I've been noticing

[Convallaria]

I've been noticing that a lot of the time, I see direct reference to Christianity as bad and closed minded, and sometimes a lot of negativity toward Christianity here at MW. I realise that pagans are hassled the most by christians but it seems to me that we're developing a stigma against Christianity, almost as if we see them as the enemy.
I do understand that people are sharing their stories and rants about how they've been put down, but we're puting Christians down as well, and developing a stereo-type of the typical Christian.
Am I wrong here? Correct me, if so. It just makes me a little uncomfortable to see the indirect Christian bashing that I've been noticing.
Sorry if I offended anyone

[Mindflayer]

I have no problem with Christians


I have a problem with over-zealous, shove their religion down your throat, Bible-Thumpers...

[Calyx]

I've been noticing that a lot of the time, I see direct reference to Christianity as bad and closed minded, and sometimes a lot of negativity toward Christianity here at MW. I realise that pagans are hassled the most by christians but it seems to me that we're developing a stigma against Christianity, almost as if we see them as the enemy.
I do understand that people are sharing their stories and rants about how they've been put down, but we're puting Christians down as well, and developing a stereo-type of the typical Christian.
Am I wrong here? Correct me, if so. It just makes me a little uncomfortable to see the indirect Christian bashing that I've been noticing.
Sorry if I offended anyone

Hmmm, you raise up a point that seems to be popping up on a number of different threads here lately. I don't want to offend anyone either, but in the words of the infamous Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along??" :)

If we as Pagans ask for tolerance from others (if not understanding, 'cause that's probably too much to ask), then we should be willing to give it as well.

Just my 2 cents on this..... :colorful:

[Convallaria]

Hmmm, you raise up a point that seems to be popping up on a number of different threads here lately. I don't want to offend anyone either, but in the words of the infamous Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along??" :)

If we as Pagans ask for tolerance from others (if not understanding, 'cause that's probably too much to ask), then we should be willing to give it as well.

Just my 2 cents on this..... :colorful:
apreciated :)

[Flaire-FireStar]

I have no problem with Christians


I have a problem with over-zealous, shove their religion down your throat, Bible-Thumpers...

That's the way to put it.

I have no problem with x-tians who say they are, and leave it at that; who don't try to shove their religion at me.. I live with a bible-thumper, though, so maybe I'm a bit harder on them. (Though, I try not to get into Christianity vs Paganism debates, because I know my view, and sometimes I get carried away) ;)

[Laurelei]

I suppose it's a difficult situation, because many Christians would say that part of their religion is to shove it down 'those poor deluded non believers'. I think a lot of Christians feel their religion is oppressed because they say 'I love Jesus, don't you?' without getting wierd looks.

[Autumn Clair]

I've noticed it to but everyone has their opinion. I actually try to see good in every religion. They all connect in the end. But it does happen a lot. As long as my mind is open no one can change it but me choosing too.

Save journey to all no matter which religion you are..................

[Phoenix Blue]

I have a problem with over-zealous, shove their religion down your throat, Bible-Thumpers...
I have a problem with overzealous, shove their religion down your throat anyone, whether they're thumping Bibles or little symbols of Mjolnir.

I've seen a lot more of it than usual here lately as well. It's troubling, because--aside from the fact that bashing Christianity violates the rules of the forum--someone who's spending their time talking trash about someone else's religion clearly isn't spending their energy in further developing their own faith. . . which, as far as I'm concerned, makes them hypocrites.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I've been noticing that a lot of the time, I see direct reference to Christianity as bad and closed minded, and sometimes a lot of negativity toward Christianity here at MW. I realise that pagans are hassled the most by christians but it seems to me that we're developing a stigma against Christianity, almost as if we see them as the enemy.
There's a fair amount of that, yeah. I think the reason behind it is that many pagans started out as Christians, and left Christianity specifically because of a bad experience of some kind that soured their view of Christianity in general. And if these bad experiences happened when they were children, it's naturally that their youthful minds formed an opinion of Christians as the enemy.

Just a theory.

[Xentor]

I remember when I stopped with being an active christian. When I opened my eyes (see the negative connotation here) I wondered why everyone else didn't. This has watered down with the passage of time, but I can still be quite negatively towards other christians.

Thus I fully understand what other people are going through once they turn away from christianity. For me, it was a balance thing. First you need to antagonise their previous religion, in order to accept their new path better. After spending a while on your new path, you calm down and stop badgering your old path.

[Convallaria]

I guess since I didn't grow up christian, i dont have that background with the religion so its harder for me to understand the negativity.

[Ceallach]

Being married to a christian, my husband forced me to realize how hard I was on people who are christians. I began to notice each time I would make a face when he would watch certain programs, or hear certain comments. I am trying really hard to change that about myself, and its not an easy thing to do. I have to realize that to "harm none" means I shouldn't speak wrongly or think wrongly about people who believe differently than me. It harms not only the person (if I act on wrong thoughts), but it also fuels a bitterness within me, which isn't good either.

Maybe as the new year approaches, I can begin anew, with thoughts of tolerance and patience and an open mind.

[Equinox]

Hi-

It’s important for us to both respect people and to be honest about things we discuss. Having been a Christian, having read the whole Bible, and especially talking with Christians to learn Christian doctrine, I’ve had to face the fact that some of the Christian doctrine does appear to me to be harmful, including things explicitly spelled out in the Bible. For instance, the old testament goes on at great length to show that any other religion is not to be tolerated, and the new testament (especially the Pauline letters) explains that accepting Jesus as your only god is the only way to avoid Hell. The belief in an eternal Hell is one of the most widely agreed-upon beliefs among the Christian denominations, and it can lead to problems. Some parts of the old testament are problematic too. Heathen Dawn reads the OT in its original Hebrew, and I give his view a lot of weight when it comes to the old testament.

At the same time, it is possible to ignore the Bible and make a Christianity that is good, and follow that. This is what many Christians have done, and many Christians are wonderful people. All people, especially those we disagree with, deserve respect.

This respect has to be balanced with honesty, otherwise we don’t help protect people from harm. For instance, we speak out about problems we see, whether that is the Holocaust of WWII or the bashing of a religions path because it is “different”. So I may point out what the Bible says, or what Christian doctrine is (and why I think it can be harmful), but I hope I don’t attack an individual, whether he is Christian, a Satanist, or anything else.

Here at MW, and everywhere else, I think people should be tolerant of things that aren't harmful (such as worshipping as you like), while being intolerant when it is appropriate - such as if someone advocated killing infants. Being intolerant of things like hate is needed at times, otherwise we are partly responsible for those who are hurt by the hate we could have helped to stop.


-Equinox

[Calyx]

Very NICE post, Equinox!
Well said. I'd poke yer karma, but I am out! But tomorrow is a new day..... :colorful:

[Imbrium]

I think Equinox took the words right out of my mouth....

Plus I think there are some on this board like myself who have been Christian for a while where it did considerable harm. I was not raised Christian, but became one as a teen. I was absolute gung-ho for Jesus, but I ended up in a dead end train of thought because of the churches that I belonged to, which felt that there was no intellectual place for women. I was even taken to task for being interested in the chess club....only men were intellectuals there. I had this huge mental tug of war between feeling that God loved me, and feeling inadequate as a human being. I could go on and on.....There was even a point where my mother in law, (I was living with at the time) had convinced me through the church and Christianity to fork over my entire pay check every week because she was my "religious elder and a widow" I spent the better part of two years trying to disentangle myself without feeling like I had betrayed my faith.....

Now, I want to stress that this was not the Christian religion as a whole, but the sect of churches that I belonged to and their particular dogma. And to this day I have a hard time being neutral about it. I would also like to add that while I was trying to heal up from being in what I basically consider a Christian cult, I've begun coming across a lot of literature on how to control one's congregation. Here is one of the titles that I've run into:
· Block, Peter. "Flawless Consulting",pp 113-139. How to understand and deal with resistance.
Overcoming Resistance to Change NEW!

Author(s):

Charles Ridley

Steven Goodwin

Few obstacles present more of a challenge to church leaders than resistance to change. It stops progress in its tracks and prevents the implementation of new ideas in our congregations. Yet the more we try to fight that resistance, the stronger it seems to get. The Leadership Files series tackles the issue as it makes its debut with Overcoming Resistance to Change. This first of the Leadership Files takes an in-depth look at the issues surrounding this resistance – including the reasons change efforts often fail, an analysis of various types of resistance and their root causes, the qualities of effective change leaders, and strategies for overcoming resistance.

It's just one of many.
To round out my point, I don't think it's the religion, I think it's reaction to some of the church dogma.

[Noressa]

I actually know quite a few really, really good Christian people. The parts that I am skepticle about are those who profess being Christian people and upholding what Christ said, yet being very closed minded and judgemental to people who are different. The same goes for pretty much any faith, though. It's the all talk and no action bit. Or anyone who claims that their faith is the best one. It has been a personal choice for centuries, and should remain that way. Different environments breed different beliefs. The more complex a society, the more the faith system will evolve.

I think it helps that I believe that if someone has faith in something, then it is true, at least for them. Whether I have faith in it or not has no bearing as to whether or not I believe it is a valid faith. After all, how am I to know if a connection really does exist there between x person and the great purple pumpkin?

[DixieWitch]

I, like many here, don't cut down Christianity. I tend to focus on the individual Christians. I used to be a Christian and like others, got tired of the crap. I don't view Christianity, the religion itself, as a closeminded religion. I tend to single out the individual X-tians that make it a point to show how closeminded they are. This kind of person is exactly why my parents do not know my choice of religion. They are part of the closeminded aspect and without me saying a word, I bascially know that those not Christian are "Satan's children". Oh, and I also try to avoid the so called "Bible thumpers" and those that push religion. But that goes for any religion--I don't push mine on you, so please don't push yours on me. This is my opinion and not meant to offend anyone. And I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way. If so, I apologize in advance.

[*GrumpButt*]

I used to be Christian.
I do not agree with alot of thier beliefs and such, but I would never be little someone b/c of their religion..

[FaeFollower]

I have nothing against Christians, my whole family is/was Catholic or Lutheran at one point or another, and we're all a pretty nice bunch of people, if I do say so myself. ;) I try not to even get too upset with the people that tell me I'll be spending eternity in Hell; I just tell myself, "It's admirable that they are so firm in their beliefs that they want to share them with me." The 'Bible-thumpers' don't see what they're doing as harmful (the reverse, I believe), so I try not to either, even if I do think some of the things they're saying are a bit...you know...

[Marchosias]

I have no problem with x-tians who say they are, and leave it at that

I have a problem when people will mutilate names with Christ in them, but do no such thing to no other name. It is offensive.

[*GrumpButt*]

Are you talking about the x-tain thing?
that is not a mutalation, it is just an abrev.....
just that pewrsons way of saying.. :)

[Purrcatnip]

I'll admit, I have a grude against christians. I try to keep tolerance though, but honestly it is kinda hard to. I mean, dont get me wrong in person I would never look at someone as a christian or any religion, but if they came to me and talked about christianity, then of course I will show my opinion and views. Its something that is part of how I feel, I wont lie to someone just to seem peaceful, honestly I am still at battle inside with this. And for good personal reasons.
When I was younger in highschool, I had a bunch of girls beat up on me both physically and mentally over my religion, and after I went to a therapist for trying to kill myself, my therapist heard about the stories and went to my principal (which knew about the incidents) and my principal had the nerve to tell my therapist that I had been "rumored to worship the devil and the dark arts". He said that I maybe if I joined the local church, I wouldnt be osterisized so much..
Yes, we filed charges and my prinicpal was forced to resign that summer. To me this wasnt just one christian, this was a community of christianity.However,with those types of experiences, I can never really look at christianity with an unprejudiced eye i think I went off topic, but hoping it helps clear up, why some people with different religions tend to look at christians as the enemy. :colorful:

[FaeFollower]

I'll admit, I have a grude against christians. I try to keep tolerance though, but honestly it is kinda hard to. I mean, dont get me wrong in person I would never look at someone as a christian or any religion, but if they came to me and talked about christianity, then of course I will show my opinion and views. Its something that is part of how I feel, I wont lie to someone just to seem peaceful, honestly I am still at battle inside with this. And for good personal reasons.
When I was younger in highschool, I had a bunch of girls beat up on me both physically and mentally over my religion, and after I went to a therapist for trying to kill myself, my therapist heard about the stories and went to my principal (which knew about the incidents) and my principal had the nerve to tell my therapist that I had been "rumored to worship the devil and the dark arts". He said that I maybe if I joined the local church, I wouldnt be osterisized so much..
Yes, we filed charges and my prinicpal was forced to resign that summer. To me this wasnt just one christian, this was a community of christianity.However,with those types of experiences, I can never really look at christianity with an unprejudiced eye i think I went off topic, but hoping it helps clear up, why some people with different religions tend to look at christians as the enemy. :colorful:

That is horrible, and it's sad that some people could use religion as an excuse for doing/saying something like that. But it's so important not to let a few people destroy the reputation of Christianity as a whole for you, because its basic ideals really are honorable. I mean, some Peoples really are the embodiment of everything a Christian might consider to be 'evil', but most are terribly offended to be accused of being so, because most are really wonderful people. I have no idea if that made sense...

[DixieWitch]

I have just one question: When and how did Paganism and/or Wicca become associated with the worship of Satan?

[Marchosias]

Are you talking about the x-tain thing?
that is not a mutalation, it is just an abrev.....
just that pewrsons way of saying.. :)

Then why is it the ONLY religion I ever see being abbreviated here?

I see no:

Xcca

Xanism

Xganism

Xccans

...you get the idea. People spell out Judaism, and Hinduism, even big words such as pantheon.

So, you tell me.

Why are words with "Christ" the only words abbreviated in such a way?

[mol]

Why are words with "Christ" the only words abbreviated in such a way?
:hmmmmm:

[DixieWitch]

Prolly for the same reason it's shortened to X-mas....but I have no idea what the reason it.

[mol]

Doesnt it have reference back to Roman times?

[Marchosias]

Doesnt it have reference back to Roman times?

People only know [or use] that reference when trying to defend what they are doing.

"X-mas" is basically like "B-day" but I am still wary.

Find me a Christian who habitually refers to themselves as an "X-tian" and I will be surprised.

[DixieWitch]

I've actually seen "X-tian" on a shirt once, a while back.

[Re Silvaine]

Throughout the world, in every place, there will be people who believe that their way is the only way--it is not just Christians. And it can be disheartening, but you must realize that it is not about you: such folk are following their path in the best way they know how. You may not agree, but how foolish is argument in this instance?

Everywhere, I think, there are some of us who have chosen a difficult (read unpopular) way. Each human must make their own connection. It is neither good nor bad; simply different. Being "right" is not the way; hence religious argument concerning what is superior and why is not the way.

There is no recourse...walk in your own peace, on your path. Let criticism roll from you as a raindrop would. Keep your own soul and sight ahead, on the road you travel.
leaf

[Marchosias]

I've actually seen "X-tian" on a shirt once, a while back.

Fascinating. Somehow, I fail to see how that equates "X-tian" to be a respectable phrase.


I ASK AGAIN

Why do some people EXCLUSIVELY abbreviate anything with the word "Christ" in it? I have heard things about Roman references, and slight possibilities that it might not be offensive [which it is].

What I see going on is people are either too insecure to use the word "Christ", or they feel they can "get away" with more against Christianity, because Christians are so horrible and oppressive anyway.

I will not accept the cop-out of "an abbreviation", since NO OTHER religion is abbreviated here.

Maybe I am just missing something.

[DixieWitch]

I'm not saying it's respectable. I said that I saw it on a shirt in repsonse to the "have you seen a Christian call themself X-tian before" post. I'm not insecure abotu using the word Christ. I have nothign against Christianity or Christians. I have nothing against any religions. To each his or her own path.

[DixieWitch]

Heck, I'd liek to know where the "X" thing comes from myself.

[WtchyChick13]

Oh I'm in this now.


If we could step back from the jumping down people's throats for a moment about the whole 'x' thing...

Back in my "born again" days, (yes, I was) we learned that the 'x' came from the symbol of the Cross that Christ was crucified on. It was a way of writing it and it eventually became an abbreviation for CHRISTIANS to use for Christmas.

While many use the old (rediculuous in my eye) phrase of: "X-Mas takes the Christ out of Christmas" these folks do not realize what the 'x' stands for. :rolleyes:

Online, yes, we abbreviate x-tians and if you notice many who use it are in fact ex-Christians or even Christians themselves...we do have quite a few Christians here on MW you know.


So having said that, yes, I have trouble with the GENERAL Christian community. However, since 99% of my family is still Christian and most of my friends are, I know that there are still some good ones out there. :lol:

[DixieWitch]

Thanks for the "X" explanation. I myself am a former Christian. But it wasn't until I got online that I saw it refered to as X-tian, though I've always seen X-Mas.

[WtchyChick13]

No sweat! :p

As I said in another thread..."I live to serve." :lol:

:smooch:

[DixieWitch]

No sweat! :p

As I said in another thread..."I live to serve." :lol:

:smooch:
:hailmol:

[Old Witch]

I have no problem with Christians


I have a problem with over-zealous, shove their religion down your throat, Bible-Thumpers... Amen!!

[WtchyChick13]

:hailmol:


:eek:

That's the first time anyone has ever used that with me!!!!! :boing:



OW--I second that AMEN! :halohead:

[DixieWitch]

I third that Amen!!

[Marchosias]

Again, allow me to re-iterate my point.

Yes, I am aware that not ALL Christians have an issue with the "X".

However, the religion is CHRISTianity, not Xianity. Fact is, many Christians ARE offended by it. I am offended by it. It is disrespectful, when you spell/capitalize every OTHER religion properly, but not Christianity.

Perhaps we should all just be respectful enough to call a religion properly, and let Christians worry about the X themselves, rather than us adding to it?

[DixieWitch]

well said!

[WtchyChick13]

Again, allow me to re-iterate my point.

Yes, I am aware that not ALL Christians have an issue with the "X".

However, the religion is CHRISTianity, not Xianity. Fact is, many Christians ARE offended by it. I am offended by it. It is disrespectful, when you spell/capitalize every OTHER religion properly, but not Christianity.

Perhaps we should all just be respectful enough to call a religion properly, and let Christians worry about the X themselves, rather than us adding to it?


I understand what you are saying, but did you read my earlier post? It was the Christians who came up with it to begin with!

If you don't like it then don't use it. That's all I can say. Obviously no matter what we say here just won't make a difference to you. So why don't we just drop it.

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

Not to stir the pot, but I seem to remember a thread about all witches being wiccan, and the heat it stirred up. I am not wiccan, christian, or any other religion, but to deliberately annoy someone about their religion seems inflamatory. Christians have been refered to with the X for some time now, and when I do it, it is not intended as slanderous, just lazy. Some of the other religions are too tricky to abbreviate, so I don't. My final comment, Live the path you are on to the best of your ability and try to enjoy life.

[WtchyChick13]

Not to stir the pot, but I seem to remember a thread about all witches being wiccan, and the heat it stirred up. I am not wiccan, christian, or any other religion, but to deliberately annoy someone about their religion seems inflamatory. Christians have been refered to with the X for some time now, and when I do it, it is not intended as slanderous, just lazy. Some of the other religions are too tricky to abbreviate, so I don't. My final comment, Live the path you are on to the best of your ability and try to enjoy life.


VERY well said! :thumbsup:

Hawk, you posted something I wish I had earlier--when I use the 'x' I'm also not using it in a slanderous way as I'm sure many others here are not using it in that way either. It is an abbreviation.

I'm offended on a daily basis by other religions not taking the time to understand mine while they expect the rest of the world to understand theirs. How many times must I hear on the news that just because a pentacle was spray painted somewhere that means that it was the work of 'satan worshippers.'

I personally am tired having to be the one to tip-toe around the Christians while my own religion gets slandered.

Again, I was once a very, and rather devout Christian. I don't mean to offend by using the 'x', but rather have used it quite a bit for years and years ever since I was given the "ok" BY THE CHRISTIANS.

Anywhoo, I'm out of this now. Hawk made my point for me, I added onto it and I don't want to be this angry on Christmas Eve.

Besides the fact this wasn't even what this thread started out as.

[AuroraSilvermist]

I've met my share of wonderful Christians, and I have no problems with Christianity. I was burned by the heads of my church (figuratively, not literally! :lol: ) back when I considered myself Catholic, but I hold it against the individuals (and I'm getting over that particular grudge, sort of) and not the church itself.

Honestly, I've met people who are more in-your-face about their pagan spirituality than most Christians. You know the type--running around with pentacles on every body part that will support jewelry, saying "blessed be" all the time and making a point of using expressions like, "Oh my goddess!" and "Goddess bless you." (Personally, when I sneeze, I prefer a polite "bless you." Responding to a sneeze needn't become a religious statement.)

In ANY religion you're going to see intolerance. It's unfortunate, but it happens. Pagans aren't perfect--we're just people, like anyone else. That being said, in my own personal observations I've noticed that the pagan community AS A WHOLE seems more open-minded and tolerant. But in the final analysis, no spiritual path is idiot-proof.

[Koehnae]

I have no problem with Christians


I have a problem with over-zealous, shove their religion down your throat, Bible-Thumpers...

I have a problem with anyone... of any religion... who tries to force their beliefs on me. Belief is a very personal thing and we all need to come to it in our own way.

I think the reason Christianity is so often mentioned here is because it is a well-known religion that has a habit of "recruiting" new members in a variety of tactics. It gets a little frustrating turning away callers at your doorstep on a daily basis. I know I began to get pretty peeved when I lived furthur up north... next door to a Baptist church, down the road from a Baptist camp, and less than two miles from a Baptist college... along with 5 other churches of various denominations in a town of 300. I had visitors EVERY day trying to convert me to their respective religions. All I ever told them was that I respect your beliefs... please respect mine, but they kept coming back to convert the "heathen".

Oh well, I go on believing that someday we'll all just get along and respect each other for the choices we make... not judge each other on them.

[Marchosias]

Frankly, after having said what I have, I never expected what I got.

I honestly cannot argue with lazy...maybe in the morning. Good night everyone. :)

[Antoninus]

I've been noticing that a lot of the time, I see direct reference to Christianity as bad and closed minded, and sometimes a lot of negativity toward Christianity here at MW. I realise that pagans are hassled the most by christians but it seems to me that we're developing a stigma against Christianity, almost as if we see them as the enemy.
I do understand that people are sharing their stories and rants about how they've been put down, but we're puting Christians down as well, and developing a stereo-type of the typical Christian.
Am I wrong here? Correct me, if so. It just makes me a little uncomfortable to see the indirect Christian bashing that I've been noticing.
Sorry if I offended anyone

I personally dont trust most Christians. I dont hate them or fear them or have a grudge against them, I simply dont trust them because of bad experiences and past behavior. I DO know many Christians who are very nice and I trust them as friends, but if your Christian and you come up to me asking about my religion, be prepared for some defensive remarks. And its very very hard to tell whos a fundamentalist that will scream and charge at you with a cross and a bible when you tell them your not Christian. But I think that varries from area to area, around here, I keep my religion very very quiet because 9/10ths of the people out here are fundamentalists that WOULD charge at me with a cross and a bible, but in a bigger city, there are more people and more different types of people so people are more open to new things or ideas. So naturally, someone comming from a fundamentalist area like mine would be wary of Christians as a defense, someone comming from a city or a religiously open or diverse area, wouldnt be so defensive because they havent had many or any bad experiences.

[banondraig]

There's a fair amount of that, yeah. I think the reason behind it is that many pagans started out as Christians, and left Christianity specifically because of a bad experience of some kind that soured their view of Christianity in general. And if these bad experiences happened when they were children, it's naturally that their youthful minds formed an opinion of Christians as the enemy.

Just a theory.

that's what i was going to say. also, for every obnoxios, in-your-face bible thumper variety of christian, there are probably at least 5 or 10 who will either a) preach a little, but politely ( after all, their religion tells them you are going to hell. would you wish that on someone?) b) leave you alone or c) actually listen and accept. since people only feel a need to vent about the mean, aggressive, fire-and-brimstone kind, there is a bit of a lean toward "bashing". i'm going to post a thread about my experiences with nice, friendly christians, just as a counterbalance. it's important to get all the story.

[banondraig]

Why are words with "Christ" the only words abbreviated in such a way?

because the greek letter chi, which looks exactly like X, is the first letter, in greek, of "Christ". i haven't seen people refer to themselves as "xian" or "xtian". however, i have seen a lot of WWJD items, which is use of initials in one of the most widespread languages of today, english. in the time during which Jesus was alive, greek was one of the most widely spoken languages. it's a survival of an old tradition. the mithraic symbol, the chi-ro, was also adopted by the church because it depicts the first two letters of "Christ". this symbol, as far as i know, is still used by the catholic church today.

[Xeen]

I have noticed this also, but I wasn't about to be the first to point it out anywhere :)

[Equinox]

First about the xt thing-

Thanks, Banondraig for updating us on the greek chi-rho, which predates the compilation of the Bible.

For the main topic (Christianity), we need to define our terms. Is Christianity and Christian doctrine defined as:

1. The ideas laid out in the Bible?

2. The Official doctrine of the major Christian Churches, like Catholic, Protestant, etc?

Or 3. The personal beliefs of people who call themselves Christian?

If we pick #1, then I think that there are some harmful doctrines in the Bible, such as an eternal Hell, Jesus as the only god that is real, the intolerance of other religions, and the need to go out and convert others, among others. Christians who subscribe to these are following what they see as the “command of God”.

If we pick #2, then I think that there are many harmful doctrines in the official doctrines from the major denominations. Nearly all of them believe in an eternal Hell :smoke: , Jesus as the only god that is real, and all non-Christian are damned, and others add “women are subservient”, other harmful things. A few denominations have better doctrines (such as unity), but they are uncommon at best. Here are some additional parts of the majority Christian doctrine I see as harmful as well: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj7xexteffects.htm

If we pick #3, then there is a lot of variation. Many Christians are intolerant bible-thumpers, while many others are the wonderful, tolerant people that many of us know as friends, spouses, family, etc. I said “many”, but what does that mean?

Well, about 40% of Americans see the Bible as inerrant and infallible, and about 45 to 60 % believe in literal, Biblical, 6 day creationism (depending on the poll). If we use those as indicators for how many Christians are more fundamentalist vs. more moderate, we get around 100 million intolerant, fundamentalist Christians in the US, and about 80 million moderate, tolerant Christians. Of course, those indicators are a bit of an assumption, and people fall on a spectrum, not into absolute categories. The data from 1970 up to now has shown that the fundamentalist group is growing, while the tolerant group is shrinking.

So, when you meet a Christian, he or she could be anywhere on that spectrum. :colorful: Because all people deserve respect, I would treat individual Christians as if they were moderate until you find out other wise (and then still treat them with respect, but also protect yourself). At the same time, be aware that hundreds of things like the terrible events Purrcatnip described happen every year, so we should be cautious, but kind.

I applaud anyone who read through that long post!!

Have a fun day-

-Equinox

If anyone wants more details, I’ve watched these numbers for years from sources such as www.gallup.com, www.adherents.com, and www.religioustolerance.com. Don’t take my word for it - feel free to check the numbers out yourself.

[DixieWitch]

To tell you the truth, if I were a Christian, I'd be more peeved by the "bible-thumper" remark then being refered to as an X-tian!! If you want to talk about being disrespective, to me , bible-thumper outranks X-tian!! But that's my personal opinion. Again, not tryin to ruffle feathers or offend anyone or start something. Just wanting to point something out. Oh, and thanks for the explanation of how the "X" came about. I never really knew, even as a Christian, where that came from.

[DarkSidhe]

Does this mean that I can't refer to Jesus and the Apostles as the X-men?

I went to a Lutheran Grade School, Lutheran High School, and Lutheran College.
I studied to become a minister, Missouri Synod. Then I studied other religions. Then I went back, to find the truth about the christian religion. I was lied to. I was conned. I found out. I am now Wittan.

When I was a christian, was I offended by the x-tian thing? About as much as I was if someone said "God Dammit!" or "Jesus Christ!" as a curse. (I used to reply "Judas Priest!")

Christianity is a religion based on the belief that if you are not christian, you are going to go to Hell. This is ingrained into the structure of the church itself. "Go therefore, and convert all nations." This lead to the destruction of many other religions, and to the persecution of millions of individuals. Christians turned pagan gods and goddeses into saints, and the rest into demons. Satan went from the serpent, to a spirit, to the Horned God. Any desperate measures were used to the fullest in support of converting the heathens.

The Crusades. The Inquisition. The Salem Witch Trials.

Pagans do not pick on Bhuddists, because Bhuddists have never picked on pagans.
Bhuddists don't care if you're pagan. Bhuddists don't need to convert pagans.
Bhuddists didn't torture and kill pagans in the name of the Bhudda.

It's been about 15 years since I've been x-tian. But the grudge I bear has been around longer than that. I have nothing against individual religions, but against organized religions. I have nothing against x-tians; but against the christian church and it's dogma, I have many problems.

Christianity as a spiritual path for an individual is a path full of love and giving. Dogma has turned it into a path of hatred, jealousy, and global bloodshed. GW turned it into a means of instigating war against the heathen Muslims. The United States is all about "Freedom of Religion Especially if You Are Christian" (In God We Trust, One nation under God, God Bless America, etc.)

Whether you'd like to admit it or not. It is us vs. them, in the general sense. Not in the individual sense. But it is there. I still have Jehova's Witnesses knocking on my door from time to time. The Catholic church still insists that you're going to go to Hell if you do not believe the same way they do, and that even includes Protestants...

The enmity between christians and pagans will never fade. The christian church will not allow it. The christian church's sole purpose of existance is to convert all nations into being christian!! Being nice, and not bashing x-tians, is great for your karma, but it won't stop it. Ignoring it won't make them go away...

I have family and friends that are x-tian. I have nothing against them or anyone else wanting to call me a Pgan. :)

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

against x-tians; but against the christian church and it's dogma, I have many problems.

Christianity as a spiritual path for an individual is a path full of love and giving. Dogma has turned it into a path of hatred, jealousy, and global bloodshed. GW turned it into a means of instigating war against the heathen Muslims. The United States is all about "Freedom of Religion Especially if You Are Christian" (In God We Trust, One nation under God, God Bless America, etc.)

:)
Ever read the Old Testament? Talk about bloodbaths!

[Cyberhawk]

Does this mean that I can't refer to Jesus and the Apostles as the X-men?


lol :lol:

[DragonMare]

I understand the animosity completely. as I used to be a Christian or rather was raised a Christian and they were so much against pegans in my church. and I recently told my mother that I am studdying Peganism. the response that I got was "So you're a devil worshiper now?" so I feel that A lot of the Animosity towards our faith is due to people's Nievity and not taking the time to understand what we are all about. but anyways that's just human nature, we fear what we do not understand.

Just my thoughts. I have a respect for all religions and I do not put any of them down but i do know where I belong and it is here with you all. anyways. I'm off to have my christmas dinner here at my rehab. hope you all have had and continue to have a blessed yule and christmas and/or whatever holliday you might cellebrate.


Blessed Be,

Dragonmare

Wherefore have I been plagued with lofty dreams
that are so oft' beyond this mortal's reach?
They never will be true it sometimes seems
and sorrow threatens, this heart's walls, to breach
It felt at times a foolish child's desire
to feel the rush of wind beneath my wings,
to challenge the Sun's fervour with my fire
and with draconic voice make anthems ring
Is it too much to hope that someday I
through some means as yet unbeknownst may soar
perchance to join those rulers of the sky
and live with them as family evermore?
I grow e'er certain that there is a way
and I will seach for't past my dying day...

[ajna]

I don't hate Christians, in fact I like debating with the more open-minded ones. However, I am afraid of them. I would rather cut off my hand, among other appendages, than to go somewhere I know I will be hurt at (ie: into a group of Christians). If they aren't already talking about it then they might be ok, but if almost every word out of the person's mouth is Jesus or Christ or God, and not in a swearing manner, then I will tend to shy away in paralyzing fear.
One of my close friends is a Christian and she understands that witnessing is wasted on me and many of the people she associates with. She is one of the few that believe that Christians witness best by example rather than propoganda. I appreciate that and respect it.

[Convallaria]

I was thinking today, about this thread... and for a moment I found myself truely saddened that Christianity exists... I felt saddened that nature wasnt embraced more by the majority of the citizens of this world, and that open mindedness and acceptance arent at the top of everyones list of ways of life. And then I realised that it isnt just Christians that make up the world of war and prejudice. We all contribute... and I think my goal in life is to rid myself entirely of the awful thought patterns I fall into on occasion. Maybe that should be my new years resolution. Just corny ol' love.

[AmbivalentMirage]

I have nothing against Christians... usually. :)

As for the "x" thing... I don't know. I'm not particularly concerned. I will refer to myself as a "jwitch" if it will make you feel better. How about "jwish"? :rolleyes:

I too was Christian and have many fond memories of those days, but it is not the person who I am now. *shrugs* Whatever, life moves on.

Calm down about the "x" stuff, though. I mean... sheesh. Lots of things offend me but I live with it. Welcome to the world.

[Convallaria]

Welcome to the world.
HERE, HERE!
*raises a glass*

[Lucius]

I've been noticing that a lot of the time, I see direct reference to Christianity as bad and closed minded, and sometimes a lot of negativity toward Christianity here at MW. I realise that pagans are hassled the most by christians but it seems to me that we're developing a stigma against Christianity, almost as if we see them as the enemy.
I do understand that people are sharing their stories and rants about how they've been put down, but we're puting Christians down as well, and developing a stereo-type of the typical Christian.
Am I wrong here? Correct me, if so. It just makes me a little uncomfortable to see the indirect Christian bashing that I've been noticing.
Sorry if I offended anyone
I've noticed this too. I don't have a problem with Christians, except when they try to shove it down your throat and act ignorant. You are right though...a lot of people seem to be hypocritical.