CR vs Druidry

[LittleRhiannon]

Are Celtic Reconstruction and Druidry the same thing, or just similar? Or is Celtic Recon a type of druidry, or vice versa?

[mothwench]

well, the only difference i can possibly see is that druidism is the reconstruction of celtic clergy whereas cr is the reconstruction of the beliefs of the common ppl. just my two cents, i would love to hear some opinions by some people who are more experienced in the druidic path.
off topic: i came across a site i posted a link to here before... it's called what do we really know about celtic religion? i'm gonna put it in the website analysis, just thought you might be interested. :)

[Myrddyn Emrys]

well, the only difference i can possibly see is that druidism is the reconstruction of celtic clergy whereas cr is the reconstruction of the beliefs of the common ppl.
That sums it up pretty well.

Something I always tell my students;

"All Druids were Celts, but not all Celts were Druids."

[John T. Folden]

Are Celtic Reconstruction and Druidry the same thing, or just similar? Or is Celtic Recon a type of druidry, or vice versa?

Not necessarily any of the above... I'd say that for the most part they both often share the same mythologies, core texts, deities, etc... but where CR attempts to stick strictly to pre-christian Celtic practices ( or seemingly compatible alternatives to fill in the gaps ) modern Druidry tends to go off in a different, more universal or modern direction with them.

So, it all depends on which Druid groups you look at... Keltria seems to be focused specifically on Irish beliefs and may be the most compatible with CR, ADF is more inclusive with it's pan-indo-european POV, and OBOD is flexible enough to be used as a Celtic based religion alone or simply as a philosophy alongside your existing religion. I know more than one CR that is, also, a member of OBOD.

Of course, the bottom line is that all the currently existing "Groups" are entirely modern (Though OBOD does have ties back into the 1700's) and none of them are more "authentic" or valid than the other. It's just a matter of which path appeals to you more.

[skilly-nilly]

Of course, the bottom line is that all the currently existing "Groups" are entirely modern

I'm there with this opinion.

Everything that people define as 'Druidry' is a modern construct. So if someone identifies as a 'Druid' they are defining themselves in a modern context--they are a member of the previously mentioned groups or they have decided to self-identify that way but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the priestly class of the pre-Xian religion.

Celtic ReConstructionism is both religious and anthropological. The people who follow that path (I am one) spend a lot of time reading preserved texts and folklore, and investigating the anthropological and historical record in the area of their interest. Mostly, reconstructionists aren't 'Celtic'-- they are interested in a specific culture (Irish in my case) . 'Celtic' just is an inclusive definition, as in 'all those Irish, Scottish, Manx, etc ReConstructionists are a group of Celtic Reconstructionists'.

Not to say that Re-Cons don't have personal religious experiences. We do, but we define them as only our own possessions and not as truth-defining for other practitioners.

So, from a Re-Con pov, a Druid is someone who went to a Druid College to finish up the 20+ years of schooling and is acknowledged by the Senior Druids and hir community as a knowledgeable practitioner. Who can recite the lore from memory as well as create new poetry on the spot, play several instruments, know Brehon law......

In other words, from a Re-Con pov there aren't any Druids at present.

I am a member of an ADF Grove and am happy to be so but when I'm explaining who I am to someone who doesn't know me I say, "I am a member of ADF" and not "I am a Druid".

[Seren_]

Not to say that Re-Cons don't have personal religious experiences. We do, but we define them as only our own possessions and not as truth-defining for other practitioners.

So, from a Re-Con pov, a Druid is someone who went to a Druid College to finish up the 20+ years of schooling and is acknowledged by the Senior Druids and hir community as a knowledgeable practitioner. Who can recite the lore from memory as well as create new poetry on the spot, play several instruments, know Brehon law......

In other words, from a Re-Con pov there aren't any Druids at present.

I am a member of an ADF Grove and am happy to be so but when I'm explaining who I am to someone who doesn't know me I say, "I am a member of ADF" and not "I am a Druid".


Whilst I agree with what you've said, skilly, there are some recons who self-identify as being druids. Erynn Rowan Laurie says she considers herself to be a druid in her new ogam book, because she serves as clergy to others.

[Tadrith]

You can get away with many claims nowadays, but that still does not make it true. I'm with Skilly in that no Druids exist today, but there are many neo-druids.

[John T. Folden]

I'm there with this opinion.

Everything that people define as 'Druidry' is a modern construct. So if someone identifies as a 'Druid' they are defining themselves in a modern context--they are a member of the previously mentioned groups or they have decided to self-identify that way but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the priestly class of the pre-Xian religion.

Perhaps I should clarify... Druid AND CR Groups alike are entirely modern. I know a select few CR's who like to automatically equate 'authenticity' with 'validity' but the reality is they're pretty much in the same boat as everyone else. This is not said to denigrate anyone on either path, it's just the way it is.


In other words, from a Re-Con pov there aren't any Druids at present.

The only problem with this statement is that many CR's do identify as 'Druid". CR's are as individualistic and varied as Druids are...

[John T. Folden]

You can get away with many claims nowadays, but that still does not make it true. I'm with Skilly in that no Druids exist today, but there are many neo-druids.

Plenty of Druids exist today... obviously, no ancient Druids exist (as their culture and the native believers of the pre-Christian faiths all died out hundreds of years ago).

[Tadrith]

Neo-druids exist, Druids do not.

From an archaeological and anthropological view point, celtic reconstructionists have greater support for their recreated beliefs than druidry does.CR is obviously new, otherwise it would not be called reconstructionism, and there are, of course, gaps that are filled with conjecture. It should be noted that there seems to be less invented (or revisionist) material in CR than in druidry.

[John T. Folden]

Neo-druids exist, Druids do not.

"Druidry" and "Druidism" is, obviously, new as well but "Druid" is the label being used by most of the adherents.

I realize proponents of CR may gain some satisfaction from explicitly spelling out the difference at every turn but a) CR's aren't in a position of authority to in/validate other spiritual practices in any way, b) I think most of it's serious followers are fully aware that the word is being used differently during the last couple hundred years, and c) I don't know of any of the legitimate Druid groups who claim to be anything other than what they are. OBOD, for example, seems to be pretty transparent about what bits are based on ancient Celtic practices and what bits are created or pulled from elsewhere.

Perhaps your experience has been different but I haven't meant any Druids who think they are filling the exact same roles as ancient Druids.



From an archaeological and anthropological view point, celtic reconstructionists have greater support for their recreated beliefs than druidry does.CR is obviously new, otherwise it would not be called reconstructionism, and there are, of course, gaps that are filled with conjecture. It should be noted that there seems to be less invented (or revisionist) material in CR than in druidry.

This is to be expected, CR's by the very nature of the faith require a great deal of authenticity for validation of their beliefs. While modern Druid groups don't, generally, look for the same type of validation even though many of them do use the same research at their core.

[Fiamma]

I am a member of an ADF Grove and am happy to be so but when I'm explaining who I am to someone who doesn't know me I say, "I am a member of ADF" and not "I am a Druid".


I usually refer to ADF as pan-indo-european neo-druidry :-)

I don't usually refer to myself as a Druid, but if I do, I'm very clear about the context and flavor.

[Fiamma]

Others, such as ADF, believe Druidry to be a polytheistic religion with structure and dogma, while even some believe that Druidry is an exclusively Celtic paganism.


I wouldn't exactly say that ADF has a dogma....there is a structure to the organization, and what is considered ADF or not, but I don't consider
defining organizational parameters to be dogma.

Actually, the organization's only officially stated dogma is the Doctrine of Archdruidic Fallibility- no one, including the archdruid is infallible.

[odubhain]

I'd say that CR and Druidry *should* be the same things. That they aren't is because so many have usurped the name of "Druid" for whatever neo-new-age philosophy they want with little regard for tradition. There are some Druid groups nowadays that are also CR so all is not lost. Please note that I said there are Druid groups today. It *is* possible to be a Druid today just as validly as it was possible to be a Druid 2,000 years ago (maybe more so).

Searles

[Fiamma]

I'd say that CR and Druidry *should* be the same things. That they aren't is because so many have usurped the name of "Druid" for whatever neo-new-age philosophy they want with little regard for tradition. There are some Druid groups nowadays that are also CR so all is not lost. Please note that I said there are Druid groups today. It *is* possible to be a Druid today just as validly as it was possible to be a Druid 2,000 years ago (maybe more so).

Searles


Not sure that I grok the logic here.

That one can be both Druid and CR, yes. But one can be CR without being Druid, also yes. Not all of the Celts were Druids, so why would all CR's be Druids? It's like saying that all Catholics are (or should be) priests/nuns.

[Fiamma]

I don't think that's what he's saying. The Druids were Celts and would have had been adherents to a Celtic paganism. As CRs atempt to reconstruct these ancient beliefs in a modern and accurate context, a Druid would be a CR but a CR would not necassarily be a Druid. Am I close, Searles?



I'd say that CR and Druidry *should* be the same things.

Unless he meant to say that he thinks that Druidry should be a form of CR, I can't think of any way to interpret the above statement which seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[Fiamma]

Even still, ADF doesn't really have that. Sure, there are many common beliefs, but there isn't really a generally held set within the organization. Like I said, there are organizational parameters but I can't think of anything that would fit into your definition of dogma.


I'm using dogma defined as "a generally held set of forumulated beliefs".

[John T. Folden]

I'd say that CR and Druidry *should* be the same things. That they aren't is because so many have usurped the name of "Druid" for whatever neo-new-age philosophy they want with little regard for tradition. There are some Druid groups nowadays that are also CR so all is not lost. Please note that I said there are Druid groups today. It *is* possible to be a Druid today just as validly as it was possible to be a Druid 2,000 years ago (maybe more so).

Searles

I'm wondering if you might give examples of your opinion on 'good' Druid organizations vs those that are 'not-so-good'?

[Tadrith]

It *is* possible to be a Druid today just as validly as it was possible to be a Druid 2,000 years ago (maybe more so).

I'm terribly sorry Searles, but I am still extremely unconvinced of your claims. If you cannot complete all the requirements of a Druid flawlessly, and are then appointed such a title by an individual who has followed the same steps, you cannot call yourself a Druid. Even if you take an actual Druid from the bronze age and put him into our own time, he would not be a Druid because the social context does not need/permit it. The only substitute is neo-druidry. If you are not from the bronze age or other applicable times, then you are a neo-druid. There is nothing wrong with neo-druidry, as others have mentioned, they know that most of their faith has been reinvented (although some have taken a path similar to CR, where they use acknowledged evidence to recreate their faith. Nonetheless, some of it is still invented and it is far from being completely intact).

This reminds me of recreated swordsmanship. We have the manuscripts from Fiore Dei Liberi (and others), and we can follow their movements and patterns, but anything beyond that is entirely conjecture. Actual combats are inventions, transitional movements from pose to pose are recreated. No one will ever fight a duel with sharpened blades, and consequently no one will ever know how it was actually done.

It is all my opinion of course, but I know others who are more knowledgeable that reflect my opinion.

[LadyWinter]

I'd say that CR and Druidry *should* be the same things. That they aren't is because so many have usurped the name of "Druid" for whatever neo-new-age philosophy they want with little regard for tradition. There are some Druid groups nowadays that are also CR so all is not lost. Please note that I said there are Druid groups today. It *is* possible to be a Druid today just as validly as it was possible to be a Druid 2,000 years ago (maybe more so).

Searles

I agree with this entirely.:cheers:

Winter

[John T. Folden]

I'm terribly sorry Searles, but I am still extremely unconvinced of your claims. If you cannot complete all the requirements of a Druid flawlessly, and are then appointed such a title by an individual who has followed the same steps, you cannot call yourself a Druid. Even if you take an actual Druid from the bronze age and put him into our own time, he would not be a Druid because the social context does not need/permit it. The only substitute is neo-druidry. If you are not from the bronze age or other applicable times, then you are a neo-druid. There is nothing wrong with neo-druidry, as others have mentioned, they know that most of their faith has been reinvented (although some have taken a path similar to CR, where they use acknowledged evidence to recreate their faith. Nonetheless, some of it is still invented and it is far from being completely intact).

I partially agree with what you are saying. Perhaps we are looking at the same landscape from different hilltops.

The reality is that even if we knew every little aspect of the Pre-Christian Celtic belief systems and could recreate them whole-cloth today it would be an anachronism. The culture and society does not exist today to support it - this goes for CR and Druid groups alike equally. That's why everyone has to modify, substitue, etc...

However, where I disagree, is in the use of the term Druid. It seems disconnected with reality to claim that someone can not call themselves a Druid today. There have been modern "Druidic" orders of one sort or another for hundreds of years now. You can say that modern Druids aren't bronze age Druids but that's beating a dead horse because it's sort of a foregone conclusion, isn't it? No one alive today has any rights to say who can or can not use the label. It wasn't usurped because the original, officially known Druids were long dead by the time the title came back into use. Indeed, if you mention the word "Druid" to the average person today then it is the image of Druids as created in the 18th century and later that most people immediately think of... long white robes, bearded men, etc...

[odubhain]

I'm terribly sorry Searles, but I am still extremely unconvinced of your claims.

That's OK. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. I was just stating how it is.

If you cannot complete all the requirements of a Druid flawlessly, and are then appointed such a title by an individual who has followed the same steps, you cannot call yourself a Druid. Even if you take an actual Druid from the bronze age and put him into our own time, he would not be a Druid because the social context does not need/permit it. You're very wrong.
The only substitute is neo-druidry. If you are not from the bronze age or other applicable times, then you are a neo-druid. If you are a Druid, it makes no difference when you are a Druid.
There is nothing wrong with neo-druidry, as others have mentioned, they know that most of their faith has been reinvented (although some have taken a path similar to CR, where they use acknowledged evidence to recreate their faith. Nonetheless, some of it is still invented and it is far from being completely intact).That's because it is neoDruidry and not Druidry. That can be a huge difference or little difference depending on what one has studied, what one has done and what one does


This reminds me of recreated swordsmanship. We have the manuscripts from Fiore Dei Liberi (and others), and we can follow their movements and patterns, but anything beyond that is entirely conjecture. Actual combats are inventions, transitional movements from pose to pose are recreated. No one will ever fight a duel with sharpened blades, and consequently no one will ever know how it was actually done.A sword is an item that is usually used to defend and atack against another sword. In this use it hasn't changed much in ages or across cultures.


It is all my opinion of course, but I know others who are more knowledgeable that reflect my opinion.Your opinion is of course unique to your self. Is it based on a practice of Druidry or neoDruidry? If it is not, then I don't think it can be very well informed, the opinions of others not withstanding.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

I'm wondering if you might give examples of your opinion on 'good' Druid organizations vs those that are 'not-so-good'?

The Henge of Keltria is a good Druid organization. Other organizations seem to be good ones though I can only speak with first hand knowledge about Keltria and ADF (which is another good Druid organization). Those that I've studied that seem to be on the right track are BDO, AOD, OBOD to name three. They each have aspects of their practice that I don't follow but as time passes, they seem to be improving. Bad Druid organizations are those that base their practices on a whim or a fantasy. Take your pick of those. There are many. Just because I have not named every good or bad organization does not mean they are good or bad.

Searles

[odubhain]

Not sure that I grok the logic here.

That one can be both Druid and CR, yes. But one can be CR without being Druid, also yes. Not all of the Celts were Druids, so why would all CR's be Druids? It's like saying that all Catholics are (or should be) priests/nuns.You're right. Druids should be CR but not ever CR should or would be a Druid. For me the important thing was that Druids should be CR since that is my personal perspective and approach.

Searles

[John T. Folden]

The Henge of Keltria is a good Druid organization. Other organizations seem to be good ones though I can only speak with first hand knowledge about Keltria and ADF (which is another good Druid organization). Those that I've studied that seem to be on the right track are BDO, AOD, OBOD to name three. They each have aspects of their practice that I don't follow but as time passes, they seem to be improving. Bad Druid organizations are those that base their practices on a whim or a fantasy. Take your pick of those. There are many. Just because I have not named every good or bad organization does not mean they are good or bad.

Searles

Much thanks for the reply... I only have experience with ADF, Keltria and OBOD and have found something to like about each. OBOD has improved a great deal post-2001 or so, I think, as before then I wasn't especially impressed with their offerings. Luckily, I seem to be unaware of the bad ones.

[Faol-chù]

Tadtrith said:


Even if you take an actual Druid from the bronze age and put him into our own time, he would not be a Druid because the social context does not need/permit it.

You're very wrong.

You know, I have to say a couple of things relating to this...

Firstly, historical druids were much much more than just 'priests'. They were political leaders, judges, and filled a whole host of other roles than any modern 'druid' ever thought about filling. They PROBABLY had more power than most modern people would even begin to be happy about.

Also, the druids officiated over Celtic language speakers..in a very big way, much unlike any so-called druid could EVER do today, unless, of course, they happened to suddenly convince the whole of native Celtic language speakers that they 'need' them....
And from what I've seen, that is NOT happening. Native speakers reject the idea of supporting anyone with that kind of power who attempts to 'lord' over them. They are quite happy with their native bards...thank you very much...

Le meas,

[odubhain]

Tadtrith said:



You know, I have to say a couple of things relating to this...

Firstly, historical druids were much much more than just 'priests'. They were political leaders, judges, and filled a whole host of other roles than any modern 'druid' ever thought about filling. They PROBABLY had more power than most modern people would even begin to be happy about.

Also, the druids officiated over Celtic language speakers..in a very big way, much unlike any so-called druid could EVER do today, unless, of course, they happened to suddenly convince the whole of native Celtic language speakers that they 'need' them....
And from what I've seen, that is NOT happening. Native speakers reject the idea of supporting anyone with that kind of power who attempts to 'lord' over them. They are quite happy with their native bards...thank you very much...

Le meas,I'd be interested in seeing some information where the Druids were said to have "lorded" power over the people (aside from the class structure inherent in the society of the time). It's always been my impression that the Druids were *respected* and that any authority they had was acknowledged to them because they *knew* things or that they could actually do things *well*.

If anyone is to be a Druid today then they should *know* their information well and be respected for it or they should have one of the traditional skills to the level of acknowledged mastery. One is not appointed a Druid, a scholar, a master craftsperson, an expert until one actually does the work and demonstrates the skills. That's how it was then and that is how it is now.

The excellence of word, the mastery of skill, the perfection of discipline is what makes a Druid; that and holding to the truth; honoring the gods and respecting those who do the right things. That's what Druids taught and did in the past. That's what Druids should do now and in the future.

Searles O'Dubhain

[David19]

You know, I have to say a couple of things relating to this...

Firstly, historical druids were much much more than just 'priests'. They were political leaders, judges, and filled a whole host of other roles than any modern 'druid' ever thought about filling. They PROBABLY had more power than most modern people would even begin to be happy about.

Also, the druids officiated over Celtic language speakers..in a very big way, much unlike any so-called druid could EVER do today, unless, of course, they happened to suddenly convince the whole of native Celtic language speakers that they 'need' them....
And from what I've seen, that is NOT happening. Native speakers reject the idea of supporting anyone with that kind of power who attempts to 'lord' over them. They are quite happy with their native bards...thank you very much...

I've heard that Druids were one of the most powerful ruling classes in Celtic countries, so if you want to be historical, then I guess there aren't any Druids in the modern world (I've read that in Celtic cultures, during a war or battle, a Druid could step in between the 2 sides and stop it, I'd love to see a modern Druid go to Iraq and try stoping the fighting).

I'm not a Celtic recon or a Druid, but I don't think anyone be 100% historically accurate when they are reviving a religion, what you can do is take what you do know about the religion and bring it into the modern world, adapting it where neccessary (for example, I know some Aztec recons who for obvious reasons can't perform full on human sacrifice so they make adaptions for the modern world, and still being accurate where possible).

[odubhain]

David 19 said: ...a Druid could step in between the 2 sides and stop it, I'd love to see a modern Druid go to Iraq and try stoping the fighting).
I think a better analogy would be whether two (name one: Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, ...) factions would stop fighting if one of their holy people walked between them. Would a bulldozer stop for a protester between them and Tara? It depends on the honor inherent to life and respect within a society. It has nothing to do with rank and control. Of course, in Celtic society, it also had to do with "honor price" (how much one was universally expected to owe to a person or their family for commiting an act of harm to them).

Searles

[John T. Folden]

Firstly, historical druids were much much more than just 'priests'. They were political leaders, judges, and filled a whole host of other roles than any modern 'druid' ever thought about filling. They PROBABLY had more power than most modern people would even begin to be happy about.

...and, if you wish to make that comparison, today there are judges, lawyers, doctors and other professionals that are, also, Druids. They spend many long years in school for their chosen profession and then search for spiritual training through ADF or OBOD, etc. These are spiritual, learned people holding positions of respect or authority.



Also, the druids officiated over Celtic language speakers..in a very big way, much unlike any so-called druid could EVER do today, unless, of course, they happened to suddenly convince the whole of native Celtic language speakers that they 'need' them....


This all pre-supposes that someone should want to reconstruct culture, society, and Druidry exactly as it was 2k years ago. Nothing else stands frozen in time, virtually everything evolves and changes or is reborn in one form or another.

[odubhain]

Exactly, and trying to do so would defeat the purpose of CR which is a modern reconstruction.One must know what the society was like in ancient times. medieval times. early modern and modern times to have a chance of understanding it even a little bit. To not look at all of this information is to bring an element of fluff to any attempts at reconstructing or even to structuring and understanding.

I don't know of anyone that is doing CR or Draíocht that is attempting to roll back the clock. It is my experience and understanding that all are attempting to put together a present as it would have been had the tenets of Druidism or Celtic society had not been disrupted by oppression from foreign enemies and ecclesiastical rivals. If someone is attempting to define or redefine Druidism or CR without first understanding the roots then they will wind up with a very artificial paper mache tree.

In short, Druids of today have to be CR in order to establish a baseline for being a Druid today. That baseline is the take that a fully acclimated Druid of ancient times would have embraced once the new truths and knowledge were completely assimilated by her. How can anyone follow the Druid way without knowing the signs that mark it and embracing the philosophies that define it?

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

Absolutely! My point was that we (reconstructionist) are not attempting to "roll back the clock" as you said.

That's great to know. Some that I've had this discussion with think there's no point at all in studying traditions or history. They just want to invent the "anything goes" version of CR or Draíocht. Others seem to think that one should ignore 3,000 years of history and tradition because along the way some of it got lost and some mor eof it was changed to suit the whims of the rulers, while a part of it actually survived as it was or evolved might be a better way of expressing it.

I suspect the people who want to ignore the traditions are the kind of folks that either don't want to embrace a tradition or are just to lazy to do the work of studying it and in some cases reconstructing it from the remnants.

Searles

[The Pictish Druid]

Not necessarily any of the above... I'd say that for the most part they both often share the same mythologies, core texts, deities, etc... but where CR attempts to stick strictly to pre-christian Celtic practices ( or seemingly compatible alternatives to fill in the gaps ) modern Druidry tends to go off in a different, more universal or modern direction with them.

What exactly is 'CR'?



So, it all depends on which Druid groups you look at... Keltria seems to be focused specifically on Irish beliefs and may be the most compatible with CR, ADF is more inclusive with it's pan-indo-european POV, and OBOD is flexible enough to be used as a Celtic based religion alone or simply as a philosophy alongside your existing religion. I know more than one CR that is, also, a member of OBOD.

Of course, the bottom line is that all the currently existing "Groups" are entirely modern (Though OBOD does have ties back into the 1700's) and none of them are more "authentic" or valid than the other. It's just a matter of which path appeals to you more.

IMO druidry is essentially a shamistic tradition of north western Europe. According to the Romans its central point was in the British Isles. If this was true then I doubt if it was exclusively Celtic or Indo-European, but something which had a pre-Celtic origin.

[blackroseivy]

I'm inclined to agree with you - but as I always feel out of my depth in these discussions, I'm not going to go further than that!! :p

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I personally agree with you , Pictish Druid...

There was an Oral Tradition of Druidry ,
older than Celtic...more like Shamanism ,
just as Bon Po , was older than later tradition
in Eastern tradition...

The Picts had their Druids...pre - history...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

You are welcome to come visit me , Tomas...

And if you have twelve to twenty years ,
you can study our ancient code...then , you
shall have your evidence...

And that is said with respect...

I think what you are doing , is honorable...:hahugh:

[John T. Folden]

Exactly, and trying to do so would defeat the purpose of CR which is a modern reconstruction.

It's good that you realize this.

Sadly, I've run across a few that claim to follow CR practices that very much seem to want to use it to "roll back the clock", play 'weekend Celt', ignore everything that's happened beyond the specific period that happens to be their personal focus, all evolutionary gains, etc... and still attempt to use "authenticity" to assert authority. It's a little pretentious and spiritually unhealthy, imo.

[odubhain]

It stands for Celtic Reconstructionism (http://www.paganachd.com/faq/whatiscr.html#whatiscr).



Shamanism is an eastern practice, though it is often used to describe Native American practices as well. Druidry has nothing to do with shamanism and if you're using shamnaism in the sense of magic, spirit and vision journies, healing rituals, etc. than you should also know there is more to Druidry than just spirituality and magic. Druids fulfilled many mundane roles such as judges, physicians, astronomers, and royal advisors. They weren't just "priests".

Druidry is exclusively Celtic, and has little to no worth outside of a Celtic context.

Druids were many things in one. They represent living Celtic wisdom in all of its many forms. Some of these practices and forms are mundane while others are metaphysical and esoteric. It is in these esoteric and metaphysical ways that Druids do things that are akin to the same things that Shaman do, however they are not Shaman. They are sometimes Shamanic in their ways. It's all about working within the otherworlds of reality to effect changes in this one. I know it seems strange that a person can embrace the loftiest philosophies while at the same time working in strange and eerie realms, but that's what Druids did and still do (if necessary).

Searles O'Dubhain

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Druids were many things in one. They represent living Celtic wisdom in all of its many forms. Some of these practices and forms are mundane while others are metaphysical and esoteric. It is in these esoteric and metaphysical ways that Druids do things that are akin to the same things that Shaman do, however they are not Shaman. They are sometimes Shamanic in their ways. It's all about working within the otherworlds of reality to effect changes in this one. I know it seems strange that a person can embrace the loftiest philosophies while at the same time working in strange and eerie realms, but that's what Druids did and still do (if necessary).

Searles O'Dubhain

I would overall agree with this...and that is why I said similar to Shamanism...

However , our earlier Tradition , was more focused in that direction ,
well before what Druidism developed into , as per some of the duties
described previously...as we know...things change...

[John T. Folden]

I very much agree.

I'm glad you also addressed the "Druid and Shaman" issue.

Hey Thomas, took a moment to glance over your site and forums this evening and wanted to wish you good luck with your endeavors. I think you are fostering a very healthy environment there.

:cheers:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

One thing I do wish to make clear , is my disagreement
concerning the Druid as strictly Celt belief...

I do know of an older tradition...and our Oral Tradition ,
utilized an 11 dimensional tree , known as the Faery Tree ,
which we traveled up and down , similar to the other
shamanic traditions , around the world...seven vertical
dimensions , in three world divisions , with four elemental
dimensions...

This was just one of the similarities in practice...

[John T. Folden]

One thing I do wish to make clear , is my disagreement concerning the Druid as strictly Celt belief...[/SIZE][/FONT]


Care to post some sources for bronze age (or earlier) Druids existing outside of Celtic culture?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Care to post some sources for bronze age (or earlier) Druids existing outside of Celtic culture?

Pre - History Oral :

As I offered Tomas : Care to come study the real
20 year study code of the Tradition , or are you and
others content to believe what Romans , and others
who knew nothing of the original tradition , said
about us ?

This is the same type of malarkey , which faces the
Italian Witchcraft Tradition...Well , historians say
this...well , so what ?

There was a reason they did not know...there was
recorded later , during the Celtic era...what was
allowed to be given out...but many parts of our
tradition changed by then...we did not have the
same concepts , or ideas as the Celts...

We were the Gods...we did not worship any...
That came later...what we saw as the fall of our
tradition...

I have no problem with any of you choosing a Celtic
path...just do not pigeonhole our older tradition , and
try telling us it did not exist , because it is not in your
history books , which to us , are laughable...

History is always left to those who claim victory...
not to those who quietly practice their tradition ,
in secret , safe from prying eyes...blessings...:hahugh:

[Faol-chù]

I'd be interested in seeing some information where the Druids were said to have "lorded" power over the people (aside from the class structure inherent in the society of the time).

Well, really, that "class structure inherent in the society of the time" is pretty difficult to get 'aside from'...

You have a class of people whose specialty is the 'spoken word' alongside a warrior class whose specialty was waging war, and class whose specialty was agriculture.
Especially as compared with the 'farming' class, the druids were much more worldly, and dare I say, 'articulate'.
Please don't tell me that you actually believe that someone who bore the title 'druid' was somehow morally 'superior' to others in the society at the time (other than through their own eyes, and others whom they were able to convince through their own spoken word!). (?)
As I see it, they were people...no better than the others...just more articulate.

...Although, if you compare the 'druids' with the Brahmin of India, they DID think they were 'morally superior' to others in the society, and were able to convince others in the society of their superiority...largely due to their birth status. But extremely articulate people are able to convince others of all sorts of things every day. That is true now, and it was true then.



It's always been my impression that the Druids were *respected* and that any authority they had was acknowledged to them because they *knew* things or that they could actually do things *well*.I think we should bear in mind that the impressions we have of the druids are mostly through the eyes of others who either feared the druids, or admired them (probably a great deal for the power they were able to wield within their culture). CERTAINLY, these people respected them.


If anyone is to be a Druid today then they should *know* their information well and be respected for it or they should have one of the traditional skills to the level of acknowledged mastery. One is not appointed a Druid, a scholar, a master craftsperson, an expert until one actually does the work and demonstrates the skills. That's how it was then and that is how it is now.I honestly think that ignoring the darker aspects and possibilities of what the druids actually WERE is donning rose-coloured glasses. These druids were PEOPLE, just like anybody else, and as such, they were subject to human things like EXPLOITATION...Not saying they ALL did it.
Just like in modern times we have a few politicians of noble character, quite a few doctors who NEVER get caught up in the power over life and death they seem to wield, and people in all sorts of field who NEVER let their power or the respect they command by their title go to their head...But there are a lot of them that do, as well. This needs to be acknowledged in this culture today, and I can't see how it COULD have been any different then. My opinion is based on my reading of Scottish Gaelic folklore, both oral and written, as well.


The excellence of word, the mastery of skill, the perfection of discipline is what makes a Druid; that and holding to the truth; honoring the gods and respecting those who do the right things. That's what Druids taught and did in the past. That's what Druids should do now and in the future.

Searles O'DubhainIdeals are nice, but they are not always realistic, and the potential for corruption should be acknowledged.

[Faol-chù]

I find it absolutely AMAZING that this 'Oral Prehistory' is apparently extant in English, but not in any Celtic language. :spaceman:




Pre - History Oral :

As I offered Tomas : Care to come study the real
20 year study code of the Tradition , or are you and
others content to believe what Romans , and others
who knew nothing of the original tradition , said
about us ?

This is the same type of malarkey , which faces the
Italian Witchcraft Tradition...Well , historians say
this...well , so what ?

There was a reason they did not know...there was
recorded later , during the Celtic era...what was
allowed to be given out...but many parts of our
tradition changed by then...we did not have the
same concepts , or ideas as the Celts...

We were the Gods...we did not worship any...
That came later...what we saw as the fall of our
tradition...

I have no problem with any of you choosing a Celtic
path...just do not pigeonhole our older tradition , and
try telling us it did not exist , because it is not in your
history books , which to us , are laughable...

History is always left to those who claim victory...
not to those who quietly practice their tradition ,
in secret , safe from prying eyes...blessings...:hahugh:

[Nitefalle]

First of all Shawn, if something is kept "secret" for (apparently) thousands of years, of course the population at large will think it doesn't exist, what do you really expect? Secondly, don't pop into the middle of a conversation, spout something as fact, and then tell people that it's from some secret oral tradition and that they need to come study with you for years to learn the truth. It comes off as snide and sanctimonious. If something is a secret, don't taunt people with a hint of it and then tell them you can't explain the rest. It's tantamount to just saying "I know a secret and I'm not telling". If you're going to share, then share. If not, keep your mouth shut.
Thirdly, you still have not given any evidence that Druidism fell outside the realms of the Celts. You offered something nonsensical about an eleven dimensional Faerie tree, but what that has to do with Druids not being Celts I don't know. Kindly explain further for us poor saps that don't speak Obri Runic and dance to the call of the eleven dimensions and claim to follow a path in which the practicioners apparently were gods before all the historians came along.

[odubhain]

Well, really, that "class structure inherent in the society of the time" is pretty difficult to get 'aside from'...

You have a class of people whose specialty is the 'spoken word' alongside a warrior class whose specialty was waging war, and class whose specialty was agriculture.
Especially as compared with the 'farming' class, the druids were much more worldly, and dare I say, 'articulate'.
Please don't tell me that you actually believe that someone who bore the title 'druid' was somehow morally 'superior' to others in the society at the time (other than through their own eyes, and others whom they were able to convince through their own spoken word!). (?)
As I see it, they were people...no better than the others...just more articulate.


I do believe that the Druids had a higher standard for themselves than most others in Celtic society. They were indeed human so they were not perfect, however they were respected because they behaved according to truth and law more often than others. That law said that a Druid could not be a Druid if they had ever been caught in a lie (kinda like sports figures and drugs). In fact, they had to pass a testing to determine their moral fiber before they became a Druid. They were the judges because of this and their having the law in their memories through study. They were known as philosophers by their neighbors, the Greeks and the Romans. Are philosophers more likely to hold to a higher standard?


...Although, if you compare the 'druids' with the Brahmin of India, they DID think they were 'morally superior' to others in the society, and were able to convince others in the society of their superiority...largely due to their birth status. But extremely articulate people are able to convince others of all sorts of things every day. That is true now, and it was true then.

People were not born Druids in ancient times. They had to apply to a Druid; study under a Druid and be accepted by their peers as well as the leaders of their areas and for their upstanding behavior.


I think we should bear in mind that the impressions we have of the druids are mostly through the eyes of others who either feared the druids, or admired them (probably a great deal for the power they were able to wield within their culture). CERTAINLY, these people respected them.

One must study all the material and distinguish truth from bias.


I honestly think that ignoring the darker aspects and possibilities of what the druids actually WERE is donning rose-coloured glasses. These druids were PEOPLE, just like anybody else, and as such, they were subject to human things like EXPLOITATION...Not saying they ALL did it.

I'm ignoring nothing. I'm merely presenting what I know from studying everything available to me. They were not perfect but at least one early Christian authority likened Christ to being a Druid while Gaelic Bibles have the Three Wise Men as being Three Druids. That says a lot about how Druids were respected by much of Gaelic society.


Just like in modern times we have a few politicians of noble character, quite a few doctors who NEVER get caught up in the power over life and death they seem to wield, and people in all sorts of field who NEVER let their power or the respect they command by their title go to their head...But there are a lot of them that do, as well. This needs to be acknowledged in this culture today, and I can't see how it COULD have been any different then. My opinion is based on my reading of Scottish Gaelic folklore, both oral and written, as well.

I do think that humans are humans. My brother is a medical doctor and a good one. I have met other medical doctors who I would not trust with a band-aid. I've met few politicians and lawyers who did not have feet of clay, while OTOH I have met several ministers and priests of other religions who seem sincere. With great power comes great responsibility. Also, unfortunately, with great power comes corruption. That is why a higher moral standard and self policing is important to Druids. Inherently, one cannot have a relationship with spirits if one is not spiritual.

That does not negate being able to use the mind and body for more worldly things. Those activities should be governed by law applied according to the traditions of the people. It applies to Druids and others alike. One can take anyone to court now as one could then. If court did not satisfy one's need for justice then the troscaid was an alternative. If a person's will and truth were powerful enough then they could fast against the offender and that person would be seen as guilty unless they also fasted against the accuser. In an honorable society, fasting would quickly make for more reasonable agreements between contending parties.


Ideals are nice, but they are not always realistic, and the potential for corruption should be acknowledged.

The potential for corruption is a part of the world and always has been. Corruption is a part of our entire physicality. The mind and ideas are also corruptible. Ideals are the spiritual standards that we seek to attain. Without clearly stating and understanding ideals we are not even as worthy as animals (who have built-in standards of behavior called instincts).

IMO Druids of old attained to higher spiritual and moral standards than much of their society in their quest for truth. Any power they truly had came from whatever truth was in them. I hope to encourage those who would be Druids today to seek truth rather than power, as power comes from truth but only after wisdom has distinguished truth from fallacy.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Shawn Blackwolf]

First of all Shawn, if something is kept "secret" for (apparently) thousands of years, of course the population at large will think it doesn't exist, what do you really expect? Secondly, don't pop into the middle of a conversation, spout something as fact, and then tell people that it's from some secret oral tradition and that they need to come study with you for years to learn the truth. It comes off as snide and sanctimonious. If something is a secret, don't taunt people with a hint of it and then tell them you can't explain the rest. It's tantamount to just saying "I know a secret and I'm not telling". If you're going to share, then share. If not, keep your mouth shut.
Thirdly, you still have not given any evidence that Druidism fell outside the realms of the Celts. You offered something nonsensical about an eleven dimensional Faerie tree, but what that has to do with Druids not being Celts I don't know. Kindly explain further for us poor saps that don't speak Obri Runic and dance to the call of the eleven dimensions and claim to follow a path in which the practicioners apparently were gods before all the historians came along.


I responded originally , if you check back , to Pictish Druid's
statement , of his belief of the Druidic tradition , being more
along the lines of Shaminism , and Pre - Celt...

This is in alignment with my knowledge , and tradition....

Now , if people ask for evidence of that tradition , on a board ,
and it can only be seen as evidence , by the study of a system
we used...ie : the system proves itself , by working with it , as a
code containing number - letter - symbol patterns , which through
study , show where the Druidic beliefs stemmed from , and the
mgieckal tradition , what else can I do , but offer it to those who
wish the evidence ?

It was a most gracious offer...not through the lens you chose to
see it...

No one on this board has a right to tell some one to keep there
mouth shut...you are welcome to not like what is said , choose
not to believe it...not stop someone from talking , or posting...

The mention of the Faery Tree , was , as I posted , dealing with
the older tradition , Pre - Celt , being more along the lines of
Shamanism...which has within it's practice , a tree the shaman
travels up and down , to communicate between the realms...

As for the information , not only have I offered individual , one
on one instruction , I am turning in my year and a day class syllabus ,
by tomorrow...which I have been waiting to do since I joined...to share
the information..

Now, Pictish Druid , and I , both apparently disagree , with the Druid
as Celt only , position...and that is more than allowed , on this board...
When someone asks me a question , I answer it , to the best of my ability...
If I can answer that particular question...if the answer is not to the liking...
such as is being made clear...that is your right to believe what you want...
Perhaps , not what is correct , which I know it not to be...

As per your question , Faol - Chu : I find it interesting , in Oregon , I was
approached by a Scotsman , who spoke what he called the Old Gaellic...
which is the language I teach , and speak...though , as he said , it was
the one language , all spoke before it was broken up...when I asked him
how he knew it , he laughed , and said it was passed down in his family ,
along with a ring , set with rubies , emeralds , and other precious stones...

This is one of the many confirmations , I have had over the years...That is
the best answer I can give you...

Now , Pictish Druid , and I have our beliefs...you all have yours...I also
know the Oral Tradition...is it not said , Druids did not write things down ?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

How about telling us where these "traditions" came from, who taught you, reveal some of these "ancient codes", etc.?


We know just about nothing to extremely little of pre-Celtic practices in the Gaelic lands. Honestly, I doubt such an oral tradition would have survived through 5,000+ years. This Faery Tree you describe is very similar to the Irish and Welsh poetic tradition of "climbing the world tree/Bile" to attain magic, poetic and divine inspiration, or "the fire of the Gods" which wouldn't be pre-Celtic in origin.

Reasonable Questions , Tomas...up to a point...

As for where traditions came from...all traditions were one tradition ,
long ago...then were fractaled off , from one vast possibility system...

one tradition , seen through many lenses , or one lens , tilted differently...

Raven Grimassi , just answered my question along these lines , when I
posited the tradition to him...seemed he could see that possibility...

As for names of who taught me...come now Tomas , that would be an
invasion of their privacy...and not within our tradition's ways...

As for further information , I have posted...you can pm me , and I would
be happy to direct you...

As for your disbelief a system could have survived...that is yours , and
perhaps others opinion...which I respect , yet do not agree with...

and , you are right...little is known...therefore what evidence is there , I am
not correct , and true , in what I am stating ?

The idea of the tree was passed down in many cultures , from older ways...
How can you say it began with Celtic...? It merely mutated with culture...

[Nitefalle]

This is just more of your circular arguments. Why must answers be PM'd? You are on a public board, why not offer the information up to the public? And saying that all traditions come from one long ago is not really answering the question.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

This is just more of your circular arguments. Why must answers be PM'd? You are on a public board, why not offer the information up to the public? And saying that all traditions come from one long ago is not really answering the question.

I do not argue...that is for others...I state what I know...
you have your opinion , and what knowledge you
have...I have mine...others have theirs...that is fine...

I do not choose to remain , and debate , discuss , or
argue...that has never been my way...I posted , in
agreement with Pictish Druid , answered a few
questions , to the best of my ability , when asked to do so...

I have answered the question...some shall not hear the answer...

As for directing Tomas...I offer him to pm me , regarding my
previous posts , which anyone can find with effort here...

However , it was a courtesy to him...unless , since you know of
my posting about the Obri - Runic tongue , perhaps you should
like to direct him , instead ?

Tomas , I again extend my invitation...otherwise...I am working on
my class syllabus...:hahugh:

[John T. Folden]

I'm terribly sorry but it all sounds very fluffy to me, rather like neophytes claiming Wicca as an intact ancient religion for all of Europe. If you want to claim an unverifiable oral tradition lasting for thousands and thousands of years then you, also, have to accept the possibility that it was heavily modified during that time or even created whole cloth just a few short years ago, outside of direct sight. I'm reminded of the telephone game where someone starts with a sentence and passes it down the line and it comes out the other end bearing little resemblance to the original.

If you want to take everything on faith and it satisfies you spiritually then I think that's great as validity is not tied to authenticity but, personally, I like pulling back the veil and seeing the truth behind things.

[odubhain]

I'm terribly sorry but it all sounds very fluffy to me, rather like neophytes claiming Wicca as an intact ancient religion for all of Europe. If you want to claim an unverifiable oral tradition lasting for thousands and thousands of years then you, also, have to accept the possibility that it was heavily modified during that time or even created whole cloth just a few short years ago, outside of direct sight. I'm reminded of the telephone game where someone starts with a sentence and passes it down the line and it comes out the other end bearing little resemblance to the original.

If you want to take everything on faith and it satisfies you spiritually then I think that's great as validity is not tied to authenticity but, personally, I like pulling back the veil and seeing the truth behind things.

Seeing the truth is what the Druid way is all about. At times, that might be uncomfortable or disturbing but truth is the central power that creates the universe. As such, it can never be a bad thing to see the truth of how a thing was, how it came to be and how it is today. I would very much like to hear how the tradition in discussion came to be and all of the facts that support it. If it is an ancient oral tradition, then there must be thousands and thousands of tales in its knowledge base.

It shouldn't be much trouble to present ten or twenty of the most pertinent ones here as a quick introduction. I'm all for learning about the ancient ways of other people, especially where it is said by them that the ways of my own people descend from them. It'll be interesting to compare notes, ask pointed questions and see where the consistencies and inconsistencies are to be found (if they exist). Sometimes, being challenged on something that seems obvious to one's self is a great incentive to better express the thoughts that seem self evident within but may be very scattered when presented to others without an adequate setting of foundation materials and basic principles.

I've been at this for 32 years now and hope to give it another 32 before I'm recycled so I'm all eyes and ears and awaiting the details. Listening and watching might save me some time in place of searching and seeking.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Now that I fixed my Banner...interesting it disappeared...

I can make a quick answer Searles...Reasonable offer...
However , it won't work that way...here is why...
( Then I will make my counter offer )

Without the code , with it's symbol arrangements ,
attributions , and layers of meaning in front of you ,
you would not be able to see where and how , I was
deriving answers , and conclusions...that would
again , make it easy to dismiss...I am sure you can
understand that , as you seem fair enough...

So here is my counter offer...continue your debate ,
as it was , before I posted...When I send class sheets ,
hard copy , to a friend , who will be scanning them ,
and posting them for me , for my class , and as I unfold
only the beginnings of the depths of the code , over the
year and a day of the class , you will have the option of
peeking in to view what is being revealed...as will others...

It will become actual then , rather than abstracted...I do
feel this is the wisest course of action , as I am busy on
two fronts...getting ready for the class...and being a new
moderator at another site...

One thing I will tell you , which you shall be able to confirm ,
by looking in on the class...two particular columns of symbols...

Each having eight symbols...one contains , by letter values ,
and sounds...the words Uthar , and Arthur...

The opposite column...makes the shape of the longsword ,
when the symbols are fit together...this is an example , of the
levels of the code , and why , without seeing it , it is nigh
impossible to show , or explain , let alone document...

I plan on beginning the class September 21st...Blessings...:hahugh:

[odubhain]

Thought I'd mention to you that my tradition also has a code. It's called Ogham and it pretty much spells, sounds and sums up everything a Druid would know and it was written down during the time when the traditions went from being strictly oral to a combined oral and written one.

Searles

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Well aware of Ogham , Searles...

What we called Moon - Sun Face Language...
As Oghma , has the number value of Moon...

To us it was the Outer Language...
The Inner , was the Blood Runes of Woman...

The 29 , which were later changed into the 29 Brehon Laws...

Thank you for letting me know...

I really would rather have informative fun , than argue...:hahugh:

[skilly-nilly]

The 29 , which were later changed into the 29 Brehon Laws...



There are actually hundreds of Brehon Laws.

[blackroseivy]

IMO Druids of old attained to higher spiritual and moral standards than much of their society in their quest for truth. Any power they truly had came from whatever truth was in them. I hope to encourage those who would be Druids today to seek truth rather than power, as power comes from truth but only after wisdom has distinguished truth from fallacy.

I just wanted to tell you that I absolutely see the wisdom in this.

I don't always agree with what is said here (& I lurk FAR more than I post), but we have to start somewhere & I believe that our past has a magickal dimension to it that doesn't require invention to make it more so.

Human beings are so prone to wishing the world were something other than what it is/was. I do believe that there is an unseen dimension to things - but part of what is unseen, & always will be, is the truth of the matters we are arguing here.

I am having a similar discussion about the origin of Tarot elsewhere. This is someone who would like to put a further dimension upon what is actually there, than is at all necessary. I was put in mind very much of that by this discussion.

We can't see the "truth" in its many guises, not really, when so much time has passed. But we can have a rudimentary idea, at least - there do exist sources. Why all the (supposed & alleged) secrecy? There were the Mystery Religions of the Classical world. They aren't so very secret now - we know a lot about them - because they were recorded, at least in part, by those who practiced them.

One of these "secret" religions is one that has influenced everything we are discussing here - Christianity.

Ideas do change over the centuries. Things do get lost. But I think that there are also constants - & we have some of those with us to this day.

Maybe I'm just rambling, here - I don't much like acrimonious discussion, which is exactly why I avoid this area of the forum.

We should have, I think, a little bit of respect for each other's ideas - but try to learn from what is actually there, & understand history, PRIOR to making claims about it.

[odubhain]

There are actually hundreds of Brehon Laws.One set of them that I have is six volumes and about thousands of pages. It's called The Ancient Laws of Ireland and was edited by Hancock, O'Curry, O'Donovan, O'Mahoney and others. Volume I is online here:

http://tinyurl.com/2l8o6h

There's other volumes available through Google Search and Google Book search.

There's also another printed set of the Brehon Laws available only in Irish that has 2343 pages (Binchy, Corpus Iuris Hibernici, 6 vols., 1978).

Searles

[odubhain]

I just wanted to tell you that I absolutely see the wisdom in this.

I don't always agree with what is said here (& I lurk FAR more than I post), but we have to start somewhere & I believe that our past has a magickal dimension to it that doesn't require invention to make it more so.

Human beings are so prone to wishing the world were something other than what it is/was. I do believe that there is an unseen dimension to things - but part of what is unseen, & always will be, is the truth of the matters we are arguing here.

I am having a similar discussion about the origin of Tarot elsewhere. This is someone who would like to put a further dimension upon what is actually there, than is at all necessary. I was put in mind very much of that by this discussion. I think the Tarot must have developed out of a set of universal images that can be seen with the eye of spirit. I know in the Ogham there are 3 sets of kennings for each Ogham that represent images very similar to Tarot. I'd be tempted to say that Ogham was the progenitor of Tarot except that would be placing limits where there are none. The creation or birth of Tarot and Ogham are in the eye of spirit, when the first spirit sought to commune with others. In a sense, such images are what we each create in the worlds around us as we come into being ourselves.

I think that's why NDE and deep meditations are so good for divinations. They establish a connection to the original images that are contained within our original selves. When we exist or inhabit a space of quietness and without form, our own spirits seek out creation for communion. It is in that place that one can connect to anything. Going intoan image is a purposeful journey into a created space. Tarot and Ogham are maps of such images that have been provided to us by the seers of the past to help us in our journeys. One can just *GO* on a serendipitous journey without a guide and hopefully upon one's return, enough can be remembered to create one's personal symbols of otherliness and awakening creation.

I have been thinking about this lately and your posting has spoken to my thoughts greatly. Many thanks.

Searles

[odubhain]

Wow, I knew the Laws were large and extensive but not THAT large and well-documented! I would assume those books are not cheap, eh?

The set I have was about $400. The other set might go for about the same thing. One can find scans of the Ancient Laws of Ireland online through Google.

Searles

[odubhain]

The use of ogham for divinatory purposes is a fairly modern innovation. There is little evidence to suggest that ogham was ever used divination or any other magico-religious purposes. Inscriptions are found on mundane things such as territorial markers and grave stones. Also ogham inscriptions date no further than the 5th century CE which is when Christianity was introduced to Ireland. With Christianity came the Latin alphabet which is what the ogham alphabet is based off of.
Ogham is *NOT* based on Latin but on Primitive Irish (see MacManus, A Guide to Ogam).

I get so tired of hearing that Ogham was not used in divination because the evidence from ancient times says otherwise if you've studied it. The Ogham were most certainly used in divination in ancient times. There are even references to this use in the traditional tales. I took the trouble to look up *some* of these uses:

INSTANCES OF DIVINATION FOUND IN THE DICTIONARY OF THE IRISH LANGUAGE
(eDIL, online edition; I’ve capitalized the entries that apply to Ogham Divination):

Cranchur

CRANNCOR NO AIRISEM IMAN AILIG NADHARTHA (AS MEANS OF DECISION), O'C. 2569 (EG. 88, 48(49)A) = 2587 (49(50)D) WITH ADDED COMMENT: AR NI TUALAING NECH DUINE RO MESTAR FIR D'ANTEIST ACHT INTI UMA AICI MENMA NA NUILE. PERH. A CHRISTIAN EXPLANATION OF SOME HEATHEN MODE OF DIVINATION (= INCUBATION ), PLUMMER MS. NOTES. FIR N-AIRISME FRI HALTOIR .I. IN T-AIRISMETU IM AILIG N-ADARTHA, LAWS V 470.34, 472.21 COMM. (WHERE TEXT HAS SUBSTITUTED THE CHRISTIAN ANALOGUE WHILE THE COMMENT PRESERVES THE HEATHEN ASPECT, PLUMMER). ?AS N.LOC. ROCUMSAT A.¤ AND CONID DE ASBERT A.¤ INGENE LŪACHĀIN, BCOLM. 18 § 17 .

Airlann

POINT, TIP OF A STAFF: TEIT ERLUND NA BACHLA TRIANA CHOIS, TRIP. 468.26 . DO BERED IN FILE AURLAND . . . FORS IN CEND ┐ RO FINNAD A AINM, LAWS I 44.6 COMM. (A FORM OF DIVINATION). CF. TABRAID CEND NA FLESCI FILED FAIR, CORM. Y 323 .

Druídecht

ā,f. (druí) later draídecht. dráoidheachd f., IGT DECL. § 26 . SECRET LORE AND ARTS OF THE DRUIDS; IN WIDER SENSE OCCULT SCIENCE, WIZARDRY. INCLUDED IN `DÁN-OGAM', AURAIC. 5799 . cend idlachta ┐ drúidechta na hEirenn, LAT. LIVES 4.14 . co morfhiss ┐ go mórfhastine ┐ druidecht, TBC 1454 . aes in dána drúidechta, 1071
. ó aiti druidechta from (his) teacher of wizardry , TBC² 1927 = ó Manannán mac Lir, TBC 2587 . druidheacht is idlacht, TODD NENN. 144.3 . tria brechtaib a drúidechta (of Balaam), SR 4780 . rodúsig demnu tria d.¤, PH 2198 . co ndíchur eluda draidechta na Cristaige, 1172 . popul na drui[d]ecda, popal iat sén da fognaitis fesa ┐ faistine, CCATH. 724 . is e luid do fhoglaim druidechta co Simon ndruid, RAWL. 157.36 . a gcur fo dhraoigheacht, OSS. IV 176.18 . re tioghlaicthibh na dr[a]oidheachta with the rewards of divination , Numb. xxii 7 . In pl. magic arts or practices: tre druidechta druad, IT I 68 . no gniad druidechta, FB § 75 . do fhoglaim ilair ndraigecht, LEC. 84 A 36 . Attrib. gs. of magical formation: ceo drúidechta, FB § 39 . biasta druidechta, § 57 . in da fiach druiidechta, LU 3784 ( SC § 35 ). lúath-anál draidheachta, IM. BRAIN I 65.22 . na fir druidhectae ro artraiccset do Iasson, CCATH. 2823 . robo chath draigeachta he, LEC. 545 B 29 .

Éicse
iā, f.

(1) DIVINATION, THE FACULTY OF DIVINATION; WISDOM, THE PROFESSION OF A SEER (CF. ÉICSIU): LUID IN MAC DO ḟOGLAIM ÉCSI I NALBAIN...CORBO EOLACH I N-ÉCSI. LUID LAA AND... CO MBÚI FOR BRÚ MARA, AR BÁ BAILE FALLSIGTHE ÉICSI DO GRÉS LASNA FILEDU FOR BRÚ USCI...RO LA BRICHT FORSIN TUIND, CORO ḟALLSIGED DÓ CID ROMBÓI, COTÁRFAS DÓ, ETC. RC XXVI 8
. NI THALLA ADAR N-ÉCSI (V.L. OLLOMNAS)...I N-OENBALE, UAIR FOROSNÁI TH' EICSI DUIT IT OLLAM AR EOLAS, IBID. CO NDERNUI IIII FLESCCA IBIR OCUS SCRÍPUIDH OGHUMM INNTIB, OCUS FOILLSIGHTHIR DO TRIANA EOCHRAIB ÉCSI OCUS TRIANA OGHUMM, .I. E. DO BITH I SITH B., IT I 129.23 . COLL ÉCSI A HAZEL OF DIVINATION (?) MET. DINDS. III 286.24 . Cf. also: aisneis na heisce (= éicse ?), ANECD. V 23 , N. 1, 2 (cf. AURAIC. 5244 - 6 ). EOCHAID RÍGÉIGES...ROBAI F. OCA CHUIRED CHUCAI DO EICSI DO `TO MAKE VERSE FOR HIM ' (TO PERFORM DIVINATION FOR HIM ?) ÉRIU VIII 156.2 .

(2) revelation, lore, learning; esp. poetry, poetic composition; also the poetic art, poetic skill or faculty, the calling of a poet: ro theich in topur...tria chocur na céol- éicse, MET. DINDS. III 290.50 . is aisti rathmar...is eicsiu athlam...debidi imrind IT III 106 § 15 . oi issan éxi ainm ina cæirech `oi' is the word for sheep in poetry ZCP III 245.30 . cia dán airbere? ar in rí. écse, ol sé what art dost thou practice? poetry LL 289 A 36 = RC XIII 442Z . tuccais an éccsi nglain...ót mathair from thy mother thou hast inherited poetic faculty ZCP VIII 109.27 . ar duthchus a mathar dodhechaidh re heiccsi took to the poetic pro- fession 110.5 . an exe ata let co becht 110.2 . ní dia eícsi do tha[i]dbsin doib, ÉRIU VII 4.27 ; 198.15 . ní bhaoi... aonmac gallócclaigh as mó do chendaigh dḟíon ┐ d'éiccsi iná an tÉ. sin FM V 1728.20 . tús anóra gér dual di | fa tuar ansógha in éigsi, O'GR. CAT. 392.11 . gidh beag Ieam a ndéinim dhi | a nEirinn is fhearr mh'éigsi, IR. REVIEW 1913, 625 . níor fháguibh don éigsesi...tim ná cruaidh gan chuartoghadh, STUDIES 1923, 423 . daoire na n-éigseadh the dearness of the poems TD 11.34 . i n-aghaidh céille 's fírinne na sein-éigse, CONTENT. XVI 138 .

Fidlann

O,M. (FID + LANN `BLADE '? BUT LATTER IS FEM.) A PIECE OF WOOD USED IN DIVINATION AND HENCE THE DIVINATION ITSELF (SOME KIND OF RHABDOMANCY OR XYLOMANCY, STOKES RC XII 440 ). FÍS NĀ [ḟ]IDHLAND NĀ AISLING, ACALL. 4928N . NP. TECHAIT FIDLAIND (.I. TIAGAIT ASS NA LANNA CO FÍ .I. IN GENTLECHT) RC XXVI 32.153
; 33 N.11 . ap. dogniat ... auptha ┐ felmasa ┐ fídlanna XII 428.7 . Cf. prec., and see FELMAS, and IDLANN.

Flesc
ā,f. ns. ind ḟlesc SG 40 B 16 . ndu. di ḟlisc 3 B 19 . np. flesca, THES. II 48.1 .


(a) a rod, wand, stick (cut off a tree, or of metal, esp. one carried in the hand) : gl. virga HIB. MIN. 10.340 . ferula THES. II 48.1 . vimen 360.25 ( Philarg. Ecl. ii 72 ). f.¤ for dib ngablaib lasin conair immetiagat do erissem dia lethlaim furi ┐ lorc isind laim aili (gl. virgam et baculum) ML 45 C 9 . nír ás frén na f.¤ feda trit riam LL 5 A 40 . co nderna cliab bec do fhleascaib cuill, LISM.L. 2401 . femen .i. f.¤, AURAIC. 610 (femen taken as = Lat. vimen). gran ... con- dafema f.¤ (`so that the flail strip it ' Stokes, in O'DAV. 833 ) LAWS IV 94.16 COMM. (cf. f.¤ .i. suist, O'DAV. 833 ; f.¤ .i. traigh ut est o ro femadh f.¤ .i. iarna lomadh o fleisg 898 ). f.¤ līn `scutching-stick ' LAWS I 150.6 . benaid ... in sruth co fleisc dúir ... co tócband inna anmand súas do chind na flesci LU 2118 ( FA 18 ). soud flesci Moysi a nathraig PH 3429 . folt ... amal flesca óir LU 3639 ( SC 31 ) (cf. folt na bhfleasg bhfáinneach, CL. AB 216.40 . See also under FLESCACH I). flesca findarcit inna lámaib (of harpers) LU 7637 ( BDD 119 ). f.¤ airgid 'na láim ac certugud na heachraidhi, Comp. ConC. 101.13 . co flescaib iarnaidib ... do sroigled ... na pecthach LU 2085 ( FA 15 ). f.¤ óir (fig. of a bishop), FÉL. APRIL 25
OF ANGULAR STAVES FOR OGHAM INSCRIPTIONS : CORM. Y 606 (S.V. FÉ). ÉRIU XIII 228.3 . MA ROSECHMAILL A ḟLESG ┐ DORINDE AĪR IB. 5 . CO NDERNUI .IIII. FLESCCA IBAIR [SIC LEG. ] ┐ SCRÍPUIDH OGHUMM INNTIB (FOR DIVINATION) IT I 129.21 . vii mbethi a n-aonfleisg do beithi, AURAIC. 2804 . See also under (1 FLESC (F)) below. lath, wattle (in a structure) : coic seoit i ndul tri a tech ... dartaid i fleisc tís, dairt i fleisc thuas, samaisc i cleith this, colpdach i cleith tuas, LAWS IV 312.15
( Cr. G. 215 ). Of plectrum for a `timpán' (?) : fleasc gu cairche ced-ceol cain RC XLIII 10 (expld. as `a wand with hair, i.e. a bow,' O'Curry MANN. AND CUST. III 363 ). See 1 FLESC (F), below (f).
(b) a line, stroke: o méit di flescaib bís hisin tórunt .i. mad óenf.¤ is .i. mad di ḟlisc is .n. (gl. ex quantitate figurae linearum) SG 3 B 19 . ind ḟlescsa huasind .m. `this line over the m. ' 40 B 16 . cōic feadha cach aicmi, ┐ is oen co a cōic cach ae .i. aenfleisc co cōic flescaib (i.e. an Ogham letter contains from one to five strokes), Auraic 976 .

(f) flesc filed (fileta)

(1) POET'S WAND, STAVE: CEND NA FLESCI FILED (USED IN DIVINATION,CF. IT I 129 , CITED ABOVE UNDER (1 FLESC (A))), CORM. Y 323 . FUATH A BHFLEASG AG FILEADHUIBH IGT , DECL. EX. 1212 (PERH. `OGHAM STAVES' HERE ? SEE UNDER (1 FLESC (A)) ABOVE). ro gabastair ... a fhlesc fhileta fhindruine SG 239Z . ro chroith a fhlesc fhileta fhiled i ndorus in baile ┐ do chuala in dóir- seoir in fuaim sin 240.3 .
(2) poet's fillet, wreath (mark of his calling) : fleasg file fána cheann ITS I 84.5 (cf. 1 FLESC (E) above).

Lann
ā, f. (Lat. lām(i)na, PED. I 240 ). IGT DECL. § 40 , 199 .

NOTE ALSO: TECHTAID FIDLAIND .I. TIAGAIT AS NA LANNA CO FÍ .I. IN GENTLIDECHT DIVINATION-RODS (?), LL 188 A 26 . SEE FÍ.

Ogam

ogam ogham o.
Keywords: Ogham; ogham; inscription
Letter: O
COLUMN: 112
Line: 063

ogum (ogom)
o,m. later ogam, ogham.

(a) Ogham, a species of writing or script used in Ireland in early times, though prob. adapted from the Roman alphabet (see, however, Macalister, The Secret Languages of Ireland 28 ). In Irish ogham the letters (25 in all) were represented by strokes, vertical or oblique and varying in number from one to five, drawn from one or both sides of a foundation-line (druim); it was commonly employed on stone pillars or rectangular staves of wood, of which an angle served as `druim'. The only extant specimens are inscriptions on burial- (or memorial-?) stones. Its invention was traditionally ascribed to Ogma mac Elathan (see OGMA): athair ogaim Ogma, mathair ogaim lam no sgian (i.e. Ogma was the in- ventor of Ogham, its efficient cause is hand or knife), AURAIC. 2813 . The letters in the o.¤ alphabet bore the names of trees or shrubs and the alphabet itself was called Beithe-luis(-nin) from the opening letters b, l, (n). Ogham script seems to have been cultivated in the bardic schools throughout the Middle Ages and in the Auraicept in BB and other MSS. 93 various kinds of ogham alphabet based on the Beithe-luis are described. In the curriculum of the bardic schools (given in IT III 32 § 2
34 § 9 , §12 ) 50 `ogums' (? ogham alphabets) form part of the course in the first, second, and third years respectively. IN HEROIC LIT. WE FIND OGHAM WRITING USED FOR BURIAL INSCRIPTIONS, CRYPTIC MESSAGES AND OCCAS. FOR DIVINATION (WOODEN STAVES OR RODS BEING USED FOR THE LAST PURPOSE).

(b) an ogham inscription: ogum i llia, lia uas lecht, IT I 158.1 ( LL 154 A 45 ). dammared Find fichtib glond | cian bud chuman in ogom, IB. 14 (= int ogum, LL fcs.). atá coirthe oca ulaid. ┐ atá ogom isin chind fil hi talam din corthi. Issed fil and. Eochaid Airgtech inso, LU 10993 = IM. BRAIN I 48.15 . ro tócbad a lia ┐ ro scríbad [a] ainm oguim, TFERBE 757 . dogni ith n-erchomail . . . ┐ scribais ogum ina menacc, TBC 2 224 = tuc ainm n-oguim 'na menuc, TBC 565 , cf. 675 , 1230 . dobert C. a sleigin dō ┐ doforne ogum n-ind, IT II 1 178.138 . CO NDERNUI [IN DRUÍ] IIII FLESCCA IBIR ┐ SCRÍPUIDH OGHUMM INNTIB, IT I 129.22 (A METHOD OF DIVINATION). Foidis . . . Dauid co hAibisolon in milid ┐ rig-ogum ina sciath do thabairt chatha, ZCP XIII 177.9 (i.e. secret instructions to give battle).

Ogham inscriptions were also used to attest sales, ownership of property, and for mere-stones; ogum na creca do beth i llic firt, H. 3.18 p. 251 ( O'C. 484 ), where a tombstone is used for the record. in bat la comorbaib cuimne cen ogom i n ailc[h]ibh . . . cen macu, cen ratha, IB. P. 22 A ( O'C. 61 ). comcuimne da crích . . . .i. in t-oghum isin gollan [= gallán], IB. P. 230 B ( O'C. 421 ). in t-ogum isin ngollán . . . gebid greim tuinide dō, H. 5.15 p. 7 a ( O'DON. 1581 ).

(c) in late gramm. treatises ogham apparently denotes the written language or spelling as distinguished from the spoken lang. or pronunciation (Gaedhelg). an connsuine bháithtear do gháoidheilg do dhénamh d'oghum san chomhfhocal, IGT INTROD. § 2.36 (i.e. to express in the written compound word a letter which is assimilated in pronunciation? an error; cf. § 41 , § 42 ). nach do réir oghuim do shíor chuirthear comhar- dadh, § 3 (i.e. rhyme is not invariably determined by spelling). ogham iomagallmha, § 1.6 (= current or ordinary spelling?). atáid cóig aicme chúigir san bheithe luis ┐ ger lór trí litre .xx. san ogham iomagallmha, § 4.16 (there are 25 characters in the `beithe-l.' or ogham alphabet, but only 23 in current script).


(d) the term ogham seems to have been later applied also to some species of Bérla na filed or cryptic lang., see Thurn. RC VII 369 , O'DON. GRAMM. P. XLVIII , and Macalister, The Secret Languages of Ireland 29 , 35 . obscurum loquendi modum, vulgo Ogham, anti- quariis Hiberniae satis notum, O'MOLLOY , GRAMMATICA LATINO- (quoted by O'Don., loc. cit. ). Morish O'Gibellan . . . an eloquent and exact speaker of the speech which in Irish is called Ogham , Ann. of Clonmacnoise (transld. by MagEoghe- gan) p. 286 ( an. . See OGMÓRACHT.

*** end of eDIL Information on Ogham Divination ***

Here's some excerpts from my books on the subject:

Eochra Éocsi

Let’s see how the Ogham were used in Celtic Magic, Draíocht and Filidecht. Discovering specific techniques (and their uses as keys) is difficult at best, because such information was not well documented. In fact, the use of Ogham by the Celts and the Druids seems to have been purposely concealed and obscurred (many statements exist in the writings regarding the attitude that Ogham were reserved for the “learned” classes). There are references to the practice of “crannchur” (the casting of lots using wood or stone). There is also mention of “fidlanna” (a word that means “the placing and/or carving of Ogham fedha for use in divination”). The game of “fidchell” (wood wisdom) was an early forerunner of chess and a favorite of kings and nobility (as well as the gods...it was sometimes played to determine the fate of mortals). The Ogham are also mentioned to be the “eochra éocsi” (keys of wisdom/seership) in several texts. To discover the ways that Ogham were used, I had to seek my own “Imbas Forosnai” and await that “sudden knowledge of illumination” that comes out of the darkness, as well as using some good old fashioned common sense. It is my belief that each Druid eventually established his/her own set of Magical Ogham meanings. These meanings and associations would have come out of the “inner work” that each student was expected to perform (in this, the Ogham would be akin to the Runes, which Odin was said to have “received” while suffering a shamanic death, a sacrifice of himself to himself). The Ogham tables would then have become the “keys” to that Druid’s own personal or family gods. These keys would then have been used to divine the future, commune with the Gods, or to travel spiritually (pathworking, Imbas Forosnai). I further believe that this type of “secret wisdom” is implied within the Ogham structure known as Fionn’s Wheel (or Fionn’s shield). There are many legends about this Magical structure that tell how Fionn and his shield acquired wisdom and Draíocht, but that is another story. There were other general and Magical meanings to the Ogham, but these seem to have been lost in the fires of history. One thing that appears to be obvious from their structure and their associated lists of correspondences is that the Ogham were used to allow the Druids and Filidh to become “Masters of Memory.”

Crannchur

Crannchur ársa: casting of lots, not limited to fiodhrádh;
modern: lottery, sweepstake

fiodhrádh - lit. “wooden utterance”, the druidic system
of divination by means of tree-letter-names

Foclóir Draíochta - Dictionary of Druidism
2nd Edition - le Seán Ó Tuathail

Crannchur, the casting of lots, usually involved selecting three Ogham fedha, though more could be chosen, as required, to represent each item involved in the divination. The ancient importance of wood for determining the future has survived in Modern Irish. The word “crann” can mean wood, though it can also mean divination. For more information on this use of wood in divination, we refer to A Social History of Ancient Ireland, where P.W. Joyce discusses the following instances of Crannchur:

“Three lots: one for the flaith or local lord, one for the ollave (who conducted the trial) , and the third for the accused. If the accused was guilty, his lot went to the bottom; if innocent, it floated.” (from the Brehon Laws)

“Three lots were put into a bag, one for guilt, one for innocence, and one for the Trinity [Gods]. If the accused first draws forth the lot for the Trinity [Gods], it is to be put back; and he is to draw again, till he brings forth either of the others, which determines the case.” (from the Book of Achill)

Joyce also describes another method from the Book of Achill where lots were drawn to determine which herd or swarm of bees had caused damages, and if necessary which animal or bee within them was responsible for the damage. This seems to be based on an iterative use of the lots as assigned to groups of the animals or bees. It is my opinion that the assignment of lots to animals was based on groupings in the Ogham similar to the aicme. By dividing a field or herd into fourths, and then fourths within fourths, one could zero in on an area very quickly.

In the Leabhar Gabála, we find an instance of lot casting among the Sons of Míl:

“After Eremon and Eber had divided the chieftains, they had two distinguished artists who had come into their company from the east, namely, a poet and a harper. Cir son of Cis was the poet, Cennfinn the harper. They cast a lot on them to know which of them should be with each of them; so that, through the decision of the lot, the harper went southward to Eber and thence melody of music and harmony followed in the Southern Half of Ireland. The poet went to Eremon, and knowledge of poetry and song followed him in the North ever after. To commemorate this it was said:

The two sons of Mil, famous in dignity,
Took Ireland and Britain;
With them there followed hither
A gentle poet and a harper.
Cior son of Cis, the bright poet,
The name of the harper Cennfin;
With the sons of Mil, of bright fame,
The harper sounded his harp.
The princes, with many battles,
Took the kingdom of Ireland;
They did it with brightness, merry the sound,
Eber and Eremon.
They cast a lot swiftly
About the great men of art;
So that there fell to the lot of the southerner
The harper, just and fair.
Melody of music more beautiful than any company
Is from the southward in the south of Ireland;
It was thus it will be to the fortunate Judgment
With the famous seed of Eber.
There fell to the lot of the northerner
The man of learning with great excellence;
Hence the tribes who brought him boast
Knowledge of poetry and learning.”

In the casting of lots by Eber and Eremon, as related by Roigne Roscanach, wood is used to divine the future. It is also associated with a choice between the north and the south of Ireland. This choice between conflict and harmony also appears on the Wheel Ogham that is named for Roigne Roscanach. On this diagram choices are determined between lefthandwise and righthandwise directions, as evidenced by the ways in which the Wheel Ogham turn. This choice between the two directions is to be found throughout Irish tradition from the earliest tales surrounding Bóann and the Well of Segais to the constant references about Conn’s half and Mug’s half of Ireland.

Two other examples of the casting of wooden lots are mentioned by the Roman statesman Cicero and the Roman historian Tacitus. In his De Divinatione, Cicero tells us that lots were cast at Praeneste which had ancient characters carved upon pieces of oak. In Germania, Tacitus tells us, “To divination and the lot they pay as much attention as anyone: the method of drawing lots is uniform. A branch is cut from a nut-bearing tree and divided into slips: these are distinguished by certain marks and spread casually and at random over white cloth …” Can these slips be fedha and are these marks Ogham? Let’s investigate other ways that marks were placed on wood by the ancients of Northern Europe.

Magical Implements

Sometimes, the many different parts of a Magical working were carved in Ogham upon wooden fedha (to serve as a memory trigger, as well as to increase or focus Magical power). Such fedha may have been selected from a particular place or even from a particular tree to further enhance the power of the spellwork. Names and intentions were probably also carved upon these fedha. They may have eventually been used as: votive offerings to the gods of the rivers, lakes, and sacred wells or they could have been set into the ground to mark out a sacred space. In the case of Eochaidh’s search for Étain (from 'the Wooing of Etain'), his Druid Dalan cut four wands of yew and wrote Ogham upon them. It was revealed to Dalan, through his own poetical chanting and the use of Ogham fedha, that Midir had spirited Étain away to the brúgh of Bri Leith. Such a use of four wands planted in the ground to define a sacred space, is a very similar technique to how I suggest we create our own sacred space. We can use the symbols of the Four Hallows of the Tuatha Dé Danann as markers of sacred space, when we attempt our own Ogham Divinations. By surrounding ourselves with the gifts of the Wizards and the power of the Gods, we can establish a home for the song of the spirit.

Four Staves of Yew

The four stave method used by Dalan occurs in the tale of Étain and her abduction from Eochaidh Airem by Midir. I will briefly recount the circumstances and particulars of the tale:

Étain had incurred the wrath of Lir’s wife, Fumanech. Because of this, she had gone through many escapes, lifetimes and transformations. During one such incarnation, she was located by her lover, Midir as the wife of the earthly king, Eochaidh Airem at Tara. Through trickery and a mastery of fidchell, Midir was able to spirit Étain away to Bri Leith, his sidhe mound. Eochaidh went to his Druid Dalan for a means of discovering where Étain had been taken. All available means failed to locate her, so Dalan resorted to his Draíocht and the Ogham. He cut four wands of Yew and carved Ogham upon them and then cast them in such a way as to tell him where she was hidden.

The version of the tale that I have says “… it was revealed to him, through his keys of poetic knowledge, and through his Ogam… “ We are not told which four Ogham Dalan carved upon his Yew rods in the recounting of the tale but we can suggest a method for his use of these Ogham in determining Étain ‘s whereabouts. The Ogham could have spelled out a name or they might have been used as a coordinate system. Four letters severely limits the number of names that can be constructed while coordinate systems are useless without a map to pin point locations. Perhaps Dalan selected and cast an Ogham for each of the four directions upon a cloth representing the Land? He could have next interpreted the meaning of each fidh, as it was oriented on the cloth relative to the others. The cloth could have been white as recounted by Tacitus. If the cloth had been modeled after Fionn’s Wheel and each of the Ogham symbols on it had been selected from a suitable Ogham set, such as fortress Ogham, then the intersection of the four Ogam meanings would have indicated Étain’s location. Personally, I think that a white cloth can have a cosmology projected upon it through the mind of the Seer. In this case, it would be serving as a screen for the mind and an altar of sorts for the reading. His assembling of meanings from the fedha of the casting and their orientation on the cloth’s cosmology into a single answer implies to me that Dalan used a form of Dichetal Do Chennaibh. This was the only form of Imbas that was not forbidden to the Filidh by Padraig because it required no invocations and sacrifices to the gods and supposedly involved only learning.

There are other instances of Ogham and wood wisdom being used for magical and divinatory practices in Irish tradition. I hope what I've mentioned here helps dispel the false notion that Ogham divination is a modern invention. Ogham was one of the foundations of the practices of the Irish Draoithe in divination, in magic, in memory work and in creating poetry.

Searles O'Dubhain

[blackroseivy]

I think the Tarot must have developed out of a set of universal images that can be seen with the eye of spirit. I know in the Ogham there are 3 sets of kennings for each Ogham that represent images very similar to Tarot. I'd be tempted to say that Ogham was the progenitor of Tarot except that would be placing limits where there are none. The creation or birth of Tarot and Ogham are in the eye of spirit, when the first spirit sought to commune with others. In a sense, such images are what we each create in the worlds around us as we come into being ourselves.

I think that's why NDE and deep meditations are so good for divinations. They establish a connection to the original images that are contained within our original selves. When we exist or inhabit a space of quietness and without form, our own spirits seek out creation for communion. It is in that place that one can connect to anything. Going intoan image is a purposeful journey into a created space. Tarot and Ogham are maps of such images that have been provided to us by the seers of the past to help us in our journeys. One can just *GO* on a serendipitous journey without a guide and hopefully upon one's return, enough can be remembered to create one's personal symbols of otherliness and awakening creation.

I have been thinking about this lately and your posting has spoken to my thoughts greatly. Many thanks.

Searles

Wow! :D So happy to have been on-target here!

Indeed & indeed, I am a VERY big person for THE ARCHETYPES. Having certain patterns programmed into our very genes certainly makes perfect sense to me... They look just a little bit different according to your culture, seen as it were through a lens thereby; but there are things there that are so basic that they show up "uil eteann, uil eineann" (ok, that was phonetic because I can't remember how to spell it & I'm too lazy to look it up!! :yayah: ). I'm sure you get the gist!

Eh - things persist. I don't think that just because someone happened to have lived on THIS side of the dividing-line of time, that they were recording something brand-new that had only JUST been thought of... Think about that - how likely IS that, anyway??

That's exacly how I feel about the Tarot - I believe strongly that those primitive playing-cards that preceded them lent themselves so easily to "cartomancy" - brand-new invention of the late 18th century, I DON'T think!

People - especially in Celtic-tongued lands - tend to be ARCH-conservative, to have things in "the old ways", just as time-immemorial ancestors had it.

What we have of Celtic culture is like that - passed down.

If someone Christian invented Ogham divination, why did they choose to do it JUST THEN, out of nowhere?

Nah - sorry, but I'm a picky historist myself, & you can't get me to believe that they didn't use their nifty invention for things that we know were important - even crucial - to their culture, contemporary with WHEN it was invented.

[odubhain]

Very interesting bits of informations, Searles. I thank you for taking the time to provide it.

I still skeptical. Perhaps it was used for religio-magical purposes during the early Christian era and in its bardic schools, but the evidence still seems weak that it was a pre-Christian practice. I don't think Christianized mythology written by monks and scribes, who probably were trained in these bardic schools, is strong enough.
To each their own. The Filidh (the Irish succesors to the Druids) had separate, secular schools wherein the traditional knowledge was remembered and also written down when writing became a mark of status. Not everything was or could be Christianized. The tradition was too strong in the society. The Filidh were a force in Irish tradition outside the Church.

I personally choose to follow the Irish traditions. Others can follow whatever path is suited for them. It works for me and leads me along the Druid way as well.

Why not read these papers and then see how old you think Ogham is?

Ogam: Celtic orPre-Celtic?
http://www.geocities.com/~dubricius/csana01.pdf

On the Age of Ogam
http://www.geocities.com/~dubricius/csana02.pdf

In the first, Professor Toby Griffen says:

"What all of this means for the study of Celtic and for the origin of ogam is that Indo-European languages may well have been spoken in the British Isles far earlier than even the 2500 BCE date of dispersal from the loessland given by Gimbutas (1970). And throughout all of this time, people were using the tally system that would eventually give rise to the ogam signary.

When people applied phonetic values to the tally system either as some form of writing per se or simply as a mnemonic device to identify the elements of the tally system itself, both the internal structure of the system and the comparative evidence noted above indicate that the value for H was denoted by some word beginning with the sound /p/.

If we designate Celtic as a language group in which /p/ had already been supplanted by an aspirate or by null, then the people who assigned the phonetic values to ogam were pre-Celtic. Indeed, the ogam signary can thus be seen as pre-Celtic, although it could still have been Indo-European in its now more ancient sense.

At this point, we shall have to reassess just what ACeltic@ means. Shall we take the narrow view and say that ogam is indeed pre-Celtic, or shall we take the broad view and say that Celtic stretches back much, much further into the past than we would perhaps prefer? If we choose the latter course, we may well find ourselves in the uncomfortable position of reconnecting the Celts with the megalithic cultures; but if we choose the former course, the ogam signary will fall outside of the linguistic tradition of Celtic, which will make its adoption problematic."

In the second, he goes further to say:

"Here is where the argument for a Greek influence falls apart and we get our first inkling as to the age of ogam. First of all, as noted above, original Indo-European /p/ changed through /c/ to null, yielding such correspondences as the Latin root nepot- ‘nephew, grandson’ to the Pictish ogam NEHT- and to the Irish ogam NET-. This had to have been completed before most Celtic dialects changed /kw/ to /p/, leading to such correspondences as Latin quinque ‘five’ and q-Celtic Irish cóic to p-Celtic Welsh pymp. If the loss of Indo-European /p/ had not been completed first, Welsh pymp would have ultimately been realized as *yn.

As it were, the Celtic or Celtic-influenced dialects of Lepontic and Ligurian had already completed the second shift by the beginning of the seventh century BCE at the latest (Lejeune 1971: 68-69, Whatmough 1970: 77-80). Indeed, this evidence could well draw us back into the second millennium (Whatmough 1970: 80). Once again, as we saw in last year’s reconstruction of ogam *P, for the loss of /p/ to be complete before the division between p-Celtic and q-Celtic, we may need to push back the time frame for Celtic and/or for ogam to the Bronze Age or even to the Late Neolithic or Calcolithic."

Griffen says there is good reason to suppose that Greek writing may well have grown out of the Ogam system! Ogham is very old and much older than Christianity and its influences. It's as old as tally sticks, tens of thousands of years old.

Searles

[Faol-chù]

To each their own. The Filidh (the Irish succesors to the Druids) had separate, secular schools wherein the traditional knowledge was remembered and also written down when writing became a mark of status.

I'd be interested in your source for this, and if possible a footnote from that source to check into it further--in particular, the part about writing it down. I am aware of the Filidh schools, as well as the Bardic schools.

Also, the Filidh were not "successors" to the Irish Druids. They were the specific group, both pre-Christian and during early Christianity, whose specialty was 'religious' oration. It began to be seriously eradicated during the time of Naomh Colum Cille (Columba). (And it was Columba who said "Christ is my druid.")

[Faol-chù]

I They were known as philosophers by their neighbors, the Greeks and the Romans. Are philosophers more likely to hold to a higher standard?

Well, depending on your viewpoint, Machiavelli was a philosopher...Was his standard "higher"? For that matter, what about Anton LaVey?



They were not perfect but at least one early Christian authority likened Christ to being a Druid while Gaelic Bibles have the Three Wise Men as being Three Druids. That says a lot about how Druids were respected by much of Gaelic society.

I have no doubts that druids, in general, were respected by much of Gaelic society. The gift of good (effective) speech is highly prized in Gaelic society.
However, respect for that should not be confused with a 'higher' sense of morality, as we understand such today. From my reading of the history of Gaelic society, people could do things to 'others' (outside of their community) that, if done to someone IN their community, would have been considered to be 'dishonorable'. Those societal boundaries completely alter societal expectations of 'morality'.

[odubhain]

Wow! :D So happy to have been on-target here!

Indeed & indeed, I am a VERY big person for THE ARCHETYPES. Having certain patterns programmed into our very genes certainly makes perfect sense to me... They look just a little bit different according to your culture, seen as it were through a lens thereby; but there are things there that are so basic that they show up "uil eteann, uil eineann" (ok, that was phonetic because I can't remember how to spell it & I'm too lazy to look it up!! :yayah: ). I'm sure you get the gist!

Eh - things persist. I don't think that just because someone happened to have lived on THIS side of the dividing-line of time, that they were recording something brand-new that had only JUST been thought of... Think about that - how likely IS that, anyway??

That's exacly how I feel about the Tarot - I believe strongly that those primitive playing-cards that preceded them lent themselves so easily to "cartomancy" - brand-new invention of the late 18th century, I DON'T think!

People - especially in Celtic-tongued lands - tend to be ARCH-conservative, to have things in "the old ways", just as time-immemorial ancestors had it.

What we have of Celtic culture is like that - passed down.

If someone Christian invented Ogham divination, why did they choose to do it JUST THEN, out of nowhere?

Nah - sorry, but I'm a picky historist myself, & you can't get me to believe that they didn't use their nifty invention for things that we know were important - even crucial - to their culture, contemporary with WHEN it was invented.

When one is divining, it is best to listen to the voice of the divine. That means stopping distracting thoughts and being completely in the NOW. From the NOW one can connect at the crossroads to EVERYWHERE. When knowing things as they truely are one is able to MAKE and BECOME almost anything. That's how it works. Sounds simple but requires us to lose a lot of baggage. :-)

Images and symbols are tools that help us cross the barriers to the divine when we are still testing the waters with our toes. :-)

Searles

[odubhain]

Well, depending on your viewpoint, Machiavelli was a philosopher...Was his standard "higher"? For that matter, what about Anton LaVey?

I don't think either of those guys were philosophers and if they were, they are not the norm.



I have no doubts that druids, in general, were respected by much of Gaelic society. The gift of good (effective) speech is highly prized in Gaelic society.
However, respect for that should not be confused with a 'higher' sense of morality, as we understand such today. From my reading of the history of Gaelic society, people could do things to 'others' (outside of their community) that, if done to someone IN their community, would have been considered to be 'dishonorable'. Those societal boundaries completely alter societal expectations of 'morality'.


Morality is tightly associated with societies (in much the same way that laws are unique to social structures). Ethics seem to be more of an individual choice. The Druids taught both morality and ethics within Celtic society, so one would think them to be trusted to have attained a high degree of both and to have been respected for that (as well as their knowledge and skills).

Searles

[Faol-chù]

When the Druid class was declining in Ireland, the Filidh assumed many of their functions and duties and practically replaced them. The Filidh weren't so much eradicated by the Church, infact the Church incorporated them and even placed many in the ranks of priests due to their power and knowledge.

Yes...it seems likely that Colum Cille was born into a family of Filidh, and was one of those who became a 'Christian Filidh'.
However, it was in his time that the Filidh schools began to fall into disfavor.

[odubhain]

I'd be interested in your source for this, and if possible a footnote from that source to check into it further--in particular, the part about writing it down. I am aware of the Filidh schools, as well as the Bardic schools.

Also, the Filidh were not "successors" to the Irish Druids. They were the specific group, both pre-Christian and during early Christianity, whose specialty was 'religious' oration. It began to be seriously eradicated during the time of Naomh Colum Cille (Columba). (And it was Columba who said "Christ is my druid.")


Here's a few decent papers on such schools:

The Poetic Brehon Lawyers Of Early Sixteenth Century Ireland by Kathyrn Simms
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/celtic/22papers/simms.pdf

Orality in Medieval Irish Narrative: An Overview by Joseph Falaky Nagy
http://journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/1ii/4_nagy.pdf

Proinsias MacCana. "Conservation and Innovation in Early Celtic Literature." Etudes celtiques, 13:61-119.

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c21/c21-368.pdf

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c23/c23-312.pdf

These cover the topic pretty well with Nagy's article being the best IMO, especially when he quotes MacCana:

"Before the sixth century Irish literature was, for all practical purposes, purely oral. From then on it had two modes of transmission, the oral and the written, and it is the interaction of these two modes which constitutes the great problem—and in some ways the peculiar interest—of Irish literary history. Other literate peoples have their oral traditions, but generally these are sub-literary, in the sense that they comprise the common fund of popular ideas and lore which are rejected or ignored by the literati. In Ireland, however, while the native men of learning, the fi lí, did not eschew the use of writing, particularly in the post-Norman period, the fact is that they inherited something of the druidic preference for the oral mode, both in their teaching and in their composition.

Consequently, the Irish oral tradition embraced the literature of greatest social prestige as well as the common lore of the mass of the people. And precisely because this literature of prestige was cultivated and conserved by an order of learned men specially trained to the task, it had its own separate existence, quite independent of writing, though not of course uninfluenced by it. (Mac Cana 1969:35)."

Searles

[odubhain]

Yes...it seems likely that Colum Cille was born into a family of Filidh, and was one of those who became a 'Christian Filidh'.
However, it was in his time that the Filidh schools began to fall into disfavor. Actually, the tale that is told about those times has it slightly different. There were too many Filidh in Ireland and what was decided was to establish schools in various locations around the country for them so they would not be roaming around so much taxing the hospitality of the chieftains. Also at this time the number of Filidh were standardized (or else everyone would want to be one due to the prizes and wealth they were given). Additionally, the Brehons were given greater responsibility for judging the law (which until then had been the responsibility of the Druids and the Filidh).

The schools of the Filidh lasted apart from the Church schools until the 17th and 18th centuries in Ireland. The role of the File rivaled that of the priest until the Irish Famine completely destroyed the start the English had made on Gaelic society. Families of Filidh still live in Ireland today.

Searles

[childofbast]

I am a member of an ADF Grove and am happy to be so but when I'm explaining who I am to someone who doesn't know me I say, "I am a member of ADF" and not "I am a Druid".


I'm with you on that. I never really tell anyone I'm a druid because I don't think I've earned that distinction. My mother, on the other hand, likes to tell people that I'm a Druid because she thinks it's more socially acceptable than "Pagan" and much simpler than "Celtic Reconstructionist" or "ADF member." lol