, companies spend millions securing exclusive distribution deals for formula samples, about $6,000-$8,000 per doctor. There is a 94% customer loyality for the moms who take a free sample of formula home from the hospital with them. They donate $1 million to the AAP and donated $3 tothe building of the APP headquaters.

All of my data comes from Mothering Magazine, you can go to the Mothering.com site and look up the article "Formula for Profit" and get the stats for yourself.

I am all for making an educated decision about things. Like with circumcising a baby, I may not like it, but at long as the parent makes an educated decision who am I to say anything at that point.
Just know what you are doing and the health risks associated with formula feeding. There are many, just do the research and you will find them.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 06:43 PM
Holy smoke SylverStar! I am just amazed...speechless!

I never did address the fact that a baby who goes from 6 lbs 14 ounces to 6 lbs has lost more than 10% of birthweight...too much loss.

Semele our hospital does the newborn jaundice thing diffrently, we do not require supplementation...however, you deal with the readmits don't you...that changes everything! sleepy baby who would rather sleep than nurse and sky high bili's change everything...get the cup and formula or the SNS or what-have-you.

My unit also suffers badly from the mixed messege thing...each nurse sings her own song, I try to find out what plans have been laid out and stick to them...I regularly ask a mom to tell me what she wants...I have also seen it where we cup feed a baby for the night so mom can sleep and then everything goes better in the morning with a rested mom and a baby who's hungry but not frantic.

BethieRose
December 4th, 2003, 07:00 PM
I also find the formula companies' efforts to present a truthful picture hollow when they blatantly ignore the World Health Organization code on Breastfeeding. Here're some links about this:

http://www.breastfeedingtaskforla.org/WHOcode.htm

http://www.geocities.com/pwrmommy/world_health_organization_intern.htm This has the actual WHO code regarding breastmilk substitutes. I'm still trying to find it on the WHO website...

http://www.who.int/nut/documents/code_english.PDF Here it is in PDF format from WHO.

http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/policy-whocode.htm I found this one interesting as it's from the CDC. It states that the WHO code was presented as recommendation and not regulation, thereby leaving it up to the countries' governments how far they would implement the recommendations. Just by looking at the Code, you can tell the US has made minimal effort to implement the recommendations, despite having agreed to the Code.

Semele
December 4th, 2003, 07:07 PM
The formula industry can be likened to the tobacco industry.
OMG! Please tell me you didn't just go there. :rolleyes: Now, giving your child formula can be compared to giving them a carcinogen?



4,000 babies worldwide die everyday from not being breastfed. It is not just sanitary water supply, in the US of every 1,000 infants born die because they were not breastfed. Health care savings would reach and esitmated $2 to $4 billion annually if every child were breastfed for as little as 3 months.


These claims, while laughable, are absolutely ridiculous. In the first place look at the source..a pro-nursing magazine with no scientific research qualifications. Second the manner in which these type of statistics were likely obtained (falsified) has no way opf providing elminiation for other variables such as SIDS or congenital anomolies. There is no way you can look at a number of infant deaths and claim that they all occured because the mother didn't breastfeed. What about the dead infants who were breastfed..did they just not make the survey?

I could do my own survey here on MW about..uh lets say oranje juice and its relationship to constipation. I would do a poll and see how many people drink OJ at least once a week and then do a poll about who has constipation more than once a week. I could very easily pick and choose the participants responses I want to use and come up with my conclusion..either way I want it to go. For instance 15 people claim to drink it regularly and of those 15 people only 3 claimed to have constipation. I could omit those people and say that 100% of those surveyed expereince a decrease in constipation by drinking OJ. Never mind the people who don't drink it and don't get constipated..they are insignificant in my survey. See how "scientific" evidence can be clouded?

Semele
December 4th, 2003, 07:14 PM
Semele our hospital does the newborn jaundice thing diffrently, we do not require supplementation...however, you deal with the readmits don't you...that changes everything! sleepy baby who would rather sleep than nurse and sky high bili's change everything...get the cup and formula or the SNS or what-have-you.


Yes it is different with readmits and also there are different types of jaundice. I will include a link. Some peds prefere to stop breastfeeding for a couple of days so that the mothers milk and plasma levels can build up. It is not detrimental to the overall effort of nursing and it is beneficial to the babies to be under phototherapy and recieve iv fluids. The formula will help pass the bilirubin out of the body quicker. Some will continue to look at this as an evil ploy by the healthcare teams to ruin nursing.

http://www.mcg.edu/pediatrics/CCNotebook/chapter1/breastmilkjaundice.htm

Semele
December 4th, 2003, 07:17 PM
I am about to sign off and have dinner with some friends..Toad and Mrs. Toad and kids! I just wanted to say that I honestly am not intentionally pushing buttons and I do not mean to insult anyone here. I just think that we need to embrace the choices women make without thinking negatively about it. I mean, some of you who are so adament about choosing breast rather than formula are prochoice, while I personally think that abortion is hideous and shouldn't be such an easy option for so many reasons.

Fire Spirit
December 4th, 2003, 07:23 PM
Seleme, go look up the facts for yourself then! Its all documented and not made up as you seem to want it to be. There have been many studies done on the health risks of feeding formula and they all say the same thing.



Belive the data or don't, I really dont care. I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and that certainly makes me happy. You are one of those close minded people who will slam anyone elses methods because the results they dont fit with what you want to think. Just keep your mind shut if you want to, again, I really dont care.


Yea, I went there, and I am not the first or the last. That stuff can kill babies, just like cigaretts can kill. Ever hear of breastmilk being recalled cause it killed a baby? You never will. I wont go into all the health risks, as you will just tell me its all a big old lie and try to refute everything. Just stick your fingers in your ears and say lalalalalalalalalalalal.

Amethyst Rose
December 4th, 2003, 08:01 PM
I never did address the fact that a baby who goes from 6 lbs 14 ounces to 6 lbs has lost more than 10% of birthweight...too much loss.


My baby went from 8 lbs 4 oz to 7 lbs 7 oz in one week, which is one of the reasons we had to start supplementing. He was right at his birth weight at his 2 week well baby appointment.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 08:10 PM
Fire Spirit, You know I agree with you that breast is best and taht formula companies put dollars before babies. However It is very easy to lie with statistics, it's one of the things we rail against formula companies about. It can be very difficult to believe that a large number of children die in the US with formula feeding as a direct cause. Sure it's possible but it is also easy to refute.

Formula feeding could be a contributing factor in a number of deaths but I imagine that misuse of formula is a greater factor then properly used formula.

If we are to convince Semele that breastfeeding should be aggressively pushed I know it won't be because of wild statistics like these. Semele isn't really the issue and I suspect I am going to irk her again with my next point.

I would say that breastfeeding is a healthy state and compare the use of formula to the use of insulin. Both save lives, both allow people to lead healthy long lives when they are needed. both can be used intermittantly (a diet controlled diabetic may occasionally need insulin or a woman with gestational diabetes may use it during pregnancy) However nobody with a funtioning pancreas would ever "choose" to use insulin. using insulin if you do not need it can cause severe complications, even death. Therefore if your breasts work why would you use formula?

The further beauty of this argument is that it allows for problems, issues and intermittant use. Some women choose not to breastfeed because they have suffered sexual abuse and just don't want to go there...again a rational use for formula.

I just don't want formula use to be akin to "I don't want to use my pancreas anymore, pass the insulin" but I am not queen of the world and I can't fix everything...

maybe this is less of a loaded argument than the tobacco thing...OTOH I might have just dug myself a huge ole pit

Mau
December 4th, 2003, 08:46 PM
Autumn, please don't take this the wrong way. I don't want to insult you, I'm just honestly curious. Did no one tell you that virtually all babies lose weight in the first week? It's perfectly normal.


But not 14 ounces! that's almost a damn pound! 5-10 % MAXIMUM of total birthweight. That is safe, and normal loss after birth.

Autumn
December 4th, 2003, 09:48 PM
and that was why I was sitting there sobbing right along with 4 day old DD...

I got help...

mol
December 5th, 2003, 11:27 AM
You people crack me up. Seems you want to stick your nose in another parent's business all too much.

Comparing formula companies to big tobacco...good grief. You want to know the difference there. In my lifetime I have seen several people die from lung cancer and other complications linked to tobacco. I have never seen a kid harmed by drinking formula. Post your weird stats, news stories, and biased studies all you want.

It comes down to experience. Fact is, our kids have been raised on a mixture of both breast milk and forumla and have turned out fine. I, and my brother and sisters were raised on formula and we are all doing well. My mother and her brothers and sisters were raised on Cow's milk and they are all doing well. You know what...come to think of it. I dont know if I even know one child that was fed *just* breast milk.

Heh. That's funny. I never thought of that.

Carry on.

Semele
December 5th, 2003, 11:28 AM
Belive the data or don't, I really dont care. I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and that certainly makes me happy. You are one of those close minded people who will slam anyone elses methods because the results they dont fit with what you want to think. Just keep your mind shut if you want to, again, I really dont care.

ROFLMAO!! You don't know me at all my friend.You call me closed minded yet you are the one who keeps spouting off insane ideas that formula kills babies. Yes, it is more desirable for all to breastfeed for so many reasons, but increased infant mortality rates directly related to the use of formula is so not the reason.



Yea, I went there, and I am not the first or the last. That stuff can kill babies, just like cigaretts can kill. Ever hear of breastmilk being recalled cause it killed a baby? You never will.

Funny, why doesn't the surgeon general have a warning on formula then? The same reason they don't put one on red meat silly... it may not be the best choice, but it is a choice. As for breastmilk being recalled, let me tell you a couple of my experiences working with new mothers and their premature infants. When working in the NICU we do encourage the mother's to pump milk and bring it in for the babies because it is the best choice for them and helps them get stronger, even if it has to be mixed with formula. The colostrum is considered liquid gold. We had one mother who after a long meeting with the social service department and the lactation consultant suddenly started bringing in massive quantities of "breastmilk". She was told how important it was for the health of her baby and led to believe that it would give her a better chance of retaining custody of this child, (lots of issues) because it would seem that she really was trying to be a part of the child's life. Needless to say when she startede pumping one day and had four bottles of really white thick milk the next day the staff was more than a little suspiscious. It turned out to be whole milk that she had poured into the bottles to give the appearance of being compliant. Luckily the child never recieved it.

Another example would be the MULTIPLE times we have given these infants colostrum and even hind milk from the mother only to later discover that the mother was using illicit druga that began to manifest as dangerous symptoms in the infants. Premies have enough difficulties without throwing cocaine into the mix. Why would these parents give tainted milk? Because they were talked into pumping by the staff of the NICU and they want to have every chance of bringing the baby home with them despite their sorted social history. I am not saying the staff is wrong to encourage the parents to pump milk for the baby..there is no way of screening beforehand who is using drugs, unless they used during pregnancy in which case we are forbidden to use the breastmilk. What I am saying is that yes there are times when breastmilk and its contents can harm a child and formula is the answer. Certain siezure drugs that the mother may need to take prevent breastfeeding as well.



I wont go into all the health risks, as you will just tell me its all a big old lie and try to refute everything. Just stick your fingers in your ears and say lalalalalalalalalalalal.

My fingers are far from my ears. I am listening to everything here. I agree with you all 100% that breast is best. But, come on...formula is not akin to a carcinogen and you nor anyone else will ever convince me or any other intelligent person that it is.

FWIW, I nursed both of my children as long as I could and plan to do the same with this one. My daughter only nursed for about two months and it was a daily struggle where I spent more time with the pump then I did with her. It was not a difficult decision to make in choosing to be with her more and the pump less. You can bond with a baby even if you don't have your breast in their mouth..just ask any Dad.

Semele
December 5th, 2003, 11:41 AM
If we are to convince Semele that breastfeeding should be aggressively pushed I know it won't be because of wild statistics like these. Semele isn't really the issue and I suspect I am going to irk her again with my next point.

LOL! You don't have to convince me. I am all for educating people on the benefits of breastfeeding..just not aggresively to the point of badgering them. Once the decision has been made, allow them to change their minds if they decide that it would be best for them..without making them feel guilty. Irk away, I rather enjoy it! :)


using insulin if you do not need it can cause severe complications, even death. Therefore if your breasts work why would you use formula?


Ok, while this isn't as offbase as the tobacco claim, it still has a couple of flaws. Lets see the similarites..if a breast wont work, formula can save a life just like if the pancreas wont work Insulin can save a life. However, if I just choose to give you say 12 units of Insulin for the hell of it, with your fully functioning pancreas..you can and will suffer some side effects that could likely kill you and will without treatment. If I decide to give an infant who just nursed some formula just for the hell of it...he may throw up but it wont likely kill him as long as I mixed it correctly and didn't add any poison. We could even take it one step further and say that a diabetic who needs Insulin could use a sliding scale and take a routine dose of lantus along with diet control. Lets say they took their routine lantus 25 units at 8 p.m and then had a snack and checked their sugar..it was high so according to their sliding scale they need 3 units. Ok, so a new nurse draws up 3 cc's of Insulin, which as we know sounds similar but is in reality a freaking mac truck of an error. She gives the dose and immediately throws the patient into an Insulin coma from which they may or may not recover..likely not. On the same token we have a formuals fed infant who usually eats 4 ounces every three hours of EPF24 cal. The instructions on the can tell you how to mix the formula to make it 24 cal. However the nurse accidentally mixes it way too strong and the then feeds the infant formula that is too concentrated. Chances are it woint flow through the nipple very well and even if it does the baby will likely throw up the formual very quickly. Worse case scenario would be some serious constipation. Lets see.. alomost certain death or a belly ache...I don't think they are even in the same category myself.

Autumn
December 5th, 2003, 02:39 PM
I have to be quick here, I have to go to work.

I do consider parental foolishness(drug use, gross irresposibility, ect) a good reason to use formula.

I do not deal with a tenth of the social pathology Semele does. Therefore my assessment of human nature will always be different...

I will be back late tonight!

Ben Trismegistus
December 5th, 2003, 03:17 PM
Belive the data or don't, I really dont care. I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and that certainly makes me happy. You are one of those close minded people who will slam anyone elses methods because the results they dont fit with what you want to think. Just keep your mind shut if you want to, again, I really dont care.

Yea, I went there, and I am not the first or the last. That stuff can kill babies, just like cigaretts can kill. Ever hear of breastmilk being recalled cause it killed a baby? You never will. I wont go into all the health risks, as you will just tell me its all a big old lie and try to refute everything. Just stick your fingers in your ears and say lalalalalalalalalalalal.
Sure. Because insulting people is a good way to get your point across. Nice work.

I want to address a different point however. I'm surprised at the horror people express over the fact that formula companies actually MAKE MONEY off the sale of formula. They're a for-profit industry? Were you expecting them to provide sustenance for children out of the kindness of their hearts?

Do you think that the CEOs of Carter's and Graco and Fisher-Price are compensated purely with the knowledge of helping out the children of America? Give me a break. Even breastfeeding has a for-profit aspect -- somebody out there makes money off your Lansinoh disposable breast pads, and your Boppy nursing pillow, and your Medela Pump-In-Style breastpump. That's capitalism for you -- you can't criticize the formula industry for having a solid business plan.

ckynes1968
December 5th, 2003, 04:25 PM
My $0.02 worth...

Both of my daughters drank infant formula (one soy based the other milk based). Both are intelligent and healthy.

I came from a famliy of six...we all had formula.

FlyingBear
December 5th, 2003, 05:32 PM
If you're able to breastfeed, great! Some women would rather not, like my sister for example who said that it was a big inconvience, while others wish they could but are unable to.

If you use forumal, great! I don't doubt that you've done what research you can and picked the best one for your wee bairn.

What bothers me is the weird, competitive "better mother than thou" attitude that people get when it comes to the care and feeding of their kids. We're all in the same boat here, a community that's trying to raise our children as best we can, what's the point of tearing someone else down simply because they've choosen a different path?

We do the best we can, as people, and as parents. Save the barbs and the arrows for when you'll really need them.

Did I mention the Presidental elections are coming up? ;) :lol:

DebLipp
December 5th, 2003, 05:49 PM
I want to address a different point however. I'm surprised at the horror people express over the fact that formula companies actually MAKE MONEY off the sale of formula. They're a for-profit industry? Were you expecting them to provide sustenance for children out of the kindness of their hearts?.
Dismissing legitimate outrage over the excesses of corporate greed as mere kneejerk anti-capitalism is beneath you. The "they're in it for a profit" argument has been used to justify everything from dumping illegal toxins into groundwater to phony accounting. The Nestle Corporation isn't being boycotted for making a profit, they are being boycotted for valuing profit over human life and ethical standards. Surely there is a difference between recognizing a profit economy and laisse faire capitalism!

Ben Trismegistus
December 5th, 2003, 06:03 PM
Dismissing legitimate outrage over the excesses of corporate greed as mere kneejerk anti-capitalism is beneath you. The "they're in it for a profit" argument has been used to justify everything from dumping illegal toxins into groundwater to phony accounting. The Nestle Corporation isn't being boycotted for making a profit, they are being boycotted for valuing profit over human life and ethical standards. Surely there is a difference between recognizing a profit economy and laisse faire capitalism!
Touché. I realize that the Nestle boycott is occurring for a very good reason. I find their behavior in Africa to be completely reprehensible. Therefore, when we have to supplement, we don't use any formula made by Nestle. This statement I was reacting to was this:


They are not out to make a "buck" they are out to make millions. The industry generated $5-$6 billion in sales each year and hte CEO of one makes $4 million a year and another makes $13 million. Every dollar formula makes charge to their retail distributors costs them 16 cents on production and delivery.
There are many arguments against using formula, but this is not a valid reason. As I said, virtually everything we get for our children comes from a for-profit industry. We can't call all formula companies evil ONLY because they make a profit.

Additionally, I don't think that the existence of recalls makes them evil. There was a huge recall last year of Graco infant car seats due to a defective latching mechanism. Potentially fatal. Would you say that Graco values profit over human life?

There are some absolutely viable reasons to breastfeed rather than use formula. Breastfeeding transmits the mother's antibodies to the child. Formula babies have a higher rate of SIDS. Those are two really big reasons. The Nestle situation in Africa is an obvious case of poor business ethics. So why throw in additional reasons to demonize formula that are harder to defend?

Calyx
December 6th, 2003, 12:57 AM
Good grief!
I just have to throw my two cents in here. As the mother of 2 girls, my first breastfed and was so easy. We did it for about 7 months, and the only reason I stopped was because it was too hard for me to pump at work due to the type of work I do (Health, Safety and Environmental. I'm the Health part). She was a breastfeeder's dream come true. I pumped and let my husband feed her bottles. Everyone was happy! After weaning, I gave her formula until 10 months, when we switched to regular milk.

So imagine my shock and surprise when baby number 2 REFUSED breast milk. She would actually turn away from my breast and make a face. We struggled for about 2 weeks and I finally had to give up. She would not even drink it from a bottle, because I tried pumping and bottle feeding. Apparently the taste just didn't agree with her, I guess. I secretly suspect one of the nurses gave her formula in the hospital, but of course this is just a theory. :mmm:

Now, here's the rest. When you are breastfeeding, you are still pressured that it's the best thing to do by everyone. Funny how everyone has an opinion that they want to share, regardless of if they've ever had kids OR breastfed. When I had to switch to formula with Sara, I felt like a failure. I cried for several days and I will say that drying up REALLY sucks. I personally felt like I had ruined her chances because I couldn't get her to take breast milk.

She will be 4 in January, and looking back on that time, I think now, how foolish and what a waste of time my tears and guilt were. It also makes me angry that there are so many women who are eager to "one-up" others on this subject. There's no reason to be spiteful or pushy. Women have enough hard decisions to make about parenting without being attacked for their feeding preferences (or choices, such as the case may be...as in I didn't have a choice). There is no difference between my girls.

And as far as the ear infection thing, breastmilk CERTAINLY didn't help the first one. She was plagued with continuous ear infections for about 5 months, partly during her breastfeeding days. I personally don't believe that because I know what Hel we went thru here. And the formula baby? Never had an ear infection in her life. Go figure... They're also both smart as whips so don't think that nasty formula killed any brain cells either.

I am not saying that I don't agree that breast is best, because I think it is. I just think that it's the parent (s) choice, and please don't make them feel bad about whatever choice they make. That's all. Sometimes these decisions get made for us, too! Be gentle....There are many ways of approaching this topic nicely with parents.

OK, I think this turned into a long rant and I didn't mean for it to. Sorry!

Autumn
December 6th, 2003, 02:59 AM
In the end it is not really about people who use formula after trying breastfeeding...it's about this conflict...our mothers and grandmothers and aunties didn't breastfeed for the most part, and in pre formula societies these were the women who helped a new mom get going. Sure some babies lost greater than 10% birthweight but hell, the human race is still here...more than a few made it! Now we have this gap many older women used formula but we are hollering over how breast is best and people for whom it does not work out feel badly, like it is their fault they didn't succeed at breastfeeding. Often there is no one person or thing that causes breastfeeding to fall apart it's a bunch of factors.

What us breastfeeding zealots are trying to do is change us back to a culture where most people do breastfeed, like 75 to 90%. Then in time our young mothers will have Mothers and Aunties who can help and they are better at it then all the lactation consultants put together. If I have a teen mom trying to breastfeed the best indicator of her success is her being on good terms with her own mother who successfully breastfed.

Another positive indicator is that most women who successfully breastfeed were well educated about it in advance of having the baby.

Us Zealots get loud in places like this forum because it may cause a few people to look hard at breastfeeding who may not otherwise...I am out to dispel myths and plant information that will help someone succeed when the going gets tough. Breastfeeding usually fails because something was wrong with the latch that went unrecognised. I have said it before and I will say it again...yes, formula fed kids do usually just fine, but if you really think breast is best let go of defending formula and work on getting the info and support to new moms. We will never achieve 100% results, it is impossible! but we can do way way better than we do if we just let go of what went wrong in the past...

Parents have the hardest job in the world...I take my hat off to all of us raising littleones no matter how they were nourished as infants...

Formula has nourished many healthy adults and smart children...I'll not deny it...but it is a second best option to the breastmilk of a healthy(both mind and body)mother.

If the breastfeeding relationship is ruined by an ignorant health care professional then formula isn't really a choice...someone took the choice to breastfeed away from the mother!

If a woman who has suffered sexual abuse chooses not to breastfeed than in a way her abuser took her choice away from her.

If a woman chooses to cease breastfeeding because it is difficult for her to pump while at work her employer has taken her choice away from her.

I could go on...

Maybe it is all about reversing 50 years of a culture that says science know more than nature...
but does science really know better than the Goddess?

DebLipp
December 6th, 2003, 11:46 AM
What us breastfeeding zealots are trying to do is change us back to a culture where most people do breastfeed, like 75 to 90%. Then in time our young mothers will have Mothers and Aunties who can help and they are better at it then all the lactation consultants put together. If I have a teen mom trying to breastfeed the best indicator of her success is her being on good terms with her own mother who successfully breastfed.

...
Maybe it is all about reversing 50 years of a culture that says science know more than nature...
but does science really know better than the Goddess?
This is totally what I have been wanting to say. But I didn't say it, duh, so thanks. And I think that Calyx tells us zealots something very valuable, because the goal is never, ever, ever to wound a mother or make her feel bad, and it is really important to know that sometimes that happens. It is important to create a lot of space for women like Calyx to still feel like the great mothers they are.

Every mother should be supported in her choices. The breastfeeding issue is very much an issue of culture wars; of transforming the reality of what is possible and positive and life-affirming. As that reality changes, women will perceive their choices differently.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s and watched with my own eyes how reality changed for women; the reality of what was possible for me when I grew up was in the process of changing while I was growing up. Women older than me had very few choices; women younger than me don't even recognize, half the time, how much things have changed. Younger women don't always realize how hard it was to create the possibility, to transform the reality, so that a girl could imagine her adult life as being something more or other than wife and mother. I think some individual women felt wounded and attacked by the culture wars; they wanted to make the personal choice to by at-home moms and felt attacked for it (and sometimes WERE attacked for it). They resent the attack, they rightfully resent the idea that they were somehow inferior. But most will not look at the feminist movement and resent the fact that its zealotry and fervor created the possibility of women in the workplace, of women doctors and women lawyers, of safe, available birth control and equal rights in property ownership.

Similarly, the dialogue about breastfeeding is a fight to transform cultural reality, and that fight is sometimes fervent, and sometimes women feel attacked because they're in the middle, and sometimes women are right to feel attacked and we need to be conscious of that, and never forget to be kindhearted. Nonetheless, I deeply believe that this is an important transformation to effect, and that it still has a long way to go.

Ben, in an earlier post, noted that something like 60 or 70 percent of US women now breastfeed. But 90% of those women breastfeed for 3-6 weeks, and then stop completely. There's still a lot of consciousness to be raised, a lot of support to be given, and a lot of entrenched attitudes to be changed.

BethieRose
December 6th, 2003, 01:43 PM
Yes, Autumn said what I wanted to say too. As did DebLipp. We're fervent because we'd like to see things change, even as we see the necessity for formula. If we can plant a seed into even one person's head, to give them the oomph to do more research, to fight harder, to find the support...then something valuable has been attained. We must speak up and make it known that we want and need accurate information, and knowledgeable medical and lay persons supporting us.

Calyx
December 6th, 2003, 03:51 PM
Yes, Autumn, DebLipp and Bethie Rose, I think you have finally gotten to the heart of the matter!
Breast feeding IS important, and it IS the best. But it is HOW this information is presented that people often have issues with. There is so much pressure put on women to breastfeed, even if well-intentioned, that it can be devastating for those if for some reason it becomes not an option. I speak from experience on this. I was really crushed. I felt horrible, and a failure. As stated above, I look back and think what a waste of time and energy it was for me.

When presenting breastfeeding options, and it looks like several of you may be in the Health profession, I think, it would be really, really nice to say that if for some reason breastfeeding doesn't work for you, your baby won't be doomed to be obese, prone to infections, not as mentally agile, you name it, whatever has been chalked up to formula feeding. New mothers have enough to worry about without having to worrying that you are letting your baby down too!

I do agree that the longer a baby can breast feed, the better. Companies are getting better and better about providing private places for women to pump, and that's great. In my case, the nature of my job has me out and about and away from the office doing things that it was just impossible to pump. I would have loved to have kept feeding the first one, but oh well. When disseminating information, you should tell them that ANY breast feeding is good, longer is better, but if they can't well, that's ok too. I also think you can tout the *superiority* of breast milk without bashing the formula companies. I think you can emphasize the positive without bringing in the negative. Anything negative will be remembered and worried about in the future by Mommy, I promise!

As passionate as this thread has been, and the enthusiasm you have for breastfeeding, I think that y'all will do an awesome job educating women about the benefits of breastfeeding. I am so glad that there are people out there like y'all who want to make changes for the better--this just can only help our quality of life get better! Keep up the fight, but please, please keep in mind this post. I am only trying to help... :floating:

Autumn
December 6th, 2003, 06:24 PM
More than a year ago I took care of a lady who had come from 70 miles away to have her baby because she followed an OB who had delivered her older children.

Her baby was being cared for by the on call pediatrician in this case a guy who tends to annoy folks with his breastfeeding zelaotry...he talk the talk but has no clue how to really help. She intended to formula feed but her baby was not adjusting well to the enfamil. so Dr Zealot went in there and laid a guilt trip on her and she wound up feeling like she had no choice but to try to breastfeed. before I went in to talk to her I called my husband and made him find me the names and numbers of the LLL leaders in her area. I went in to talk to her and actually let her do the talking. Her other children had done fine on enfamil and since Dr.Z had scared the living @##$ out of her she wasn't thinking clearly...she asked me what I thought would normally be done in a case like hers...I said soy formula, I also said that even 3 or 4 days of breastfeeding might allow her baby's gut to mature enough to take the enfamil.

I gave her the phone numbers and said that when she got home she should call these folks for help with breastfeeding if she needed help, that she should take it one day at a time and whatever she choose to do her baby would be fine.

I strongly suspect she went home and put her baby back on formula. That's ok, because I gave her back the choices that Dr Z had taken. Sure I wish she would breastfeed, but Dr. Z taught me that guilt trips in the post-partum period do not work. Educating people about breastfeeding has to happen before then.

When breastfeeding falls apart formula is there...and you will know you tried...I just want enough people educated as to the mechanics of breastfeeding so we can truly reduce the numbers of people who must stop and use formula. This has to happen in both the public realm and among health care workers.

folks who don't want/have children can assist too...If you see someone breastfeeding in public think "aww look at the beautiful baby" just like you would anyway. If someone is giving a breastfeeding mom a hard time step in and say something, if someone is trying to chase her into the ladies room say "would you eat your lunch in the bathroom?" in most places women have the legal right to nurse anywhere they have the legal right to be. If you run a shop, a chair with arms in a comfy corner can provide a nice place to nurse. Give copies of the Sears and Sears Baby Book as shower gifts. This book has info on both feeding methods so it won't offend but it's breastfeeding info is trustworthy. If you know for sure she intends to try to BF then you can give her a copy of LLLI's Womanly art of Breastfeeding. Speaking of that book, next time you are in the library or bookstore spend some time with it. I don't mean you should buy it, just browse it, think of a question you may have and look up the answer. be passingly framiliar with the process. you never know when it could come in handy!

DebLipp
December 6th, 2003, 06:47 PM
One other thing is that people need to learn the difference between statistics and anecdotal evidence. Lots of people have said "I was formula fed" or "my kids were formula fed" and they're just fine. But we all also know people who eat fatty diets and don't have heart attacks, people who smoke and eat bacon and live to 95, people who drive too fast and don't have accidents, etc.

We know that statistically, men are taller than women, even though every woman here is probably taller than a few men she knows.

Statistics mean over the long haul, in a large enough group, comparing too groups. I, too, was formula fed; my immune system is excellent, my IQ is above average, and my cholesterol is low. That's anectodal evidence -- the story of one person. I also don't know what I would have been like had I been breastfed. For example, we do know that ten times as many formula fed babies get SIDS compared to breastfed babies. That's a startling and serious statistic. But SIDS remains rare across the board. When people hear information like this, they think they are being told that formula will kill their baby. But this is not the case at all. It is very unlikely that your baby will get SIDS regardless of what you do, and there are lots of more common things that you can protect your baby from JUST FINE while formula feeding.

Part of why people become so alarmed and so confused about this issue has nothing to do with the issue itself, but that people have a very poor grasp of what it means to talk about averages, statistics, and percentages.

Ben Trismegistus
December 8th, 2003, 01:23 PM
I think that this thread has come around to the point where everyone is saying the same thing in different ways. But while I'm here, I might as well contribute to Deb's point about anecdotal evidence.


I, too, was formula fed; my immune system is excellent, my IQ is above average, and my cholesterol is low.
My sister and I were breastfeed for over a year (two years, in my sister's case). We're both highly intelligent, but we have high cholesterol and badly malfunctioning immune systems (we both have asthma & allergies, and my sister had so many ear infections as a baby that she only has 20% hearing in one ear). My son has been breastfed his whole life, and has had either a cold, an ear infection, or an asthma attack (or all three) constantly for the last 2 months or so. *shrug*

I guess that if the mother's antibodies are substandard, the baby gets those substandard antibodies through breastfeeding. My wife has CFIDS (chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome), and therefore has a perpetual cold through the entire winter, every year. We buy Kleenex in bulk.

Ceallach
December 9th, 2003, 02:53 PM
Ben, my sympathies to your wife. That must be really tough for her.

As for immunities... its all really wierd. My first son didn't get breastfed.. he turned it away. The doctor thinks it had to do with the meds I was given during labor (all 72 hours of it). Anyway, this kid is the healthiest kid I have ever met. He is now 7 and has had maybe 5 bouts of illness in his life. My younger son did breastfeed and has dealt with more sickness, but still not a lot. And I must admit my younger son does seem very intelligent already, eerily so. Who can say what's going to happen. That's why I'm not a doctor, my poor formula fed brain can't handle it!

As an interesting side note.. I asked my mother why she never breastfed any of us kids and she said that she was taught that it was gross. She also said that the doctor she went to told her there was no really good reason for it. Thank goodness for the information we have now!

MoonWeed
December 11th, 2003, 12:26 PM
MM all,
I did breastfeed my daughter till she was almost 2, but it was very hard at the end to get her weaned...So the next time it will be much sooner that I stop..I don't really have an opinion on what others do, as this is their choice to do what's best for them..But I do have concerns over the things that are these formulas..So even tho you use formula I think it would be more benefit to research exactly what type your giving your child, then being worried if you do or don't breastfeed..Yes breast milk is best, but sometimes it is not possible. I am so sorry someone made you feel bad..Ya know if it ain;t one thing it's another..This is your own personal choice...I had fairly an easy time nursing although it felt like I was jsut a big cow and was tied down to nursing a child that seemed as tho she would just never stop LOL She was never sick, we had a great bond and it was the best thing I could have ever done for my child..But it doesn't make me better then anyone else and noone should make you feel that way..Their are things (herbs) you can take to make your milk more abundant and latching can be hard but soemtimes it takes alittle longer. I have read many, many things on the ingredients in formula and it scares me...So I think personally I will definetely nurse my next one, just for the fact that formula is not all its cracked up to be..Heres a link if you would like to read..It's 1 of many I have on this same subject...
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/infant.html
Blessed be,
Flicker

Autumn
December 13th, 2003, 02:33 PM
Name brand formulas are all pretty much the same...getting all uptight about which formula you will feed might frustrate you in the end...If I say I will give a baby prosobee and the baby does not tolerate it well then I need to switch...

If you are going to formula feed for whatever reason it's better to match the formula to the child in question...

With respect to weaning...distraction is best...I will defend anyones right to nurse in public but there comes a time when I tell my kids that "nummies are for home"(post one year of age) then distract them with food or a pacifier or whatever...if you've gone past a year and you feel done then end it gently, but end it!

DebLipp
December 13th, 2003, 03:32 PM
Name brand formulas are all pretty much the same...getting all uptight about which formula you will feed might frustrate you in the end...If I say I will give a baby prosobee and the baby does not tolerate it well then I need to switch...

If you are going to formula feed for whatever reason it's better to match the formula to the child in question...

With respect to weaning...distraction is best...I will defend anyones right to nurse in public but there comes a time when I tell my kids that "nummies are for home"(post one year of age) then distract them with food or a pacifier or whatever...if you've gone past a year and you feel done then end it gently, but end it!
About one year is the right time to wean to a strict schedule. Most older babies who still nurse are nursing at bedtime, midday, and when very upset.

I got thrown off, though, when my boy got roseola at 13 months. When they're ill, nursing round the clock is normal; we all regress when we're sick! I was just beginning the wean-to-schedule routine, and got totally thrown off. Don't be discouraged by setbacks!

Shy Hawk
December 14th, 2003, 01:04 AM
Well, I have heard some comments that many family doctors are maybe biased against breastfeeding for some reason. And, I just wanted to say that all of my doctors so far, including the family doctor that has nothing to do with my prenatal care has been very supportive of my choice to breastfeed. Actually, if I wasn't already going to, I probably would have been gently persuaded to think about it. Since I've become pregnant I have really only heard that "breast is best".
However, my answer to this poll is that although I think it is a woman's choice, I would like to see everyone breastfeed if they physically can. I can see how it would be hard for a working woman, and I honestly don't know what I would say for them, except maybe try to pump and suppliment if they can't make it all up, but I would try my darndest to do it, if in any way possible.
With that said, I tend to feel bad when I see a mother not even try to breastfeed for some silly reason. I mean if you can, why not? So, that's my answer.
I have a friend who almost didn't breastfeed because she was ashamed and saw her breasts as sexual objects. I felt bad, but eventually after reading a lot of literature and stuff, she decided to do it. She does mostly, but suppliments with bottles I think. Hey, better than nothing.
My mother said that she stopped breastfeeding me after 3 months because I got frustrated that her milk didn't flow fast enough. Or something like that. (shrug)

Purrcatnip
December 14th, 2003, 01:10 AM
I believe that it should be avoided unless you have a serious reason for it, like health or lack of production of milk, etc. I think alot of people nowaday's are using it as a way to keep their social lives, so that someone else can take care of the child using the formula. I would never condemn someone for it though, case its just my own opnion. My friend formula fed because she suffered post-partum...at least i think it was that.. where you dont want anythign to do with baby. I feel that if she had breast-feed it would have helped to cure the probelm by making her more closer to the child.. but I dont know accurately and I never will until I have a child myself. :colorful:

vulfsung
December 21st, 2003, 02:04 AM
I was one of those mothers who truly could not breastfeed, and let me tell you, I was/am heartbroken about it. I did not find anti-breastfeeding sentiment from my doc, in fact it was the opposite, she made me feel just awful because I couldn't and gave me the whole "you cannot be any kind of good mother if you can't do this..."

My problem was that in giving birth I lost an enormous amount of blood, and my body would not produce milk....I tried! I pumped for a month straight, and got less than a liter of milk in that entire time....I was given medication to supposedly encourage milk production to no avail, I went to a nursing consultant, my baby latched with no problems, and had no problems sucking, all to no avail...it just wasn't there....

In our case, I am very glad we had formula as a back up, however, was I to have another child, I would again go for breastfeeding....urgh, couldn't handle making formula and cleaning up after it all again....

Ah well, at least she's a happy and healthy 3 year old.....

Wolfsong

TheTempestuous1
January 15th, 2004, 02:48 PM
I think it is a very sad choice to make for your child. Breast Milk is literally "liquid gold" when it starts, it contains tons of antibodies to help your child and generally will make for a more content baby. I have found that many children on formula get upset stomachs or colic more frequently than their breast fed breathren, but more importantly, I think it is just truly sad.

My brothers girlfriend recently gave birth to their baby and being 16 and immature, she did not want to deal with the breast feeding. She has told us that sometimes she'll take showers with him and he'll still try to latch on and that she has to pull him off. It just breaks my heart everytime I see him turn to her breast, or mine for that matter. Babies crave that kind of closeness and I think it is a truly priceless bonding experience. Poor little mikie even ended up sucking on her lip one time when she was kissing him. They love to feel that skin on skin contact, and I just can't help thinking it's cruel to deprive your baby of such a comforting experience.

Autumn
January 15th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Oh my! the topic lives!

I am one of the Zealots...but I have to ask, did you read the whole thread before posting this?

Sometimes BF just does not work out and we have to be gentle about this. We want to catch people before hand, not attack those who've already made the choice...

TheTempestuous1
January 15th, 2004, 04:16 PM
It is of course understandable if it doesn't work out biologically, but for someone who otherwise could do it, not to, is just plain selfish in my opinion. At least give it 3 months. And no, I just posted. I didn't have the time to read through all the pages :)

Autumn
January 15th, 2004, 04:30 PM
Then hopefully you haven't mortally insulted anyone here...There were a number of raw feelings in this thread and stories of how BF falls apart for reasons other than biological.

I would love to see everyone BF but folks need support and eduacted MD's that don't get in the way and I could go on for an hour. It is obvious to me that you will breastfeed your own children and that's excellent! maybe you will even become a La Leche league leader and help other mothers with the problems they may encounter.

Please join us Zealots by helping with the practical problems not by adding to the burden for those whose breastfeeding experience did not work out. Become a nurse and help in those crucial first days and see what really happens! And please do read the whole thread before you post! If you do you will understand what is really going on!

TheTempestuous1
January 15th, 2004, 06:34 PM
zealots? :confused: All I am saying is that a good effort should be made, if someone truly tried and it didn't work out ok fine, I just hate it when people won't do it for selfish reasons. BTW I still have not read the thread, I'll get around to it a bit later.

But overall I think it needs to be said that people around here have been being a little too "mortally insulted" lately. It's just the internet, it's just discussion and people will say varying things without intent to insult. They are merely expressing their own personal viewpoint, and that viewpoint should not have to be changed to shelter others feelings. People need to learn not to jump over the deep end about one comment, just let it roll of their back. No one can see the world from everyone elses viewpoint, so those who become offended, first consider that point, and if you still can't let it go, respond and explain, but don't expect that person to change for you. You are in charge of your own emotions and how you respond to a situation. Sometimes its just better for you to ignore things. That's just my opinion.

Autumn
January 16th, 2004, 02:27 AM
"Zealots" will become clear when you have read the thread. Generally breastfeeding falls apart sometime in the first few weeks. Most people who make three months will stick it out past a year. occasionally they will wean earlier for other reasons. Work place difficulty tops the list. sometimes it can be hard to break away and pump in jobs that do not involve a private office and if an employer is being a bonehead you may be stuck.

Funny the role change here... are Tempestous One and I all alone in here?

isee
January 16th, 2004, 04:51 PM
I believe you should do what's best for your family. I beleive breast is best...but my opinion is just that....my own. I do however urge you to try really hard to do the nursing thing.....it's the best feeling in the world!! I also believe that it helps create balanced healthy children...emotionally and physically. for more info check out www.asklenore.info
It's a canadian website which dispells myths about breast feeding, as well as give you all the information you could need! Nursing mother of 2 here.......(3 1/2 and 7mo.) and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

isee
January 16th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Fact is that a child who is exclusively breastfed can suffer malnutrition and vitamin deficiency if the mother isn't following a good helathy diet. Formula may smell worse when spit up and it may stain, but it does contain all the necessary protiens and vitamins and minerals that a child needs to thrive. Sure there are circumstances where there are allergies to formula but that isn't as frequent as you might think

This is wrong. Your body will take what it needs for the baby FIRST. I have NEVER heard of an exclusivley breast fed baby suffering from malnutrition if it is not having difficulites with eating in general. I have done a lot of research on this, when I was preparing to tandem nurse my then 2yr old with a new baby. my 2nd child is extremely healthy even with sharing the breast with his older brother. I am not a minority in this either. The womyn I know who tandem nurse 2 or more children all have healthy kids.

However, this being said I don't think anyone should feel ashamed of their choices. But please do make INFORMED choices...so there are no regrets.

Check out www.asklenore.info for more info.

winter_goddess
January 17th, 2004, 06:17 PM
I have absolutely no problems with formula......both of my children were and are formula fed...yes, breastmilk is best, but there is not enough long-term benefits to convince me that it is the only choice to make. I have seen alot of sick/termininally ill children who were breastfed, and i have seen just as many healthychildren who were formula fed.

~Winter

Amethyst Rose
January 17th, 2004, 09:28 PM
...yes, breastmilk is best, but there is not enough long-term benefits to convince me that it is the only choice to make.


Taken from http://www.dhs.state.or.us/publichealth/bf/benefits.cfm


Long-term Health Benefits for Breastfed Babies

Less childhood obesity (37-45)
Reduced risk of some chronic diseases that develop during childhood including:
juvenile diabetes, (46-50)
childhood cancers, (51-53)
and allergic disease/asthma (54-59)
Enhanced neurological development that may result in higher IQs (60) and better eyesight (61)
Suckling at the breast promotes good jaw development and encourages the growth of straight, healthy teeth

Long-term Health Benefits for a Mother who Breastfeeds

Earlier return to pre-pregnancy weight, with no return of weight once weaning occurs
Reduced risk of breast, ovarian, and endometrial cancers
Reduced risk of osteoporosis and bone fracture

That's not enough long term benefits?

Semele
January 21st, 2004, 05:01 PM
This is wrong. Your body will take what it needs for the baby FIRST. I have NEVER heard of an exclusivley breast fed baby suffering from malnutrition if it is not having difficulites with eating in general.
Well I haven't been to this thread in a while but just happened to read this post and have to reply here. I am a nurse, but this is from my own personal experience that i am currently going through with my daughter. She is five and a half weeks old now and just came from the doctor where she weighed in at 8lbs 13 oz. Her birth weight was 7lbs 8oz and she lost a lot of weight in the beginning. I was nursing exclusively until the doc had us start giving an ounce of formula after each nursing when she was still losing weight despite the large volumes of breastmilk she was taking in. i know she was taking in large volumes because I even pumped and fed it to her to see if it was an issue of volume that was keeping her from gaining weight. Finally i had to switch completely to formula as of last Tuesday because she had only gained 3 onces since birth. The culprit was my milk..not the volume but the quality. You see, there are times when the milk is insufficient and yes my child was headed for malnutrition while being solely breastfed by a nurse who knows better then to let it happen. My milk is probably deficient because of the meds I am taking but i didn't want to bother with the timely, expensive testing to determine that factor. Why deny my daughter the nutritional needs that can be easily met through formula?

Calyx
January 21st, 2004, 06:25 PM
This thread still lives?
Good Heavens! :lol:

Semele, I am sorry to hear of your problems, but it sounds like you have things nicely in hand! :) Hope all is well now.

Autumn
January 26th, 2004, 02:11 AM
Sometimes folks do encounter difficult situations! But that's why formula was invented after all...difficult situations!

I always have been bugged by the choices in this poll...so pain in the tail that I am, I am going to post a different poll! I invite all of you to come and visit my new poll and weigh in...

Sequoia
January 27th, 2004, 02:50 PM
Well, I don't know how many will make it through all those pages, but here's my $.02.

Personally, I am going to breastfeed (with any luck). From the research I've done and things I've heard, it's healthier, and it provides a better chance of a close bond between mother and child.

However, I have no idea how this 'breast pumping' thing works, and I may end up using formula for my baby, when his/her father wishes to feed him/her. I see a bottle/formula as something wonderful for adopted babies, malnutritioned babies, difficult times, and heck, perhaps even just when Daddy wants to feed his baby, too. (it'd be kind of hard for him to breastfeed! :p )

I think breastmilk is best. But I'm not going to throw a huge tantrum over formula. It's your choice. And a handy backup.

Amethyst Rose
January 27th, 2004, 03:21 PM
However, I have no idea how this 'breast pumping' thing works, and I may end up using formula for my baby, when his/her father wishes to feed him/her. I see a bottle/formula as something wonderful for adopted babies, malnutritioned babies, difficult times, and heck, perhaps even just when Daddy wants to feed his baby, too. (it'd be kind of hard for him to breastfeed! :p )


Pumping isn't hard, it just takes practice. Get a good pump like the Advent Isis or rent a hospital grade pump. Because it takes practice, dont expect to pump a lot at first, 1-2oz is good.
Even adopted babies can be breastfed. Milk is produced by hormones that can be created through nipple stimulation. Pumping daily is enough to make the body begin to produce milk. Supplementing with bottles isn't necessary (and can lead to nipple confusion/preference if done before 6 weeks of age). Instead, in cases of not enough milk or malnutrition, devices like the SNS or Lact Aid can be used to supplement at the breast.
For difficult times....well, yes, bottles can be useful then. If you want husband to be able to feed baby, then wait until he/she is old enough to avoid confusion.
If you have troubles of any kind a good IBCLC (International Board Certified Lactation Consultant) can be invaluble.

Sequoia
January 27th, 2004, 04:20 PM
Amethyst, sweetheart. . . *soft smile* I'm nineteen, and very much too young to be a mommy yet. (not critisizing those who are! Just personally am too young ;) ) I meant it more in my mind. . . a bottle would be useful for a father, or for those adopting parents who cannot produce milk. . . perhaps a gay couple, or a woman who just couldn't get it to work out. *gentle shrugs* No insult or fight was meant by it.

Amethyst Rose
January 27th, 2004, 04:34 PM
Hehe, I was wondering if I had missed something Puma, I didn't remembering hearing that you were pregnant, I guess your post just sounded like you were. My oops. :D
In any case, I was just stating facts, and offering advice that clearly isn't needed, (oops) I didn't mean to be argumentive in any way, sorry if it seemed that way.

Sequoia
January 27th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Ack! I wrote a reply and it did a browser gag -_-;;; stupid IE

Hehe sorry if I confused you! No, I do know about the mothers being able to lactate, even if they weren't pregnant (ie adoption). . . had done a little research on that a few weeks ago. It's amazing! I've even heard that some men will spontaniously develope a drop or two of milk when their wives/girlfriends/etc have a baby. It's really incredible what the human body can do.

Lyrical
January 30th, 2004, 03:14 PM
Well I have sat for the better part of an hour reading this thread from beginning to end. And while I'm a bit late to the game, I'm going to offer my opinion anyway ~~~

I have 3 children, born in 1994, 1996, and 1999. I had extremely easy and very quick labors and besides my first pregnancy which ended with toxemia, my pregnancies were easy and uneventful. Throughout my pregnancies and in the hospital, I was told over and over and over and over (!!!!) that breast was best. I had decided from the get-go that I was going to bottlefeed for personal reasons. Not once, not twice, but all three times, at some point during my pregnancy and in the hospital afterward, I had to explain in detail my personal reasons because everyone was APPALLED that I would commit the sin of bottlefeeding my child. Once people knew the reason, most backed off, however I still had statistics shoved down my throat, articles copied in copious amounts and given to me as reading material while I recovered from labor, several lactation consultants come in and ask me "Don't you just want to try it? How can you deny your child the chance to have the healthiest thing for them?". Even after I gave my personal reasons, I was still told breast was best, and that I needed to put my past behind me in order to give the best benefits and the best life to my child.

It took my third and final child to give me the guts to allow myself to be angry at these people for putting me down and making me feel like my kids were going to be unhealthy, fat children because I wasn't breastfeeding. After the nurses repeatedly encouraged me to breastfeed, and they sent the lactation consultant to "educate" me, apparently one of them thought that a member of LaLeche would help me "choose" the right thing to do. This woman came into my hospital room uninvited with her multitudes of pamplets and books and everything else to talk to me about breastfeeding. I took the pamplets and books and quietly said that I was very well educated on breastfeeding but that I had personal reasons for not doing it. She proceeded to tell me again how "Breast is best" and that it really was the better option for my newborn. I told her again that I had very personal reasons for not breastfeeding and that while I was appreciative for her concern, I wanted her to leave now. She started frowning and tried again to tell me how much healthier, how much better my child's life would be, how the SIDS risk was much lower and wasn't I concerned about SIDS?, and again don't I want my child to have all the antibodies it can get naturally? At this point I was very upset and was practically begging her to leave, I buzzed the nurse who then sent in the lactation consultant again who naturally "simply wanted me to listen" - it was then that I shouted (and was later told by one of the nurses was heard halfway down the hall) that my step-father had used my nipples as his personal playtoys for 3 years and that they had been clamped, pierced, and electrocuted and that they were MINE and if I didn't want to share them with my child that these women could go to hell, but either way they needed to GET OUT OF MY ROOM. A nurse came running, but I kid you not, that LaLeche woman looked me straight in the eye and calm as could be said "Honey, you can get counseling for that kind of abuse - and maybe breastfeeding your child would help you realize that your breasts are not terrible things". At that point, the nurse got very angry and kicked them both out and filed formal complaints for us against both of them.

So while I have read this thread from start to end, and I have seen the statistics over and over, NO ONE knows why a mother truly makes one choice or another. And NO ONE has the right to judge that mother for not doing what's "best" for her child because NO ONE can delve into the heart of a mother and KNOW if she is following her heart, following a doctor, or following the latest trend.

My biggest gripe about this whole bottle/breast "war" (and some people act like that is what it is) - is that there are very few people who support a bottlefeeding mother. Today's society is all about "Breast is Best" and believe it or not, most women ARE making an educated decision when they choose bottle over breast. And simply because they choose that way does NOT make them selfish, uncaring, more concerned about their career, or any of the other reasons that have been listed. Many of you stated that you are "nursing nazi's" because people aren't being educated about breastfeeding -- well, I'm not sure where you people live because every hospital I've been at, visited and worked at, pushed the breast. I would say that a good deal of pregnant women in America darn well know that Breast is Best and bottlefeeding is the path to child abuse! And before you say that's harsh, that's how it's presented to us laypeople. We are asked things like "Don't you want the best for your child?" and "Don't you want your child to be healthy??" - always asked incredulously, as if they just can't imagine why a person wouldn't immediately throw the bottle down, whip out their tit and immediately become the vision of Mother Breast. If that's not inflicting unnecessary guilt and unnecessary anxiety on a new mother, I don't know what is.

And for those that are passing judgement on these mothers (and regardless of what you say, many of you are *tsking* under your breath and wondering why on earth a mother WOULDN'T choose breast - which IS judging!), perhaps you haven't had to work two jobs and try to have the energy and the time to pump and produce breastmilk. Perhaps you don't understand the frustration and the unbearable feeling of being an utter failure when you are one of the women who simply doesn't produce enough milk. Perhaps you don't understand that some women are mentally unstable and require harmful medication to control it, however don't want to advertise it to the world as their reason for not breastfeeding. Perhaps you don't understand that some women don't want their breasts to be touched, aren't comfortable with having a child around their breasts or what not because of abuse in their past. Perhaps the woman is a rape victim and it is taking everything she has to have the baby of her rapist and try to create a loving environment, but isn't comfortable with breastfeeding. And before any of you say that those are reasons that are few and far between, those are reasons that very close friends of mine have had for bottle over breast. So how rare can they truly be?

And last, I understand that the term "Breast/Nursing Nazi" is insulting and I try not to use it, however, the Nazi's were a group of people who (in simple terms) felt that they were the best, they were the purest, they were the most intelligent, and that other people should be erradicated because their way is best. There have been breastfeeding supporters on this very thread that have stated over and over that they simply can't imagine why, short of extreme health issues, women do NOT breastfeed and how they (paraphrasing) think that formula should only be available to those who NEED it or as a last ditch attempt to feed your child. That THEIR way is the best way -- well, that's how the Nazi's felt too. So while the term is harsh, when you are on the other end, being chastised for your lifestyle choice, for your parenting choice, for your beliefs and feelings, you begin to feel like someone else wants to make your decisions for you, wants to treat you like a child, and wants to nearly force you into doing what THEY "know" is right. And it does bring to mind a form of "nazism" --

Ok - I've rambled long enough, however, please remember that the best way to educate is to listen, to know when to stop, and how to present your information. No one likes feeling forced into something they may not be completely comfortable with.

Sequoia
January 30th, 2004, 04:07 PM
Wow. . .hon, may I say that you've had an absolute nightmare. . . and you have incredible strength (and a hell of a lot of patienence!) not to have yelled at them the first time. I'm really proud of you.

Hey guys. . . maybe this is the other side, you know?

Autumn
January 30th, 2004, 04:26 PM
I apologize for all the zealots out there...how uncaring of them. Your story is why I do not push breastfeeding in the post partum period unless I am asked by the mother!

A sexual abuse history is good and suffcient reason to formulafeed in my book, And my response to them would have been "how is it you think you can accomplish in a half hour what years of therepy have failed to accomplish?"

Hugs and support to you!:huddle:

ivygarland
February 11th, 2004, 10:04 PM
The God and Goddess designed women to breastfeed their children. We are the ONLY species that feeds its young the milk of another animal. It is truly heartbreaking that anyone would use these beautiful lifegiving organs to inflict pain and suffering on another. Hopefully someday none of this will occur, no women will feel disgusted or be so in pain that they cannot give to their child what the Goddess intended. Until then, mankind through medical science has provided us with alternatives to let our children grow, so we can teach them love and kindness.

Biinasu
February 11th, 2004, 10:59 PM
And I'll just stick my nose in here and say one thing: I absolutely HATE the 'just fine' argument. "I bottle-fed my kids, and they're okay. :D" or "I was bottlefed, and I'm just fine."

My answer to that is always: Well, yes, and I was also bottle fed, and I'm 'just fine'. I was also severly beaten, raped, continually molested, abandoned, and at one point kidnapped - and I'm just fine. :D

Yeah, I'm just fine. Doesn't mean that I should have had to go through any of that though. I don't think that bottlefeeding is the worst thing you can do to a child, but I think that people do seriously underestimate the amount of people that truly are anti-breastfeeding.

My mother, for example. She refused to breastfeed my brother and I because, "Eeww! I can't even say the word nipples, I didn't want you guys biting them and being all on my breasts." She knows that I plan on breastfeeding (which is why I won't get a breast reduction surgery) and she thinks I'm absolutely insane.

But, to go onto the other hand...My aunt tried to breastfeed my cousin, and despite numerous LCs and doctors, she could not get it. She felt like a failure and cried for months. Would I go up to her and tell her that she's a horrible mother and that she should have tried harder, or whatever? No!

I don't think that this is a black and white issue, and there's a lot more that needs to be taken into consideration. Though, I do get annoyed with people like my mother (she's entirely serious though. The best way to make her go "OH MY GOD! GROADY TO THE MAX!" is to say the word nipples around her), but that's just my thing.

Tzhebee
February 12th, 2004, 02:22 PM
I had to vote other. I'd don't believe it's something to be ashamed of, because for some people, that the only choice they have. But I believe that if you are able, you should. But I guess I do have some qualms about it as well. IMO mothers who are able to nurse and choose not to, are being lazy. Nursing a child forces you to hold them and spend time with them. A bottle allows you to pass them off, or even prop it up-what kind of message is that sending to your child? (I'm not saying that all or even a majority of bottle-feeding mothers do that, but that it is on *option* that nursing mothers don't have).

Unless you have breastfed your children, you have no idea of the bond that you get from it. Sure you can hold and cuddle and talk while you feed with a bottle, but you just don't get the closeness like a nursed baby. Besides all the medical facts that show why the breast is so much better (health wise).

I breast fed both of my biological children. My first, I was forced to supplement with formula because I couldn't produce enough and no-one ever told me I had options. My second, I was only able to nurse for the first 3 months due to complications with pumping. With both of my children, I went through a slight depression. Not when I had to return to work at 5 and 4 WEEKS old, not when I had to leave them at a daycare; but when I stopped nursing. I felt such an emotional loss that one cannot even begin to describe with words.

I guess it was my "provider" instinct. Anyone could give my baby a bottle and provide for them using formula. But I was the only one who could give them the closeness, the bond. I was forced to take better care of my body (by way of what I ate, drank and inhaled) when I was nursing, for the betterment (is that a word?) of my child. And I was the *only* person who could provide that.

FaerieGothMommy
February 12th, 2004, 02:27 PM
Baisically, if the mother wants to formula feed for what ever reason, then so be it. That is their decision & it is their child. I do prefer for mothers to breastfeed, but if they chose not to, then i have no problems with it.

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
February 12th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Unless you have breastfed your children, you have no idea of the bond that you get from it. Sure you can hold and cuddle and talk while you feed with a bottle, but you just don't get the closeness like a nursed baby

While I agree with most of your post, I definitely disagree here. My son has been bottle feed because I tried to breastfeed for three months and couldn't do it. The stress and strain and guilt that I couldn't provide for him overrided and close bonding I could get out of nursing. Instead of being able to focus on enjoying my time with him and being able to cuddle and bond, I spent my time worrying and fussing and in tears. That kind of strain does not provide a good bonding experience.

Since I switched 5 months ago, we have been much happier. I can coo and cuddle and kiss and hug him all I want, something that wasn't an option before. Our relationship is now much stronger because of it. I deeply feel that if I had continued on the path we were on, not only would he be malnutrioned because I couldn't provide enough food for him, but the strain and stress would have completely eroded our relationship.

FaerieGothMommy
February 12th, 2004, 02:31 PM
I've seen someone else write about the bond, and unless you breastfeed you have no idea what the bond is like!

Well, alot of people actually find it traumatic, because they so desperatly want to breastfeed and expeirence that bond, and feel alot of pressure to breastfeed, that they never actually do!

I'm quite proud of myself for sticking it out, because it wasn't easy for me at all at first, and took me a while to get the hang of it and be able to enjoy it! But some women seriously do try, and they just can't! So, instead of stressing the mother & baby out, it's easier to give the baby formula.

I don't think no one should judge if a mother choises to bottle feed, especially if she give breastfeeding a shot!

BethieRose
July 1st, 2004, 08:15 PM
Dredging this up...REading through this again and someone mentioned about how you hear "breast is best" so much it makes you sick. I agree. When I said that I want better education about breastfeeding, I meant that I want more medical personnel in my area who know more about the mechanics of breastfeeding. I want more people who can give me practical support and advise about bfing that doesn't undermine my milk supply. This is the kind of education I mean.

I think we've all heard "breast is best" enough. Now it's time to take that theory and put some educated advice, support and help behind it. Because I'll tell you, just knowing that "breast is best" isn't very helpful when your nipples are on fire because of thrush and there's no ONE locally who can give practical help for resolving the issue.

edited to fix some horrible typos!

lovemy1dane
July 1st, 2004, 08:27 PM
i fed both of my kids formula and they are healthy and happy. My mother tried ot breast feed me but her milk caked so I was on formula. I think I turned out ok. I have not killed anyone lately anyway.

aluokaloo
July 1st, 2004, 08:50 PM
Formula is wonderful for people who truly need it. This means people who are truly UNABLE to breastfeed. A woman who doesn't WANT to breastfeed or one who is going back to work, or one who stops because her doctor tells her she doesn't have enough milk, etc. - those are NOT people who are unable to breastfeed.

Maybe some people just don't want to breastfeed or don't have the time. I didn't breastfeed, and my baby is fine.

There are SO many myths about breastfeeding that are simply not true. Like a baby being ALLERGIC to breastmilk. With the exception of galactosemia (which is an allergy to ALL milk proteins), NO baby is allergic to breastmilk. The baby may be sensitive or reactionary to something in the mother's DIET, but the baby is NOT allergic to the breastmilk.

Thats very true.

Formula is NOT "just as good" as breastmilk. It's a very poor substitute. I fully recognize that for some babies, it is the only choice. There ARE situations where a woman should not or can not nurse (certain medications or medical conditions, etc.). The problem I see is when women just give up on nursing without actually making an effort. The first few weeks can be EXTREMELY difficult. Asking a doctor for help is almost certainly SUICIDE for a breastfeeding relationship. Why? DOCTORS ARE NOT TRAINED IN BREASTFEEDING AT ALL. Doctors are trained about the physiology of the breast, and abnormalities like cancer and cysts and such. Nursing education should be done by a certified lactation consultant, NOT by a doctor in most cases.

Formula can lead to childhood obesity. It can lead to diabetes. It can lead to a HOST of health problems. Breastfeeding can actually reduce the risk of many of them. Did you know that nursing a child for two years can dramatically reduce your risk of breast cancer? It also reduces the baby's risk of ear infections. I don't have time to post the links, but there are many. To see some of them, go to www.breastfeeding.com

Not always true. My 4-month-old cousin breastfeeds, and he's bigger then my 11 month old daughter. I mean when you put this kid in front of her you can't see my kid! My kid has also never had a single ear-infection, she's pretty healthy. Granted breastmilk is the best choice. I despaired over the fact that I didn't breastfeed, and that I had to pump into a bottle. But I also realize now it may not have been the choice, because in some ways I'm too solitary for such a course of action.

I am not saying that formula is evil. I am not saying that parents who feed formula are evil. I freely admit that I gave formula to ALL THREE of my boys - I did not breastfeed. That was due to a lack of education. Now that I know better, if I were to have a baby I would breastfeed for AT LEAST the first year. Education is the key.

Best ways to feed a baby:

Breastmilk directly from the mother
Breastmilk in a bottle, expressed by the mother
Breastmilk from a certified milk bank
Formula

Formula is a distant FOURTH, not second best. There is no way for a lab to reproduce the immunities found in breastmilk. Breastmilk actually adapts to the needs of the individual baby with EVERY SINGLE feeding. There's no way formula can do that. They can add all the enzymes and proteins and whatever that they want to... but it will still and always be an artificial substitute for something that is FREE, natural, and perfect for babies.

aluokaloo
July 1st, 2004, 09:17 PM
You go ahead and do whatever you think is the best choice, don't shrink at the people who rail at you for putting formula in your kid's bottle. Don't look down in embarassment for popping your kid on your breast. Do whatever you feel is gonna work out the best and do it with pride and know your not a bad mother or an animalistic freak! Good luck and happy feedings! :crazylaug

djmixon
July 2nd, 2004, 02:59 AM
I did both. I was not able to stay at home with my kids, so I had to do both. I pumped as well as breastfed, but I also started them on formula around 6 months or when I had to go back to work/school.

BB
Donna

Tanya
July 2nd, 2004, 05:27 AM
I guess I a breast is bester... but i think formula is totally FINE. for me, i breast feed partly because i thought it was best (and in asia i can't read a label on a formula can, or trust what it says... we just had an incident of pesticides in chocolate milk over here) but also because.. I"M LAZY!!! 'what get up in the middle of the night... sterillize a bottle.... heat milk... blahh blahh blahh" or stumble stumble crawl crawl snuggle snuggle... snore..... with my daughter.... damned right breast is best for mom's sleep deprivation.... I also found it convient.... since i could feed her anywhere any time.
my hubby started leaning on me when she was one to wean her... but she wasn't ready to stop with the milk...though when i stopped offering the breast, I let her ask for it, but she forgot to ask inside a month.....so now she has a little bottle of formula before she goes to sleep... and i think that's fine.. and its nice to have my boobs backto being mine. she was also chewing a bit which wasn't so pleasent...

i don't think anyone should feel bad if they can't. everyone loves their kids and does the best for them that they can.... some of us have to work right away... some of us have problems breast feeding... some babies don't take to it....life is messing.. and luckily there are many good ways to muddle through it!

HorseCrow
July 2nd, 2004, 07:05 AM
I have voted OTHER. Being a midwife and a breastfeeding advisor, I have a lot of contact with breastfeeding.
There is no doubt that breastfeeding is the best thing for baby- but it also needs to be the best thing for mom, otherwise it won't work.

The list of advantages of breatsfeeding is just about endless, and it's no secret that my goal as a breastfeeding advisor is that the most women possible breastfeed their children for as long as possible, bacause that's best for baby.
But there are women, that for some reason (hardly ever physiological) cannot, or do not wish to, breastfeed and they should by no means feel less worthy or that they are bad moms, because they are NOT!

Nantonos
July 2nd, 2004, 08:34 AM
I wasn't happy with any of the choices, but finally picked the 'something to be ashamed of' option. Explanation follows.

Nurses who give a bottle of formula to newborns, thus making it harder for the mother to start breastfeeding even if she previously expressed a desire to do so, should be ashamed.

Companies that encourage nursing mothers in developing countries to buy expensive formula milk made up with water of dubious quality, as being in some unspecified way 'better than' breastfeeding, should be ashamed. But hey, then they get to sell medicines for ilnesses caused by over-diluted formula milk and polluted water and a lack of maternal immune support (igs and white cells) in natural milk.

OTOH a woman who cannot breastfeed for whatever reason clearly should not be ashamed to use formula milk. So its not a universal thing.

Breast-fed kids are more alert and less likely to be lactose intolerant, though.

Sleet
July 2nd, 2004, 08:51 AM
I have voted OTHER. Being a midwife and a breastfeeding advisor, I have a lot of contact with breastfeeding. There is no doubt that breastfeeding is the best thing for baby- but it also needs to be the best thing for mom, otherwise it won't work.

Wiser words were never spoken.


Breast-fed kids are more alert and less likely to be lactose intolerant, though.

:D While my head knows that's true statistically, my son is so amazingly lactose intolerant that, while he was getting his nutrition from the breast, his mother couldn't eat any food made with so much as a drop of butter, lest he spend the next several hours projectile-vomiting. We spent the first 18 months of his life completely without dairy, knowing we were doing best by him but constantly wondering "Isn't this supposed to be easier? It was with our first!" ;) Every kid is different, every mom is different

Sleet
July 2nd, 2004, 08:59 AM
What us breastfeeding zealots are trying to do is change us back to a culture where most people do breastfeed, like 75 to 90%. Then in time our young mothers will have Mothers and Aunties who can help and they are better at it then all the lactation consultants put together. If I have a teen mom trying to breastfeed the best indicator of her success is her being on good terms with her own mother who successfully breastfed.

I'm so happy that our circle of friends - primarily three couples - are all breastfeeding our children, and nobody feels the need to go off to another room or hide it. Our daughter is growing up seeing women b/f all around her, and it will never be weird or strange to her.

Autumn
July 2nd, 2004, 01:22 PM
Smiles....I am pushing up a thread with a slightly different poll, once I find it.

soilsigh aingeal
July 2nd, 2004, 03:40 PM
I used formula for my daughter and I'm using formula for my son. It is a very PERSONAL descision and I chickened out when I had my daughter and since I was used to it already, that's why I chose it for my son. I changed my mind a week after we came home and I put my breast to his mouth and he wouldn't even take it. I felt horrible so I just gave up... then I changed my mind again at the very last minute and the LC I spoke to told me there was still hope if I could still squeeze anything out of my nipple (around 5 weeks PP) and she said to only offer him the breast. Well I didn't think my little guy was getting anything since my breasts were already shrunken back down and I never got any engorgement back. I gave him my breast every half hour for 12 hours because he'd gone that long w/out wanting and then for the next oh say 24 hours every hour and then he started screaming every 30 minutes again. My daughter was 16 months old and since it was just the three of us at home all day she was pretty much being ignored, I was frazzled which wasn't helping so I just gave him a bottle to make all of us happy. And on that note, my son has had one cold this winter which he probably got from one of the kids at the babysitters house. He's perfectly healthy... Both of them are. The fact that chose a bottle over my breast for my children does not make me a horrible person, what ever works the best is the best descision you can make for your children.

And about that no ear infections thing, my siblings and myself were breastfed and my brother had tubes in his ears by the time he was 2 and I had them at 1. So that's not entirely true.

LadyTrinity
July 2nd, 2004, 04:25 PM
Formula is NOTHING to be ashamed of. Some times people dont have an option. Frankly.. to be honest its healthier to get ANY breast milk in the 1st week of babies life.. but if it cant be done.. get over it and feed ur baby.. cant let it go hungry! Alot of formula like Enfamil contains ingredits found in breat milk! Advancements are wonderful.

I breast fed for 5 days then Dylan wanted so much I was feeding every hour and couldnt sleep.. was depressed & tired and he was hungry. So the doc recommended an electric pump... pump what?!?! lol.. I tried and I had hardly anything. Now I have this brand new electric pump I paid 65$ for and it sits in my kitchen cubbord. *sighs*
Do what you think is best for your baby's health :thumbsup:
Dont let people make u feel bad about something you cant control. Your not a bad parent for feeding your infant formula... u'd be a bad parent to not feed ur child at all. :ringaroun

Nantonos
July 2nd, 2004, 05:09 PM
Formula is NOTHING to be ashamed of. Some times people dont have an option. Frankly.. to be honest its healthier to get ANY breast milk in the 1st week of babies life..

Wise words, that is the most critical time


but if it cant be done.. get over it and feed ur baby.. cant let it go hungry! Alot of formula like Enfamil contains ingredits found in breat milk! Advancements are wonderful.

yes they are, but its still a passive nutritional source and not an active extension of the babies fledgeling immune system. To suggest its 'shamefull' ias the poll does is missing the point; to suggest its just as good as breast feeding is also missing the point.


u'd be a bad parent to not feed ur child at all. :ringaroun

Well clearly :) as already pointed out, this poll is very lacking in useful options.

StephanieAine
July 6th, 2004, 12:13 PM
I'm one of the mothers who *needed* formula, because I had a breastfeeding emergency of sorts.

I nursed my daughter until she was a few months old - but I had planned to nurse at least until her first birthday. When she was a few months old, her weight dropped dramatically, although she was nursing very frequently. It turned out that my milk, for some reason, had no calories/nutritional content, so she was malnourished. I was very depressed when I found this out, and they told me I had to immediately stop nursing and give her formula. And, of course, bring her in every few days to be weighed to be sure she was thriving properly.

It was the saddest experience; we came home from the pediatrician and she started sucking on my shirt constantly, didn't want to take the bottle, and I was in tears but trying to be calm. Finally I got her to drink it, but the only way was to keep nursing her in between bottles, just so she felt safe and would calm down a bit. Unfortunately, she was allergic to ****all***** the formulas; we tried probably eight different kinds, until we ended up using Isomil (soy formula). Thankfully, she did very well with Isomil, and did gain weight and get up to normal pretty quickly... but I did keep nursing her at bedtime, just in hopes that she was getting antibodies that would help her fight colds/flu/infection, and help her to feel like her routine was normal. I ended up adding rice cereal to her diet a few months later, which really helped her significantly.

Formula is, of course, second-best to the breast... in general. But in my case, and certainly in many others, BREAST MILK is second best, and the very best (and only) option is formula. Without Isomil, I wouldn't have this wonderful eighteen year old daughter that I have today; I'm very glad that formula was available.

Kalika
July 25th, 2004, 11:01 PM
My fiance and I have already decided to bottle feed for a variety of reasons... one of the main ones being that both our families have had little to NO success with breastfeeding - and the doctor suggested to me that I avoid the stress on us and the baby.

But I totally think that it should be the mother's and father's decision - yes, so they say breast is best - but if the baby doesn't take to it right away, it can cause a ton of unnecessary strain on the parents and the baby - and I don't think that's fair.

I also don't think that its right that people try to make someone feel bad or like they are inadequate parents because they choose not to breast-feed - it simply isn't true. They wouldn't have come up with an alternative if it wasn't healthy and safe for the baby. I'm not saying here on MW - I've seen it from mothers who breast feed to those who don't - and I've seen the one who doesn't brought to tears because the other implied that she was a bad mother FOR THIS REASON ALONE. Like I said... not fair. A good mother/parent is more than breastfeeding your baby. Its love, nurturing, and taking and making the time for your child in other ways.

Just my .02

Amethyst Rose
July 27th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Hmm. I don't want to hurt any feelings here, or get anyone upset with me....but I feel that my opinion needs to be heard.
I wouldn't say that not breastfeeding makes a person a bad parent. However, I do question why a person wouldn't want to give the baby the best there is. Why wouldn't you even try???? There are lactation consultants and the La Leche League to help you try to make a successfull run of it. But to not even TRY??? I just don't understand the logic behind it. After my surgery, I was told that there was a 75% chance that I wouldn't be able to breastfeed. I still chose to. I went through months of hell, (as do many many mothers), to breastfeed my baby because I knew it was best for him. My stress levels were secondary to his health.
I can respect a woman who tries to breastfeed, but eventually gives up because she finds it too painfull, with cracked nipples and infection, or if the baby just won't latch on, and the stress is too much. The least you can do though is give it a chance. Just because others couldn't do it doesn't mean you can't...especially with the resources available to you....
K....I'm done....

Linx
July 28th, 2004, 06:11 PM
I have always heard breastmilk is best, I am not going to get into what I think about either formula or breastmilk. I just wanted to point out my experience, since so much evidence points to breastfed babies being healthier.

My son was not breastfed. I was only 16, had a c-section, and was pretty uneducated about breastfeeding. Since I had such a difficult time in labor (almost died) and spent a long time in recovery, my son was already on a bottle and formula when I was finally able to try to feed him. He refused me, and at 16 I did not have the patience, or the know how to change it. He had allergies to many of the formulas, and ended up on goats milk.So he was a formula fed/milk fed baby. Whole milk as of 12 mos.

My daughter, well, I had a really bad labor with her too, another emergency c-section. I am just not built to have children. However, I was older, wiser, and more of a fighter. So, I was a lot tougher through this one. Heck, most of the anesthesia wore off before the surgery was even done, so after about 30 mins in recovery, I was ready to get up and walk LOL. They would not let me, but I was brought my daughter, and was able to feed her right away. Feeding her was so much easier then it had been when I tried with my son. I stuck with it, and breastfed her until she was 6 mos old. By then, she was sitting, crawling, and drinking out of s sippy cup. I pumped my milk for another 2 months, until it became a PITA, since she was drinking from a cup, and enjoying as much other solid food as she could have. After speaking with her doctor, as, I was going to stop pumping. he asked me to give her formula to suppliment. Well she puked up the formulas, and I went with instinct, and placed her on goats milk as well... Once she hit a year old it was whole milk all the way.

The thing is, my son has been so very healty, it is unbelievable. Aside from getting hurt somehow, he never has to go to the DRS. My daughter, well, she is the one who always gets sick, had ear infections, and has asthma. I really thought it would be the other way around. I think it all just depends on DNA :lol:

StormChaser
July 30th, 2004, 01:59 AM
I went into pregnancy with the idea that since I was endowed with huge tits I would breastfeed. I figured it would be cheaper and better and what nature intended.
Currently my daughter is a perfectly, EXTREMELY happy, fully connected 5 month old, weighing 13.5 lbs, and was bottlefed from Day one.

Tara came out weighing 8lbs 14oz and had an appetite to match. I tried breastfeeding apr 5 times. First at the hospital, but my milk wouldn't come and it was just painful. I was exhausted and really the last thing after all that work that I wanted to do, was work more. I tried a few more times at home, but I didn't enjoy breastfeeding, Tara didn't seem to enjoy the process, and I wasn't about to -fight- my daughter for a kind of relationship neither of us seemed to want.

I breast pumped for a while, it was several weeks before my milk actually really started to come in. What i got in the meanwhile I added to bottles, then i alternated. This just seemed to be excessive. When Tara started to get really gassy I stopped added breastmilk and let her stick to her formula.

Breastfeeding advocates seem to enjoy gettng on soap boxes, and condemning women who don't breast feed. They knock women who don't want to by calling them selfish, and give small pardons out to those who are simply incapable- pardoning and pitying them as if they are second rate. The audacity.

My grandmother couldn't breastfeed any of her children, my mother couldn't get -me- to breastfeed, and -i- simply didn't want to. Concious choice or not, NONE of us or our children have suffered physically or emotionally.

Do whats right for you and your baby as you see fit. Don't let anyone else tear you down because they think they have the market on what is best. Whether you breast or bottle feed I gaurantee you theres a huge community who supports you, some who share your reasoning, some who simply understand that its a PERSONAL choice.

~SC

StormChaser
July 30th, 2004, 02:23 AM
Hmm. I don't want to hurt any feelings here, or get anyone upset with me....but I feel that my opinion needs to be heard.
I wouldn't say that not breastfeeding makes a person a bad parent. However, I do question why a person wouldn't want to give the baby the best there is. Why wouldn't you even try???? There are lactation consultants and the La Leche League to help you try to make a successfull run of it. But to not even TRY??? I just don't understand the logic behind it. After my surgery, I was told that there was a 75% chance that I wouldn't be able to breastfeed. I still chose to. I went through months of hell, (as do many many mothers), to breastfeed my baby because I knew it was best for him. My stress levels were secondary to his health.
I can respect a woman who tries to breastfeed, but eventually gives up because she finds it too painfull, with cracked nipples and infection, or if the baby just won't latch on, and the stress is too much. The least you can do though is give it a chance. Just because others couldn't do it doesn't mean you can't...especially with the resources available to you....
K....I'm done....

I have yet to meet a member of La Leche League that I could stomach.

More over, its been shown that the nutrients a baby recieves from breastfeeding are really at their most importance during the first 72 hours. After that breast or formula it hardly makes a difference.

Sure I tried, and both my daughter and I hated it. If you want to be the kind of parent that forces a relationship on their child rather than really embracing your childs individuality and unique desires and ways, you go right ahead and be that person. I have never stressed over my daughter, and she is a very carefree child. When breastfeeding turned out to be more of a pain in the ass then it appeared to be worth I stopped and did things in a manner we could both agree on. I barely nursed her neck once she showed signs that she was capable of holding hear head up at 3 weeks. She was capable of holding it up without effort by a month and a half. I didn't force her to stay on her stomach for 'tummy time' when she started to fuss. Now shes 5 months old and holds my hands to walk around.

Yes, you can fight your child tooth and nail to do whats best for him or her, or you can take some clues from your kid and find a happy medium where health, safety, and comfort go hand and hand.

StormChaser
July 30th, 2004, 02:27 AM
Hrm, my daughter was bottle fed...
She has also already tasted icecream (loves Eggnog flavored and Swiss Chocolate.. good tastes say i)
No problem there.

My cousin johnny... breastfed.. EXTREMELY lactose intollerant. Also very allergic to peanuts. He was also extremely colicky, and every fall and winter he gets every cold thats going around, where as his siblings, who were both bottle fed are rarely ever sick.

Aowyn
July 30th, 2004, 02:57 AM
Hrm, my daughter was bottle fed...
She has also already tasted icecream (loves Eggnog flavored and Swiss Chocolate.. good tastes say i)
No problem there.

My cousin johnny... breastfed.. EXTREMELY lactose intollerant. Also very allergic to peanuts. He was also extremely colicky, and every fall and winter he gets every cold thats going around, where as his siblings, who were both bottle fed are rarely ever sick.
We could all sit here and talk til our faces turn blue about this or that person who we know that got sick as a kid or had asthma and blame it on them having formula or on having breastmilk but really there is no way of knowing if that really had anything to do with these ailments. Face it people we all get sick some of us get sick more often then others thats just the nature of the universe.
Personally I had a C-section and nursed my now 4 mo old within the first few hours and allowed them to give him formula that evening (when I was still out of it from the super painkillers and was afraid I would drop him if I tryed to do it alone.) I went through the terrible 2 weeks where the baby is absolutely torturing you and beleive me at times he actually drew blood. Yet I continued, despite the fact that he spit up frequently and there were nurses who suggested otherwise I changed my diet and he stopped having tummy problems. He didn't gain weight as fast as the charts suggested he should (although I suspect since said charts are made by formula companies that might have something to do with it since breastfed babies gain at a different rate) and I decided to give him a bottle of FORMULA now and then as a supplement. I do not regret this and neither does he, he now weighs over twice his birthweight and drinks both formula and mama milk. I see nothing wrong with this, and beleive that anyone who has at least attempted to nurse deserves alot of credit for their effort, to those that use formula well I must admit it's alot easier and as long as you are taking care of your baby who am I to rain on your parade. I would however like to make one comment that may get me in hot water, my boy definately prefers to nurse and will almost always take a bottle of breast milk over formula. I think it may have something to do with the fact that formula tastes kinda Icky and the other is sweet.....yeah I know you are all probobly grossed out now but I was curious so i did a little taste test.
Also a note about the history of formula, it was originally called fake milk but they decided to change the name because people acted adversely to the connotations. Oh yeah and anyone who is using Nestle please stop and use something else they are responsible for the deaths of thousands of babies in 3rd world countries where they convinced the women to use their formula because it would be "better" for the babies and gave free samples to them. The women who took it ended up drying up their milk supply and their children ended up dead because they were not properly informed on how to prepar the formula. (their water supply was bad) This all happened many years ago but i thought you should know. :hairraise

Nantonos
July 30th, 2004, 06:26 AM
More over, its been shown that the nutrients a baby recieves from breastfeeding are really at their most importance during the first 72 hours. After that breast or formula it hardly makes a difference.

I would love to see a pointer to where this has been shown, since it contradicts basic biochemical facts.

FeatherGoblinglimmer
July 30th, 2004, 07:40 AM
Actually no it doesn't, The milk that a mother produces for the first 3 days or there abouts is called colostrum, it is slightly different from normal breastmilk as it passes down antibodies and extra nutrients to your baby..

Here's a link i have found on it.

La leche organisation (http://www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/colostrum.html)

Sleet
July 30th, 2004, 09:34 AM
Yes, you can fight your child tooth and nail to do whats best for him or her, or you can take some clues from your kid and find a happy medium where health, safety, and comfort go hand and hand.

All else being equal, breast milk is best, according to almsot all the information out there.

The important past of that past sentence is "all else being equal". A tired, angry, frustrated mom is a not-so-good mom. If continuing on the breast is making everyone involved miserable, it's a very strong indicator that all else is NOT equal. There are indeed other factors involved in the decision, as you've pointed out here.

Like most things in life, It's Not That Simple (tm).

Kalika
July 31st, 2004, 06:22 PM
Hmm. I don't want to hurt any feelings here, or get anyone upset with me....but I feel that my opinion needs to be heard.
I wouldn't say that not breastfeeding makes a person a bad parent. However, I do question why a person wouldn't want to give the baby the best there is. Why wouldn't you even try???? There are lactation consultants and the La Leche League to help you try to make a successfull run of it. But to not even TRY??? I just don't understand the logic behind it. After my surgery, I was told that there was a 75% chance that I wouldn't be able to breastfeed. I still chose to. I went through months of hell, (as do many many mothers), to breastfeed my baby because I knew it was best for him. My stress levels were secondary to his health.
I can respect a woman who tries to breastfeed, but eventually gives up because she finds it too painfull, with cracked nipples and infection, or if the baby just won't latch on, and the stress is too much. The least you can do though is give it a chance. Just because others couldn't do it doesn't mean you can't...especially with the resources available to you....
K....I'm done....

Some women simply aren't comfortable with the idea of it. For others it is stressful, or inconvienent. Some want the fathers to be more involved with the feeding, etc. There are a MILLION reasons why a woman wouldn't choose to try. If you KNOW it would be stressful for you beforehand, and THAT would be hard on the baby as well as on you, why would you put yourself or the baby through that?

Hmm... so, because someone is not going to even try breastfeeding, you have no respect for their decision, or did I misread?

MarinaSulis
July 31st, 2004, 07:44 PM
More over, its been shown that the nutrients a baby recieves from breastfeeding are really at their most importance during the first 72 hours. After that breast or formula it hardly makes a difference.


Actually, that's completely incorrect. Don't want to embarass you, but I feel it's important not to disseminate incorrect information.

Colostrum, the first milk, is very different than the later milk; that's true. However, there are vast differences between breastmilk and formula, even once the mature milk is in. Breastmilk contains immunities, hormones, cholesterol, growth factors, Omega-3s, and enzymes [among other things] that formula does not have, and likely, will never have.

Luckily, babies can survive and do well on formula anyway. However, breastmilk confers a great deal more benefits. If you need the study citations, PM me.

Annest
September 6th, 2004, 07:06 AM
I brestfeed my first son, no problems at all. But with my second son it was different it just didnīt work, so Iīm giving him formula.
Brest feeding is the best for numerus reasons, wich others have already stated in this thread. But if you canīt breastfeed, there is no reason to be ashamed NOMATTER what other people say!

When my SIL had her first child, the breastfeeding didnīt work. And the idiots at the hospital and later at the childwelfare centre didnīt help her,the only thing they did was to make her feel insecure,stupid and that she was a bad mother.
When her nipples were bleeding the only thing she was told was to "cheer up and keep trying".It never did work out.She had bad luck, she meet nurses that had no idea how to handle people. With her second child she also had problems with brestfeeding but this time she met nurses that helped her instead of branding her as a bad mother.Things worked out just fine and she breastfeed him (partly) til he was 14 month.

Of couse you have to try, but the ability to breastfeed doesnīt make a mother!

Nantonos
September 6th, 2004, 07:26 AM
I'm wondering whether this poll is worth continuing with, because the only two options force people into a ploarised position.

Most people seem to say that breastfeeding is best and also that it is not always possible for various reasons. I have not heard anyone say "anyone who does not breastfeed is evil and should be ashamed of themselves" nor have I many say "its exactly as good as breast feeding (or better)".

A poll with a wider range of realistic options would be better imo.

Tullip Troll
September 8th, 2004, 08:11 AM
I think Formula should be used as a last resort...I know that sounds mean...but I really think Breast milk is beyond better for babies..I also think women give up to soon...I also think it's pushed on women...

WOmen have so much pressure it's amazing we can produce milk at all.

MheraPai

Ceres
April 25th, 2007, 10:38 AM
Wow, somebody has been digging in the archives. :lol: It wasnt me! Someone must have replied to the poll, but not posted because the most recent post before mine was 2004.

Looks like a thread started with the intent to stir some kaka. I havent read the thread through because I have seen this argument played out so many times in so many places that I know it by heart. Its unfortunate it so often comes down to this.

Sequoia
April 25th, 2007, 01:49 PM
Wow, somebody has been digging in the archives. :lol: It wasnt me! Someone must have replied to the poll, but not posted because the most recent post before mine was 2004.

No kidding! Someone had me quoted as Puma Hime! Now that's old!

Like I said before, though... breast is best, but formula isn't anything to be too ashamed of.

Sakurako
April 25th, 2007, 08:01 PM
The way I figure it, is...

If you want to give them formula...give them formula.

If you want to give them milk...give them milk.


I totally agree with this statement. While I recognize breast may be best in most situations this is not always the case.

I didn't produce even a drop of breastmilk - zip, nada. (Neither did my mother with me though she successfully breastfed my brother.) I didn't have a choice and was made to feel a failure - to the point a nurse pointed me out to the other mothers in the ward as a failure.

I also dont agree with the statement that if you CAN breastfeed you automatically should. I have friends who are single working mothers who don't have the choice to pop out of the office every couple of hours to feed their daughters if they want to keep a roof over their heads.
I have another who has a huge problem (emotionally) with her breasts - there is no way she would be able to bond with her baby if she was to breastfeed.

I'm just trying to say - don't pigionhole mothers, every situation, every mother and baby is different and should be treated indivually.

Ceres
April 25th, 2007, 08:07 PM
Its like the years between the first post and this never happened...lol

But notice, no one is disagreeing with your sentiment, Sobiane....at least not in three intervening years. :)

Morr
April 25th, 2007, 08:43 PM
I don't see feeding forumla as a problem.

Whatever works for the mom and baby. It's nobody else's business.

RainInanna
April 25th, 2007, 09:59 PM
Looks like a thread started with the intent to stir some kaka. I havent read the thread through because I have seen this argument played out so many times in so many places that I know it by heart. Its unfortunate it so often comes down to this.

I agree. So often I see mothers defending their side when it seems we can all agree it is up to every individual and their baby.

PandoraHealer
June 17th, 2007, 01:44 AM
Child # 1- born weighing 9.9- I didn't get milk in until 8 days after birth- he turned yellow on day 5... we fed him- he slept, he went back pink, he stopped crying... i breast fed the majority of the time until about week 6 when his first tooth started coming in- NO THANK YOU!!!! formula after that!!!

Child # 2- born weighing 7.15- was immediatly flown 3 hours away and i was left in a hosp. bed with no access to a baby or pump to breast feed- it wasnt until late the next night when we got to that hosp. 3 hours away and they brought me a pump to use WHILE I WAS THERE. i stayed there most of the day and went to my dads to sleep- no pumping over night. i pumped and pumped and pumped- never produced very much....
She had a tumor that went from her brain cavity down to her cheek and she was unable to drink from a breast or bottle- she had to be tube fed. so i HAD to pump- after about 3 weeks- i stopped producing..... she was put on a special formula- Pregestamil- (gag) and it was mixed to 24 calories. the dr.s weren't as worried about her getting sick easier- she was always in the hosp and on a million drugs like amoxacillin and various others to fight infection after each surgery....

I don't feel guilty- i did at first but then I realized its all those "breastfeed or you'll kill your baby" people that made me feel that way....

BB-PH

Sequoia
June 17th, 2007, 01:45 AM
I don't feel guilty- i did at first but then I realized its all those "breastfeed or you'll kill your baby" people that made me feel that way....

:hugz:

Tanya
June 17th, 2007, 08:14 AM
I'm not anti formula, so much as pro-breast feeding. that said, sometimes breast feeding just doesn't work out, then thank the Goddess forumla is available.

my real anti feeling is towards formula makers like Nestle who have KILLED thousands of babies in the 3rd world by convincing mothers that breastmilk was "primitive' and that 'modern' women use formula... which these poor women mix up with the tainted water...

People are unaware in the western world that the biggest killer of children under two world wide is water borne illness... and that drinking formula instead of good clean, primitive breast milk exposes them to contaminated water

Athena-Nadine
June 17th, 2007, 09:38 AM
I'm not anti formula, so much as pro-breast feeding. that said, sometimes breast feeding just doesn't work out, then thank the Goddess forumla is available.

my real anti feeling is towards formula makers like Nestle who have KILLED thousands of babies in the 3rd world by convincing mothers that breastmilk was "primitive' and that 'modern' women use formula... which these poor women mix up with the tainted water...

People are unaware in the western world that the biggest killer of children under two world wide is water borne illness... and that drinking formula instead of good clean, primitive breast milk exposes them to contaminated water
:fpraise:

Sequoia
June 17th, 2007, 09:03 PM
I'm not anti formula, so much as pro-breast feeding. that said, sometimes breast feeding just doesn't work out, then thank the Goddess forumla is available.

my real anti feeling is towards formula makers like Nestle who have KILLED thousands of babies in the 3rd world by convincing mothers that breastmilk was "primitive' and that 'modern' women use formula... which these poor women mix up with the tainted water...

People are unaware in the western world that the biggest killer of children under two world wide is water borne illness... and that drinking formula instead of good clean, primitive breast milk exposes them to contaminated water

Well said!

TheWomanMonster
July 6th, 2007, 02:33 PM
I think the rest of you have pretty much said it.
I feel that as long as the child is getting the nourishment that they need to develop and grow into healthy strong kiddos it's all good.

That being said, my personal preference will be breastfeeding if I am able, for the first few months at the very least, for the sake of the bonding experience (but as was stated that's not for everyone) as well as to ensure that my little one gets all of those healthy wonderful antibodies and such that they can only have passed on in breast milk.

My own Mother breast fed me and my younger brother for at least 6 months I believe and then switched to formula for convenience sake. Nothing to be ashamed of what so ever, just be educated when selecting formulas to ensure that they will provide the little one with what they need.

Women are unique and remarkable creatures, we are all individual and it is refreshing to see that in the MW community as well.

So blessings to all the Mothers, and Mothers to be, and the rest of you as well.

aluokaloo
July 9th, 2007, 03:47 PM
no there's nothing wrong with it. Go for it, and screw the rest of em!

aluokaloo
July 9th, 2007, 03:49 PM
I'm not anti formula, so much as pro-breast feeding. that said, sometimes breast feeding just doesn't work out, then thank the Goddess forumla is available.

my real anti feeling is towards formula makers like Nestle who have KILLED thousands of babies in the 3rd world by convincing mothers that breastmilk was "primitive' and that 'modern' women use formula... which these poor women mix up with the tainted water...

People are unaware in the western world that the biggest killer of children under two world wide is water borne illness... and that drinking formula instead of good clean, primitive breast milk exposes them to contaminated water

well I can see your point of it, but the way I figure it is if the water the people in 3rd world countries is tainted or diseased, breast-milk is just as likely to kill em or get them sick anyways.

Seren_
July 9th, 2007, 04:09 PM
well I can see your point of it, but the way I figure it is if the water the people in 3rd world countries is tainted or diseased, breast-milk is just as likely to kill em or get them sick anyways.

How?

aluokaloo
July 9th, 2007, 04:31 PM
uhh...if the water source is tainted or diseased in third world countries then the women drinking them could pass it on through breast-milk.

Seren_
July 9th, 2007, 05:27 PM
But given the nature of breastmilk and the antibodies etc that get passed through it, if it were to happen (and I'm not sure if the bacteria would get passed through it), the baby would be better protected than if they were on formula, and therefore less likely to die.

Jackabo
July 9th, 2007, 08:22 PM
I think there are legitimate reasons to use formula in lieu of breastmilk, but that in the majority of cases none of those reasons really apply. I think there have already been a lot of very good posts explaining how I feel, so I won't go into it too much more, but I will say that I strongly encourage every mother who is able to breastfeed their baby. There really isn't a good reason to intentionally feed inferior food to your kids when you have other options.

Ceres
July 10th, 2007, 07:00 AM
uhh...if the water source is tainted or diseased in third world countries then the women drinking them could pass it on through breast-milk.

The mother would produce antibodies to fight the illness herself and those antobodies would be passed to the baby in the human milk , protecting the infant from disease. Human milk contains so many antibodies, that left sitting out without being refrigerated, it will kill any bacteria it comes in contact with for SIX HOURS before any is even able to grow in it. Its antibacterial properties are not a minor point - they are quite potent.

There are certain things that CAN be passed through the breastmilk, such as toxins, but they would be in far lesser proportion via the human milk than if they were fed directly to the infant mixed with the formula and furthermore, many toxins, such as lead, are not passed through the breastmilk to the infant AT ALL, therefore protecting the baby completely.

Magicfuzzies
July 15th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Although I agree heartily that breastmilk is the best first choice for your baby, formula won't kill baby and I feel it's ignorant and really not fair of people (not naming names or pointing fingers) to criticize a mother's choice on what to feed her baby.

I wound up having to give formula to both of my babies as I had a horrible time with pain during nursing and even found pumping to be painful. It turns out that I had Raynaud's of the nipple and I wasn't diagnosed until I had almost given up nursing my second baby. By the time I had gone through enough treatment (consisting of a pile of meds and supplements) to be able to try nursing again, my little girl didn't want me.

Though I don't like formula (mainly because of the additives and sugar), it was the best alternative for us.

Thanks for letting me vent my answer!