Burning Times

[Scarlet Swan]

This is more of a sick suggestion from my deranged hubby than my doing, so blame him.

I just read a wonderful post which was derailed by the inclusion of a "Burning Times" reference.

We have been traditionally out of touch with the world wide web in past years. Do people still make reference to this misconception (sorry but this is our view)?

Do Pagans still feel they are somehow owed retribution for, or should live in fear of something which never happened to them? I know this was collecting steam some years ago, but thought it was squashed by education and research.

I am sorry to make such light of this, but we have found this to be a powerful piece of history which has become distorted by Pagan opinion. What are the views of this community? We are literally, Pagan web illiterate (we are just now stumbling on to certain websites etc., and compile most of our knowledge from sources other than the internet), as I am sure most of you are figuring out.

If this is an offensive topic, please remove it. Rocking the boat is our strongest teaching tool, and we use it OFTEN. It rates right up there with shaking the hell out of the knowledge tree to see what falls out.

Scarlet Swan

[Mairwen]

Rocking the boat is our strongest teaching tool, and we use it OFTEN. It rates right up there with shaking the hell out of the knowledge tree to see what falls out.
Scarlet Swan

Heh! We do the same thing! And it makes such a great sounding rattle!!

As for "tbt" ... I think they're overdone, overrated, and "so 20th century". *snort* But seriously, it's an era that has been blown totally out of proportion ~ besides that, it's OVER. This is NOW ~ get out and make a difference. ;-)

[Scarlet Swan]

For someone who is suppose to live in the present, FOR the future, Wiccans sure do dwell in the past alot. Are other Pagans like this?

Heh, just going for that wonderful rattling sound again :)

Scarlet Swan

[Mairwen]

I don't know about other groups, but I know that we, as a Tradition, certainly don't! Living in the past, living in the future ~ it gets you nowhere. The present moment is what counts. It's like ... Going around in circles doesn't make you a big wheel. LOL!

We even have a clause in our Craft Law that states:

These Laws were given of Old for our well-bring, and not to be a burden to us. Therefore, keep the Laws in keeping with the nature of the times, change those that no longer apply, and write new ones when and if they're needed.


We also have a statement which reads:

"A Gwyddon knows the nature and ways of his times." ;)

[Edited by Mairwen on 02-15-2001 at 11:09 PM]

[Kaylara]

I like the post, (and the critique). By the little blurb about the Burning Times that I put in the last post, I showed a clear difference between Physical history, and what I personally feel is a real and present happening.
I do not blame present day christian for what their ancestors did, nor do I expect the same treatment from them. What I see in the present day is not a literal, physical burning times, but a psychological, emotional version of them.
To clear up my stand points on a few things, I will list them here:

1.) Bush's faith based initiative is ill planned, detrimental to the US government, borderline illegal, and discriminatory.

2.) Ten Commandments in schools and monments of Silence in schools as a way of bringing "God" back into schools, and to keep kids from killing each other is wrong. That presses religion on children who may not have one, or may have one that is considered outside of the mainstream.

3.) The new proposal for schools to teach "abstinence" as sex education doesn't prepare children for real life. There are STD's and dead-beat fathers out there in the real world. We cannot change a situation by telling kids to ignore the fact that they are sexual beings. Plus, (and many have agreed with me on this one.) when you tell a kid not to do something, what is the first thing that they want to do? Exactly what you just told them not to because they want to test their boundaries, and find out why you are saying it's wrong.

4.) Government executions... This one is worthy of it's own post. I am against the government having the right to commit murder.

These are just a few beliefs I have about the current climate and happenings in this country. The new administration is very *VERY* Christian oriented. This does not spell out good things for pagans,towards whom the new president has already stated numerous times the opinion that we do not follow a "real" relgious path. It is my belief that he will therefore not do anything to protect our right of freedom of religion.

For me, this is a very emotionally and psychologically trying time. Not for personal reasons, but because of what I see happening. Yes the Physical Burning Times happened, and yes, it was a horrible time. Now, lets work on the after effects of that. I try to look at the Burning times then and now not as something to fear, but as something to work on correcting, both the misconceptions about what happened then, and what is happening now. Please do not get so hung up on my terminology that you miss the point of my posting.
And thank you, you can shake my tree any day (or night)LOL!

Blessed Be!
Kaylara

(Phew, just realized that I went off on a tangent... Sorry guys, I'll address this better tomorrow, Gotta get to bed right now> :) )

[Edited by Kaylara on 02-15-2001 at 11:31 PM]

[Scarlet Swan]

Some of the best lessons I have ever learned started out as a conversation about something else.

:)

Scarlet Swan

[Kaylara]

I think that I missed my own point when I posted last night. (LOL)

The reason why I posted those standpoints on certain issues was to show some of the reasons I believe that the emotional/psychological burning times are not over...

Purhaps I would have gone about it better by not using the terminology that I did, but I have no other discription that fits as well within a pagan context right now.

I agree with the statement "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." That doesn't mean becoming obsessed with what happened in the past, but it doesn't mean ignoring that it ever happened. I have never heard anyone say that the Jewish people should forget The Holocaust, and the previous Holocausts of their people. I have heard that African Americans should forget the fact that their people were stolen into slavery and all of the things that went along with it.(I think this is from people who don't want to hear the but I'm a minority speech.) I think that if you don't obsess about the past, but remember it, it will help you along your path. Those people who are still seeking retribution for what our ancestors did to each other should understand that every group in history has been oppressed, etc. by another group, and has suppressed groups itself.

But now we have larger issues at hand. What are we going to do as a people to make sure that we don't do these things, and that someone else doesn't do them to us. What can we do to make this world better. I'm almost certain that there are very few pagans who would wantonly harm another for their personal gain. Many of the pagans that I know what to help everyone, from family and friends, to complete strangers. This is not to help them find "the one true path" or god, but to help them be happy, to live free, to understand that we all have our path in this world and to get along with one another.

These are lessons that are learned everyday, just through living life. But, I feel that we in the pagan community sit on our duffs and complain about what is happening a lot more than we do something about it. This is my opinion, and there are exceptions in my mind to this, but it seems that when we as a community are attacked by someone who dispises us, we remain silent or inactive.

We can help our communities, clean up our beaches, parks, streets. We can help the poor and sick, and even those who are neither. But I think that in order to do this, we must organize in some way shape or form. Together we stand, divided we fall.

Just my personal views.

Blessed Be!
Kaylara

[belladonna23]

I agree with Kaylara's point that in order to help others perceive pagans in a positive way, we should do things that make a visible difference in the world. A lot of religious organizations exist merely to lead others to "the true Path", i.e., their way of thinking. Most pagans I have met just want to make the world a better place to live in.

People will always be afraid of that which they don't understand. I sometimes find it hard not to get defensive when my personal beliefs are attacked, it's an area I am trying to work on every day. I need to remind myself sometimes that if someone attacks me, and I retaliate, I am only keeping the cycle going.

Since I don't think Kaylara was referring to the actual burning times in her post but using it as an analogy, I won't even go there, unless someone else wants to. It would be interesting, since I did a thesis on it in school, to see what others think about it.

[Kaylara]

Thank you Belladonna! That was exactly what I was trying to say!

Blessed Be!
Kaylara

[Semele]

Well, I personally did not experience the burning times...hee hee! It is a shame it happened, but there is so much in history that is a shame. Yet, in some ways necessary because we all learn from the past. Even if we get the message all wrong and have to be reminded of the original lesson learned. I think that we , humans as a whole, get so caught up in trying to teach these lessons that we set ourselves and everyone else up for the "poor oppressed me" syndrome. Virtually every ethnic group, race, religion, hair color.blah blah blah has been discriminated against in the past. It is our job to prevent it from happening again. No I don't mean be the watch dogs of the world, rather take a personal stand and see to it that we personally never participate in discrimination. Sure it would be a whole lot easier if everyone would watch their own actions and not worry about everyone else, but life is never that easy...or dull!

Yes, I am sure if we open our eyes and search around we will find someone somewhere that is discriminating aganst us all, but is it really that much of a threat to us? I mean the whole faith based funding thing everyone has been riled up about on all the pagan lists to which I subscribe is getting old. It doesn't make me happy to be left out, but then I wasn't planning on calling uncle Sam for a loan anyway. Until someone directly violates my rights I am going to mind my business and keep my own faith and continue to hope for a world where we can all be united someday. Maybe a bit starry eyed and it may never happen, but the best thing I can do is to try and raise my child without hatred and perhaps save the world from one more biggmouth bigot! Small things make a difference and I would rather focus my energy on that then waste a lot of energy and heartache trying to change the world. I can only change me and my views and so this is my goal.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. I know you are all concerned and just don't want things to get out of hand. I don't either, I just don't want to rush into a battle over hurt feelings and possibilities of discrimination.
Semele

[Kaylara]

I think that this started in my post from yesturday where I was talking about it being time to get off of our butts and do something about the problems we see. I felt that by organizing, we would get more done and be more effective than just doing our own thing. Purhaps we can come to a consensus about this. Who Knows?

Blessed Be!

Kaylara

[richardcranium]

Originally posted by Kaylara
I think that this started in my post from yesturday where I was talking about it being time to get off of our butts and do something about the problems we see. I felt that by organizing, we would get more done and be more effective than just doing our own thing. Purhaps we can come to a consensus about this. Who Knows?

Blessed Be!

Kaylara

What do you have in mind?

[Maggie]

Since I don't think Kaylara was referring to the actual burning times in her post but using it as an analogy, I won't even go there, unless someone else wants to. It would be interesting, since I did a thesis on it in school, to see what others think about it.





The actual history is a little different than the perceived history, is that what you meant? <G>

If it's allowed on the board, I can post a link to an article entitled "Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt". It's rather surprising..........

Maggie

[mol]

Go for it...

[Maggie]

Okaaaaaay,

Here's the URL:

http://www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html

I know of the author, Jenny Gibbons, from another service. She's a good scholar.

Maggie

[Kalima]

Thankyou for the link :)
I'm actually saving up a collection of anti- "Burning Times" hysteria sites, with a mind to write an essay/publish a website about it and the stupid attitudes some of the Pagan community seems to have towards it (to me).

If I see another one of those declarative little burning banners on a Pagan site, I'm quite likely to gag. :P

[mol]

http://www.amasterpiece.com/BurningTimes/Gallery/

Voila..

[Maggie]

Originally posted by mol
http://www.amasterpiece.com/BurningTimes/Gallery/

Voila..




You do like to stir the pot, don't you? <G>

There is no question that witch hunts occured, but I prefer the historical version. Anti-discrimination activities today don't require reference to past historical events to justify them; in any case we have enough reasons from this century alone without any need to reach further back.


Maggie

[mol]

Originally posted by Maggie





You do like to stir the pot, don't you? <G>

Cauldron stirrer extraordinairre...



There is no question that witch hunts occured, but I prefer the historical version. Anti-discrimination activities today don't require reference to past historical events to justify them; in any case we have enough reasons from this century alone without any need to reach further back.


Maggie

And I will step in and agree with this...there is bigotry and hatred still around toward Pagan's and the like...but it is not the Burning Times. I mean. I am sorry to what happened to those innocents at that time...but its not happening now.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by mol


Cauldron stirrer extraordinairre...



And I will step in and agree with this...there is bigotry and hatred still around toward Pagan's and the like...but it is not the Burning Times. I mean. I am sorry to what happened to those innocents at that time...but its not happening now.



Taking a few LONG steps back for the big picture......

Human beings posess an unfortunate habit of classifying each other as Like Me or Not Like Me. Those in the Not Like Me group generally get blamed whenever nasty things happen. I really don't think the Burning Times are reoccuring again, people are just being people, unfortunately. Too much identification with the past can interfere with finding solutions in the present.

Maggie

[Kalima]

Mol and maggie, you have absolutely stated my thoughts ... (as per, I didn't fully extrapolate them, so that others would understand) ;)

[Semele]

Originally posted by Kalima
Mol and maggie, you have absolutely stated my thoughts ... (as per, I didn't fully extrapolate them, so that others would understand) ;)

uh...big words make my head hurt after a long night of saving lives!!!
Semele

[Broken_Faerie]

I know this dosn't really have anything to do with this, but how you do you put a quote in here? I see you guys doing it on a bunch of the posts...Thanks

-Jessica

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Broken_Faerie
I know this dosn't really have anything to do with this, but how you do you put a quote in here? I see you guys doing it on a bunch of the posts...Thanks

-Jessica

Jessica, underneath my post you will see a "quote" icon. Click on that, as I just did yours, and you will see how it can be done...

...hope this helps.

~ew

[Kalima]

Hey Jess, fancy seeing you here! ;)

[Broken_Faerie]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


Jessica, underneath my post you will see a "quote" icon. Click on that, as I just did yours, and you will see how it can be done...

...hope this helps.

~ew

ah, thanks!!!!
and Hi =)

-jess